PATRON TAKES - Star Trek: First Contact

I know I'm super late posting my thoughts and this comment section is pretty dead, but with work being so busy and a tragic week where we lost both Walter and Patrick, I'm only now finding the time. I didn't get around to posting a patron take in time, but I would have said something like this. "While I appreciate everything this movie does to sell the Borg as a near unstoppable techno-zombie plague, and in turn the use of them as a vehicle to explore Picard's PTSD, I often feel the other half of the movie is overlooked. Given the release of the movie was so close to the 30th anniversary, I think it was the perfect time to show humanity's first contact with the vulcans. After 30 years I think it was an inspired choice to finally tell that story, to show us the moment that effectively serves as a bridge between the world of Star Trek and our own. Voyager had Flashback, and DS9 had Tribbleations, and I think First Contact served as TNG's tribute to Star Trek on the 30th anniversary." This movie arguably is the start of a whole new chapter of Trek. New Enterprise, new Borg, new uniforms, and a ton of new lore. Starting with the updated Borg, the makeup and prosthetics are light years ahead of the TNG borg. I love how armored they look and how menacing they are when advancing on the crew. Yeah we saw them adapt to phasers in TNG, but apart from Lore's borg, they never had any ranged weapons, and they never really clearly defined what would happen if they got too close to you apart from them being strong enough to knock you back. Sure it was bad news when the phasers stopped working and they were boxing the away team in on the cube in BoBW, but what were they going to do? Grab the away team? Hit them? When we saw the drone grab that one crewman and shoot those 2 tubes into his neck, and then SECONDS later he's turning into a borg, it really does make them a lot more terrifying. On the one hand the fact they were able to destroy the cube (a massive step up from the Wolf 359 fleet barely slowing it down), and subsequently destroy the sphere like it was nothing, it could seem like the Borg got massively nerfed. However they just shifted the kind of threat the Borg posed. All it took was a handful of drones getting onto the ship and everything went to hell very quickly. Half the ship was assimilated before they knew what was happening. If any trace of them survives, the threat remains. As for the borg queen, I can understand why some people don't like the concept and prefer the borg have no individual representative(even though Locutus was arguably the prototype for the idea), I agree that a hive mind/disembodied voice of the collective would not have made a good villain for this movie. As it stands, Alice Krige did a phenomenal job making the Queen a memorable and compelling antagonist. I actually do really like the new uniforms for the most part, though I wish there was a belt to break up the solid black below the shoulders. Similar to the comment on the reaction video talking about peacetime vs wartime starship design, I think these uniforms are reflective of a more tactically minded starfleet. In light of all the threats facing starfleet, maybe best not to have bright colored uniforms painting a bullseye on your officers during away missions. As for the Enterprise E, it's my favourite Star Trek ship design. I get that the interior isn't as cozy or iconic as the D, but the exterior is gorgeous. The ship looks fast sitting still. I love the swept back nacelle pylons reminiscent of the Constitution refit. With the placement of the impulse engines and the elongated warp nacelles, it also bears some resemblance to the Excelsior class. Then there's the fact there is no neck, and the saucer and engineering sections sit right on top of one another just like Voyager(not to mention having the EMH and bio neural circuitry). And of course it uses the quantum torpedoes that debuted on the Defiant. It's the fastest and most advanced ship in the fleet, and while it has some very large teeth, it's not a warship like the Defiant. There are spacious crew quarters and holodecks aboard. It's still an explorer like the Galaxy class, just built with potential threats more in mind, hence no civilians onboard. As for the interior, I can't say I disagree with the criticisms. The bridge is very functional as a command center. Plenty of consoles and work stations to run the ship, but it's a very "busy" design. There's not really a coherent design language to the layout. I can close my eyes and picture almost every detail of the Galaxy class bridge, it's just so iconic and memorable. Same for the TOS Enterprise, the Defiant, and Voyager. The E's bridge never sticks in my head, which might be partly the design, and partly the limited screen time. I will say though, there is a Star Trek game where you can walk around in the Enterprise E between missions. You can go to engineering, sickbay, the main shuttle bay, crew quarters and lounges, and a few other areas. When it's not half assimilated and at red alert, it's a lot more inviting. Yeah it's not all the warm colors of the D's corridors, but also not the drab grey of Voyager's. Somewhere in between. In full lighting, there's a fair bit of color. As for Lily and Cochrane, I do like both characters and the role they play in the movie. Wanting more screentime for the main cast is valid, though I'd sooner make the movie longer than cut anything to make room for it. These 2 characters are essentially modern humans. Sure it's set almost 70 years after the release of the movie, but they talk, behave, and have motivations that are pretty relatable to most people today. They're not the polished 24th century characters we've known. I think that's useful in a couple ways. For Lily I think she had to be the one to confront Picard. Yes Troi or Crusher could have confronted him, but they're caught up in the same 24th century echo chamber. Picard was being rather arrogant in the conference room scene. He's so used to thinking that in the 24th century humans have outgrown pettiness and revenge, and because of that he can't see what he's becoming. It took a "primitive" 21st century human calling him out for demonstrating the very character flaws he thought humanity had outgrown to snap him out of it. Then you have Cochrane who at first has the very relatable motivation of wanting to get rich and retire. We can all understand that. He's just trying to carve out a life for himself. But then slowly over the course of the film, he starts to buy into the vision of the future the crew has been trying to sell him on. He starts to understand things can be a lot better if enough people step up and make it happen. And as to developing warp drive in this mountain camp, I assume a lot of the science and fabrication took place in a lab in some city. However using a retired Titan II rocket to get to orbit comes with certain implications. ICBM silos aren't usually in the downtown core, so what we see in the film is just the launch site. Cochrane didn't build a warp drive in a cave with a box of scraps. Both characters I think serve as avatars for the audience to immerse themselves in the 2 halves of the story. Lily being thrust into the horror of a borg invasion, and Cochrane learning to look beyond personal gain to realize a better future. I'm glad you both acknowledged how good the actual first contact scene is in the discussion. Star Trek has inspired so many people over the years, and we'd all love to live in that world. But there was always this huge chasm between where we were and the world that Trek showed us. They could have gone the route of having Cochrane's warp flight be the culmination of of decades of international cooperation, with Earth already being halfway toward that Trek future. Instead it happened just a few years in the wake of humanity hitting rock bottom. The vulcans found us at our worst, just a decade past having killed over half a billion of our people. But even for someone as jaded and self centered as Cochrane, the experience is transformative. Seeing Earth from space, being the first human to go faster than light, and shortly after being the first man to shake hands with an alien, he starts to understand the possibilities. Knowing we're not alone forced humanity to get it's act together. I think showing humanity in such a sorry state leading up to first contact is actually a very hopeful message, because it gives us a sense that if those people can figure it out, maybe we can too. In closing I just want to say Jerry Goldsmith absolutely cooked with the soundtrack. First Contact is my favourite Trek film, and I stand by that.

