S3E21.5: The Birdcage

One of the genius things this movie does is have both families doing a performance of a kind. Yes, Val's family is pretending to be straight, but Barbara's family is also pretending to be a morally upstanding family with no baggage. The whole reason they go to the dinner is a PR move to seem wholesome after the other Senator's death. Hackman even has a line on the political show where he says "morality is political."

I know it's a couple of years on - I love this movie I wanted a relisten for nostalgia - but I do think that Armand's an asshole because he's the guy running the club. He's absolutely a dick, but he also clearly feels like he's the only person in the club who takes things seriously, and textually we don't see a *huge* amount of evidence that stuff gets done without him. His relationship with Albert is so beautifully portrayed because it's so clearly a flawed yet loving relationship and feels *so* representative of its era. Also, Hank Azaria's family background is oddly complicated and you could make an argument he would be allowed to do both of Agador's accents (preferably better) because he grew up speaking Ladino and Spanish, and his dad's family are Greek Sephardic Jews. I think him not doing Apu's fair game and he has done a lot of stuff over the line, but this is remarkably within the realm of acceptability for such an extra performance with outrageous accents.

Depictions of gay people doing off depictions of what straight people are like is a lot of fun, like when Andre Braugher's Captain Holt from Brooklyn 99 (I know it's copaganda but I love Andre Braugher enough to muddle through) who is an autistic gay man has to play a neurotypical het, he just skewers that demo, lol. He talks about how he loves philandering with his mistress because she has such heavy breasts. Take that, NT straights!

Nathan Lane is so precious and lovable in this movie.

Hugh Jackman, it's gotta be Hugh Jackman

Thank you for this episode, I found the discussion on Judith Butler and the compulsion to kill all queer thoughts in order to maintain macho cis-het compliance informative, and the detailed reading of the nuances of Nathan Lanes character illuminating.

Absolutely loved this one! I was laughing so hard I nearly went off the road while driving! It felt especially poignant hearing your conclusion about the film advocating queer people being able to be part of the family and thus society right as I was arriving at a family event! Wonderful episode!

When yall were talking about the flat lifeless story the politician was telling and how people suppress and kill the queer parts of themselves to perform conservative politics I couldn't help but think of the news clip I saw recently where JD Vance couldn't even give an answer about what makes him smile. It was momentarily hilarious but in the way that gives way to a sort of creeping sadness at how depressing that is

I saw the French version of this first and found that to be better as the Holywood verson was to much probably due to Williams being in it and doing what he does best.

For the life of me, I can’t remember if I saw this version, the French film version, or a theater version.

I watched the movie after listening to this episode, and honestly I think that John Wayne walk was accurate, and the "I just didn't realize John Wayne walked like that" is unironic

I enjoyed this episode. I saw the Birdcage when it came out in theaters. Sad to think it's faded into obscurity that quickly

My closest family growing up were hotel restaurant folk and consequently a lot of the people who were around us for events were this old school queer. Watching this movie with my mum was so nostalgic. Hearing it again on my fav podcast is this all over again.

This is one of my all time favorite movies and I'm so glad y'all watched it 💖 Also my family and I have always referred to Nathan Lane's drag character in the dinner scene as Barbara Bush drag.

I’m 47, nonbinary and watched this movie a dozen times as a teenager. So glad you covered it. As a kid I didn’t even know what attracted me to it so much. Being a queer wasn’t an option in my world but there I was.

Last comment, I swear! Abigail I am really glad you brought up your experience watching the speech Gene Hackman's character about "purple mountains majesty." I always really liked that moment, because itnis the only moment where you see his character be a bit wistful and temporarily moved by something outside himself. Your respose to it made me think, as a cishet gal, that maybe what I was watching was this character's ONLY access to beauty. Not sure I fully articulated what I mean, but basically it feels like you took my glasses and gave them a cleaning because there was a smudge and now I read the scene differently 😆

I think about Gene Hackman's delivery of "I feel like I'm insane" all the time. It's like part of my internal lexicon.

I'm in my mid 30s and grew up watching this movie a ton, so I'm glad y'all are doing this. Even though parts of it are dated or problematic, it was one of the best movies we had because it was relatively mainstream and humanized us. I cannot tell you how scary it was to be openly gay in the 90s. We were okay to be portrayed in film and TV as long as it was a comedy where our existence was a total joke or we were dying of AIDS or violence. This movie at least shows us as people with feelings about our coming out without it involving violence. Like, the thing that prompted Nathan Lane to come out was the murder of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming.

Glad to see ya do an ep. on “Birdcage.” I was a queen in a performance of “La Cage” at our small community theater, and exited to hear Abi’s analysis of the Americanized version.

