Satanic Bonus Episode
Today Sarah takes us on a whirlwind tour through some of the books on her Satanic Panic shelf. Topics include The Omen, Colin Dickey's The Unidentified, and Child's Play. If you've ever wondered what it's like to find yourself sitting next to Sarah on a plane, this is the answer.
Dp you enjoy this kind of look at your hosts' research process? Would you like to hear it again? What else do you want to hear about in these bonus episodes? Let us know, and keep your cows safe.
Yours,
Mike and Sarah
(Image from Ready or Not, Sarah's new favorite movie about Satanists where it was the patriarchy all along.)
Comments (83)
I wanna sit next to Sarah on a plane! We could also talk about plants.
Fun fact for you, my friends and I were personal responsibe of several bigfoot sightings. When I was a tween (11-13 ish), my favorite thing was building stick forts in the woods. Me and all my friends started doing it. In the woods behind my house, in the park, in the woods at my friends and grandma's, everywhere we were we just built stuff in the woods. Some older boys found our stick huts and were convinced it was bigfoot, because bigfoot hunting shows were big and they said they did that. Bigfoot spread through the school and town. Unfortunately there were no bigfeet just some teens in the woods
I was raised as a southern Baptist preacher’s kid in the mid 80s, so I am very familiar with and obsessed with the “satanic panic”. If you haven’t encountered this book already, Sarah, I’d suggest you look at the author Rebecca Yoder Brown, MD. I think she had several books, but the one I remember seeing at home and reading when I was younger was called “He Came To Set The Captives Free”. The cover is fantastic
I would be so curious to have a bonus room on the crime procedural shows and things like Criminal Minds, which I love watching but know is absolutely not what is happening (especially their pseudo-psychology). With Criminal Minds, I would be super interested in hearing about the actual BAU/profiling and how that has failed in the past (aka the ridiculously inaccurate profile of the DC sniper).
As someone who was in an abusive relationship, everyone LOVES to diagnose my ex, including my therapist occasionally. For a year-ish after leaving, I did play around with trying to figure out “what” he is/is wrong with him. I can read any list of Cluster B diagnostic criteria and hear bells ringing in my head, but that has gotten me nowhere in my own personal healing journey. At the end of the day, his behavior was just not acceptable and caused a lot of harm. I think some people call their exes sociopaths or psychopaths because our society doesn’t understand the impact of emotional and psychological abuse like they seem to get physical abuse. Calling someone a sociopath or a narcissist or whatever is a shorthand that seems to make sense to people without having to dig into the impact of the specific pattern of behavior in the relationship... and it’s a way to “other” that person as if it takes a special type of evil person to be an abuser while the rest of us are somehow better and would never hurt someone that way.
You should definitely do the multi-part Satanic Panic Redux episode, Sarah.
Sorry, if any-one is interested in a Salmonella related controversy/panic, we actually had one in the UK in the late 80s that cost one MP, Edwina Curry their post in government. It was a very English moment.
Can a sociopath historically just be a person from a radically different upbringing that we don't understand? Does it rise in use with a society leaving the farm?
Rick Steeves seems like a genuinely nice person!
Sarah! If you want an intense detective/villain duo where the sexual tension isn’t written to fulfill gross old man fantasies, and you don’t have to be disgusted by the inherent gendered power differential, watch Killing Eve!!
Sorry to write so late, but I've lately been obsessed with the movie Mandy. More specifically in how it relates to this topic, because the world that Mandy occurs in is a world where the 80s idea of Satanism was real. Anyone who likes delving into the culture that was the Satanic Panic would thoroughly enjoy Mandy for all the little Easter eggs scattered about.
Right? So NOT the "good guys." You nailed it! Yes!! Oh hell, yes!
