UNCUT - Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places (DS9 S5E3) | Star Trek Journey 429

Joseph Ruskin who played Tumek was also Galt in the TOS episode The Gamsters of Triskelion (sorry if someone pointed this out before) and was very memorable in that episode

Jadzia was smitten with Worf from the beginning. In Way of the Warrior, Jadzia said, "Yes, but I'm better looking than he was" when she met Worf. I attributed Odo's delivery to Andrew since Andrew is a master of playing things not on the page. Part of the Kira/Miles subplot came about due to chemistry that the actors had. Quark and Grillka were already married. I don't think she is looking for a redo but Quark really wanted to hit it back in their first appearance. And she realized she actually was into Quark.

we have now reached the end of the "jadzia just sleeps with everyone to cuck Julian" part of her arc.

I'm just saying...Keiko was VERY accepting....if Miles played his cards right he could've...well....um..... maybe all three of them should've went on that trip

Alex's many facial expressions throughout were the best part of this reaction. Not sure why you though we wouldn't like this one. It's a great, fun episode, Grilka's return is welcome, Terry gets to turn in her best performance in a few seasons, we have a deliciously awkward story between O'Brien and Kira, and (almost)everyone gets laid at the end. A+, if not S tier. I am glad Josh mentioned not wanting EVERY episode to be like this. Absence makes the heart grow fonder as they say. Regardless of your favourite kind of story, if every single episode is of that kind of story, it's going to get stale over time. I would agree DS9 does a fantastic job telling a wide range of stories that can appeal to an equally wide range of people. As others have said, Worf was 100% helping in order to prove Tumek wrong. He knows it's impossible politically, but if his advice can win over Grilka, and especially if it can work for a Ferengi, then it would easily work for him. As one comment pointed out that, less is expected of Quark given he's not Klingon. Also, while Grilka was clearly not attracted to Quark in the previous ep, and had no regard for Ferengi customs, the fact he put his life on the line to help her earned him a ton of respect and let her overlook much of that. Worf's advice may not have worked so well without that factor helping Quark. As to whether Worf has pursued a klingon woman. K'Ehelyr being 1/2 Klingon would not be much of an issue if she lived as a klingon, but she honestly found klingon society ridiculous. The girl in Birthright was raised in a predominantly Romulan setting. Honestly Dax is probably the most klingon woman Worf has ever been involved with. Definitely a better match than Troi. Glad you guys enjoyed this one.

When it comes to Worf not being a traditional Klingon, Dax is absolutely right. A Traditional Klingon would have never refused Gowron's war on Cardassia, memory wiped Kurn, or helped a Ferengi to court Grilka. But Worf is obsessed with by the book Klingon traditionalism. It's part of his arc to slowly realize that he himself is a contradiction. I have a feeling that the only reason why Worf's courting worked, is BECAUSE it was Quark doing it. Since Quark is a Ferengi, he gets a pass if the way he's courting Grilka is kind of laughable, because first off, Grilka already knows Quark, and second, she appreciates that he's going through all of this effort in order to learn. They know he's going to suck at it, but that's not the point. I have a feeling that Worf's understanding of Klingon courting is literally from a book that he memorized. It would be like if someone today tried to court someone the way we used to in the 1700s. Or if somebody was clearly going off of a playbook when they're trying to make a date with you. He probably comes off a bit corny to actual Klingons who know the traditions, but who also, in practice, probably don't interpret them so seriously.

Exactly K’hlar definitely raped worf And yes she was more human than Klingon

I don't think Keiko is necessarily naive, IT'S POSSIBLE to interpret this episode as Keiko trying (and unsuccessfully) to add Kira a a unicorn into the marriage.

