UNCUT - The Maquis Part 2 (DS9 S2E21) | Star Trek Journey 319

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1

I don't understand how these guys can remember episode titles, directors, actors and still completely miss key plot points in the episode.

I think you guys missed that Quark's speech gets the Vulcan to reveal her information. He does 'flip' her in that sense at least. The very next scene they have information that she provided and are discussing it.

Super Surprised you guys where not aware of earth being a utopian paradise

A lot of people love this two parter, but I think it’s just ok. B for me

The first two parter in trek where part 2 wasn’t a disappointment on some level. Viewed as one story, a nearly two hour episode, it would still be strong. They did get the list from Quark; odo was reading it to them in OPs. I loved the way Quark looks at Peace asa business transaction. I wondered if there was a cut scene showing that Quark would be let off if he got info from the Vulcan. I assumed he was put in with her to get the info

The Maquis just don't make any sense to me, all former federation citizens who chose to leave paradise to colonise some uninhabited random planets that happened to end up near territory of a new enemy who are making it intolerable to live there but they could all go back to live in paradise tomorrow the federation could use technology to literally cut and paste the settlements they have built on these contested planets and set them up on a new planet that is not in violently contested territory, do we forget about replicators and transporters and all the rest of it? What possible reason do these people have for choosing to stay on these planets so badly? They weren't born there, anything they built could be easily replicated, we aren't shown any of there allegedly impressive achievements out here anyway? And what is the end goal? They're going to claim this random wee spot of space directly in between federation and cardassian territory and everything will be hunky dory? If they renounce federation citizenship they would have no right to their protection at all and would be conquered by the cardassians within minutes, NOTHING ABOUT THIS MAKES ANY SENSE?!?!?

This is where episode evaluation might need to evolve. From this point forward, DS9 is not a "wrap everything up at the end of each episode" kind of show. This is now serialized Trek. While there are still a number of stand-alone episodes and some multi-part episodes, many will leave a lot of things open-ended for longer arcs.

They've described the utopia of earth going back. to TOS its the whole basis of Trek

So do the Ferengi get te most improved alien award?

The whole 2 parter was a big setup for what's coming

53:50 Come on, man!

So when Dukat threatened to destroy the Xepolite ship, he got them to surrender their cargo and sign a confession detailing all they knew about the operation, including who in central command actually arranged the shipments. Combining that blackmail material with personally taking part in the defense of a Cardassian colony, and he had all the leverage he needed to make central command back down. I don't think Dukat had any real objection to arming the colonists, he was just pissed they left him out of it, so he agreed to help Sisko derail their plans to get back at them. "They never bothered to tell me" and "oh well, too late for that" make it pretty clear he's fine with crossing just about any line if it benefits him. I always found Casey's acting particularly bad in the Maquis fighter. The bit where he talks to Sisko is OK, but the rest is really bad. Brooks on the other hand delivers one of his best performances to date. Not just his saints in paradise speech, but pretty much all his scenes with Dukat as well. Alaimo too. One of the best things about this one was elevating Dukat above cameo status. His reaction to learning about being backstabbed is priceless. While it's maybe not the biggest thing, I also find the whole battle very underwhelming. This is an issue DS9 has with these expeditionary kinds of stories. Runabouts are essentially larger and somewhat more capable shuttles, but they can only do so much, so the scale of the threat needs to be dialed back. I appreciate some of the camera work during the battle, but it kind of felt like a kid smashing 2 of his toy fighter jets together. It's just hard to take it seriously. I think as a whole the 2 parter gets a B+, and it's still toward the bottom of the list of DS9 2 parters IMO

Yay! Loved watching Quark flip a Vulcan.

The conversation with the Vulcan in prison led her to tell Sisko info on how many ships they had, all the equipment they were trying to buy and when they were going to attack the Cardassian settlers. Therefore, Quark ferengi-splaining was crucial in that she was flipped.

