UNCUT - Things Past (DS9 S5E8) | Star Trek Journey 437

To spin back to Necessary Evil for a second, when Kira killed a Cardassian that was involved directly with the occupation, Vaatrik, who was a collaborator of the regime, was it murder? It depends on the position of whoever you ask. The Cardassians would say yes, it was an illegal killing. The Bajorans would say no, it was a legitimate killing in an active war / resistance effort against an occupying force. For Odo, it's a bit more black and white. Though still, he didn't actively try to kill them, it was negligence. I would say his hands are much bloodier than Kira's, so I understand her response here as opposed to Odo's in Necessary Evil. The simple math to me is, what's worse, that 3 truly innocent souls were executed because of the negligence and apathy of a chief of security responsible for finding out the truth, or, that a collaborator was accidentally killed in an effort to rid Bajor from tyrannical, generational subjugation? I'm not even sure the latter is immoral. The former is. Which is why I find it curious when people label her actions as murder, because that is, essentially, adopting the Cardassian perspective. But per the episode, it's very good. Necessary Evil imo is still better (but that's no knock on this one).

Neverwas too crazy about this episode. It's cool I guess and I don't skip it but it's not Top Tier or even passable Trek IMO It's not horrible though and not even skippable. It's passable

I think Kira holds ODO in such high regard she’s blinded to any imperfections, thought it totally believable. She did mention that everyone got dirt on thier hands that went thru this

One... long... in cred ib ly un bro ken sen tence moo ving from top ic to top ic... quite hypnotic.

Odo is a Collaborator. & he’s no Oscar’s Schindler either. Odo ligitimized the Occupation as a Cardasian token. Kira’s personal relationship blinds her to the reality. If you notice? Sisko is not surprised by any of it.

Instead of ending with Kira looking down on Odo in judgement, the last shot should have had her sitting across from the constable, touching his hand, to reassure him things will be all right, for both of them.

Marc sells the 'well intentioned' absolute evil so well. No doubt if the Bajorans had simply accepted their place he would genuinely have been a benevolent plantation owner to this inferior child race. And let's not forget that Garak was defending the occupation as well. YOU JUST CAN'T TRUST THOSE DAMN SPOONHEADS!

i never liked the excessive amount of telling, not showing at the start of this episode.

doesnt risa count as dax episode?

i dont think kira had right judge Odo at end, afer how she assassinated that shop owner years ago in Necessary Evil

I liked when they first arrive on Terrak Nor and Garek is asking all the questions the audience is going to ask, and Dax is like, sorry I'm out of bullshit explanations, just go with it.

"is that red from that 70s show" ... wait... have these guys not seen Robocop? Edit: (5 seconds later) ah they have... phew.

Dukat "The bajorans, well.....they're like my children. And like any good father, every once in a while I have to execute a few of them as an example to the others when they misbehave. But you have to understand, I do this out of love" And you're about right on the timeline. Kira killed Vaatrik in 2365, so during TNG S2, and these 3 men were executed in 2366. As an aside, Starfleet started designing the Defiant in that same year, which would mean before the borg came back in BoBW(right at the tail end of said year), so even the events of Q Who was a wakeup call for starfleet. I actually take a different view of the end of Necessary Evil. While obviously they hadn't planned this episode 3 seasons earlier(2x8/5x8), after Kira asks if Odo will ever be able to trust her the same way again, and he looks up at her, and then hangs his head. In light of this episode that could be interpreted as Odo contemplating what answer she would give to the same question if she knew about the events of this episode. Now to be clear, what Odo did was clearly far worse than what Kira did. Yes, arguably it was a mistake or negligence on his part, but 3 innocent people died and he knows he didn't try nearly hard enough to find the truth. Kira did murder Vaatrik, but the guy was a collaborator with blood on his hands, not innocent in the least. And of course it's 1 vs 3 deaths. While I think Necessary Evil was somewhat better written, the direction and performances here are fantastic. One area this episode outshines NE however is Rene's performance. Nana's performance in NE was good, but it didn't blow me away. I think Rene does a superb job selling Odo's guilt, his desperation to change "Thrax's" mind even though this already happened and can't be changed. I really buy into Odo being truly haunted by this event, and the fact he doesn't deny his complicity surely helped Kira accept this was a tragic mistake on his part. A+ episode

"Odo, you're being a dumbass." C'mon, you know you wanted to hear it.

