S4E7.5: Wicker Man

Also I come from small town Scotland and it's scarier than Summerisle. On the "rural pagan barbarity" thing I have to recommend Ronald Hutton's books like Triumph of the Moon and Blood and Mistletoe. They're often about the history of views of history. The myth of rural people thoughtlessly secretly being pagan (horny murder pagan especially) was a general belief until like the 1980s thanks to the likes of James Frazier. There was a moral panic over this kind of thing ten years before the movie. You do get gay trans neopagans these days but none of the ones I've met do morris dancing. Wicker men were described only by Julius Caesar, and only as part of an argument that Rome needed to give him resources to invade Britain - it was like Iraq's 45 minutes, 'we gotta do it to stop them doing this human sacrifice stuff'. Autism is a neurodevelopmental condition where

No one has asked for this but the palm trees aren't palm trees. They're deciduous trees that look exactly like that and you really get them all over the place in the Hebrides e.g. in Millport at Great Cumbrae

There's a bit of the "Paganism" in the movie that is very Christian coded, and it's not in the way that the Paganism presented kind of mirrors Christian (and Jewish) concepts, but in the way it presents Paganism in General. There's no real coherence to the islander's beliefs, because it's all a bunch of cherry picked ideas from very different belief systems and also from things that Christians (and other religions) accused other religions of rather than their actual practices. There's some Irish celtic practices, germanic practices, references to Aphrodite, and the wicker man itself, which wasn't a celtic tradition but something that Caesar claimed about the druids (in part of a grand tradition of claiming the "barbaric peoples" practice human sacrifice so we must kill them! But which doesn't show up archeology). There's even bits of it which seem much more revivalist, and presents that as ancient practices when in reality they were made up by bored nobles trying to socially transgress maybe only 200 years ago, and well after any practicing pre-christians had died out. There's a way in which Paganism is presented which feels very inauthentic and presents these various religions as all one thing (which the movie wants us to believe is evil), and it comes off as very modern Christian.

Another classic in the genre of „English person moves to Glasgow and decides to ‚translate‘ Scotland to other English people“ cheers, November

Abby is spitting facts in this one

Listening to this episode put me in the mood to listen to Spiritbox's Holly Roller and Eluviete's Tegernakô, so I did. While I'm in the folk metal mood I recommend Turisas's Stand Up and Fight for fans of the Devon Report and Winter Sun's Silver Leaves for people who've noticed that we all keep aging (although those two don't have much to do with Celtic paganism.)

Just watched wicker man, apparently yet another different version than any of them watched. The singing temptation scene was at the beginning of the movie where they had her sex scene and the snail thing

Abby, the whole thing about Christianity being "disproven" by God not saving you is something that Christianity has long ago contended with, answered, and integrated into itself. Faith means believing that God has a plan and whatever happens will be for the best, and if God chooses to save you then good, and if God chooses to let you die then good as well, because it's all part of the plan. Christianity has had to deal with there being no direct evidence of their beliefs for thousands of years, they have already gotten over the idea that divine intervention not seemingly happening is proof that it's bullshit. If a faithful Christian saw this happen then they would still believe that his soul was saved even if he did get killed. This sort of argument doesn't prove anything, because faith isn't working on that system of evidence based reasoning.

I'm part of Community of Australia pagans. We watch wicker man every 6 months treat the cop as the villian and cheer when he eats shit

Megalopolis reference from November, Megalopolis episode when?

Prayer is just talking to God- so if you ask God for a bike and didn't get one, sure it's fair to say it didn't work, but that doesn't necessarily mean it went unanswered, you got an answer, and the answer is no. I could ask my mom for a bike and if I don't get one I'm not gonna say asking doesn't work ever, I'm just gonna say it didn't work that time. Maybe I'll ask again later.

the recitation of psalm 23 makes me think of Sheep by Pink Floyd, which has a twist of negativaty to it

Fun to hear Abby with the fedora on

I think Abi is missing the purpose and role of prayer. This film is enjoyed by Christians because suffering is considered a part of the faith and to allow yourself to be sacrificed and not lose faith is evidence of his faith. The reward for faith and prayer are on the other side. Salvation is not an Earthly gift because this is all temporary and only through death is one delivered to their eternal salvation in heaven.

I hope you cover the Cage remake for purely selfish reasons: the director of that remake used to live in my little hometown. Our local movie theater made An Event out of it and was promoting it as a big civic-pride deal until people started seeing it. It was amazing to watch a town *deflate* in just a few days.

genuinely so glad november is part of this podcast and I don't have to hear Abby's takes on faith exclusively

Omg Battenberg! That's the name of that cake! Thank you Michael!

My favorite quote from the crew for this episode, "If you're so smart, how come you're dead?" Mic drop.