I like this episode a lot. But for me personally, episodes like this are never going to come close to episodes like The Die is Cast that provide payoff to a season or more of larger story buildup. What keeps me hooked to this show is it's larger story and world building. But individual episodes like this are also amazing when they are done well. For me though, I can't go any higher than an A for this one. Mainly because I can't help but compare it to other things. The first is House of Quark, which this is essentially a sequel to. While I love this episode, I like House of Quark more. The second is this story is clearly a Star Trek take on Cyrano De Bergerac, which they've referenced before in TNG too, with some A Midsummer Night's Dream thrown in for good measure. Now like Josh, I don't have a a problem if a story has been done before as long as it is executed well, and it was here. But the Cyrano stuff is done very on the nose here rather than a loose interpretation, and knowing that does make this episode feel more unoriginal compared to a lot of the rest of the show, to the point where it's actually jarring. I actually get pulled out of the story a little whenever I notice something that is 1:1 Cyrano De Bergerac. As for the Kira and O'Brien stuff, the more Midsummer Night's Dream inspired bit, my interpretation was their attraction was something purely subconscious. I always took Kira's words of "in another life" as confirmation of my own interpretation that maybe in a past life, they were married with children in Ireland, and this whole situation was bringing up all of those old soul memories. It's like a dream that you keep remembering and tapping into the emotions of that dream once in a while, but the moment you start to actually analyze that dream and think about it consciously, you realize that that dream makes no sense in your current reality. I don't think Kira and O'Brien were ever in danger of having a full blown affair, or starting a polyamory triad or anything. That's too conscious, and this attraction doesn't work once you make it real and conscious. It was just weird moments triggered by similar scenarios to old memories. Basically, tapping into a fleeting midsummer night's dream because "what fools these mortals be". An episode of the Golden Girls actually kind of did the same thing.

As much as I love it, this episode really, deeply hurts me as a polyamorous person. I’d like to think that, if it was made today, the concept would at least be *addressed*, because they both have the perfect setup and have demonstrated the maturity and security to handle such a topic…but I know it probably still wouldn’t be, because fuck us, we don’t exist, right? So…yeah. It hurts a lot.

"War! What is it good for? Absolutely nothin'!" Quark quotes the 1970 Motown hit song "War" by Edwin Starr.

Worf wasn't helping Quark, he was dating Grilka by proxy. Worf had no chance to be close so he lived his fantasy through a puppet on a string. If he hadn't of ended up with Dax in the end, he would have killed Quark and maybe himself.

I KNEW this one would get you back on the bandwagon for how damn good this show can get. I never get tired of rewatching this one. It is ... glorious!

Shoot, shoot, shoot, mixed up the episode titles. Hope I didn't say anything spoilerish in my deleted comment. Sorry, guys! I should learn not to comment until I've watched the reaction. Anyway, this episode is fine.

People like these CHARACTERS, storylines be damned. People relate to them, want to see good things happen to them, grieve when bad things happen to them, etc. As I've said before, DS9 may not be about exploring strange new worlds, but it does explore the human condition more than any other trek and it does a great job doing it. You'll be surprised at how much you will have connected to these characters when the last credits roll.

A fun watch with some interesting development well played all around. But, by the end of the episode, amidst all the horny giggling, I think I'm right beside Julien in his bemused, resigned exasperation. Still enjoyed the episode.

Worf has been with a half-Klingon/half-human, a half-Klingon/half-Romulan, and a half-human/half-Betazoid. Jadzia is the first non-hybrid we've seen him with.

Best DS9 reaction since "The Quickening"! That was actually fun. "Stakes" don't always have to be plot-driven. Notable character development also introduces stakes. There are different kinds of stakes in shows. I always applaud an episode that has lasting consequences for the plot and/or the characters -- it makes the entire experience more impactful. However, I remain confused why the guys hate big plot/story stakes. Why wouldn't you want a show to tell an overarching story that gives depth, weight, and meaning to a lot of individual episodes? It's just good storytelling! I am also consistently baffled why the guys are always so surprised when DS9 brings back older story threads. This has happened so many times now, yet they're always shocked by it. Why won't you guys give DS9 the benefit of the doubt at this point instead of always coming into episodes expecting the worst? In any case, glad (but not surprised) they liked this one. It's exactly their type of episode, which I very much enjoy too.

I'm glad you loved this one as much as i do, i had a feeling it would be one of your type of episodes.

I see Worf doing this because he took it personal that he was told he didn't know anything about pursuing Klingon women and that bugs him to his core given how much he looks up Klingon culture, especially since he grew up outside it since he was raised by humans. It's as much about personal pride to make him override his disgust toward Quark. And he is so taken with her he would be willing to do anything to try to get closer, even if it's something completely absurd. And I love Dax finally losing her patience and jumping Worf!

I love this episode, and I love really well executed "comfy, zero stakes" episodes, too. Thing is, as Josh says at one point, I would NOT want this show to be mostly that. The setting is too rich with possibilities to be so minimal all the time. Part of what makes it work so well is that it only occurs occasionally as one type of episode. To me, it's the balance with the heavier dramatic episodes, the science-y adventure episodes, and the grand galaxy stakes episodes that make DS9 so rich and rewarding a show.

