UNCUT - Tuvix (VOY S2E24) | Star Trek Journey 413
Comments (168)
In my opinion "Tuvix" isn't a real person. Hes a sentient vessel unintentionally holding two people against their will. As long as there is no way for Tuvix to "release" those he has within him he is a "True Neutral" Character and thats fine I guess. But when he is presented with a way to free those two people and he refuses to do so he abandons the "True Neutral" camp and becomes a "Chaotic Neutral" he is never "evil" but he isn't "good" either. No matter the camp, he is still just a Vessel. Reversing what happened isn't "killing" anyone it is restoring two people to the way they were ment to be. The problem isn't that he became his own person and therefore has rights. The problem is that we gave him time to believe he was "someone" in the first place! We should have been putting his ass on ice (in stasis/ medically induced coma) until we could fix the mistake that caused two people to become one against their will.
This is the reason I watch you guys react. Your analysis opens things up for me. I never watch TV in "analysis mode". I watch and either I like it or I don't. You two open me up to the nuance of story structure and acting that just washed over me before. Thanks.
Rare occasion when I disagree with Josh’s thought process. If Tuvix is only a composite of the two, with their consciousness, then the original two minds wanted Tuvix to live. Either Janeway ignored the wishes of Tuvok and Neelix, or there was a new character with different wishes to them, which makes it murder. I think Janeway was hoping for another accident to get rid of Neelix and Tuvix so she could get her private dining room back that he stole.
This episode is a big part of why even though I want to like Janeway, I just can't. She is a murderer. You don't get to sacrifice someone who is living and has their whole life ahead of them for people who were ALREADY DEAD.
I agree with Josh. I never bought that Tuvix was a new individual. We never see any new emergent properties with Tuvix that are clearly TUVIX, that weren't already present in either Tuvok or Neelix. Everything Tuvix says and does is either exactly what Tuvok or Neelix would have said or done, or is a result of Tuvok and Neelix finally working together, and balancing each other out. His cooking being better, for instance, is the direct result of Neelix applying Tuvok's knowledge of not overseasoning to his cooking. The only exception to this is at the end when he starts seeing himself as a unique individual and doesn't want to die. In those moments , he's speaking as himself, but at that point, that's because the episode requires it. If the episode wanted me to believe that Tuvix was more like a child, and a completely new individual, then it needed to show more unique traits of Tuvix as a new person who was clearly neither Tuvok nor Neelix before we got to the moral quandry. This episode didn't do that. Children aren't identical copies of their parents with all of their memories and life experiences, right down to their individual feelings toward both of their spouses, mixed together, like siamese twins, but with a blended consciousness. Children have their parents genetics, but their thoughts, memories, and personality are completely their own. We don't see that here. Instead, the episode tries to sell this idea purely by the crew's interactions with Tuvix. Every memeber of the crew acts like the only obvious interpretation of this situation is that Tuvok and Neelix are dead, and now we have this new strange stepfather who took Daddy's place. Because that's the only way that the moral quandry works. However, from how the actor performs it, and from the science behind it, and Tuvix having all of Tuvok and Neelix's experiences and memories, that's clearly not what's going on at all. Tuvok and Neelix never died. Tuvix IS Tuvok and Neelix. They are just merged. They're not dead. They were with them the entire time. They're just sharing the same body now. It's as if they became joined like what happened with Curzon-Odo. Seperating Curzon-Odo was never a moral quandry, and honestly, it never should have been one here. Tuvok and Neelix should have each kept Tuvix's experience as part of their own memories just as Odo and Jadzia did. However, I agree that given what they did, it's probably best that they left interpretation up to the audience. Personally, I would have preferred if the episode focused more on Tuvok and Neelix each gaining a new appreciation for each other after having shared that joined experience, being forced to work together, and realizing that they actually complement each other very well if they just let their differences shine through. If they stop and listen to each other instead of getting annoyed by, or trying to change each other, they should realize that they can each learn and grow and become much more than the sum of their parts. When I first saw this episode, that's originally where I thought this episode was going; that it would be a character study. But I guess all of that would make this episode feel too much like Facets. So to make it different, they made it all about the moral quandry instead. And I can't really say whether or not that was the right or wrong decision because this episode obviously had a huge impact by doing that, and is considered a massive success. The moral quandry stuff makes this an S tier episode. I just wish I had gotten to see the other version too that's all about Tuvok and Neelix processing this whole thing and actually getting some character growth. I like the Tuvix character more as a character study of those two than a trolley car problem.
