Princess Diana, The Crown and Responsible Storytelling
You asked, we podcasted. Since the premiere of The Crown's fourth season, we've been getting requests to talk about the show's portrayal of Princess Diana and how we feel about the (numerous!) changes the show made to her story. Spoiler: They make us feel weird!
Since Sarah's never seen the show (and Mike has only seen the Olivia Coleman seasons), we used the conversation as a jumping off point to talk about the ethics of turning true stories into entertainment. Oh, and also prestige TV tropes, Zero Dark Thirty, The Social Network, All the President's Men, The Devil Wears Prada, Erin Brockovich, Tonya Harding, Willem Dafoe, Veep and Time After Time a forgotten '70s movie about H.G. Wells traveling through time with Jack the Ripper.
As usual, let us know in the comments if there's other things you want us to talk about in future bonus episodes.
[Low curtsy],
Mike and Sarah
Comments (121)
NO ONE wants to quit their job and live in Fresno.
I’ve never watched Veep but relistening to this, Sarah makes me want to. I absolutely love how she describes emotions. My god. Her talking about that scene is poetry.
The Aberfan disaster happened during the Olivia Coleman season. (It’s my favorite episode). I dove into the history of that disaster…it’s so much worse than depicted.
I’m so late on this, but when Mike says he wants Sarah to explain horror movies to him, that’s why I listen to you are good episodes about horror movies, because I can’t watch them but I want to know what they’re about 😂
I’m personally extremely upset about the lack of rain legs. I wanted to watch this show specifically for that reason at one point
The Julie parts of Julie & Julia are annoying, but the Julia parts are so great. It feels like a filmed version of Julia’s autobiography. Is her autobiography (written with a great nephew) not self itself fan fiction? Who can say. But I think it’s a lovely and accurate presentation of her book. Also for the record I watched the Crown before I listened to your series on it, and listening to Michael speaking on her life was soooo accurate to what I’d seen on the show! They turned it into a tv show sure, but I really believe they showed the truth of the generalities of Diana’s life. And Prince Harry said he liked it, soooo!
Prestige drama tropes: The Handmaid's Tale is a major culprit. They only ever came up with two ideas for padding out a thin episode. 1. Colourful, artistic drone shot. 2. Endless close-ups of Elizabeth Moss pulling some facial expression meant to symbolise the action in case the viewer's attention has drifted away. ("Liz, deep breath, and now we're feeling... fiercely determined but with hope and yearning, and... rolling!")
Insane Crown Posse would have been a better series title.
i’m honestly surprised that there even was a diana season, let alone that there’s gonna be two more to come. it makes me curious in a worrying way how far in the timeline they will go, and if people like kate and meghan will be introduced and in what way will they be depicted.
Best historical fan fiction - Abe Lincoln Vampire Slayer
Speaking of biopics that alter a population's perception of a historical figure, Michael Collins had a big effect on Irish people's idea of Eamon de Valera (played by Alan Rickman). I think Motherfocloir actually did an episode on this but it's v interesting!!
I think it would be super nice to have an episode on Thatcher
Would have loved your thoughts on Season 3 story line Lord Mountbatten and the Queen Mother making sure Charles didn’t marry Camilla.
An episode on Thatcher to clarify to the new gen just how bad for the country she was – and kinda balance out all that skewed narrative of The Iron Lady (as marvellous as Meryl Streep was)
I love this podcast! I want a whole series on Hilary Clinton!!!
I’d just like to add that The Crown was nowhere near accurately nasty enough about Thatcher. They give her a sort to “girlboss” narrative when in reality she was much, much worse and it’s upsetting that they went in that direction.
Absolutely! I think there were bits that were almost sympathetic to her too (the bit at Balmoral where she kept getting the social cues wrong). It’s a hard balance to get right but yeah, she deserves no niceties!
I'm glad to know that other people also read the Wikipedia entry for a movie instead of actually watching it
Do an episode about Margaret thatcher
Nobody's in here trying to guess the historical biography Mike's friend edited? I'm going with Chernow's "Hamilton."