Kira and Odo's reactions in both episodes are perfect depictions of how people can react when they find out that people they love are not as rosy as they have them built up in their minds. They feel personally affronted to degree and react maybe a little more over the top than they would if it was someone they weren't close to.

I suggest a rewatch. Now that you know that Kurtwood Smith's character is actually Odo, watch it again and imagine Odo saying those lines. It's easy to see Odo in those lines... Haha! I wrote this before I got to the takes.. Great minds!

You know, eight minutes in has the longest in-universe explanation for why they used their regular cast members in a "I'm in a new body" episode EVER.

I didn't remember a lot of this episode but loved it. I was worried Josh's trailer was tricking me into thinking it was a better episode than it was. Peter Allan Fields didn't have his Producer contract renewed after Season 2. He was still free to submit freelance scripts, however. This was Garak's first appearance after his 6 month prison sentence for sabotage and assaulting Worf in "Broken Link".

Fun fact: This is the first onscreen use of the slur 'spoonheads', and it was an in-joke, as for years that was the on-set term for the aliens used by the crew, ever since their first appearance in TNG.

Actually, in DS9 the actors were given unusual input into the direction of their characters. There are several examples where the actor said "my character wouldnt do this" and they changed the script. Dont know that it applies to this episode, but this was generally true. This one is great. My only very minor thing- the dialogue where Odo asks where Garak, a simple tailor, got a Cardassian code. Odo already knows Garak was a big deal member of the Obsidian Order so this line of dialogue struck me as a bit odd.

I’m glad Alex is able to stay spoiler free for the most part. It’s a shame you guys can’t read comments without the possibility of spoilers.

Kira also says, “I guess the truth is that anyone who lived through the occupation had to get a little dirty.” That seems like a slightly more direct reference to Necessary Evil than “I’m not perfect.”

I also thought you were spot on about Dukat. He believes his own illusion that he was a father figure to the bajorans. And we learn Naprem jwasn’t the only one he took as a kept woman. He really thought he loved her but he has a very twisted idea of what love is. He believes his own story but his story isn’t true.

I do recommend rewatching this. Thrax is doing Ofo - he even harrumphs at one point early on. The actor is imitating Odo but in a way that you can miss early on but is obvious in the rewatch. Great performance. And his yelling in the jail and reading out sentences to the other prisoners shows how swamped he was. Odo was new to the Job, wanted order, but was already established as wanting fairness as well (at least with Kira). But being swamped led him to make a *human* error. If he hadn’t made that error and discovered it just a few days after, would he have ended up being the man of justice consistently?

I'd gladly watch a boring conference episode.

I recently thought about how time traveling to alien races' histories is severely underutilized in Star Trek. Obviously, we keep going back to Earth's past so they don't have to build new sets, but while watching the reaction, I realized this episode is something in that vein.

Great discussion, guys! The "It has been my observation..." moment is what really does it for me in this one. Great writing and performances. Thought the moment where he literally has blood on his hands was a little overkill. Not as good as Necessary Evil, but then how many episodes are?

I like that Josh said that this episode "executes well" given the conclusion of the story haha.

My personal issue with Kira's reaction, had more to do with the fact that she seemed shocked he could have made such a mistake. If he was capable of letting a guilty person walk free, it is not even remotely hard to imagine that he could have condemned the innocent as well. But it could be equally possible it was because Odo kept it to himself and it destroyed her image of him as a paragon. It's like finding out that the Priest that lives next door who always helps out and participates in his community and neighborhood, just got cuaght with three bodies buried in his back yard.