Everyone gets Kira EXCEPT Odo He can't even be a chair in the room anymore

Top 10 DS9 Episode. I read and watched Cyrano de Bergerac, so seeing the Star Trek Version of it, is amazing.

It is wild how men will help a Ferengi seduce a Klingon rather than go to therapy. I like that we can have fun with Worf's identity issues.

This is the classic Cyrano story, with a twist, fun episode. make you uncomfortable and also make you laugh.

Miles and Kira in another life, whoa... I did not remember that moment at all. That was one of the heaviest scenes I've ever watched, I was shouting for Miles to fucking run lol This would never be my favorite episode, that said, it was thoroughly enjoyable.

Now that was a fun reaction. If you hadn't noticed...ever since Way of the Warrior, Worf goes out of his way not to use Quark's name. "That Ferengi bartender."

It's not 0 stakes, Quark could have died lol

Guys, just be sure to remember the name "Worf", wink wink

It was a somewhat common trope during the time period that this show came out for a man who thought they had no shot with a woman to help another man, always someone they considered unworthy in some way, to get that woman so that they could live vicariously through that other man's success. Given the nature of what you do, I'm hesitant to name specific movies and shows where it appeared, but let's say this episode of DS9 was maybe the sixth time in my young life that I'd come across the plot. Of course, like you said, this is Star Trek. All the previous times, the trope was for the guy with no shot to end up getting the girl. This episode subverted that by having Dax go for him instead.

Some of the best episodes of DS9 have cool long episode titles. So do some of the worst ones.

Relieved the guys liked this one. Was a bit afraid that the 'why is Worf helping Quark" was gonna derail it

Worf is playing Quark like a video game character in this episode. He knows he can't pursue Grilka, but he wants to try and prove he can, so he does it vicariously through Quark.

The tension between Miles and Kira... phew, need a cold shower after watching that

To answer the question "Why does Worf help Quark?" For two reasons. First: because selflessness is the highest form of chivalry. And because the writer is literate and knows Edmond Rostand's "Cyrano de Bergerac" from 1897.

Anyone else having a problem reading the title without singing WOOKIN PA NUB? If you know, you know.

Haven't watched your reaction yet, but watched the after segment... Are you familiar with Cyrano de Bergerac? This episode is definitely a play on that story. Also, if you like Steve Martin, watch his take on it with the movie ROXANNE. You'll love it.

Ahh the iconic Obrien polycule, this episode is so funny to me.

I think it's interesting to note (in script, if not clearly on screen) that the foundations for Kira and Chief having a certain connection/relationship were laid out all the way back in the VERY FIRST EPISODE of DS9: In the scene where the Cardassians have surrounded the station and are preparing to open fire (because Gul Dukat has disappeared into the wormhole, and the Cardassians don't know where he is, but they refuse to accept Kira's explanation because they don't detect any wormhole), and Dr Bashir says he can't believe the Cardassians would actually attack a Federation outpost. In the script and the novelization of the episode, Kira is about to furiously snap at Julian for his naivete (she already doesn't like him because of his whole condescending "frontier medicine" bit earlier in the episode), but the Chief interjects and says "Have you studied the military history of the Border Wars? Ever hear of the Setlik III Massacre?" The script says, in that moment, Kira and O'Brien lock eyes and share an emotion only two Cardassian survivors can understand, and it deeply endeared O'Brien in her eyes. She replies that she assumes he agrees surrender is not an option, and O'Brien smirks and says "You know what they do to their prisoners." They share another look (this one actually made it on screen), and they prep for an attack. It was supposed to be a running theme that - in addition to his regular prejudice against Cardassians, which does frequently crop up subtly and not so subtly throughout the series - O'Brien felt a strong empathy and kinship with the Bajorans. It was supposed to be an aspect of the Storyteller episode, it was supposed to be a justification for why he was so connected with Neela (the Bajoran who tried to kill Bariel in the S1 finale), and it was supposed to crop up here in there with him working well and being buddies with Kira, as well as other Bajoran crewmembers. Ultimately, it was largely left unexplored, mostly because the Bajoran connection was more central to Sisko's arc and character, so that's where they focused. But they did get to bring it back (albeit in a comedic sense) for the pregnancy arc, and it works REALLY well here.