Listening to it now and I came back to the discussion to find out. I hope it’s something by Conrad “May I Have A Pardon Please, Mr President” Black
I think I should just mention that I am 100% here for the mention of "Raine Legs".
I loved this, as it's one of my biggest pet peeves in filmmaking. I think my biggest offender is The Greatest Showman. Fuck that movie.
Because he was basically a cartoon villain who came to life. Ugh.
I have absolutely no interest in the royal family, but sat through the most recent series of the crown entirely because of YWA
PLEASE someone make a shirt design with Sarah’s quote about cats and consent.
I have really loved your podcasts on Diana (disclaimer: I am British). Re. trying to accurately retell someone's life: try the 1759 novel: 'The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman' which tried to do this 250 years ago - it's pretty funny. It also plays with typography as it has a complete black page when Yorick dies ('Alas Poor Yorick!), a squiggly line for a sword fight etc. Also I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on The Devil Wears Prada!
@sarah do you like Fleabag? Would love to hear your thoughts on Olivia Coleman in it!
I would love to get a follow up ep to this re: the Meghan and Harry Oprah interview that just dropped! halp!
Oh, I concur so forcefully with this.
Is the Crown a sophisticated TV version of 'Stockholm Syndrome'?
Omg, I too, cannot watch horror movies but obsessively read their Wikipedia entries and plot summaries online. I've only listened to the first 5 min of this so far, but as always, I'm feeling seen already. I love this podcast.
I would love a Rosa Parks episode detailing her previous activism and organizing before the bus. I’m so annoyed that for years we were fed the story of how she was this tired old lady who accidentally set of the Civil Rights Movement.
Very late to game as I’m just listening to this episode. Olivia Coleman is magnificent in the role but you are short changing yourselves in not watching the first two seasons with Clare Foy. Her performance is electric.
I don’t think there is a topic idea here, but I stumbled onto this 1999 analysis of the changes in News and TV journalism (from the Nieman Reports) and it felt like it exploded my brain. It seems to so clearly explain a transition away from news as a "cost and public service" into "news as entertainment" but it does so with a ton of detail regarding the internal business forces and people at play. It's also such a crazy time capsule because it's written in 1999 just as the internet is peaking its way onto the news/media scene and it has no idea how this already shifting dynamic is going to get a whole lot crazier just around the corner. I also really like that it includes critical responses about the piece itself from top executives at ABC News, CBS News and others (which you can see in the PDF version). It's hard not to read this now and be surprised about the challenges we're struggling with today in news, fact and truth. It's also crazy to realize that my entire young human consumption of "news" was during the peak of this shift. This may also just be interesting to me because I am not educated around journalism/news history at all, so perhaps this is old info to some, but sharing it anyway! PDF Link (which has the full piece, on page 20): https://niemanreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/99special.pdf Website Link (easier to read, but missing some content): https://niemanreports.org/articles/the-transformation-of-network-news/ Authored by: Marc Gunther, Bio Link: https://nonprofitchronicles.com/marc-gunther-bio/ Twitter Link: https://twitter.com/MarcGunther, who many also have an out of print book on the subject as well ;)
If you are looking for an in-depth look into the Saw movie series, check out A Series of Horrors Podcast! https://linktr.ee/SeriesofHorrors
Please do an episode on Hong Kong/ China/ Taiwan ordeal. What are we wrong about?
One thing that stands out to me as an irresponsible fictionalisation is The Imitation Game. It just really really downplays the homophobia and the horror of what the British government did to Alan Turing
Seconded! When I found out about Alan Turing in my early 20s I was Not Okay for awhile.
I had a different read on the disaster Australia press conference. My takeaway wasn't that Diana was bad at it but that the people around her hadn't adequately prepared her. There is also a part where Charles makes a comment like "she's good with glamorous balls..." which reminded me of a later incident Michael talked about where they were on some trip and Diana had a whole schedule of visits planned and Charles just said "oh, she's going to be shopping." When I watched that Australia scene on The Crown I figured the writers had read about that real scene and were trying to reflect that dynamic.
Finally listened to this. It made me think of the movie 300 which is PEAK irresponsible story telling.
