UNCUT - ...Nor the Battle to the Strong (DS9 S5E4) | Star Trek Journey 430
Comments (93)
I agree. The guest in the hole was.... "fine."
Alex, to quote Solid Snake, "War has changed."
Here is the last scene you two are asking for. It was cut in the final version of the script: BASHIR: (visibly upset) Jake, I am very disappointed in you. I can't believe you would willingly mislead me! JAKE: I'm really sorry, Julian. It's inexcusable to run like that and leave you behind. I don't know what to say. BASHIR: What? No, not that! The conference, Jake. I can't believe that you misled me about the conference! I thought you understood my position on the effect of amino acid re-sequencing and disulfide shuffling vs. quantum dynamics on prion replication. You were taking notes! Cut to black.
A Tripple A episode with vibes of MASH. And a great Jake episode.
I really do enjoy the look on Bashir's face, laying in the infirmary bed, staring at the ceiling before he spots Jake.. He's thinking "how do I tell my commanding officer I got his son killed, oh fuck... my career at DS9 is over".
I'm surprised about the glazing in the comments / takes on the guest actors. Hole guy and phaser foot guy were kind of mid. I thought the writing was good, but I weren't sold on either of their performances.
Thought all the performances were great
Gallows humor...famous among military servicemembers, law enforcement, & public safety personnel.
Always enjoyed this episode, even if it's not perfect. Like the last one, I think it warrants an A tier. Great to see a proper Jake focused episode at last. Jake going through this whole experience and discovering how he handles himself in a life and death scenario also pays off a line from Explorers. He was saying there he wanted to stay on DS9 because "you can only write about what you've experienced". Certainly his experiences here will shape his writing going forward. Also some good scenes of Sisko climbing the walls knowing Jake is in danger and being unable to do anything about it. I like that Terry is getting more these days than the contract filler scenes they were giving her for so long. Thought it was a great scene in engineering when she was relating to worrying about he kid from a previous host(Audid?). Also the final scene where Ben praises Jake for having the courage to tell the whole world he ran away still gets me a little bit. I do agree the episode has some small problems. The writing does rise above the mostly serviceable performances, and the "bombardment" scene is very unconvincing. What were they getting bombed with, firecrackers? At least in SG-1 they'd use these big gas "mortars" for explosions on the ground. IIRC they would bury a thick section of pipe, and put a bag of gasoline on top of a small explosive, which when detonated would spray the gas and ignite it at the same time, creating an impressive fireball. I think that's how they did it. Anyway, small gripes aside, really enjoyed this one.
A good obscure war movie is 84 Charlie Mopic. It's one patrol during the Vietnam war.
Regarding the doctors all joking about what's going on. Not only do they do that because that's their life. But that attitude reminds me of how people acted when my husband worked in a prison, and also as a 911 dispatcher, and even now to an extent at a wastewater treatment plant. It was the same thing. When you are in a profession that exposes you to all sorts of horrors, gross and terrible things, and difficult situations with people suffering or even dying all the all the time, people there HAVE to develop some sort of desensitivity, and even dehumanization in order to do their job. I imagine it's the same way with cops and nurses too, or any profession like that. You have to remove yourself from the full gravity of the situation, otherwise it becomes too much, and you experience it the way that Jake does. People who are able to do those jobs are able to sort of compartmentalize reality and distance themselves from it.
It’s Star Trek. It’s M*A*S*H. it’s my two favourite things. It’s an *S*.
usually people want MORE dominion episodes xD i honestly often in rewatches skip everything but the dominion episodes xD dominion is the best
People would shoot their own leg, just like this guy did, in Vietnam. I heard that a lot of the imagery and scenarios in this episode were directly inspired by Vietnam. I forget exactly who, but I heard some staff members actually served there, so episodes like this that show the grittiness of war, do so by incorporating a lot of their own Vietnam experiences.