On a completely different note, it took watch number 20-something of this film to realize Nathan Lane was making a dick joke in the line, "With one, tiny difference....well, maybe not tiny."

First saw this when it was released. Watched it again with my daughter before listening to the episode. Glad you enjoyed it as much as we did!

Great episode, and great movie! Sat down to watch it with my partner and we enjoyed it

Wonderful episode. The only reason I’m sad is that I’m now all caught up and I can’t binge the show at work anymore. I have to wait until Thursday like everyone else.

not to nonstop post but I’m rewatching this movie and I can’t get over how perfectly ill-fitting Alfred/Armand/Agadar’s suits are, like all three are too big, too tight or obvious made from thrift store separates , their outfits literally don’t suit them

Also a good detail is that Senator Keely is editing his memoirs when the news comes out about Jackson - also I don’t know if British viewers would get this but he has the most WASP Connecticut house imaginable - also is wife with the good voice is Diane Weist, a great WASP of the US stage who was the wicked witch in the seventh kingdom

I cannot believe they glossed over the "Fosse Fosse Fosse, Martha Graham Martha Graham, or Twyla Twyla Twyla" bit. A scene which contains a very subtle joke that is one of my favourites. Because the Gum Chewing Himbo asks "So what do I do? Just stand there like a piece of meat." And Armand replies "No, you do an eclectic celebration of a dance!" and then demonstrates a series of over the top dance moves in the style of several famous contemporary choreographers, and then turns back to the GCH and finishes "But you keep it all inside." Which ultimately boils down to, "Yes, just stand there."

Also, I am convinced, based on my interactions with hysteric rich boomers of all genders and sexualities, that they’ve had the Pirin treatment by at least one servant growing up. They all have a weird relationship to OTC meds.

The greatest compliment I (an Assigned Jester At Birth trans man) have ever received was while watching this flick with the squad. My bestie looks at me and tells me that he watched it alone recently and couldn’t tell why Armand (Robin Williams) was so familiar—and he points at Armand in full hairy little glory and goes “He’s you!” This film is so important to me fam

This is my favourite film, I watched it to death in the 90s and I still love it. For pride season films I recommend watching Jeffrey it's got sir Patrick Stewart as one of the main characters. As an older queer trans guy this film was one of only a few films that I had access to as a young confused person and it has a special place in my heart. Thank you for including this in your show💜

Amazing movie. I've spent most of my life not knowing how to dress, then I saw Robin Williams' fits in this and was like "that's it. That's what I want to look like". Changed my life

Oh wow, I think I might need to go watch this now

Learnt that Robin Williams was originally cast as Albert with Steve Martin as Armand and I just cannot imagine them having that same chemistry

took me a solid 10 minutes before realising this is La Cage Aux Folles! I want to rewatch the 1978 version with adult eyes now.

You guys watched a DELIGHTFUL film this time around. Glad you enjoyed it.

Since La Cage aux Folles 2 is a French espionage farce is it technically a Eurospy?

It would be interesting to compare the original french film version. I haven't seen it since I was about 10 but it lingers in my memory. I also love that my mum showed me la cage aux folles when I was a kid.

The double dragon eps are always special (no matter which pairing). This one was absolutely lovely - you describe your lived experience so articulately.

Oh I hope November got to watch it iirc she said she never did see it

No November means no mention of the French original :(((

I've only ever seen the original. I'll have to check this one out!

I’ve been trying to remember when I first saw La Cage aux Folles. I must have been young. I actually saw La Cage aux Folles 2 first, so my best guess is I was around 12 years old. I remember loving La Cage aux Folles, and I remember having very mixed feelings about the “updates” that were planned for the American remake. When I finally saw The Birdcage, I was baffled. I think most of the changes were because La Cage aux Folles was a product of the 1970s, so there was a lot that wouldn’t quite make sense to American audiences in the 1990s. I mean, try to explain male distance and emotional walls to the kids today, and they’ll give you blank stares. Devon is a sweet, sweet child of the modern era with those comments about talking to one’s partner. Ah, the 1970s were such a different time. All of which is a very long-winded way of saying if you want to understand why Albert is so understandably and justifiably upset with Armand, you’ve got to watch La Cage aux Folles because they cut that whole insanely important character motivation out of The Birdcage. Without it, Albert just seems like an irrational lunatic rather than an understandably upset partner. I guess they cut it because a 1990s audience is far more likely to turn on Armand rather than shrug understanding that emotional distance and walls were really tough on men in the 1970s. The scene where Armand is showing Albert the documents is so wonderfully beautiful and sweet because Armand is really, really trying to get through those walls and show Albert how much he loves him. The context and understanding of character is entirely absent from The Birdcage. Okay, before anyone tries to hunt down a copy of La Cage aux Folles, I think I need to throw up a hate crime trigger warning because the movie does not shy away from how Armand (Renalto) and Albert (Albin) were treated by the general public.