Fun fact! Yukio Mishima writes that his first orgasm was while masturbating to a painting of the martyrdom of saint Sebastian

Loved this movie and the episode, and I know everyone is posting their takes about the religious debate at the end, but I really like talking about this stuff so im going to as well. The Christian faith is unfalsifiable, this is the ultimate issue with discussing most issues with Christians (this extends to most religions, and many non religious groups as well). The end of this movie does not effectively message that the officer's prayers are futile and meaningless. As pointed out by some of the hosts, he does the proper christian thing of praying for absolution rather than praying to be saved in life, and from a Christian perspective this is completely rational and in fact beautiful. If my family saw this scene, they would take it as a reaffirmation of their faith. I see it as Abbigail (if I'm not misremembering) does, that all these people are deluding themselves. However, the movie, I think, is textually on the fence, and leaves the end up to interpretation to a point that I don't believe i can claim that my reading can be the "true" reading. This affirms my position that subtext is for cowards and every peice of art should state its positions so that people I disagree with cannot think art I belive agrees with me agrees with them. Obviously joking, I do think the discussion at the end was interesting and fruitful. Truly, another banger by the kjb crew.

I don’t agree with Abi’s total dismissal of religious faith, but I DO agree that it would probably be pretty easy to break out of a Wicker Man and that Edward Woodwardward should have tried to simply walk out of it. I’m counting this as a victory for ecumenicalism.

the thing with christianity is that if you kill them they can still count it as a win. really annoying.

I for one completely unironically support Abi's first century CE criticisms of Christianity. Feel like we wormed around them a bit with that whole 1500 years of theocratic papal domination. "If your God's so good, why'd we nail 'im to a plank of wood? Simple as." -Julian the Apostate

I need this podcast to discuss Lair of the white worm. Please.

as regards devon's quest for more hog in films, i can recommend the filmography of pier paolo p;asolini, arabian nights, medea, oedipus rex, lots of hog in those

Love this guest! Micheal really added to the film analysis

Abby, I completely agree with the bits about intercessory prayer being tested and disproven. I think the bigger issue (since the others correctly point out that he doesn't even attempt or pray for escape) is why anyone would give a shit about a god that doesn't intercede? Like even taking the comparative attitude that so many characters take in the film, "okay, so your god is real, and you think he allows all this, and you just try to be okay with that?" Where's the yelling "then to hell with you" at Crom for not doing anything tangible here in the real world?

I guess the "cavallary" will probably come eventually. Someone's gonna come looking for him, maybe they'll kill him too but there are only so many cops you can kill before people are gonna get mad. But I guess the idea is that it didn't matter for him. The fact that the law will probably come for them in a few days or weeks or months doesn't help him one bit right now. If they don't fear the law, if they don't fear God, it doesn't matter RIGHT NOW what's GOING to happen to them eventually.

[Mysterious old librarian flips page revealing a dude who looks exactly like me being burned alive in a giant wicker man] Me: is that good

God, I'm going to have to dig into this film cos it's soooo up my street. I was a huge fan of Heretic, so I think I'm going to really enjoy this one.

In the version I watched there’s no Christopher Lee in the inn scenes and the scene of the cop doing communion is interposed with him praying. And instead of the fucking scene with Willow, there’s a scene where willow is like, musically seducing the cop and dancing naked on the other side of the wall from him as he’s trying desperately to basically reach her through the wall. It’s wild that the movies we watched are so different

Abigail's ghost-of-Hitchens rant at the end was especially vexing because I entirely agree with the conclusion, but she just refuses to engage with what Christians have faith *in*. It's entirely Christian to believe that your own choices might lead you to death, and you *don't* ask God to clean up your mess, but you *do* ask for absolution and to be resurrected on Judgement Day. I think the film is saying something vaguely anti-theist in the pagan rites being confected and in Sgt. Howie's body being specifically burned, preventing resurrection. But Abigail sidesteps any actual engagement with faith to rant on the most childish "well if you're dead, skill issue" angle.

Just watched this for the first time and very much enjoyed the music! I realized part of the way through that a couple of the songs were (much) later covered by NYX / Gazelle Twin and Sneaker Pimps

I would also point out the goose as a symbol of the holy spirit (A wild goose more specifically. I think the tradition is Scottish). The presence of the holy spirit at his death.

Fantastic episode, does the film justice, and also really demonstrates the central Abigail thing where she will absolutely pull a rhetorical clown hat down over her own ears if there's an idea coming that might interfere with her ability to hustlegrind

Really hope you do sequel this one by covering the 2006 version. I’ve never been able to bring myself to watch it because I love this film so much, but do want an excuse because my uncle was mayor of the island where it was filmed, when it was filmed, so I’m curious.

I love unfairly maligned sincerely artful 70s British films.