I’m here for the Patrick Stewart wants to be Jean Claude Van Damme riffing

Gimmie the swarm baby

There was a great short story that won an award as part of a context to explain the origin of the Borg, Basically this species which was all white bald humanoids in the delta quadrant had advanced tech but were in a war and advanced biological weapons were used. A scientist who was working with nanites and AI had his daughter infected by one of these weapons were the virus would adapt and evolve and hide from all treatments. So he programmed these nanites to cure the disease and instructed them to not stop when she was apparently cured, but till she was healthy to the point of perfection. So the naninites fight the disease but it keeps adapting, and they have to replace part of her organic biology with tech to heal her. Even after she is cured, they see she is not "perfectly healthy" since she is an organic being who will die, and no matter how they adjust her she is not invulnerable. So the nanites and the AI infect the computer system and start spreading through the computers of the world, and build more nanites and start infecting and transforming people. So now, even though the individual girl may not live forever, she will be "perfect" as part of this super organism where she is the queen all the drones serve, and she can be reconstituted anywhere. of course, "perfect" is not a state but an aspiration, so as the world is all becoming this cybernetic hive mind creature, it launches ships to bring the rest of the alien world knows into itself and be more "perfect" and indestructible. Thats not canon, but I like the origin story and it gives a sense of what the "queen" is, the ending and the beginning, the remnant of where the borg started and where it will always be.