You guys should really check out the musical version of this. It’s great.

I'm sorry to disagree with the wonderful pod hosts, but this is a Sorkin ass movie. It spends so much time with the gays only to opine that "the bigots and the gays are the same, don't you think? "

really appreciate this coming up in feed, haven't rewatched this in ages. really needed to.

There was no mention at any point that this is an American remake?

for some reason im always driving alone on twisty mountain roads when I listen to you all and you make it much less scary! love The Birdcage love listening to you both enjoying it, thanks 4 the pod 🫶

I genuinely think the "*pause* I just never knew John Wayne Walked like that" is one of the best delivered comedic lines in film history.

I remember when Philadelphia came out and it was a huge and possibly career threatening deal the Tom Hanks was playing a gay man. Bonkers shit, I tell you what

“You’re going to the cemetery with your toothbrush. How Egyptian.”

Bear robin Williams isn't something that I knew I needed in my life.

I love this movie, can’t wait to listen. Also, I’m always reminded of what a different time it was cause Nathan Lane didn’t come out until *three years after* this movie.

Love this movie!

SO glad you watched this! This film is hands down among my favs. I think it is a perfect comedy and no one in the ensemble cast is wasted. Everyone's talent is on display. Curious how people feel about the wedding scene at the end? In all honestly, I forget that the film ends on the wedding; in my head, it ends with Gene Hackman in the car being told, "Not on your life!" I was talking with a friend of a friend about this film, and they said the wedding at the end made them dislike the film. They felt it was either an outdated or unrealistic portrayal of families coming together.

"You can't appease someone who doesn't like you epistemologically". Holy Shit, Dev, that is the most succinct way I've ever heard someone put this. Thank you so much for this line!

One of the things thats most special about this film is Albert and Armond are both older men who have already done all the messy parts. They’re just living their lives! It’s rare to see that even now! This was a real moment for me when I saw it as a kid

Thank you for the episode! If I can put Monkey Man forward, I think you might have a good time with the film.

Nathan Lane's character's line onstage about whether she is something to be admired/wanted or a punch line felt to me like the heart of this movie in a way. Given the release timeframe I can't help but wonder if this film was only greenlit due to the zany "world's collide" aspect of many comedies of the time, but the performers lend so much soul to it that it became much more than perhaps was intended at the top. In any case, a fantastic film.

Okay I cannot fucking wait for next week. I absolutely love Cruising.

Gene Hackman? Are you sure it wasn't Robert DeNiro?

This was such a beautiful episode and movie

I’m profoundly glad and a bit surprised to hear you watched this for the first time. It’s a gem, and if it’s been lost, thank you for carrying it forward for new generations. An Armand taught me Portuguese, and I’m so glad for the glimpses of him I see in Robin’s performance.

They fear his Chuatamaleness.

One of my favorites, so glad y’all liked it. Hope November checks it out🧡

Had to stop halfway through to go watch this movie, so glad I did!

kill the bond inside your head!!!!! my family may be falling apart but at least I have the cruising episode to look forward to

So glad y'all enjoyed this one. Have loved it since it was first released.

This is a sort of off topic but, I think this is a safe space for me to bring it up thanks to Dev and Abi talking about killing the gay inside you. I spent the first 59 years of my life ignoring being bi. I don't think I completely killed the being queer part of myself but I buried it deeply. Since I grew up in the sixties and seventies there weren't many visible roll models for queerness. I'm just making my way in the world in way that feels comfortable to me. I've also gotten to point in my life where IDGAF what people think of me. Anyway, happy Pride you beautiful people.

Agador is one of the top 10 supporting characters of all time.

Pride mini-season! the birdcage was the first queer movie I ever saw and it remains so dear to my heart

This is the timeless combo, without a “November” in it.

Theres a straight audience?!

27:25 "the presumed straight listeners" of this podcast? Lol. Lmao even

*points* Devon called the listeners chat.

I’ve accepted that a certain kind of gay man, myself included, just start dressing like Armand once they get close to 40 - you’re trying to split the difference between aloha shirt middle age and making sure everyone knows you’re gay- lots of chunky metallics and slip on leather shoes

Love this film so much!!!

Gonna listen to this episode as I start the elden ring DLC tomorrow morning. wish me luck all

oh no oh shit I am prepping for complicated Robin Williams tears

Yaaay!!!