While most Satanists are just next level atheists/humanists, there are a tiny percentage who literally believe in Satan, they just don't believe Satan is the bad guy in the story. Lucifer means, "morning star" or, "bringer of light." Whether they believe in a literal Satan or not, Luciferianism casts Satan as a Promethean character. He encouraged man to break free from their bondage as pets in God's garden and eat from the Tree of Knowledge and become like gods themselves. It's kind of interesting when people say, "if you believe the Bible is true, who would choose Satan?" Because Satan isn't really in the Bible much. The Garden of Eden was a serpent. In fact, there's only two references to Satan in the entire Old Testament because there's no literal Satan in Judaism. If Christians want the serpent to be Satan, well, ok, but what did the Serpent actually do? God said, "if you eat the fruit from this tree, you will die." The serpent said, "you won't die. You will know what God knows and be like God." After they eat the fruit, God says, "man ate the fruit of Knowledge. Let us kick him out of the garden before he eats from the Tree of Life and lives forever also." So, from the viewpoint of those who argue that Western religions stifle knowledge and freedom, Satan is actually a pretty good champion. And when you think about the horrors of Christianity: people being publicly tortured and burned at the stake for heresy and witchcraft, the Crusades, the Inquisition, child sex abuse, gay conversion, the Christian Right's fight against bodily autonomy all over the world, and Catholic charity hospitals delivering babies and telling the mother it was dead so they can give it to a "proper" family… These are the "good guys?"
I can’t believe I’ve lived in Tulsa my whole life and I’ve never heard of such cattle “mutilation”! The more you know... lol
Alexandra, I don’t know how to reply to your comment. (Am I doing it now?? Lol) That’s so interesting that you haven’t come across it in Canada! Yes it’s commonly used, especially among children who are adopted, and it is very stigmatizing!
I think it must just be a vocabulary thing. I understand the concept of forming unhealthy or unstable attachments (insecure attachment). But we seem to get the end result of "they have conduct disorder because early childhood trauma!" Instead of using the term RAD. Or perhaps this will become one of those words that now I am hyper aware of and will come across frequently. Thanks for the awareness! As a new foster parent I will be sure to try and keep myself in check if this term ever arises.
I may have missed this, but are you guys ever going to do an episode on the aftermath of Michelle Remember s?
Kathleen, it's basically the Satanic Panic Episode #1
A deep dive on Psychopathy would make my quarentine! Also, I've been seeing Narcissistic Personality taking the throne of "is your ex/most hated aquaintence an XYZ" pop-psych articles lately. Is this a long term trend, I wonder? I don't necessarily think that psychopathy will ever truly leave our collective subconscious, but it seems Narcissistic Personality is an easier concept to apply on mass to anyone you want to believe is abusing or gaslighting you. Could be totally off base, just a casual observation.
Hello! I actually was just about to comment on the topic of Narcissism and see your post. It's true that Narcissism is more talked about lately - and studied more in the past decade. I am someone who has had the misfortune of being raised by a Narcissist and also have dated several due to how I was raised. The trauma caused by this is severe - most people go crazy in some way or another. The fact that narcissists have no empathy is troubling but malignant narcissists' actually need to hurt people to feel alive. To me that is pure evil. Not all narcissists are malignant and only a small amount a serial killers and rapists but they do terrorize the people in their life. I think we are in different times in 2021 in terms of data on personality disorders than we were when everyone was fake diagnosing psychopaths in the 70s.
Surprised you didn't mention Good Omens, because that basically satirises the story you're talking about, a satanic nunnery swapping out the Antichrist with a senator's baby, but bungling it up 😂
Definitely need a “I would rather marry Rick Steves” shirt!
Sarah- I felt your Clarice Starling letdown. She was the first character I ever wanted to be when I was a kid, and when ‘Hannibal’ came out I felt the same sense of betrayal. Surprised that you may not have seen ‘Hannibal’ the series? I put it off for years and then became haunted by it. It redeems the character asks questions about the nature of evil that seem like something you would find compelling.
Sarah, have you watched Killing Eve? The sexual tension between the assassin and the agent looking for her might be just what you’re looking for!
Also, I heard Mary Harron guest on Eli Roths horror podcast and she talked about Rosemarys Baby, her work on American Psycho, she said something really insightful stuff on gender, abuse and horror films.