Ferengi Logic was the highlight of the season for me.

As has been pointed out in the comments, several of the questions you guys have were indeed covered and answered in the episode. Still, I'm glad you guys enjoyed this. The Maquis is not S tier for me, but I would definitely have to grade it somewhere around A- It only gets better from here.

The promo that Sisko cut has a meta element to it. The showrunner, Ira Steven Behr, felt it was important to drive home that the world of DS9 is much more gray then the romanticized version of the Federation we’ve been shown in TOS and TNG: "Sisko's speech in this episode was the beginning of our really starting to question some of the basic tenets of Star Trek philosophy."

@53:20 lol. Quark literally got her to confess the information.

After the conversation between Quark and Sakonna (the Vulcan), she came forth with information to Sisko, that without that conversation she would not have. And Sisko & Dukat proceeded based on that information, and ultimately the situation was descalated for the present -- so that near-future negotiations could start. So Quark's and Sakonna's conversation was was indeed relevant and led to at least short-term peace, and maybe a longer-term resolution.

Y'all completely missed that Quark DID flip the Vulcan. She revealed the target for the Maquis attack. They also say that she spilled that the Maquis only had 2 ships.

I always thought that Cal destroying his uniform was a nice contrast to Sisko refusing to take his off under torture.

It does kind of feel like they didn't want to conclude anything. This 2 parter feels very much like just a big setup to the Maquis as a new faction in the Star Trek universe.

Cal taking back the uniform and then working for the Maquis behind Sisko's back might have led to an explosive finish to this situation down the line. I could see Dukat smugly telling Sisko. "I told you so."

Didn't remember a thing. I didn't and still don't care for it. It's a DS9 episode I guess. Alaimo's acting is good. Casey's acting is not. Big things happen, but for some reason it doesn't do anything for me. Not impressed. Nothing more to add. Shrug.

Going forward, DS9 requires much more of a commitment of attention from its audience than TNG ever did. For the most part, that is. That’s all that can be said without spoilers.

Quark did help stop it, he got the Vulcan to give sisko the information on the attack, it was explained in the scene in ops after their conversation, but you were talking over the scene. (I know you need to talk for the reaction, just helping you to see how it linked in)

You'd shoot an unarmed Maquis Raider? Hudson's ship's weapons systems are disabled. Maybe it's Josh and Alex who have gone 'grey'?

Not as strong as Pt 1 but still a solid episode. Dukat and Sisko are great but the ending is anticlimactic.

The big problem with the episode is that by design it all leads up to everything stuck in a holding pattern rather than a satisfying climax. The reasons for that kind of resolution are sound, but it can't help but be anti-climatic. Still there's so many individual good scenes and it's by far the best character development for Sisko up to this point in the series so it's a solid B+ for me.

I just read that the Bolians were named after Cliff Bole.

You were talking over the lines. Quark, got Sakona to reveal they were planning an attack on the weapons depot -- she didn't know where (that's the following scene where Dukat says he still has friends at central command). Without Quark, Sakona wouldn't have broken.

Dukat was lied to by his people, left out of the loop, left to rot to take the fall for something he wasn't responsible for, didn't support, and had actively worked to prevent. And then, he betrayed the intentions of his government by going rogue to undermine their covert position to arm their colonists. What a goddamn chad. He may have been the devil on Sisko's shoulder, but he was a saint to follow his morality in choosing to pursue the right ends from start to finish when he had every incentive at every turn to do otherwise. #NotAllCardassians

Sisko's speech hits hard! The line "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" has stayed with me for a long time, I'm reminded of it way too often.

I can't tell which I like most, Sisko's "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" speech, or Quark's "Acquisition of Peace" sermon

In Part 2, the actor playing Cal REALLY phones it in. I think he’s reading off cue cards a lot of the time—it distracts me every time I see this one. Something’s really off.