That's a great point. With Picard, we get Family after Best of Both Worlds to decompress and learn what it was like for him to be assimilated and returned to his human self. It would have been nice to have a "Family" to "Tuvix" where we see Neelix and Tuvok grapple with the experience and re-integrate into the Voyager crew.
OK, I'm 2 weeks late and I'm sure nobody is paying attention to this eps comments anymore, but I finally have time to give my thoughts on this one. First off, love this episode and all the debate it inspires. Easy S for that alone. In order to determine what the right choice was, if indeed there is one, I think it's necessary to break down all the various elements of the episode. First, is Tuvix a new entity or just Tuvok and Neelix combined? I think the parent analogy, while not perfect, does work. Genetically it's very true. Children are essentially a mix of their parents' genetics. I know there is random mutation that happens over time as well, but for the most part, a mix of their DNA(and in this case a flower as well). Obviously if that invalidated personhood, then none of us are people. When Kes asks if Tuvix is thinking with 2 minds, he says he only has the memories of Tuvok and Neelix, but a single consciousness. That to me is the episodes confirmation that he is a new individual, and also, if he were just the 2 of them combined, you'd expect they would be horrified at Janeway after the separation. It seems their stream of thought ended at the beam up and resumed in sickbay. Whether that makes them copies and the originals are dead is another debate. As for having their memories and personality traits, well for personality traits, many children do end up emulating their parents. Whether that's genetics or upbringing or a mix is another question, and while Tuvix shares certain traits, he is a unique personality. Having their memories doesn't invalidate personhood either, any more than Dax having Curzon's memories made her a murderer when he was a suspect(or Joran's for that matter). The X Files just explored the idea of genetic memories. I could see something like that in Trek. A species that passes on genetic memory to their children. None of this makes someone not a person. Yes you could argue Jadzia had some 2 decades of life before being joined, and that Joran, no the symbiote was responsible for the murder, and that even if Dax was responsible, you can't punish it without killing Jadzia too. But Tuvix also had his own life, brief as it was. There's no cutoff time with these things where it becomes wrong to kill him because he's been around a while. It's either wrong the moment he materializes, or it never is. Sure if they had a solution ready to go immediately, Tuvix would probably have volunteered and there would be no dilemma, but that didn't happen. Finally on that point, the Doctor is the most medically qualified person to make that call, and he very clearly landed in the camp of separating Tuvix would kill him. So I would say Tuvix is alive and a unique individual. That he inherited genetics and personality traits from Tuvok and Neelix, and was only a few weeks old is irrelevant. Also if Tuvix is just Tuvok and Neelix combines, and they are just Tuvix separated, then where is the need to separate them? 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. You can't say Tuvix isn't gone because he lives in them, while also arguing they need to separate Tuvix to get them back. Can't have it both ways. As to whether it's justified to take one life to save 2, that's complicated. All else being equal I would say no. You could argue maybe in the case of sacrificing one murderer or otherwise horrible individual to save an innocent or innocents, maybe. Would Janeway have been justified in taking Neelix's lungs back from the Vidiians? Perhaps, putting aside that they're phage infected by that point, but she didn't think so at the time. Certainly our society doesn't believe it's justified, or we'd be chopping up our worst criminals and donating their organs to save the lives of the law abiding. Even criminals have rights. Tuvix of course committed no crime at all. If you had a situation where 2 people are locked in 1 room and 1 person is in another, and both are filling up with poison gas, and you can only pick one lock before the time runs out, then the utilitarian argument makes sense to save 2 instead of 1. The trolley problem is more complicated, because while all 3 are alive, only 2 are going to die, and by switching the track you kill someone who would otherwise live. Tuvix is again more complicated because the 2 people are already dead, and you have to turn back the clock and then switch the track. My take is this. No act or murder was involved in Tuvix creation. Negligence you