S4E27.5: The Night Porter

This movie is such a wild watch while we're living trough another holocaust

Fallen way behind so I'm just getting to this now - have you ever read Erase/Record/Play by John M. Ford? A lot of the themes reminded me really strongly of it, although it was more intellectual and and sexless.

Personally, I think it’s high time we invented Psychoanalysis 2. Like, what do the same basic structures and concepts look like, as filtered through the subjective experience of a woman, or a queer person, or a POC? Like, from my admittedly extremely surface level understanding I feel like there’s stuff there that’s salvageable, the problem is relying on inaccurate and bigoted “maps” of the non- white/male psychosexual landscape.

It took some months for me to be able to listen to this. Because of what's happening with America rn, but all I could think throughout is that at least nobody's gonna paperclip trump's people

Would you ever consider reviewing The Servant (1963)? It’s another excellent Bogarde movie and I’d be willing to pay real money/shed real blood to hear your thoughts

Desperate for you guys to do THE SERVANT, the nastiest most homoerotic (!) dirk bogarde movie with completely insane class politics

Of everything in this episode "trauma gooning" is going to be the phrase that slips out in mixed company and gets me taken off of someone's holiday card list.

High potential for out of context Dev quotes on this one, blimey. Very fearless of you.

Towards the end some of the discussion made me remember listening to a lecture from a researcher on queer victims of the Holocaust and making the argument that queer people other than gay men were explicitly targeted for being queer but also touching on ‘relationships’ (for lack of a better word) between prisoners and guards. It was very interesting but very complicated. I believe she was later sued by one of her subject’s family- not for saying she the woman was gay but for saying she had a relationship with a concentration camp guard. Not sure what happened to the research after that to be quite honest. This film feels similar in that it’s very interesting and complicated regarding how and if to portray these aspects of history and at the same time I can understand why some people would be very upset by it.

I'm also upset about gay underscore rat

Another great episode, this time for a film I will never watch. [Edit: I was there all along must have been too busy "working "]

This does really make me want to hear you cover Apt Pupil, which isn't exactly a holocaust movie but IS about a Nazi

They are calling it "the most safe to quote out of context episode yet". Srsly though good episode on something i will never watch, quite thoughtful discussion. Also, I'm sorry, but that was an overly specific denial in the end there from Abigail.

I am glad you all looked at this movie, one I probably will not watch. I'll be turning it over in my head for a bit. I think there is something you said about The Card Counter when you reviewed it that it was an interesting piece of art and commentary on an evil man's guilt. You closed it by saying something along the line of "I hope nobody who was ever a victim of Gitmo or Abu Ghraib ever has the chance of seeing this." I should think that while this movie perhaps depicts something that is *true* to human nature, I should hope no victim of the holocaust ever sees this.

This was a fun episode. I don't think I will ever watch this movie mostly because having listened to this episode I feel like I don't need to and I don't think I'd enjoy it but I get to have the thought provoking thoughts by proxy. Thank you for making this.

For heist season, I'd recommend "Firefox" from 1982.

I am SO EXCITED for die hard 4

Religion season changed so gradually into Nazi season I barely even noticed.

Might I suggest Tom of Finland (2017) as an interesting film about masculinity, sexuality, and sexualisatiion of the Nazis as a desperate man in Finland. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5226984/

Damn this level of sexualisation of trauma makes Una (2016) that I watched the other night look tame

Absolutely love this episode

Absolutely love this movie but it is a movie that you do have to force other people to watch I find. But when they finally get through it's actually like well I was actually pretty good and I'm like yeah.

This needs a trigger warning for people named Max. I'm fine with the content, but having November say 'Max is a Nazi Pedophile' and 'Max is getting off on this' started to feel weird

This is the kind of astute analysis I LOVE about KJB! This movie was so deeply upsetting when I watched it years ago, but I didn't find it revolting or insulting. I'm Jewish and I'm insulted by the misuse of the Holocaust to make schmaltzy crap like Boy in the Striped Pajamas, or worse - as an excuse for another genocide - but not this. I think The Night Porter is a pretty deft portrayal of people shattered by trauma that is literally unspeakable; how would Lucia ever confide all this to a therapist? I can't imagine at the time there would be therapists equipped to handle such a story. People process trauma, or fail to process it, in very fucked-up ways. The marketing of the film probably did it a disservice, because between the performances of the two leads and the truly fascinating background of the director, I felt like the material was handled as well as it could have been. It's just unfortunate that many people were unable to stomach or even grasp what the film was trying to say.