I enjoyed abi being on her homer Simpson theology shit

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i'm so glad they did this movie. it's one of my absolute favorite movies and one of my favorite horror movies. it's so unbelievably beautiful and eerie, exactly like wandering around in a small rural town. and honestly nothing will ever top the shot where he comes over the hill and screams in absolute horror at what he sees. one of the most incredible shots in a horror movie.

Is it just me or is the big fucked up Zardoz head at the beginning of a movie code for "we had some creative differences with the studio on this one"?

Please watch Sebastiane for sexy martyrdom fun time

I listened to the 10 minute clip and have to ask; does Abigail complain about religion the whole movie? I thought the episode on 'The Wonder' was overall very good and respectful but I am spiritually inclined and I'm less interested if I'm in for nearly two hours of "all religious people are nutters".

Could someone tell me if this episode will be okay if I’m not into horror?

You do actually get palm trees on the west coast of scotland which can survive thanks to the gulf stream

Someone's probably made the comment already but the head of the wickerman falling off is interesting to me because it echoes earlier imagery of the green man. The ending is religiously ambiguous, but the cycle of death and rebirth is a constant.

As a federal employee, that Musk rant was the greatest thing Ive heard all month, thank you.

Edward Woodwoodwoodward was also the OG Equalizer. So he's 2 for 2 for terrible modern remakes of things he's acted in.

PSA: the Hand of Glory is the preserved hand of an executed man. I know this because of that one mission in Thief where you have to retrieve one from a prisoner who died after stowing it in his ass for weeks.

fuck yes, my favorite wholesome family movie.

This is a trans movie because it's about getting microaggressed constantly by people who think killing you will magically bring back their lost prosperity.

Never doubt The Worm, never doubt The Worm.

Best Valentines ever 🖤🖤🖤🖤 Thank you

I SQUEALED when I saw you were covering this! It's one of the greatest horror films of all time. It set off a lifelong fascination with pseudo-pagan cults, pre-Christian religions, and a love of folk horror. And yes, henges. Love a henge. This film just *sticks* with you - I still get shivers thinking of all the animal-headed townspeople slowly standing up, just watching... It's a testament to Edward Woodward's performance that he makes you sympathize with a priggish Christian so much. His screams at the end, from the "Oh GOD! OH JESUS CHRIST!!" to the final "JESUS!!!", you FEEL the horror of his murder, and everything just compounds that horror - from the glee in the eyes of the man the camera lingers on while he sings "Sumer is Icumen In" (fun fact: the song dates to the 13th century), to the deafening roar of the flames as the Wicker Head caves in. The only thing that couldve made this episode better would have been a "Salmon of Knowledge" mention!

God this film is so good, tied with Alien for my favourite horror. Also I want Edward Woodward in a cop uniform to break my fingers + I would totally join a cult led by Christopher Lee ❤️

Happy Valentine's day everyone

Gorgeous ep thank you all for your service 🫡

I think this is one of my favorite episodes yall have done, hell yeah

Not going to lie, first time I heard him speak I could SWEAR it was Patrick McGoohan.

thx michael for pointing out that one of the deep horrors of the movie is "some english dipshit can buy your entire island and then read the golden bough too much and get so excited he makes it *your* problem for the next ~100 years"

Why has Edward Woodward got 4 ds in his name? Because if he didn’t, his name would be pronounced Ee-wah Woo-wah. Actual joke from a book I had as a kid.

what does it mean to “disprove prayer”

This might be the most interesting episode I've ever listened to

The modern Siskel and Ebert are modern getting modern two modern thumbs mosern up.

The modern Siskel and Ebert are modern getting modern two modern thumbs mosern up.

it's a bit of a shame that the religion/atheism angle dominated discussion to such an extent because i think there is a cool political angle (which i'm noting after Sîan Ingham) to an aristocrat convincing the people of the island they need to sacrifice outsiders in order to prosper

Kingship is stored in the nips.

Originally the wicker man was a sort of pagan Gundam

You should invite Maggie Mae Fish to do the 2006 one! Also, as someone who is sort of a neopagan, I think this was a solid discussion overall. There’s some context about different kinds of reconstructionism etc. that was missing that could have helped with the theological disagreements, but you can’t have everything. Also, I guess maybe some people might take umbrage with Abby’s New Atheist hardline, but within the context of the film, nothing she says is unreasonable or bigoted. So yeah, good episode.

Scotland mentioned brackets bad 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Wickerman Episode on the day Yellowjackets Season 3 premieres, it's social critique via cannibalism hour

Hello to the barmaid.

Not the first time different versions have been watched and it's improved the show

Love this film.

Eating so good today, Bonds

We used to make 90 minute movies, RETVRN to that.

Oh hell yeah lfg

This was partly filmed around my hometown! We watch it every Halloween and point out the old shopfronts and tje streets. Yaaaaay!

Legit excited for this one!

Awww this movie brings back memories of my childhood; building wickermen for candlemass & terrifying the Romans

let's go this is my favourite movie