could argue. As soon as there were indications of a transporter malfunction, they should have sent a shuttle. But ultimately it was an accident. Merely having the option to undo the accident doesn't make you responsible for it happening in the first place. And sure, if you could rematerialize Tuvok and Neelix while keeping Tuvix, there's no issue. But it's a false framing to act like sparing Tuvix is equivalent to murdering Tuvok and Neelix. Their deaths remain an accident that Janeway had no direct involvement in. She can restore them because scifi, but an act of murder is required to do so. The scale remains unbalanced. As soon as Tuvix expressed a will to live, the only moral choice is to respect that. You can argue Tuvix is a coward, but real talk so are most people. Now as a starfleet captain thinking of what's best for her ship and crew, I can see Janeway's reasoning. There are certainly times a starfleet officer can be ordered to their death, think Deanna's bridge crew evaluation. But the ship isn't going to be destroyed if Tuvix remains. While he can seemingly do both Tuvok and Neelix's jobs better than they can, he can't do both at the same time. There's a net loss of 1 crewman, but they lost 7 before this and the ship hasn't stopped functioning. Yes there's the emotional impact on the crew who miss Tuvok and Neel...... who miss Tuvok, but that certainly doesn't justify murder. Also Janeway having such a personal connection to Tuvok should have meant she recused herself from the decision given her bias. I do wish Second Chances and Enemy Within had been brought up in the conference room, as from a purely technical standpoint they are similar incidents. Of course, the 2 Rikers are more akin to the duplicate Harry from Deadlock, where a single consciousness duplicated and split. It's just a difference of 8 years and a couple hours of different experiences. And in Kirk's case there's no moral issue recombining them since both would die if they didn't, and also the "evil" Kirk had agreed to it at that point("I WANNA LIVE"). Plus it's no like "evil" Kirk was sacrificed to save "good" Kirk, they BOTH ceased to exist as they were recombined into 1. Either way, it was voluntary. Ethically, Tuvix is a very different situation. The only justifiable way to separate him is if he volunteered IMO. Anyway I think that about covers it on the ethical dilemma. As for the episode, it's an extremely memorable hour of TV. Tom Wright did a superb job integrating Russ and Phillips performances into his own, while presenting something new as well, and Mulgrew was brilliant as well. The hallway scene at the end yes, but also that voice crack when she says "it's good to have you back". One thing I like that's in keeping with classic Trek is the episode doesn't tell you what to think. We all have our strongly held views, but the episode itself presents 3 or 4. We or course have Tuvix's viewpoint as the person being asked to sacrifice himself, but moreover among the rest of the crew are 3 camps. Torres(and obviously Tuvok and Neelix) plays almost no role in the episode, but Janeway and Kes are very much the voice of "screw the new guy, we need to get our friends back". They are the people closest to Tuvok and Neelix respectively. Honestly I found Kes very cold and bordering on cruel at points in this episode. Obviously she is under no obligation to return Tuvix's feelings, and to be fair he gave her space, but especially early on it was almost like she didn't even want to talk to him, avoiding him like he had some plague. To be honest even I found Tuvix strange, but that's no reason to be a dick to someone(or murder them). Chakotay and Paris(and to a degree Kim) are in the bystander effect camp. Chakotay said he considered Tuvix a friend, and despite any past tension with Tuvok seems to get along with him professionally now. Tom seemed like one of the friendlier people to Tuvix, though of course he and Neelix had become good friends at this point. They represent the people who don't know what the right call is. And finally the Doctor and to some extent Kim are the only voices of protest(Kim showed some hesitation at handing over the hypospray). The only ones to recognize it's wrong to kill Tuvix against his will. So almost anyone watching the episode will relate to one of these people. Anyway, I'm sure I made paultardspambot proud with that wall of text. Tuvix was murdered, but it was always going to happen. Great episode.
You're not the only one who's two weeks late. Some of us still read these. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
"The Enemy Within" is not quite the same moral calculus, as both Kirks were going to die soon if they were not merged back together. Tuvix, in contrast, seems biologically stable, somehow.