Grilka was at the station to get Financial Help from quark. She needed him to help her with her accounting like he did in house of quark. Because "The Fighting with the federation has cost her a great deal of LAND, Ships, and Warriors". Also when he said he wanted to "AQUIRE" her because "She's worth more than all the latinum in the sector" ... it's to remind her he still a Ferangi . She has to honor and accept his traditions and values too. She has to accept him for who he is , also she is flattered that he "VALUED" her soo much. One of the reasons she likes quark is because he is different/ ferangi. As for Kelar, She was half KLINGON and lived her life more as HUMAN. Like Bellana , she has Klingon DNA in her but she's more Human than Klingon. You were better off pursuing Kelar as a Human than klingon, she only did the klingon stuff to humor "Worf". Grilka is 100% klingon woman / lady from a BIG Klingon House. Born and Raised 100% Klingon. You have to pursue her 100% Klingon Way. Although Quark did throw in 1-5% ferangi way.

This episode is an adaptation of a famous play, Cyrano de Bergerac, which is about an ugly guy with a big nose who writes love letters to help his handsome friend win the heart of the girl he's in love with. It was actually Michael Dorn's idea

Worf has also never tried to court a Klingon woman in the Klingon way before, with all the rituals and pomp. I'm assuming that's how he took the question about "Courting a Klingon Woman" and why he answered "no." You just KNOW he did the more human awkward flirtation, staring, not staring, cozing up to K'Ehylar, stumbling over his words. And that's why she went for him. Can you imagine the number of lingta legs she's had to throw out?

“Getting a little uncomfortable!” - meanwhile I’m hiding behind my cat because I can’t look at the screen 😂

To Alex wondering why he would help Quark. It was to proove, mostly to himself, that he could woo Grillka. He accepts that politics means it's impossible, but he doesn't accept that he is incapable of winning her.

Worf got to prove that OLD MAN WRONG!!! Worf knew Klingon Women soo well that he got Quark Laid... What's a better way to prove that guy wrong? Not only was he successful, in a way he was successful in a Ferangi's Body. HOLD MY BEER, Not only will i do it , I will do it as a Ferangi. He also did it because Quark is one of Jadziah's closest friend. Even if he did'nt want to do it, Jadziah would've convinced him to do it. its half because he is Her friend, Half to prove that old man wrong. 0% to help quark. Also Jadziah has courted way more Klingon women than worf, she could've done this all SOLO but it was more fun to involve worf and finally continue a story threat started when they met in way of the warrior. Dax was not a 2nd CHOICE... Worf is a professional, and a DORK... completely blind to JADZIAH constant flirting and hanging out with him. as a fellow officer, even if he wasn't blind to her flirting, he would have never pursued her because of respect/honor. She always had to pursue him first. Any feelings he had for her, he would've dismissed them because she is a fellow star fleet officer. He can be totally in love with jadziah and he wouldn't disrespect her as a fellow officer by pursuing her. It takes Jadziah not giving a fuck, knowing better because of her "AGE" and realizing he will never make the first move because he is "WORF". She always had to say it's okay first. Not really a spoiler spoiler warning: in HINDSIGHT .... I would never call this a ZERO/LOW STAKES EPISODE!!! ... its ripples are seen through many future episodes....

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Nice Star Trek DS9 take on Cyrano de Bergerac. Definitely an A, maybe an S. Klingon opera: do you remember Aktuh and Maylota that Worf requests and starts to sing in Unification, part 2 from TNG? The Phil Morris connection: He is the son of Greg Morris, one of the co-stars of the original Mission:Impossible TV show, which shot on the Desilu (later Paramount) lot right next to Star Trek TOS. Did we mention before that Joseph Ruskin who plays the elder Klingon Tumek played Galt in the TOS episode Gamesters of Triskelion?

Hopefully, Worf will soon open up an unlimited tab for Morn at the bar.

I don't think I've ever seen Alex's eyes so wide for so long.

The device on Quark reminded me of Spock's Brain

From Morn's barstool bump to Quark's pantomime puppetry, this has to rank among the all timers in Trek Physical Comedy. /Continuity Note: there's a Bolian waiter at the bar now because Quark was disbarred from doing any Ferengi business, including employing Ferengi staff. You can still see the signage Brunt (FCA) slapped at his doorway at the end of 'Body Parts'.

Alex, that cough sounds rough. Hope you aren’t getting sick. I’m just getting over a bad case of bronchitis that has lasted over a month.