I feel this is an episode people don't feel allowed to dislike because of the subject matter. Nothing in it is earned. The topic is in no way original, the protagonist's reactions are all the same, the performances mediocre, and where's the extra level? The next step? Raising the questions that these questions raise? Entirely absent. Source work you draw from isn't supposed to be copied 1 for 1, it's a foundation to build the next layer on top of. Which ultimately what Trek is perfect for. What's the point of using the setting, if you don't use the setting? The point of Sci-fi is to tell stories you can't otherwise. And that doesn't mean ray guns and rubber aliens of the week, but it does mean scales and concepts that otherwise can't be explored in the contemporary. Remember the 'Husnok' attacking that alien and his fake human wife on that desolate planet? The pacifist alien who in a moment of grief didn't just kill the Husnok attacking his settlement, but killed ALL Husnok, everywhere? That's no longer a generic story of a crime of passion and later remorse - the scale of the deed and the tormenting remorse is uniquely explored. Can you forgive someone whose crime is truly unfathomable, if their unrelenting guilt is likewise proportional? Remember when the Crystaline entity chases the crew and colonists into a cave, and they emerge to find the planet is lifeless? That's scale and stakes that elevate the later decision to kill or spare the entity. Sure you can coexist with a whale, but can you coexist with a whale that feeds on worlds? The question has been raised before, but not at the depths that Scifi affords the exploration of. It's the whole point of the setting, and why you write a particular episode for Trek instead of any other show. So -- you want to do a Star Trek 'war' episode where Jake thinks he's prepared, but isn't? Have the victims coming in be mutated masses because the transporter scramblers SCRAMBLED them. Have the hospital they were going to be a 10 mile wide crater, so they divert to a different hospital. And make the ray-guns scary again!! TNG had far more gruesome phaser deaths and disintegrations, so we know both the budget and tech exist. Remember when Riker vaporizes Yuta the Acamarian in 'The Vengeance Factor'? Or the ending to 'The Most Toys', where seeing someone vaporized in agony pushes Data over the edge and commit to homicide? Or the infamous end to 'Conspiracy' back in Season 1? Show that. Have the hospital attacked on day one and have everyone Jake connected with vaporized before his eyes, THEN require him to go on. The audience should be TERRIFIED, so that we understand why someone would shoot themselves in their foot. 'Oh shit, I get it now buddy. I hated you before, but now I'm a little sympathetic' Otherwise I don't get the point of doing a 'I shot myself in the foot' bit, or a 'let me die looking at the sky!' bit, and a 'oh, he's gonna puke! First day?' bit. It's not even derivative, it's just copy-cat. If it is in service of 'these horrors aren't the normal horrors' then that has the additional weight that only sci-fi can allow you to explore, but without it?? Without the elevation to layer on top of these mini-stories, what's the point? That war is hell? Great, it's been done before and done better. And it makes more sense in a Vietnam movie than it does where a charging Klingon that misses his every disruptor shot might stab you with the bat'leth in his other hand, or where puffs of smoke on the ground 3 feet away from you aren't a threat. (Also, people can feel free to clown face -me- all they like. But no doubt it won't feel good for some. After all, I knew what I was doing being a contrarian in a thread so deep in unearned praise, I don't mind knowing how many still don't get it)
Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out. My only gripe with this episode is the same gripe that I had with Looking for Par'Mach in All the Wrong places. And that's that if you're familiar with the source material, The Red Badge of Courage, you'll see that this is pretty 1:1 to that story. This doesn't bother me though because most people today are never going to read The Red Badge of Courage, so this medium has given a lot of people a way to learn those lessons and themes in a way that is actually accessible to them. The stakes don't need to be huge or uniquely sci-fi in order to get the point across. And sometimes, I think keeping everything down to earth is the way to go depending on the subject matter. In this case, since we're seeing this whole thing though the perspective of Jake, an everyday kid, it works that this isn't some huge grandiose example. It shows that things like this can happen to anyone in our own ordinary lives at any time. Not just in a fantastical setting under extreme circumstances. This is meant to hit home. The point of this episode isn't to be larger than life and show us terrifying things that we'd never otherwise encounter. It's to show us part of the reality of actual war. That once your life is at stake EVERYTHING can be terrifying. And yeah, this stuff belongs in a Vietnam movie because they're trying to give people a taste of real Vietnam experiences. Where people there realized that they didn't need a monster to make them shoot themselves in the foot, and that maybe cowards shouldn't be ostracized because deep down, that's what we all actually are. If this kind of stuff doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that the episode's praise isn't unearned. It did a good job of presenting these concepts to an audience who otherwise would have never seen a Vietnam movie, or read The Red Badge of Courage, and therefore would have never gotten the message if this episode didn't exist. And getting messages like that across is another important role of sci-fi, even if those stories have been told before. I think the fact that so many people tend to, from my perspective too, over-praise this one, is actually a testament to the fact that this episode did what it sought to do well. A lot of those people probably don't know that this is a story that has been done before, so this is their first and maybe only exposure to it. And if this episode got the message across to those people, then that's a good thing. Because otherwise, "no one is going to remember anything that's happened here," and those lessons will eventually be lost unless they keep getting retold.