To me the question settles down into more action vs inaction. Is the loss of two crewmembers through inaction after the fact less morally wrong than the loss of a crew member through your direct action? To me the act of using the transporter to intentionally separate him is a different beast than allowing an accident's ramifications to continue, it comes back to the trolley problem where sure you can switch it to only kill one, but, now you are morally responsible for the death of that one whereas you arguably didn't have that same responsibility if you allowed it to continue down the path with more victims.
"this action saves the most people in a utilitarian sense" vs "this action morally injures me in a way abstaining does not"
I gotta say, I never liked Tuvix calling them all good people when they drag him off to be executed. I always felt like that line was for the audience to reassure them the crew is still good and to keep watching. It reminded me of TNG's "The Enemy" when the Romulan needing Worf's blood dies offscreen anyway to get Worf off the moral hook for not providing it. DS9 would have just let our characters be called out for their complicity in murder and called it a day.
I read that as Tuvix's last attempt at manipulating the crew into sparing his life, or at least leaving an emotional scar. With Tuvok's calculating logic and Neelix's extroversion, Tuvix needs other people in a way Tuvok does not and knows how to logically manipulate people and situations better than Neelix ever could. This is introduced pretty early with Janeway's line about flattery never working for Neelix. Tuvix demonstrates his emotional intelligence by manipulating and ingratiating himself with Kes throughout the episode. We see that Tuvix is fixated on Kes from the first time he sees her, but instead of emotionally lashing out when things don't go his way, like Neelix, Tuvix knows when and how to act in order to play the long game. And it works, Kes begins to open up to him by the end of the episode. Tuvix is very good at using his emotional intelligence to get what he wants. I see that last line on the bridge as a twisting of the emotional knife. I don't think Tuvix is really forgiving anyone. He is driving home his point that they are committing murder and trying to make Janeway blink. If the episode didn't want the audience to grapple with what Janeway did, it wouldn't fade out with a shot of her clearly horrified by her actions and alone in the hallway.
One of the best VOY episodes without a doubt. If I had to make the decision on what to do with Tuvix, I wouldn't know what I'd do. Tuvix is such a great premise for a character. It's a shame they couldn't drag his character out for a couple more episodes, but it's 90s TV. This is the clear first S of Voyager in my eyes.
Janeway to Tuvix: "Tuvok and Neelix would sacrifice their lives to save another person." Ok, she answered the question of whether or not Tuvix should be allowed to stay himself, since they already "sacrificed themselves"; killing Tuvix is utterly illogical, imo, and simply shows human fear of the new/unknown, or to place a certain life over another, stuff Starfleet trains its officers not to give in to/do.
I would like to expound a little on what I left as a comment in the patron takes. Regarding Captain Janeway becoming more of a matriarchal leader. Look at some of the matriarchal themes we have seen such as Elogium, Threshold, and Deadlock. Her motherly relationship with Kes and to a lesser extent Harry. Then there the Wildmon baby. In Deadlock for a time she had lost all three. In Threshold she left her offspring behind, who's to say what trauma that left behind. My point is this, although it doesn't lessen the moral responsibility that a starship Captain should uphold, it does give us different lense to perceive how she might bend her "Starfleet" principles so they slant in the favor of her surrogate children. I am just saying I have known very loving principled women who have suffered the trauma of that type of loss and when it comes to others they consider to be her family and you try to mess with them a switch is flipped. Now Janeway made the decision she made to protect her "own" and took it on alone so no one else would have to bear that burden even though when it was done you could see that on the inside she knew she violated her ideals. As her crew in the Delta Quadrant she may not be the ideal Starfleet Captain you WANT her to be but she will always be the leader you NEED her to be!
Janeway is such a terrible captain. One horrendous decision after another.. Kate is a good actress though.
"Your Honour, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits."
I agree with Josh, not a new life form. but can understand it being tough, problem you let him have a name and mingle with the crew. I tell my mom when she finds a stray dog, do not name it. then you will make too much of a connection. hahaha
Another thing, if you feel splitting Tuvix back to Tuvok and Neelix. is murdering Tuvix. Does anyone think Tuvok and Neelix were killed by the transporter or just combined? if killed, then did they just come back to life?