I sat on this episode until I finished hatewatching The Crown and listening in on today's podcast was a lovely gift that kept on giving! I hatewatched 'The Crown' for So Many Reasons. It has been the perfect tonic in these pandemic, lockdown times, where so many things/phenomena are worthy of scorn for just existing but you can't be like that because you tear up the fabric of society. So I chose 'The Crown' because: - I enjoy watching white, inbred, aristocrat, colonisers with little-to-no understanding of their privilege suffer and suffer more in their (literal) castles. It's like watching pro-wrestling with a cast of all 'baddies'. - Someone threw a lot of money at making their suffering look so nice. - The Colonialism and the Hunting. Fuck them all for just these two things. Every time we almost had some kind of sympathy for them, an employee loaded and aimed a rifle for them to shoot another hapless animal and we got back to comfortably hating them again. Initially, I felt ethically distressed about watching a(nother) screen legend portray the awful beast that is Margaret Thatcher, having watched the series glaze over Churchill's sickening racism in earlier seasons. But then Anderson's 'Spitting Image*' caricature made it much more palatable - even though, again, they skipped over her gut-wrenching bigotry and classist, bigoted policies. (And what's this trope with all the 'bad/pitiful' characters tilting their heads, Quasimodo-style? Certainly makes it easy to spot them.) My biggest problem with 'The Crown' is how the production underplays the reason WHY the actual Crown still exists in a modern context, which is all about the money it generates. The British monarchy costs a lot but is also a significant revenue generator for the United Kingdom (including the trade ties of the Commonwealth) - it is as much a British brand as Rolls Royce. Each member of the Royal Family is obliged to participate in this charade, trading on the 'image' to sell to the media as a commodity. Trying to portray them as 'people living in a vacuum' loses a significant dimension. And whilst I fully realise we are discussing a fictionalised version of real people, again, it might be easy to assume their public image only has symbolic value - whereas it has a very significant monetary value as well. Finally, Michael, you undersell your ethical approach to investigative journalism/storytelling. In steering clear of the story arcs of people (especially young people) with no power over the exploitation of their image, you are just showing basic respect. This isn't a subjective choice, IMO; it's common decency. Spitting Image: https://youtu.be/_ppv_aMl0z0
"I enjoy watching white, inbred, aristocrat, colonisers with little-to-no understanding of their privilege suffer and suffer more in their (literal) castles."... So true. And these are the people that pretend to be the ideals and base models of "civilization" (whatever that is). I enjoyed reading this comment :P
Hello from Australia:) I love the show.
Okay, Michael - can we talk about the amazing job that Gillian Anderson did as Margaret Thatcher? I barely recognized her. Also, a motive to watch the first seasons.... young Prince Philip (that charmer). John Lithgow as Church Hill. Also in the first seasons, the actor that plays Princess Margaret, Vanessa Kirby, does an amazing performance. Coming from someone who doesn't follow the royal family at all (last time I was involved was waiting for the Princess Di TY beanie baby) I am now obsessed with the crown... the casting alone is amazing. Give it a go! Let me know what you think.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54903428 link to the Molly Russell related Instagram policy changes.
Re: the Crown omitting self harm depictions, I wonder if the UK Molly Russell Instagram case influenced what Netflix and the producers felt they could show
I keep thinking of the mid-90's parenting book regarding the threats teenage girls are facing. "Reviving Ophelia" was written by Mary Pipher, a therapist. My mom bought this when I was maybe 11 or 12, and we had a very open and close relationship so I read it too. I remember really not getting what the point was. It basically concluded that even if you are a cool, nerdy girl who doesn't care what the popular girls think, you're still going to have a bad time. The book covers all the classic 90's panic-induced topics such as DRUGS, SEX, AND DIVORCE. However, it never once mentions that maybe all of these problems really stem from the patriarchy and toxic masculinity. I think Sarah and Mike could tear this one up. Also, FWIW, apparently this book was made into a Lifetime movie.