Dudes, Saving Private Ryan for sure, but for the best TV series, hands down Band of Brothers.
I see, we are asking the BOLDian Questions now!
I think this episode actually works a lot better using humans instead of Cardassians. Using Cardassians here would make sense if the episode were about Cardassians, or Cardassian/Klingon culture/politics. But this is a very human story, and I think using any heavily make-uped alien race, like the Cardassians here, wouldn't have added anything. It would have just put a subconscious barrier between the audience and the story. But making everyone human here, doubles down that this is a very human thing. It's not just something that Cardassians or Klingons go through, it's what WE go through. And using all humans here means there's no escape from that.
Oh I thought they meant cardassians instead of Klingons not humans
I think a lot of people assume they would be like the dying soldier on the ground. But what most people never get an opportunity to truly face, is people like that are the exception, not the norm. Most of us would react just like Jake. And what even fewer ever realize, is that's not wrong. Condemning "cowardice" is condemning human nature. I think cowardice is an outdated concept, like condemning a man for crying or showing emotion. Fear is just as valid of an emotion. Survival instinct is real. if you react that way, you deserve compassion, not condemnation for being human.
The USS Farragut was one of the ships that showed up to rescue the Enterprise crew in Generations after the crash.
Never seen Saving Private Ryan!?! Looking forward to that reaction!
@MaxwellDidNothingWrong. You misspelled tedious. Just sayin' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Josh, the runabouts in DS9 are named after rivers on Earth. Notable examples include the USS Rio Grande, USS Yangtzee, and USS Ganges.
Bashir reading Jake’s story at the end just feeling betrayed that Jake was bored by him at the beginning.
Acting is so strange, isn't it? Subjective? Back to Keon Alexander in The Expanse, or Saul Rubinek in The Most Toys, or Joel Grey in The Resistance, or this guest actor here. I too think his performance was excellent. You guys have very particular tastes in actor ability that is even harder to pin down than your preferences in episode type (which I think is mostly clear to me at this point). I do agree that the other guest performers weren't very good, and I could "feel" that they were acting. I didn't get that at all from the guy in the hole with Jake and the water and guts. You know he did look like Gary Busey lol.
Jake and Bashir, exiting the famous Bronson Cave, better known as The Batcave. in this one. Good episode for Jake.
The cave exit Jake and Julian come out of is a very famous cave in Griffith Park in Hollywood where the Batmobile used to famously come out of in the 1960s Batman show. It's been used in a lot of stuff.
I believe the "explosions" were a type of air or steam canons. Safer than actual explosives and the boom sound could be added in post. Probably how they were able to afford so many as well. I agree the budget seemed high for this episode. Interesting since they were so close to Trials and Tribble-ations, which became the most expensive 1 hr episode of Star Trek to date ($3 million). Not a spoiler. They have already seen T&T.
Thing I remember most about this episode is how the local cabal company that aired DS9 that season would use the clip of Jake running and landing on the dead Klingon for their advertising stinger. And only that clip. Really? No beauty shots of the station? No action shots of space ships? No publicity stills of the main cast? Just... Jake running and falling? Strange way of advertising your space opera show, but okay.
@target audience fyi these season 5 uncuts are ending up in the Patreon season 4 playlist… may want to fix that
Thanks
Lesson of this reaction: Never begin to overshare with Josh. The millisecond you turn your back, he’s already sprinted 50 yards in the other direction.
Genuinely a 10/10 episode, I think it completely beats The Visitor in my opinion.