Hudson is not Sisko's best friend. He WAS at the Academy. Yes, they stayed a while in contact afterwards as long they both had their wives (Lederhosen story). But it's been years since Calvin and Ben saw each other in person and they clearly had drifted apart on many levels in the meantime. Sometimes you stick to soneone from the past more than from the present. When the past was better and the future seemed bright. And this is the case for both men.

NO- she (the viulcan) reveals the Maquis target. You guys must have missed some lines. I think you said "god for quark teaching logic to a vulcan" and spoke over the line when it cuts to her telling Sisko the Maquis target she bought all the weapons for the imminent attack. Then Dukat uses his sources to reveal where the weapons depot is.... in a civilian area its being hidden in. I feel like maybe this is one you guys should rewatch because you definitely missed some plot details and I think misunderstood some things.

What you missed was stopping the Maquis was the political leverage Dukat needed to have his position restored and the only "proof of non guilt" that can be done in Cardassia. Make the claim that threw you impossible. Dukat got all the evidence he needed with the confession to embarrass the central command. That was his motivation as soon as he realized he has been thrown under the bus for something he knew nothing about. Dukat accomplished his mission and he wanted to get credit for preventing a civilain attack and was hoping to kill a the maquis who attempted the mission. He got what he wanted

The restraint is because they both want to convert the other.

you're confusing respect with horror. She already "respects: the threat he is and that's all shes every going to respect him.

You didn't like the Sisko speech sort of stating the ethos of what DS9 wanted to be. An explanation of the "badmiral" phenomenon. And a fundamental critique of Roddenberry;s later vision. Earth (and Full Federation Member states) are post-scarcity utopias, but its easy to act like a utopian in utopia but how do you fight for and maintain those values away from the Federation when you have to deal with ugly, complex situations and "conventional" meaning approaches writers have used before successfully don't work here, and how to fight for those values situations are more morally complex with conflicting interests and situations that can neither be quicky resolved or ignored for their potential consequences.

In fact, I think the whole reason they introduced a new villain was because Canon (continuity) couldn't have allowed O'Brien to have a captain in a former recen war because it has been established the Federation had not had any major wars. So the Cardassians were created as a villian who would be a bit less advanced then the Federation but unigue and creepy in their own way which the actors and makeup hit on. Later, when they wanted to do Ro's backstory, they originally had the thought of it beking a Romulan occupation but they felt the Romulans had already been used tpo mcch, and someone apparently recalled "Hey! Remember the Cardassians! They would be perfect to use again here. It's interesting how small, seemingly insignificant writing changes at the time opened up this huge narrative possibility that hadn't been explored to death.

I was a bit surprised you were confused about the cardassian federation war because thats a core part of Chief"s defining character things. He was in the first appearance of Gul Macet, who set the role of what the Cardassians would be, I asked at the time what you thought the chances were the whole thing with the subordinate who was caught accessing a computer panel and when he tries to defend himself Macet says "what were you doing anywhere near there computers?" was actually a work by the Cardassians. I feel like Picard's "Oh Macet" stands so much powerfully in hindsight after Macet said he was glad under lock and key. He calls him on the bullshit. Says Maxwell (the renegade captain, Chief' s former Captain under the war. Macet asks him why he didn't board the ships. Picard says "Because then we would not be having this pleasant conversation. Tell your leaders we're watching. and we're ready." Turns back on him. I feel like this suggests that maybe Macet's "role" as the moderate is because they are trying work Picard into the kind of offcier on the other side he could come to an understanding with. But Picard wasn't fooled for a minute. I think with that context it's definitely open ended whether its a work, and in hindsight we now have Dukat as THE Cardassian, a charming, almost gleefucl charming pyschotic dictator/ mass murderer that is also a sociopathc opportunist and the audience knowing all this and being charmed by him as he oozes menace and smug self-righteousness and delusional grandiosity... played so well. The subtle eye looks between Dukat and Kira. Dukat was smiling bot his eyes were predatory. Kira was looking at him with a mixture of unreserved hatred, disgust, and clarity and can't understand why anyone would fall for his schtick. Saying Monstrous things almost as a self parody to then cover up the reality of the actual monstrous things he'd done and Kira just sees the most vile, disgusting, evil person ever, a Satan of the Occupation- where as we are learning from verbal clues and numbers seems to be referring to his specific Overseeing as when the ten million Bajoran death last phase of the occupation. The number 10 million for a 40-60 year occupation (assuming the first 20 years were still the (Cardassians claim to be helping" vs 40 years of "It is obviously to everyone that we are occupied).. isnt that much for a planet wide occupation when considering comparative numbers. The Nazis, over the course of about a three year period killed 10 to 14 milion people. There is no way the Occupation but are more like the "there were harsh conditions at labor camps, it was war, people died, but no atrocities, no." 10 milion can only possiblt refer to Dukat's tenure to be meaningful. OK off tangent, since Akaimo was the genesis of the Cardassians, do you know think Macet (cousin of dukat) was doing a work with the discipline incident or do you think its on it's face what happened.