That's interesting, I read this book when it came out and I was in my early 20's, and I really liked it. I think her point was to try to show parents how their parenting can evolve to try and meet the challenges that their girls encounter. And she is far more culturally sensitive and evolved than most other writers of that time. I do agree that it would be helpful to discuss the patriarchy and toxic masculinity issues that she does not really discuss. I remember that I really resonated with the way that it discussed how young teenage girls stifle their personalities to be liked by boys. I consciously did this from 7th to 11th grade (late 70's to early 80's).
can we please NOT have an episode about Brexit? This has been covered to DEATH, same as Trump. I'd much rather hear from other parts of the world, or other stories. There are plenty.
I’m craving a new-years-resolution inspired episode on veganism! Is it good? Is it bad? Is it complicated? We’re wrong, pls advise.
Oh also!! As I am constantly craving more Sarah and Mike content (don’t worry; I listen to both of your other podcasts religiously)... I’m wondering what y’all’s go-to pods are??!!
Ok so I just learned that “prolific serial killer” Samuel Little just died.... but why have I never heard of him??? Convicted in 2012 for murders that happened in prior decades... too soon to talk about, Sarah?
https://youtu.be/YhpCMJACpzk I would love a bonus episode where Sarah and Michael just do a full length table read of Diana: The Musical
Can we please please please have a long awaited episode on Brexit?
I just had the absolute worst carrie bradshaw esque moment (while ranting about tudor history, a dreadfully dull pet subject) and I imagine it's something you've kind of heard about before but I'm curious... what's the sort of statute of limitations on you're wrong abouts? A point where a correction is too heavily weighted in pedantry versus relevance (sort of like the "it's not koolaid, it's flavor aid" correction - what does this accomplish?!). You're journalists, not historians per se, so maybe it's something that's not only boring but a thing you feel ill-qualified to talk about, but it's one I'm kind of curious about myself. How do you determine the cultural/social relevancy of a correction with past events?!?!
I'd like to add my vote to a gifted children episode as mentioned in the September Bonus Room. I grew up as a "gifted" child and it definitely was a huge factor in my social anxiety later in life, particularly once I was surrounded by other "gifted" children in university and grad school. I'd love to hear more of Mike and Sarah's views on that!
Has anyone noticed the two hosts are like the two hemisphere of our brains? Michael - Left, Sarah - Right? I can' t get enough of these two epistemologists debunking packaged reality in the new millennium. Michael: WTF? Sarah: (wait to stop laughing) Yeah and this... I like because they mirror my internal dialog and skepticism. Content wins! Great job kids, you're my favorite fake friends now for 2 yrs
I am the exact same way with horror movies, Michael! I can’t watch them because I’ll have nightmares for literal weeks but am weirdly intrigued by them and read everything I can find about them. I guess it’s the visuals that haunt me!
Spitballing here, but I wonder if Netflix was reluctant to show Diana's suicide attempts after criticism it received about 13 Reasons Why.
Your breaking my heart. 10 days and no new podcast. I would be ecstatic if you did more than one a week. You guys are so good. Please drop the next episode!!!!
Given its rise on tiktok and Instagram, and some of the previous stories covered, I'm curious what your take on Bimbos and bimbo culture, and its new resurgence is!
Leaving this here, though "Newsies" and satire are not related to Diana and "The Crown" (or actually perhaps they are).https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-open-letter-to-the-paperboys-in-newsies-who-nicknamed-their-friend-crutchie
Would you take on Woody Allen?
Who is wrong about Woody Allen???
I would LOVE to listen to a description of the Saw series with commentary by Sarah!!! The story and metaphor seems so intriguing (mostly going off Sarah's tweets) but I absolutely cannot watch those movies 💀(I get triggered easily by any form of blood or gore and would have a million panic attacks if I tried to watch them)
I'd love to see banjawarn station added to the list of you're wrong abouts ❤️ very interesting stuff
I'm doing an episode-by-episode recap of the whole show for work on my YouTube channel and we've talked a lot about why Peter Morgan has made the changes he's made. Because YIKES WHAT STORY IS HE TRYING TO TELL?! My business partner and I are scholars about Northern Ireland and I'll tell you that he took some liberties with Mountbatten's death in ep1 as well. WHAT A SHOW. Anyway, found y'all because a viewer of ours told me about your Diana coverage and then you talked about Newsies and now you're stuck with me forever. Thanks for your work and keeping me company on commutes.