I like to imagine that Ron Moore had a rum and Coke, put on "Afternoon Delight" and wrote down whatever popped into his head, and this is what we got. Gloriously insane. You can tell Mr. Moore never bought into Gene Roddenberry's "humanity has evolved past all jealousy and competitiveness" spiel, which is all to the good.

Love how Sisko stuck his head in the room to check on all his kids this week lol

Everyone Gets Fucked: The Episode. (Literally) But no, seriously an S-Tier and the best so far of Season 5. Never noticed that Andy Robinson directed, so that's cool to know! I don't know about any French literature influence but after reading the comments, that's cool to know too!

To be fair, I think most of us knew you guys would like this one. You loved it about as much as I thought you would. Probably even more than I thought.

Josh didn't recognize the older Klingon because he didn't get a recap. The producers should make note of that and provide one next time.

I firmly believe that Keiko is in the Causing Problems / On Purpose quadrant for this episode.

After „The Count of Monte Cristo“ in „Hard Time“ the writers again take on classic french literature. This time the famous play „Cyrano de Bergerac“ by Edmond Rostand. Of course there is a twist. Cyrano, ashamed of his big nose, helps Christian with his writing skills to win Roxane, although secretly in love with her himself. Here Quark is the unlikely „ugly“ lover, who receives Worf‘s fighting skills. In both stories the hero does not get the lady he desires. But Worf is clearly better off: Cyrano, although a formidable warrior and fencer, dies at the end in the arms of Roxane.

Fabulously fun episode.

I like this one a lot, and I'd be surprised if it had too many detractors. Also, shout out to Armin Shimmerman and how he acted in the scene where he's being remote controlled, especially his physicality in selling that situation.

You might have recognized Tumek from his previous appearance in House of Quark, like you said, but the actor is also Galt in the Gamesters of Triskelion and the Cardassian operative in the cave that Odo meets.

It's been 30 years, and to this day, I still crack up when I think of the way Worf says "I do not know how, but he is still alive."

DS9 sex scoreboard JEEZ!!!! We got some scoreboard shit to cover today my friends. The sex score board Jadzia 5 -1 and +1 new Quark 4 -1 new Bashir 4 Sisko 3 Kira 3 almost +1 Morn 3 Worf 3 +1 new Jake 2 Chief 1 almost +1 Odo 1 Keiko 1 GUEST: Grilka 1 DETAILS: Good gravy where to start. Let’s start with the negatives. We scored Quark and Dax a long time ago based on what Dax said and a few things. We think clearly, after what Dax was saying to Worf about Quark, that was wrong so Dax and Quark gets a -1 retraction from an earlier mis—score. Next. You might think Quark should get a +1 but NO. Not because he and Grilka didn’t lobe down and go to town, (they did) but he and Grilka already have a counted score back in House of Quark. Next. Kira and Chief holy molely. It is a close call for us. We do hold to our assumptions about if it might be and they could have it is a YES. But it seems clear with the last scene between them no it didn’t. Now finally, the only new score Dax and Worf. Okay of all the “we didn’t see it” calls we have made I am guessing no one will dispute this one . When they have to go to Bashir to get wounds taken care of, then talking about marriage, they clearly swung the Bat’leth and spilled something. After a long blue-ball drought we got some action.

Josh popping for Grilka, Alex for the title. 😆

Star Trek is so beloved, because every one can pick his favourites and dislike the stuff he dislikes - and for every single person those are two different lists ;) Regarding Kira/Miles: I think its their age that helps to handle the situation quite well before it really starts leading to something. If they were both in their early 20s... ;P

S-tier for Sexyness Safe word is: Criminal Activity Reports.

These *are* the glory days of Star Trek

Fun episode

Worf helping Quark was just a side effect of what he really wanted. He wanted to prove to himself that he can persue a Klingon woman. That comment hurt him and he didn't want it to be true

Ron Moore wrote this in a lab just for you guys.

Worf is motivated to help Quark when the older Klingon who works for Grilka tells him he doesn’t know how to court a Klingon woman. When his advice to Quark works he even says to himself something like “So I know nothing about Klingon women.” It was once again him needing to prove to himself that he is a true Klingon.

Yas! I love this episode

I waited for you guys to watch this since TNG! It's happening! It's happening!

Whoo-whoo. Just finished my "Friday" , got a 20 dollar tip, some rum and now a little "par'Mach" to start my weekend. Excellent timing as always, fellas.