Just a quick thing about Carol baskin. As far as I know, most of the people at her zoo are volunteers. Ive worked at zoos for the last couple years and if there's one thing I know is that volunteers don't follow the rules like employees. They're kids they don't care and people get hurt. She's not a sociopath she's a capitalist who doesn't want to pay her workers
I just wanna say, side note, @ 3:20 Sarah mentions a cough being “productive” and I’ve been trying to come up with that term for the past three weeks. Now I feel better. Thanks. 🥳😁
but the rest of us feel worse thinking about a "productive" cough. 🤢
Satanic Panic is part of one of my favorite X-Files episodes were it really was satan all along.
"How do I get you to talk about your complicated thoughts? What should I ask you?" I liked these questions from Michael a lot.
Reading an article on Samuel Little, the serial killer who only killed vulnerable/marginalized folks who wouldn't be noticed missing. Feels very related to your DC snipers series, and our single minded obsession with white serial killers
I totally snort laughed when Sarah said she would rather marry Rick Steeves!
Come on, Sarah. Cut Hannibal a break. If you'd stuck with the series you'd learn that he became the monster he is because he watched rogue Nazis eat his sister while they were hiding in a lodge in the woods because the war displaced them from Lecter family castle. That's why he's got all those fancy tastes for opera and human flesh.
Can we get some dog merch please
asking for a friend
I don’t know if this is the appropriate place to write this but- I would love to hear an episode about Reactive Attachment Disorder and orphanages (Romania etc). I’m a social worker with teens in foster care with many diagnosed with RAD and I think it’s such bullshit!! It’s used similarly to psychopath as in “they have no feelings for others and never will!!” and the diagnostic criteria is really broad and basically any foster child could fit because of their multiple caregivers. When adopted kids get to be teenagers they have to act like angels otherwise it’s like “see how they misbehave, it’s because they DONT CARE. IT MUST BE RAD!!” Anyway, love your show! :)
This is a good suggestion. I would also lovd to see an episode on borderline personslity disorder, which I was misdiagnosed with aged 19 and it took 15 years to get it off my medical notes, here in the UK the movement to recognise trauma rather than relying on subjective outdated personality or RAD type disorders.
I want to flag the Wolf of Snow's Hollow as a deeply human horror movie recommendation.
YRA violence & looting in hurricane katrina
I would love Mike to keep up with the royals and do a deep dive on Fergie.
Question for Sarah- how do you feel with AD/HD rejection dysphoria while being in the public eye from the podcast?
An episode or conversation about Mary Todd Lincoln would be amazing. So many people think of her as just Lincoln’s crazy emotional widow but there’s a lot more to her, including her son’s attempt to put her in a mental hospital and seize control of her estate.
Michael and Sarah I really want to invite you to Clubhouse. Send me a message here or on Twitter if you want to join
I do think the psychopath thing is WAYYYY overblown, but it is a scientific term that has loads of research behind it
Tulsa is nowhere near Omaha (home of Berkshire Hathaway) LOLLLL mike. I love hearing folks geographical gesticulations
Sarah and I are on a very similar page- I’ve been writing an incredibly boringly long research paper on antisocial personality disorder and the give and take influence on different spheres of media! Additionally just wrote a paper on the trope of the killer trans individual in regards to Buffalo Bill!
“Incredibly boringly long research paper” speaks to my soul!
The only two choices for the personality of an ex are psychopathic or narcissistic. However I've never heard anyone describe their ex as Machiavellian.
Wow, I had never heard that cattle mutilation research before and I didn't know that Hannibal Lecter was so badly written and terrible! I do think that Manhunter is an excellent and terrifying film though.
Love a research methods episode! Was also happy to finally have an understanding of the cattle mutilation thing-- X-Files was my first big fandom. If it was yours, how about a bonus episode debunking some of the other conspiracy theories they riffed on?
If you ever have time, I would love to hear Sarah's opinion on the subversion of the Satanic Panic in Good Omens ( the book or the Amazon show).
I feel like I don’t have a fully formed idea here—but listening to the Princess Diana episodes made me really wish we could do a deep dive into royal “charities” and the impacts of them. Are they actually helping? What kind of “charity” is helpful?
Thank for the bonus ep, which was main feed quality in my opinion (not that anything you two do is anything less)!