That’s so interesting! I’d love any recommendations for books, podcasts, etc. on Northern Ireland. I’ve always wanted to know more about the troubles but so many articles I find to be confusing!
First, huge huge fan of y’alls work. Second, listening to the latest episode on “Losing your family to Fox News” and am so grateful to hear you guys dig into the systematic reasons - from socioeconomic to technical infrastructure to the cognitive function. This is quite literally my life at Aspen Digital and so great to hear it becoming part of the public discourse. 👏🏽👏🏽
No time like the present to do a YWA on vaccines! Other ideas are the relatively new phenomenon of Genetic Genealogy (Cece Moore, how EARONS was caught, etc.) or Georgia Tann and the whole idea of pre/post-war Black Market baby adoptions. A YWA on ADD/ADHD would also be great as I feel like it’s very misunderstood, especially in adults. Finally a YWA on the increasing maternal mortality rate, especially in non-white women. It’s such an expansive issue and I often find myself at a loss for what policy changes and legislation to advocate for other than, “please listen to women more!” How do you regulate and police empathy and listening, especially in medicine?
No pressure, but are we going to get more chapters of Nancy Grace’s book, or the conclusion episode of Michelle Remembers? I feel like the series both ended but unexpectedly. Also! Scaring people away from drugs (a la DARE) doesn’t really work, but does it work for other things, like anti-smoking campaigns, anti-drunk driving PSAs, or as suggested recently in the NY Times, Covid messaging to the public?
I felt that we did get a conclusive ending to Michelle Remembers - especially Mike/Sarah (forgot who) suspecting Michelle had manufactured a "series finale" final flashback with the Virgin Mary to get Doctor Pazder to stop the sessions.
I absolutely live for a casual Fresno diss, thank you so much.
Yes please explain saw franchise I’m too scared to watch as well
Words cannot express how utterly amped I am for this episode
I want to go on record that I would LOVE to hear Sarah talk about the Saw franchise. Saw 2 has a 'Why are dads' episode written all over it.
Mike and Sarah - thought you would like to see this little YWA done on (at?) The Crown by Australia’s flagship investigative news program, 4 Corners, mostly about the show’s portrayal of most partyingest Prime Minister in Australia’s history, Bob Hawke: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/nov/26/the-crown-ridiculed-bob-hawke-did-not-call-the-queen-a-pig-or-a-pom-he-was-better-than-that?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Someone at the Australian Broadcasting Corporation is a Debunkmate! We salute you, friend!
I am on record as saying you do NOT need to watch earlier seasons of The Crown to appreciate this one but it does bear just mentioning that a lot of the things Sarah asks Mike about do happen in earlier seasons (ie Claire Foy times), particularly seeing Charles as having the same put-upon childhood that his children seem to have had. I really liked this season's expressive depictions, but appreciate your journalistic care in representing the truth. Lastly and most importantly I need everyone to watch this season of the crown so they can appreciate this: https://twitter.com/KieranCHodgson/status/1329817978205065217
No shade to Mike for making fun of “prestige tv” tropes—but I love drone shots of beautiful landscapes, getting dressed montages, and long silent scenes of characters staring out a window. Being stuck inside with very little access to beauty—these things really feed me.
Love the fact that Sarah mentioned the Veep scene and that she loves that show so much. And though for my money, JLD's greatest (half) hour on Veep is in the episode 'Mother' I knew immediately what scene Sarah was speaking about. Still remember it so vividly as if I watched it just yesterday. A million of tiny emotions expressed on JLD's face while she tries to remain stoic is just phenomenal. She really is one of the greatest working actresses.
I, too, read Wikipedia entries on horror movies because I can’t watch them.
I know this might be a stretch, but I would love a WYA breakdown of The Miracle of the Andes. In 1972, a small aircraft including a group of rugby players flying from Montevideo to Chile crashed in the Andes. The survivors were stuck there for 72 days. The searches were stopped, they were taken for dead. One of them went for help and eventually found some shepherd or something. The survivors were rescued and brought home, it was international news. When they came home, they explained that they had to resort to cannibalism to survive. This was international news. They became celebrities, they wrote books. There is a movie starring Ethan Hawke about this and I don't know how responsible a portrayal it is.