"I'd be afraid to leave Dukat alone on the station." "What would he do?" Sisko returns and DS9 is a forced labor camp again and all his friends are undergoing brutal specific tortures. "Dukat, I leave alone for a god damn moment..." "Commander, have you ever seen a woman forced to defend her child from the starving ravenous neighbors and think, my, what a job well done. It demonstrates the very neccissity of our harsh methods to ensure the order among vicims! Can't you see the beauty of what was brought to them in that Famine we forced on their poor, backward world" "Dukat- I may. (cadence) Have to seriously. (cadence) NOT be the first Cardassian I always call just because I know you."

the reason Bashir was there was because they were trying to find Dukat and they didnt know what condition he'd be in after being prisoner of the Maquis so he might have needed the services of a doctor.

nice how when they stun people they never worry they might fall and crack their skull

Quark not only gave them the list of weapons to sell that allowed our guys the info to determine what kind of attack the Maquis were mounting (also that they only had two ships capable of mounting those weapons, not that those were all the ships they had) but he also managed to turn Sakona into giving up information about the attack. That's probably why he's not rotting in a cell. To be fair, the episode does a thing where it sets up a character turn, then cuts to the aftermath of that turn where our other characters have the information resulting from that turn, but we just never saw that scene itself. Just the lead up and aftermath. Also liked how non-descriptly Sisko is able to work things out: by trying to blame a kidnapped Dukat, that Legate is basically admitting Central Command's guilt by the blatant attempt to shift it. I figure Dukat participating in the defence of an attack on a civilian target earned him some clout back home, plus the fact he knows people in Central Command were smuggling weapons and he has the proof gives him leverage to blackmail his way into good graces.

I’m kind of surprised nobody pointed out that John Schuck, who played legate parn also played the Klingon ambassador in Star Trek iv the voyage home and Star Trek vi the undiscovered country

When you guys finish DS9 you have to watch the documentary What we left behind. Sorry I know that’s like years down the road I just happened to think of it!

This two parter is a building block for a larger story arc. And that story arc will be the building block for an even larger story. And so on. DS9 is the first Star Trek series to eschew fully episodic tales. Even the stand-alones moving forward will contain elements addressing larger overarching stories.

Here’s another deep cut. The Xepolite trader, Drofo Awa, was played by famed voice actor Michael Bell who also played Groppler Zorn - the slimy head of Farpoint Station in Encounter at Farpoint. If you go back to his scene in this episode, you’ll recognize his voice.

Man, watching all the episodes in order is blowing my mind. I wished they’d done more crossover plots in season 1! Can’t wait until the two finales…

The Lacepians sign the confession that they were being supplied by the Central command. So that's why Ducat can go back to Cardassia.

The conversation with Sokona is why they knew about their plan to attack the depot. It wasn't pointless, she told them about the plan after Quark's convincing.