It all depends on how you see the transporter. do it create a new person every time someone comes through or just two people coming together. so not a new life. Just the two combined. So splitting them back, does not kill a life. it was bring him back to their original state of beings, I am not saying it would not be hard to make the decision. Not easy for Janeway, but she did not kill Tuxiv. Great episode to me. It becomes hard because they got to know the combine Tuvix, which seems to even out both Tuvok and Neelix
This is also essentially a Kobayashi Maru. A no win situation. So then, for maybe a fun twist on it, since Kirk does not believe in a no win situation, what would Kirk do? Would Kirk finally have to be committed to surrendering to a no win situation in this particular circumstance? Or is this simply a "shoot him!" situation? lol
Janeway's dating profile: Favorite things: Long walks on the beach Coffee Killing Tuvix
#Justice4Neelok
One of my favorite episodes in all of Trek from a series that I didn't care for much.
I loooove this episode to this day because it always leads to some of the best discussions.
I have not seen this episode since it first aired 🤣. It's probably the only one I've always skipped. Let's see how it holds up. I remember it being a fun ride despite being uncomfortable at the end.
My Idea would be like a two parter as in not an obvious two part episode, but like, we have one this episode about them "create" Tuvix in that misshap with the plant. The next "normal" episode with Tuvix character development as the B-Story and in the end a third episode about them developing that theory about the separation-process and executing it. The show itself and the in-show timer doesn't need it per-se but we could have needed it for us to feel Tuvix in a way of being his own character instead of both characters at the same time... But also... yeah i dont know.
Janeway is a badass captain. My number 2 next to Sisko…But she definitely did execute someone LOL. My belief is the accident happened. Now regardless of finding how to undo it, doesn’t make it ok to force another being to no longer exist. And the merging of 2 into 1 doesn’t mean Tuvix isn’t now a separate consciousness. Did we forget measure of a man? The 3 criteria for sentience 😆 This is why I love Star Trek
He is a completely separate alien entity that has assimilated Tuvok and Neelix’s memories and organic tissues. He’s holding them hostage. He’s one plant experiencing consciousness at the expense of two real people. A cowardly vegetable thinking he has the right to speak for lives he holds prisoner. Pulling on the fragments of their emotions and relationships to manipulate their friends like the strings of a marionette. Is he actively malicious? No, but it’s that banality-of-evil, lack of responsibility, and indifference to consequences that I find even more disturbing. Actually worse than the Borg, in my opinion.
Star Trek , at least og Star Trek is all about arguing moral dilimna’s it’s at the heart of trek. Tuvix is a new personality so I see his point of view
For the discussion about Id/Ego Kirk, Thomas Riker, and Tuvix, they are all different situations. Id/Ego Kirk is explained to be two incomplete versions of the original. Neither copy is a complete human psyche on their own, they are fragmented, cannot survive apart, and must be recombined. It's unambiguous what the right thing to do is. William and Thomas Riker are effectively clones or replicants with the same exact lived experience and memories for 26 years, but divergent experiences since. Merging them back together would be weird, almost like combining identical twins into a single person. Tuvix is described as a brand new being, created by symbiogenesis, where two different species are merged together to produce new life. This symbiogenesis is how the orchids reproduce, so it is a biological process transferred during transportation. Tuvix doesn't have Neelix or Tuvok in "the sunken place", they are completely gone. Tuvix tells Kess he has an integrated, single consciousness. When Tuvix says he thinks of Neelix and Tuvok as his parents, it aligns with all the information we have been given in the episode. It is as if Tuvok and Neelix both died in childbirth while passing on all their memories and abilities to Tuvix. This is completely different than the other two examples. I also think Janeway believes she is killing a person and that she is violating her core ethics to selfishly get Tuvok back, because she needs him. This is what that last shot of Janeway is communicating. She knows she just did something fucked up. I don't think Season 1 Janeway, from the Phage, makes the same decision. And I don't think this Janeway would have made the same decision if it were some random red shirt mixed with Neelix.