My friend Clover, who lives in Wales, said that British men are having a crisis of sexuality in trying to reconcile the hotness of Gillian Anderson with the testicle-withering legacy of Thatcher.
Michael watch the first 2 seasons they are so much better than 3 and 4
Ok, literally tried tweeting this today but I WOULD LOVE to hear an episode on Natalie Wood - she has an insanely detailed biography from Suzanne finstead that is CRAZY. It’s also insane to see her family talk about the story defending Robert Wagner on HBO this year after the book was released against it. But also, an episode on MSG and the history of it’s controversy would be awesome too.
Not really related to this particular bonus episode, but in the vein of putting out episodes that aren't necessarily sad and depressing, I'd like to hear y'all dive into "The Meaning of Mariah" like you did with Jessica Simpson's book.
You two need to be on a special Ruined crossover episode. Because the telling of a scary movie to someone who is too scared to see it is just what Ruined the podcast is about.
It's RPF, to be exact. Real People Fic. Many fan fic writers have a very fraught relationship with RPF. I have written both, and only my RPF is archive-locked, because people are WEIRD about fiction about real people.
The whole conversation about what liberties dramatizations can take before they are bad was why I stopped reading Devil in the White City. It would alternate between insanely detailed, timeline like chapters depicting the nitty gritty of how Chicago was built, and then it would switch to a serial killer killing his first victim and you flip to the notes section and it's like "there's no evidence that this is really what his first murder was like, but based on *other* serial killers' first kills, it *could* be." At that point, write two books: a Chicago architecture book and a serial killer historical fan fiction! That being said, I do enjoy watching the Crown and after every episode immediately googling "what parts of the Crown are true and what are made up."
I'm very much looking forward to you lovely Americans doing some research into Margaret Thatcher and finding out why the show was so 'mean' to her. It might make a good podcast episode!
1) it sounds like you all challenged yourselves to a YWA: Margaret Thatcher episode! 2) I agree with Mike that doing an episode on William and Harry seems weird/ gross somehow... perhaps a topic to visit in 20 years?
I dunno, I can't imagine them needing to go further than just "she was a soulless ghoul who irreparably damaged the lives of millions of people"
would Jackie O be a good candidate for an episode? or are we right about her
I feel the same way about a Wallis Simpson episode! I think we were mostly right about her, but she also probably didn't singlehandedly bring down the monarchy
the " Diana" series has literally been the light of my life in this dark time. if it was a 20 part series i would listen to the last drop!
this was almost like a “You’re Wrong About: You’re Wrong About” for a few minutes in there
As someone who very much enjoyed The Scaredy Cats Horror Show podcast and also cannot watch most horror films (but also has read all of the Wikipedia entries for the Hellraiser series), please mark me down as a yes for Sarah Explains Horror Movie Plots. This is sorely missing from my life.
I had a much different interpretation of the Australia trip story arc. I didn’t read that as, “Diana is bad with the press and gets better” I read it as, “Diana is struggling with a difficult pregnancy/birth/early motherhood/disordered eating and is so exhausted, but she is able to overcome those challenges in that moment when she receives love and attention.” Which is the whole driving motivation of Diana in the series—seek love and attention to relieve these feelings of fear/hurt. The reporting on The Crown has been interesting and I would still love to hear more about y’all’s thoughts on it. Particularly, the implications that people have a renewed anger at the royal fam, and that it’s not justified.
Totally on your last point!!! Sarah mentioned a line on it when she mentioned the forced roles of the monarchy but I also wonder with the revived anger with the royal family and if the show influences or helps, or if with this newfound hatred of Charles(the gen z tik tok generation has gotten into this...) will completely upset the system once the queen dies
You guys...ROCK! Thx💗
It really bothered me how little they showed of Diana’s AIDS activism- only in the last episode, and it was her interacting with a child with AIDS, not any of her meetings with gay people with AIDS. That’s the part of her that I’ve always been most drawn to and it felt really gross that they entirely left out her relationships with queer people. (Also there’s a rumour that Freddie Mercury once smuggled her in drag into the Royal Vauxhall Tavern, a famous gay bar- WHY WAS THAT NOT INCLUDED)
The whole time I was watching this season of The Crown, I was thinking of you two! So glad you closed the loop. Thank you both for indulging us!