Its not just a theory. Its been confirmed the Sovereign was part of the same line of anti-borg ships they discussed in BOTB that werent ready yet of which the Defiant was the first

You're wrong about Brooks. He cares. Just.. a very unique person.

Hard disagree. They will ignore higher up orders, and Captains get some leeway to do this (provided it works,if it doesnt they are court martialed) but on ship, the chain of command is super well respectedd and they absolutely are loyal to their captain. Again, Allegiance was different because Picard had been acting so strange, his orders made absolutely no sense, he refused to explain them, its just a completely different situation, and its just not true they regularly disobey the Captian's orders in any series unless the rare case where they suspect the captain is under some kind of influence

On the "no one else can question Picard" When they do, they raise their objections, but when Picard makes his final decision, they follow orders. The time you're referring to, it literally wasnt picard and they all had observed him acting out of character and recognized something was off about him. Here, objections have been raised, but Picard has made his orders and final decision clear. As starfleet officers, that's it. It's no longe time to question him, its time to obey orders. Picard is obviously Picard and is not under the influence of anything. They would not try to remove him in this situation, Crusher has no reason to say hes unfit for duty, so yes, only a civilian could call him out at that point, and as I said elswhere, she has a unique perspective of not knowing "PIcard the great man" and only as a man claiming humanity has evolved where she has seen many humans acting like him. Maybe to establish it a little more we could have given Lilly lines to pushback when he says man has evolved where she says something like "I've see the most evolved, compassionate and caring humans torture people" or tell some story about like, how her father wouldnt have hurt a fly and then kills some disarmed prisoners, something to give her perspective a little more clarity. But I still think your perspective is being informed primarily by wanting to see the TNG crew have more of a role then they did

1. Wait, you guys are restoring your full reactions to TOS? Have these come out yet? 2. It's interesting the two best movie villians so far came from the series (Khan and the Borg Queen) and were not original creations. I feel like one thing that has hampered the trek movies is the success of Wrath of Khan, were too much they tried to copy that formula, iconic villian, action heavy, personal stakes, and it just doesn't pay off as well. Consider The first Motion Picture and Wrath of Kahn and all the movies after. Kahn and the Motion Picture were nothing alike but all the movies after Kahn try to replicate that formula to varying degrees of sucess. The one exception is Star Trek 4 which is also considered a top movie. And though you dont like it, it's well regarded, 6 somewhat breaks formula though having the iconic villian. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you go back to TOS, Kirk ALWAYS had a thing with the Klingons which you can argue was inconsistent with his character, but he always seemed to especially dislike the Klingons. Given the Federation's specific history of war with the Klingons which Kirk was alive for partially that would make sense. Also, I feel like when you said they needed to change Kirk's character to make the movies interesting, sort of but I don't feel its unrealitic. In the first hes been behind a desk for a decade, and in the second the movie was designed to subvert the original series in terms of Kirk admiting that he got lucky, that the decisions he would make by himself didnt always pan out, that the womanizing side of him wasn't always ideal. That he could not always win without consequences. I think again, you cant really understand the impact of Kahn at the time, because this was all brand new and audeinces didnt know Spock would be back, so in a way it robably felt like this was Star Trek "growing up" by showing the other side of the adventure fantasy "Kirk as hero who always wins" that had a real impact on fans then, like "Empire" to "New Hope" And this was only the second movie after people had just TOS (and TAS) for so many years. So I don't think its really possible for modern fans to expereince that movie the same way it was expereinced at the time when that was the most recent trek and people didnt know if there would be another, if there was they were only expecting more movies as at the time, Trek WAS Kirk and crew, and it seemed like Spock really was dead in that world and wouldnt be coming back. The movie is such a heavy commentary on the original series, without having lived with that for years it just doesn't hit the same way.

Spock was more like over 200 years later

The "pig people" are the Tellarites, but as I said, based on the description of Cochrane's first warp flight from the TOS episode it seemed like he travled to Alpha Centuria and meant some unknown species there. We can retcon that by thinking they were referring to some later trip he made to Alpha Centurai after he became a big deal, and they were combining that trip with First Contact or someone on the enterprise crew got their history mixed up and conflated the two into one though that would seem unlikely. I guess you just have to think they were mentioning two separate famous things he did together. Also interesting from that episode. Cochrane apparently looks much older then he was supposed to be here I guess from radiation and the war, so his restoration to a younger age by the Companion also chnged him to a healthier version of his body that he never actually expereinced, which retcons that TOS episode in an interesting way, not only is he young and healthy forever but he never expereinced his body like that, hes about the same age here as he was there, maybe a little younger there.