"I did a lot of good writing in those years, but it was mostly emails" WOW do I feel seen right now...
Random observation, but you can't just put a jug of blood in the fridge and have it remain liquid enough for baptisms. It's going to go all clotty.
Aaah I loved this episode!! The bit about the guy jerking off in the woods was something that happened during the investigation into the Atlanta child murders in the late 70s/early 80s and it is dramatised in that show Mindhunter. I would love to have Sarah’s take on that show which, to my mind, tries to play off the problems of criminal profiling with the desire to have a super smart and sexy FBI profiler.
I AM FURIOUS ABOUT THE HANNIBAL ENDING. WHY WOULD THEY DO CLARICE THAT WAY??? 😫😫😫
Was it truly the patriarchy all along in Ready or Not if Satan really was pulling all the strings? I feel like we can't truly gender Satan.
Oh, Sarah please give us your thoughts on Jennifer's Body !!!
Yes PLEASE!!
I watched all three Paranormal Activity movies before quarantine, and those are definitely "Satan, but actually it's just your gaslighting jackass boyfriend/husband." Bless NBC Hannibal and Bryan Fuller for the chaotic pansexual energy of Hannibal and the baby bi energy of Will Graham. (Let poor Clarice live her life~)
I know this is something you've kind of addressed in other episodes but honestly I'd love a whole episode about psychopathy.
Any chance we can get a Patreon only peek at the library cart?
1) I love Ready or Not. 2) I am never going to be able to un-hear that Hannibal reading. ahhhhhhhh
I really like the idea that you touched on about the ‘us or them’ mentality that we as a society tend to fall into (in the context of the atheist v Christian issue). My legal studies class had a whole discussion today about how passing judgement on an entire group of people based on a single characteristic prevents effective legal, political and social responses. I just find that whole premise so interesting to think about in the context of a lot of broader societal issues. Love hearing your thoughts!
Something for my train ride 🙌
I'm going to need to hear all of your thoughts and feelings about Buffy in a future bonus episode.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!
A satanic panic bonus from Sarah to play as i try to fall asleep? OF COURSE!!!
Your voices and views have given me a little bit of courage. I listen to you two and I think, the world has people like this in it and I’m not as lonely as I was yesterday because of it.
This was great. Updates on Satanic Panic research will always be appreciated. As far as other bonus topics, Mike said in the Electoral College episode that he likes to tweet about Brexit. I would be happy to hear him talk/rant about that for however long he wants.
I'm British and I fully support a Mike rants about Brexit episode.
"In my america everybody can jerk off in the woods" STOP THE COUNT
Ooooooooh girl. If you like that serial killer/investigator sexual tension PLEASE TELL ME you’ve been watching Killing Eve.
Ah man Sarah your worldview is so incredible I really enjoy hearing your opinions
"christian are good and atheists are evil" damn do you think this thinking might have fucked some people up?????
I always enjoy Satanic Panic episodes! I am a 17th century English historian, and there are just so many fascinating parallels between the rhetoric of the satanic panic and the witch craze of the 16th and 17th centuries. Nothing incites a moral panic like societal concerns over gender, financial instability, and inter-community tensions with an (un)healthy blob of satan on top! (not to mention that many of the accusations were about baby killing)
I love these bonus episodes!
are you all still planning a "what we think REALLY happened" to michelle from michelle remembers?
Every time Sarah introduces herself as "I'm writing a book about the Satanic Panic" I make Grabby Hands at my podcast player while saying "GIVE! GIVE IT TO ME! GIVE IT TO ME NOWWWW!" so yes I would love to hear any bits and pieces and behind the scenes of the whole topic because I served as a pastor in Appalachian Ohio from 2003-2017 and the Satanic Panic was still ALIVE AND WELL for some people (probably still is).
Super-agree that I can't wait for that book!!
I would be so happy to sit next to Sarah on a plane. You guys are so well informed that I LOVE hearing the process behind the episodes. But really I would sit and listen to Mike and Sarah talk about the weather for an hour
Can we get a “Cook your chicken, people. “ shirt?