Also, let's talk about what an utter dick Neelix is. He keeps trying to get Tuvok to be more emotional, but SURELY it's been explained to Neelix that if Tuvok indulged in his emotions, he'd fuckin' FLIP OUT. "Why aren't you more happy Mr. Vulcan? Just a little happiness?" Because he'd lose control and KILL YOU NEELIX, LEAVE THE MAN ALONE.
Yeah Tuvok has great control to not beat Neelix to death
Josh loves eating Eggs, flour, sugar, butter, oil, milk, baking powder and salt. Either in individual bowls, or as a cake, he don't care, it's the same thing. 🙃
Listening to the discussion and takes while I was driving at work, that EXACT analogy came to mind.
They could've recreated the Riker transporter accident to clone him and then seperate him but the show is about the moral dilemma.
Alex: “Fuck the Vadiians!” “And The Doctor did.” 🤣
One thing that the characters didn’t discuss was the complexity and risk associated with the separation procedure. I think it would have raised the stakes and served the episode to have that discussion in which The Doctor emphasizes this is a highly experimental and untested procedure that might go awry. I think the dilemma becomes much more fraught when you consider the idea that forcing Tuvix to undergo the procedure might result in the death of all three, and they just have to hope it works. That makes the underlying Trolley Problem logic less of an intellectual cope, because the math isn’t guaranteed. Add on top of it that Janeway has never been taught how to do the procedure and The Doctor is refusing to participate, so she’s doing it without guidance and can potentially screw it up, then I think it’s more poignant. That’s how I choose to view the episode.
I really do like Hogan as a recurring crewman. I'm surprised Voyager hasn't made another recurring transporter chief. Was this the first time we saw the science lab? I love the moments between Janeway and Kes. Paris: We've created a monster. Tuvix: I was born from two daddies.
Can we all just agree: THIS is GOOD television? S-tier, no question. Oh, and I am of the same mind as Alex on this one.
If only Voyager could maintain this level, it does only occasionally
Tuvix absolutely was an independent consciousness separate and unique from his "parents". It's a great episode, but it definitely was murder. In doing so Janeway imposed the will of state above the freedom of the individual. As soon as we concede that the state can kill in favor of lives deemed more valuable it's a path to totalitarianism. Once Tuvix makes the decision that he wants to live, that decision lies with him.
Exactly right
Wow, I can't believe it's been 30 years and I still think about this episode a lot. Tom Wright's line "I deserve to live" and Kate Mulgrew's emotional performance. So good. Glad you guys finally got to this ep.
I think it's interesting that "The Enemy Within" was brought up as a counter example to this episode, in that someone is split and then recombined, instead of vice versa. It has nothing to do with the transporter, but for me, "Faces" is what more springs to mind, where B'elanna was separated into her human and Klingon halves, both being seperate individuals. In the case of both episodes however, any sort of ethical dilemma is sidestepped by short timing and medical necessity, and I find it interesting that "Tuvix" does its best to avoid both things, to really highlight the morality of Janeway's decision. The doctor gives Tuvix a perfectly clean bill of health, and also Tuvix is alive for weeks having his own experiences as one lifeform, before Janeway performs the separation. And also, Tuvix is not willing to sacrifice himself either, so a lot of easy outs are completely removed. Definitely ratchets the episode up a notch, in my opinion. I don't know what decision I would make in Janeway's shoes, but what bothers me about the episode is how callous everyone seems at the end. Not even one person defends Tuvix, or even makes an attempt to do so. I know everyone follows Janeway's orders, but no one even really looks sad or at least says "I'm sorry" or something. As for Janeway, clearly she is not going to show any hesitation on front of the crew, but once she was in sickbay, I totally expected her to at least say "I'm sorry" as she injected Tuvix with the isotope. There is even a slight pause in the episode like she is going to say something, but then doesn't. I guess she's just locked in at that point, but still doesn't quite sit right with me, aside from any consideration of the decision itself. Also, I think it's interesting to consider that Janeway has a vested interest in getting Tuvok back; would her decision have been different if it were two random crew members she didn't know who got merged? Maybe not, but interesting to ponder. Good episode and great discussion.
Probably the most infamous ethical dilemma episode of Trek and I love how bold the writers were with the conclusion to it.