Interesting note. In non-canon sources, it was widley established by fandom that Vulcans were not the first contact, that had never been official but some who were big into the "secondary canon" didn't like this. I think there is a line from the TOS episode with Cochrane suggesting something different happened- he flew to Alpha Centurai (the closest star) and made first contact there. of course since, we've never heard of a species from Alpha Centurai and there seems to be a seperate human settled planet there. But I believe originally there were some aliens other then Vulcans that Cochrane met there as was established by many novels and comics based on the line from that episode. The super nerdy fans were bothered by the retcon. Of course in the original trek bible the Vulcans were conquered, either by Earth or Earth had to rescue them because they were so non-violent. There is a comic of Harlan Ellison's version of "City on the Edge of Forever" where this made explicit. The only remaining reference is a brief line by McCoy to Spock in a season 1 episode "that's why your people were conquered" which nobody seems to bring up. Aligning it with the modern canon, we have to assume Spock's specific nation was conquered in the Sundering (the vulcan civl war that lead to logic being adopted) It seems a bit odd that McCoy would know Vulcan history like that but presumably he and Spock talked about Spock's specific history before. Anyway, a note on the reaction at the time. Some people sort of had a "sigh" about it being the Vulcans and didnt like they felt it was retconned to be the most "obvious" race and felt this didnt really line up with Spock being the first Vulcan in starfleet which was well established

well, the Borg fucking up Cochrane's ship kind of already altered the timeline so I guess they figured the tribble is out of the bag

I think Cromwell was so heavily featured because he is probably not someone you expect on the convention circuit. If you're someone who goes to these, you expect and are used to main cast members, but Cromwell was not someone you are expecting. You've heard all the stories and anecdotes and jokes and questions from the main cast they always gets (trek is great for an actor in this sense you have a lifetime gig at the convention circuits though it must be weird telling the same stories and answering the same questions about the same seven years of your life for the rest of your life) but Cromwell offers something people haven't heard from before

One thing about James Cromwell is he became hugely respected as a actor after this movie (Babe, LA Confidential). He was sorta a late bloomer. But I think his post Trek upgrade probably had something to do with his high billing at Star Trek Las Vegas.

Fun fact: musical comedian Bo Burnham did a song where he was doing a reaction video to the song he'd just sung.

I just don't see any of our future-based characters walking in and yelling "Bullshit!" It's not 24th Century nature. But I also think that kinda harsh talk was what Picard needed to hear. I would not have accepted Beverly or Deanna saying "You're full of shit Picard!" Or getting as angry at him as Lilly did. It woulda rang false to me. In past confrontations there was dressing downs, indignation, exasperation and disappointment, but not outright anger. And Lilly was Angry here.

Well, at the beginning of Wrath of Khan, Josh says "I like these new uniforms!" .....

"Do you hate or accept the Borg Queen concept?" Is the Tuvix (polarizing) question of the TNG movies. These are the most fun meta questions for the fandom, imho. And someday, it will be about a theme song.

I was curious...Mark Lenard was 7 years older than Leonard Nimoy according to IMDB. Useless comment in response to this video. LOL

IS Spock the first Vulcan in Starfleet? In TOS "The Immunity Syndrome" wasn't there a whole Starfleet ship crewed by Vulcans that got wiped out?

Alex: "What did they do for a year" in reference to the crew of Ent-E Well they a year long shakedown and testing, all those things that Enterprise A and B were supposed to do but the movies kept interrupting....

I liked the movie, thought it was well done. Now, please get to S3 of the X-Files, lol.

When I was 6, my baseball coach took the whole team to see The Motion Picture after a game. I fell asleep.

I totally think those who love what they did with Picard in this film vs. those who think it stretches the character too far have completely valid takes. It’s just a matter of personal preference. Just for the sake of argument, I would submit that if it had been, say, Riker who had been Borgified and Picard had killed him 5 seconds later, “Well, it was an extreme situation and Picard eventually got over his thirst for revenge and came to his senses, and he’s good now" would not be a satisfying way to deal with that. It’s only because he kills a Redshirt that we can feel that way and sweep it aside.