Have to disagree there, but you are welcome to feel that way! I'd give this one an 8.5/10 due to some underwhelming guest actor performances. If they had been better then maybe. The Visitor is just perfection in my opinion.
Ok if they don't like a Jake and Bashir episode I will eat my hat.
Ok good, looks like my hat is safe.
This episode epitomizes why DS9 is great. We see futuristic tech and space battles all the time in Star Trek. It tends to be antiseptic: ships firing lasers and blowing up, people vaporized by a phaser. DS9 isn't afraid to show the nasty side of war, the real, grisly, horrible truth of war, 24th century or not. It doesn't shy away from the traumatic effects it has on those serving. And it's a poignant choice to have Jake connect with the soldier who shot himself. The soldier feels Jake is the only one who treats him normally. That's, of course, because Jake is a coward, too, and won't dare judge another.
Nor should we.
After watching this, yeah, the guest stars hold the episode back from being an all timer
I hope Worf does not read Jake's story...... just sayin'
"Only fools have no fear."
Hmm, I always just assumed the dying guy in the hole had a different uniform because that was the ground-based infantry division uniform. Still Starfleet, just a different sub-category.
Thanks for reading my take. Sorry man, I won't leave a negative emote on anyone else's take (all the cool kids were doing it!). Usually when I write my PT's it's very late in the day, becuase I forgot to do it earlier. I'm usually AT LEAST 8 or 9 drinks deep when I post. I read everyone else's takes and then post mine. So ya...I actually agree that some of guest performances are just average (some are very good). What I like the most is how well they do with the TONE of the episode and how much RESPECT they give to the situation. If they did the episode with half the number of extras, it wouldn't have been nearly as good. The actual hospital was blown up, they had to be cramped in there and bumping into each other. The minute Jake shows up a soldier grabs his shirt and gets blood all over him (more than Blood Oath, lol!). This episode is the perfect example of how all of the little details combine to make the end result greater than the sum of its parts. You know what's crazy? I've never made a "Top 10" of my favorite DS9 episodes (why would I?). As much as I've glazed this one; I don't even know that it would make a Top 10 for me! It would certainly make my Top 26. Top 10?? MAYBE! Damn the lists would be tough for DS9 :)
“But he didn’t say ‘figures’” is an insane pull
Alex might as well tender his resignation now if he doesn't want Dominion episodes. Of course this is a Dominion episode because they started the conflict between the Klingons and Federation
Josh, I think you would also like the movie Patton quite a bit, based on your comments.
In the contest for "Best Trek Kid," Jake isn't the winner. Nog is the winner.
If there had been more episodes like this one in the first 2 seasons, I would not have stopped watching DS9. Some of the dialog was heavy-handed, but overall, a very good episode. A rating.
MASHy vibes! One of my favs! Klingons suck! Make no mistake peace can never last when they’re a bunch of dick heads. Hopper is basically like a Chopper I read an Alien$ novel that had hoppers too.
The two guys in the odd black uniforms with the shoulder stripes - the dying soldier in the pit and the guy who shot his own foot - aren't just local security officers. They are actual Starfleet troops. Enlisted men, not academy graduates. They are non-commissioned officers, like O'Brien, only while he switched to an engineering/ops career path, and now has a low-tier command-grade rank, while they are strictly military personnel. Basically, jarheads, basic grunts. Starfleet is constantly claiming they aren't a military outfit, but the fact remains, they DO have a standing army, they have soldiers. They are just rarely discussed and - 'til this episode - never seen, because Star Trek battles tend to be ship-to-ship combat, and so soldiers, ground forces, are rarely involved. Also note, according to production, the reason the top is bulky and padded and kinda sweater-like is because it's supposed to be a flak jacket of some sort, basic light combat armor.
Great episode! A few nits to pick regarding some of the guest performances, but an incredibly well-written and moving episode. I think anyone that's truly honest with themselves can, at least to some degree, relate with what Jake goes through here.