I feel like the thesis being presented here is that indulging in your sexualized trauma is ultimately self-destructive and unsustainable, and will inevitably lead towards death.

Uncle boonmee for religion season

I do have respect for an actor who takes on a difficult role like a Nazi or a victim of horrible abuse. That must be a bit hard on a person.

I definitely agree that the film is at least being honest in depicting that essentially sadistic and sexual side of Nazism that is always there but which everyone tries to ignore. Max is at least more honest about why someone would run a concentration camp.

I really don't understand the criticism of psychoanalysis here. What's the problem with understanding yourself, your repressed trauma, of the things you've been forced to repress about your identity, and dealing with your all of this by accepting it, integrating it, and growing as a person? Even if getting rid of the trauma is impossible, you can at least learn how to live with it in a healthy way that doesn't cause further harm. Really, it's just a matter of ideology that a conversion therapist thinks that being gay or trans is a negative result of self repression. You could very easily make the argument that gay or trans people still in the closet who are self repressing need to confront the trauma that made them do this and then accept their true identity. Yes, trauma just linger in you, unconsciously, and it does stay there until you do something about it. Why not try to overcome the control it has a very you and grow? It seems like using literal Nazis and conversion therapists as the only examples of psychoanalysists is pretty dishonest and bias. Also, you say that trying to ignore your trauma and not indulge in it is Nazi shit which endorses a normative view, and then are immediately disgusted by the main characters doing exactly that? What the hell? I don't think that fetishizing your trauma and embracing sadomasochism is at all a healthy way of dealing with it, but if you're going to go down the path of indulgence and excess then at least do so bravely and don't try to put down new lines to demarcate acceptability. To do that is to try and indulge in contained experiences just so you can return to the normative world and not have to fully accept that part of you. You just reinforce that toxic and limiting status quo.

I don't think that Freud or Jung would appreciate Nazis using their theory and practice for self-help. I'll just say it right now, I don't think Nazis deserve to achieve individuation.

joined for this; one of the most personally impacting films of my life

Ich träume von weißen Weihnachten, genau wie früher...🎄

Really enriched by this + the zone of interest episode as companions to Tuesday's episode of blood work wrt libidinal politics

Dirk Bogarde was such an extraordinary individual. You will never witness the liberation of a concentration camp*, help plan Operation Market Garden, then later appear in a movie about it with pretty much every great actor of your generation (and Sean Connery). Or do like, a million of the other amazing things he did. *I posted that, then I remembered the state of the world and thought, "Bitch I might." But the rest is a lot less likely.

Bataille has entered the chat

Using the topless hottie in a Nazi uniform as the poster/box cover art certainly doesn't help make the case against the movie promoting Nazi chic.

"Ew lol ew oh that's interesting ew lol ew ew ew ew..."

Re: holocaust season movies one hasn’t had the inclination to watch: on the plex, yet unwatched, is Claude Lanzmann’s “Shoah“. It came on 4 dvds. It will have to be quite the day.

I’ll hazard a guess that part of the reason why American critics may not have liked this movie is the uncomfortable association that can be drawn between the Nazis on the one hand (who, if they didn’t actually win the war, have kept it going covertly) and the Confederacy (our own home-grown Nazis) on the other. In fact you can probably make a strong argument that the Confederacy really did just straight-up win the Civil War. I mean, look at the state of the US today. And, of course, the Confederacy and the things its supporters did have been HIGHLY eroticized, from all angles.

Would it interest you to know, that in Isreal in the 60s there was a short lived trend of "Stalag fiction" penny dreadful style erotica about Allied men being tortured Ilsa style, before the men would get violent revenge. The trend stopped when they captured Adolf Eichmann and it was outlawed. This trend made a comeback with certain Girls Frontline doijin featuring the Nazi guns and the Jewish guns

abi! you forgot to explain what the camp looks like!

Paul Preciado has entered the chat*

I always welcome more Dirk Bogarde movies. He was a wonderful actor.

Oh hell yes, inject the difficult subject matter straight into my veins!