Great work guys, looking forward to you further dissecting your discussion of First Contact over the whole of November!

Alex: “How did the federation get formed?” Don’t worry, boys. We’ve got a long road, getting from here to there…

One thing this reminded me of that I didn't question back then but dislike now: Picard hearing the Borg in his head. I don't like this idea of him still being like 1% Borg or however it might be described. Beverly unassimilated him after The Best of Both Worlds, and I'm not a fan of either explanation, either she 'missed something', or the retcon that Borg tech is so sophisticated that A) It's basically indistinguishable from human biology (like Cylons in Moore's BSG) and B) that Beverly couldn't figure that out and remove it.

You often say you want to have the same experience as we „veterans“ had in real time. But you can‘t. The TOS movies were no „bonus“ for us. They were all Trek there was and nobody had an iidea untill TNG that Kirk and crew only were the beginning. Nobody had an idea that Trek would have a future after „Enterprise“ ended. You can only understand that when you will end your journey and there is still no new show on the horizon.

My issues with this movie aren’t the biggest gripes, I don’t like the strobing, the Zephram story, and the movie just doesn’t hold me, I find space battles boring.

I agree on the Borg Queen being kind of a questionable idea. Kind of hard to not see that. BUT Alex's explanation for why you needed a villain if you want a Borg movie makes perfect sense. For all we know the writers had that same conversation.

Star Trek: Execution, I like it. Reminds me of Lessons or Rejoined, how romance episodes aren't my cup of tea. But, do it well enough and even I can enjoy them. It does help to rewatch them with a love puppy like Josh.

Hey Josh, just to reply to your comment on my comment on the Ent-E; it being a more combat focused vessel instead of a luxury liner because of the Borg and Dominion threats were mentioned by both the concept and production designers, as well as from Moore and Braga. So as much as I'd like to say i made it up in my head cannon, I can't.

To me, this movie was basically "Star Trek meets Aliens", as in Jim Cameron's movie. The look of the Borg, the queen, how they change the ship with a new environment, etc. Makes for a good action movie. I'm sure Gene Roddenberry would have raised hell about this script as not being Star Trek, but I enjoyed it and despite being a long-time Star Trek fan, it doesn't bother me.

I'm looking forward to the livestream marathon where you rewatch all of your discussions and discussions of your discussions of this movie.

The guys did an excellent joy during these three discussions (post-reaction, a week later, patron takes) navigating and working though all the various feelings associated with this movie. Sometimes it feels like they are trying to justify their initial reactions. This time it felt like there was a lot more give-and-take, even as they mostly keep the same opinions.

I agree with you about the Borg and Bees. I am not as off-put by there being a queen borg.

You want top billing, you got to have a good agent.

There's actually video footage of the thing with Avery Brooks, it happened during an interview at the premiere I think. he made a whole bit of it saying something along the lines of "as far as I knew it was just parked outside the station where I always leave it; and then the next thing I'm finding out Worf has gone and trashed it" Edit: What I'm thinking of it turns out is Avery Brooks recounting the story in one of the interviews he gave for the behind the scenes features on one of the DS9 box sets

I don't think it was ever mentioned anywhere that Spock was the first Vulcan in Star Fleet.

Fair points on my comment. I think I meant more like what you said -- who else would the producers have *let* go toe-to-toe with Picard. Obviously a lot of other regular characters have done it in the past. I think Lily works here because Picard has to explain his history with the Borg, which he wouldn't have to with another character. That makes him slow down just enough that he starts quoting classic literature instead of blowing up the ship.

I think I will push back on what was said about my comment. I completely see where you are coming from. The problem with your argument actually makes my point. A bee hive does have a queen but the queen does not make any decisions, does not control the other bees, and only has one job lay eggs., that is all. The hive mind IS the worker bees. They do what they do as a collective and pure reaction. Now we know the Borg never did things by instinct. What they did was an actual idea of an individual. I hate that. It could have been done better. If the movie said the Borg queen evolved from the whole I Borg episode. That there was chaos because of Hugh. Then I love this movie even more.

First?