Alex gloats at us through the screen about there being no mention of "The Ship". First of all, that is irrelevant to his ridiculous complaints about that episode. Second, have you already forgotten the last episode before this one? A story that's followed up on a season later? Like a TON of DS9 story threads (Maquis, Mirror Universe, etc.)? Unless it's a two-parter or something, thus far DS9 hasn't done any heavy next-episode serialization which, I must emphasize, Alex claims not to want from Star Trek. :/
"A story that's followed up on a season later? " 2 seasons later in fact. House of Quark was 3x3
I would have preferred it if the battle had been between the Cardassians and the Klingons, with Bashir stepping in to help regardless. Still, this episode has always made me feel uncomfortable. I think I can put myself in Jake's shoes a bit too well in a situation like that.
If only we had the makeup budget
Terrific M.A.S.H. vibes coming off this episode
The Bolian doctor is played by the rich bully Francis from Peewee's Big Adventure
Just started watching, but I had to come here during the Intro and say: "Nice shirt Josh!"
Jake must suffer.
I understand why Josh mixed up Gul Macet with Gul Dukat. They share a certain resemblance.
They could be twins
This one came in short so they added more character scenes and I think that elevated this episode. Without, relating this to future or past episodes, this was a great dynamic to examine the experience of war... the doctor that has to help anyone by duty & and the journalist that tries to keep his objectifivity. There's another thing I want to mention but I'll wait... but dang, glad I watched this week to week or at least one day later back then... binging DS9 is a swinging emotional 1-2 punch.
The mother in Jadzia’s story about the sick child is Audrid Dax, the fourth Dax host who was „played“ by Quark in „Factets“.
Now that Cirroc is 18 and child labor laws don’t apply, they are making him work!
Fun fact: The etymology for the title of the episode is from Ecclesiastes 9:11 -- The full verse reads: "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all." In short: Human skill, speed, and strength do not guarantee success, because unexpected events and fate affect everyone -- a rather appropriate title given the episodes subject and circumstances.
*those chef kisses*
What is heroism? Turns out it's harder to define than I thought. I love this show for making me think about these things. Really effective commercial break when Jake is frantically running away from the "my guts will spill on your shoes" guy and then we come back to the clean, calm Defiant. You know it's good writing and direction when the normal situations are jarring.
Great episode and two great back to back episodes that couldn't have a greater contrast in tone.
DS9 has some great episode names (that I won't spoil), that's for sure. A few duds, as to be expected - but damn, when they hit they hit. I remember DS9 episodes by the name much more then I do Voyager or TNG.
Based on this reaction you guys would love M.A.S.H.
I love that show
Bashir trying to talk things out with Jake and the aftermath was the best scene of the episode to me. It's a great character moment for both of them. Showing both, Bashir knowing when to back off and Jake standing his ground, even if it ended in him crying by himself. Whatever it takes. I also really liked how Sisko doesn't waste a second to get on the way after getting told that Farragut had been destroyed.
From this point on, a long title very often means a great episode.
Love it. Even Josh is eye rolling Alexs's commentary now!
.....didn't we just have a DS9 yesterday? How long was I asleep??
You’re experiencing nIbpoH? Tell me, have you encountered the number 3 a disproportionate number of times?
When people say DS9 is their favorite show, it's often episodes like this they are thinking about. I don't remember the action from this episode. I remember the character scenes, and Jake's narration being the article he writes at the end is genius.
People who say Voyager is their favorite just watched iy first on UPN as a kid 😅🤣
I think this episode suffers from some unfortunate overacting by the guy who shot himself, the dying guy in the foxhole and alas, Cirroc as well.
Yeah, I could see that. If the rest of the episode is good, i can often give that a pass, but it does tend to stand out.
DS9 is like a novel, unlike other Trek series, the first watch is the hardest watch because you don’t know what will happen
Especially if you have odd expectations or requirements
Guys, those shirts are pretty awesome
DS9 reaction drops will continue until morale improves! (Damn it. Morale has improved.)
The pacing is what impresses me- we get light hearted Par Mach last time so we don't get bludgeoned as viewers...
DS9’s so good at strategically lightening the tension. (So they can bludgeon us all over again next week.)
This is one I've been anticipating for a while
I am afraid we can tell you nothing in any direction
DS9 plays the long game
When I was thinking "What would be a clear winning episode for these two?", this episode came to mind.
2 episodes in the last 24 hours? Best day ever