I like that moment when Cal vaporizes his uniform. When he draws his phaser, Sisko reaches for his. After he fires, Cal gives Sisko a "come on, man" look. I like that no matter what the Maquis is about to do, Cal doesn't consider Sisko his enemy.

7:55 If your people are being attacked with impunity, and your government refuses to respond in a meaningful way, talk does not always resolve a situation when one side is only interested in dominance and aggression, which the Cardassians, by their very culture are, then you need a show of force. Not violence per se, but a demonstration of strength. Think of how Jellico handled his negotiations with the Cardassians, he completely played them... But he had to show a mean face and use some measure of force to do it. Star Trek is very much anti terrorist, unless it's Kira, then they'll give a little room to maneuver, but very often they paint the idea in general with a very broad and shallow brush. Sometimes, you have to use those kind of tactics when you're the underdog. The question is what the political motivations are. Trying to cut off Cardassian weapon supplies to their colonies to prevent your own people from being hurt? Yeah, that's justified. 47:55 I can tell you the issue. They had enough for a part and a half, and they had to stretch the second part to a full episode. The pay off wasn't quite what it needed to be for the full second half. Also, to your surprise about Sisko calling Earth paradise. This is what Gene Roddenberry told Frakes when he was being cast as Riker. "In the 24th Century there will be no hunger, and there will be no greed, and all the children will know how to read." That's Earth. Everyone is educated, there is no disease, no cash currency, nobody wants for anything. It's a planet of artisans and... Frankly, as we would understand the term, decadence. There's no way it would work with humans being who we are, because we are so prone to indulgence. A Star Trek world would probably destroy us.

I assume when Bashir had time alone with the guards, he was just hitting on them and getting shut down as usual. 😏

I agree with the assessment. It feels like it all kind of just slows down once part 2 kicks in. Cal shows up, stuns them and leaves. Sisko meets with the colonists and Cal shows up, and leaves.

Bit of a dip compared to part 1, but genuinely a great episode. Dukat / Sisko amazing. Quark vs Sakona was great to see too. Overall though, the whole wasn't as good as the sum of its parts.

Not to be the "Umm...actually guy" (believe me, I hate me right now), but Quark DID get Sakonna to turn. I mean, she DID reveal that the plan was to attack the weapons depot, she just didn't know where. But she DID end up talking.

LETS GOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

It's hard to get too upset with Cal Hudson, He did give a passing grade in History Class to, Bill and Ted.

It is funny to think that while Sisko was having the confrontation with Hudson, Quark was chatting to Riker about vouchers🤷‍♂️ And then immediately arrested.

DS9 does multi parters better than TNG I think, sure part 1 is better but as a whole i really like this story. It has some great scenes and I like the open ending

The Cardassians settlers, killing Federation colonists, "Remember the Cant! I mean Bok'nor!"

I think the implication was that after Quark's conversation with the Vulcan, she's the one who told them what the target of the Maquis attack was going to be. Since it cuts from that to Sisko et al. having that new information.

Bought this early because I felt like watching DS9 and couldn't be fucked waiting a day. Don't trust me with money.

This is one of Star Trek's best 2 parters. One of the best conclusions to a two parter also. This is by far Avery Brooks best performance so far and he just gets better from here. Also Marc Alaimo is fantastic as always. The foundation this episode lays for the future of DS9 is so strong it never fails to amaze me when I watch it. When I first watched it in 1994 at 11 years old this was the episode that really turned me into a fan of this show especially with how well it was crossing over with TNG in its back half. God I love this show.

Watching this episode again, I think it was the right dramatic move for Sisko to let Cal go. It makes the statement that Sisko Values Friendship More Than the Rules, which — coupled with his rant about saints in paradise — helps define him as a guy who's not afraid to get his hands dirty. I doubt I need to come out and say that we will see that character trait come back again.

John Schuck, the Cardassian Legate Parn, also played a Klingon Ambassador in Star Trek IV and VI.