An easy S for me, Rene and Kurtwood Smith's acting is superb, great story, fantastic execution.

SPOONHEADS?

Great episode and I really like the way they use this premise to tell a story whilst the Cardassian's were occupying Bajor. It's a heavy episode with great dialogue, and even some humour for levity.

Watching Dukat in this episode, you gotta remember that Odo had ZERO first hand knowledge of anything Dukat was doing with that woman elsewhere on the station, during the original timeline. And since they're all "in the link" together, and Dax had to go SOMEWHERE, the shared illusion had to create "bonus content" (so to speak) to fill in his memory gaps for her. Since they're all sharing minds, and all four of them have a pretty solid understanding and awareness of who and what Dukat is (Odo and Garak especially, Sisko fairly thoroughly, Dax less so, but still decently, from her limited interactions with him plus regularly talking to Sisko as his best friend), you could therefore speculate that they likely ALL contributed to the Dukat she found herself interacting with. Now, one might suggest that, even combined, they don't know him well enough to make him so spot-on to the original guy. However, the fact that he was so accurate to the real thing speaks more to the fact that Dukat is not, by and large, a very complex guy, rather then them having some kind of unrealistically detailed awareness of him. For all his self-righteous pseudo-intellectualism and claims to be better and kinder and more honorable than other Cardassians, the reality is that he's just a predictable, arrogant, sadistic narcissist, and not even a particularly well-polished one. Charismatic, sure, and he does have layers . . . but even those layers are paper thin, and he uses them more to disguise his true self, rather than embracing them as his better qualities. In the end, he's not fooling ANYBODY, and all four of our participants have always seen right through him and know how he'd act. Hence, the "dream" Dukat is EXACTLY like what you expect of the true character, and I think that's pretty hilarious! All four of them put their heads together to create a mental satire of Gul Dukat . . . and what they got was a slimy, creepy, brutal sex offender with unlimited authority and a facade of gentility. in other words, best they could do was ACTUAL Dukat!

“Garak, former Cardassian opressor” so was he an oppressor of Cardassians or a Cardassin who was an oppressor or both….

Idk if it’s because I’ve been watching a lot of horror movies this month but this episode it’s creepy

Dax has been a dude plenty of times already. Loved the white light through the windows instead of space at the end too.

I wanna see the conference as well!

Dukat over Nog as best non-main cast member character? I think, personally, I probably have to give it to Garak, but it is a *tough* choice when we’re talking about DS9.

S. Pure simple S.

I'm gona give this one an A+ on psychological horror vibes. The cinematography is FANTASTIC, the score is appropriately eerie, and the core plot could easily be re-worked into a Silent Hill game! There are things keeping it from an S. Mostly, I did think the reveal that Thrax was Odo was painfully obvious. Also, is it just me or did Avery sounded like he was sleep-walking through the episode? Even his eyes looked tired throughout. Normally I adore his acting style, but...something seemed off with him. Finally, while I see your point about Necessary Evil, I feel that WAS the point yet unspoken between Odo and Kira and they BOTH knew it. I feel this is better than mentioning that episode directly.

I love Garak's not-so-subtle insinuation that he could have run the Occupation better than Dukat. That Cardassian ego is really something.

My favorite Star Trek episodes are the ones that could be really good theater plays, and this fits the bill. The scene with Thrax in Odo's office when Thrax is using all the arguments Odo used seven years ago, and Odo is trying to counter with all the guilty thoughts he's had about the investigation since that day — and the whole time, the station behind Odo is so darkly lit that it looks like he's just sinking into blackness. We even get a Hitchcock zoom at the end of the scene to underline the breakdown. It's art.

What better way to celebrate Canadian Thanksgiving than with a little bit of repressed trauma.