“The closer, the grosser” explains so many things in life! 🤣
Would definitely listen to an episode where Sarah just explains horror movies to Mike.
Am onboard for a wiki plot explain exchange!!
Listening now and Mike just commented on Princess Margret's lack of character development. Please watch the preceding seasons! Margaret is featured and explored fully. She's an amazing character and one of the only royals to approach and sustain some humanity. You'll also come away with some empathy for the queen as she begins her reign. It's true that evaporates as she goes on, especially how she seems to forget her difficult beginings where Diana is concerned. I hope you both watch it despite its flaws.
I agree! Also for the Charles content, I think they did a great job of laying the groundwork for his character showing how Phillip relates to him as a child and such.
Mike I definitely think you should watch the first two seasons: Claire Foy is great, Princess Margaret being a mess, the abdication of Edward VIII, etc.
Yeah, and however hamfisted the writing of the Crown can be, it really leaves you with vivid images of the core aspects of who these people are (and tries to explain why). Charles' childhood isn't a focal point, but it does let you know on broad strokes why his relationship with his family is so conflicted (Spoiler: Philip is a terrible parent. But so is everyone else, tbh) Also, Sarah kept asking about the early season and I was like *vibrating* cause I know the answer to those questions but I wasn't there for that conversation :')
I love that you mentioned Time After Time, a movie I watched many times as a teen in the 80s, but haven’t seen at all since. Always love hearing your thoughts on topics. Great podcast!
Yes—thank you for confirming that I didn’t just hallucinate watching this a bunch on VHS!
*have* you folks done an episode on Erin Brockovich? Sarah's mentioned her a few times and I only know her through the movie! would love to know her life too.
Mike. I always ask myself if you're read any of the historic novels from Hilary mantel (i remember you quoting her. She has a lot to day about the royal family andcthe Circus they are trapped in). She has 4 really really great historical fiction novels, a place of greater safety about french recolutionarys (danton and Robespierre amongst them) and the triology abput thomas cromwell. She seems to have done a great Job researching and portraying tudor England and the absolute Horror a royal court is/was, according to historians. I tell all people to read her books and would love to hear of you have any thoughts in them
Hi, you got me very interested, may I ask which of her books would you recommend reading first?
Just wanted to drop two insights. 1.In the show I think they do reference a bit of the self harm. There’s a scene where the queen says something along the lines of your wife is doing things to herself and everyone knows it and its because you keep cheating basically. 2. With the Diana “earning her affair” thing, Its not quite like she had to “earn” the affair, because the information of her having affairs had already been given by Charles sister (scene where the queen asks the sister “how bad” it is really is or something and she says “worst than the papers say, Diana has almost a revolving door of men going in the house and everyone knows about Charles and Camila .” It is after that when the “Diana tries to safe the marriage” plot comes in, which ends by Diana saying something like: “he wanted me to fail”. And that at least to me managed to convey a little bit that dread of “I was doomed from the start” realization :( (Also your podcast has been one of my most important companions this year. Thank you both so much for your incredible hard work, amazing research, sarcastic sense of humor and the loviest mix between objectiveness and kindness. Congratulations on Why are dads and Maintenance phase, love them both)
Good catch on the self harm. Sort of tragic that the only acknowledgment is from the queen and her basically saying “like whatever silly nonsense self harm stuff she does” but again, more illustrative of the queen’s role
in the British class and imperial system.
Hi guys, If you ever do royal stuff again you should have huy lemmey from bad gays pod on because he knows a ton of the gossipy stuff while also having a really informed anti-capitalist analysis of the royals role
I also cannot watch horror movies, but love to read the plots on wikipedia. I would 100% listen to Sarah explain horror movies to me.
There is a podcast called Ruined that has Halle watch the horror movie and tell her friend (and us) Alison about it. You might enjoy!