I know it's a big moral dilemma but honestly I always just hated the Tuvix character so I have zero problems with Janeway doing what she did
Anyone else get Shylock vibes (from Merchant of Venice) from Tuvix’s personal appeal to Janeway? “If you prick us, do we not bleed?”
Listen, reality is what it is. Sometimes transporters have accidents and crew members are lost. But only YOU can make the decision to become a murderer. Pulling the lever to trade 1 for 2 sounds ok when the lives are as closely connected like this, but if you're full on for Vulcan 'needs of the many' then would you pull a magic lever to kill some innocent ensign on the ship today, to save two that died back in caretaker? Surely not right? People die. But you didn't kill them. Pull that lever and now you're a killer. And murder is now suddenly ok (if you can justify it). If that's a society you want to live in, go for it, but I don't think it's one you do.
I really wish you two had read my comment about the Phage instead of just mentioning it off-hand. It wasn't that long and I took the time to include a quick summary of the situation along with Janeway's actual quote. That way, you could have responded to what actually happened and what she specifically said instead of what you do or don't remember of the episode.
Seeing a moral lesson is great, but at the end of the day, the writer wanted the crew in a corner so wrote one and had to get them out of it, Jack in Titanic was always going to die because that was the script, Tuvix is similar
I really appreciate the great discussion from y'all on this! I think this has helped me appreciate this episode again. It's had a stank on it for me for a long time because of the Discourse that discussions on it have consistently turned into over the years. I got so sick of how at least one person would always bust into the discussion and essentially say "JANEWAY IS A PSYCHO BITCH FOR THIS AND IF YOU AGREE WITH HER DECISION YOU'RE ALSO A PSYCHO AND WOULD PROBABLY KILL PEOPLE ON REAL LIFE". (My capslocks are for effect but I am deadass about this exact sentiment being said with full chest). Part of the problem for me is the way so much criticism of Janeway is in fact rooted in misogyny: I'm sure there are people who think she is evil for this episode who *don't* come from this place (the Gallifrey Pals were very upset for example lol), but I think it's very telling that the word that tends to get thrown around the most is not something like 'immoral', but 'psycho' 😑
Lets talk about the real tragedy here, the loss of Tuvik's cooking and getting Neelix back in the kitchen!
The real tragedy was getting Neelix back
The fact that this stirs so many emotions is evidence that it worked. And there is almost an even split on people who disagree with the DECISION and not the quality of the episode. Captain Janeway's responsibility for a crewman (Tuvok) and a civilian (Neelix) vs. her mission to "seek out new life and new lifeforms" are in obvious conflict and it all comes down to the choice she makes, and whichever choice she makes will kill a part of her and bring about one of the greatest debates of the entire franchise.
I recently watched a YouTube video that presented an interesting thought experiment. How do you think the other Star Trek captains would have handled the Tuvix dilemma? Would they have chosen to let Tuvix live, or would they have separated him to bring back Tuvok and Neelix? * Kirk? * Picard? * Sisko? What do you think each of them would have done?
I feel like Kirk would have got philosophical and got Tuvix to think about what his existence cost the other 2, but left the decision in his hands. Sisko probably would have dressed Tuvix down for being a coward and not thinking about not only the lives Tuvox and Neelix can't have while he's around, but what he's costing their loved ones as well, and basically get him to agree to the separation by sheer force of personality. Picard would have gone full defense lawyer mode arguing for Tuvix right to self determination.
Also. Show should have saved money. They might need it at some point. Keep Tuvix and jettison Neelix & Tuvok (sorry to the actors/ I just think he works).
In the new Voyager video game you can decide to keep Tuvix. Lol
Waiting for this one. I STRONGLY disagree with Janeway on this. Her behavior was monstrous. It is not the decision I disagree with. This was hard. Complicated. I think it could go either way. But no. This was not an emergency for the entire ship. Janeway does NOT get to be judge, jury & executioner here. Tuvok is one of her oldest friends, she does NOT get to the be the Prosecutor and judge. She made herself in full control because she fears giving up control. No. Process matters, it is why murders have trials and victims families don't get to string up suspects without a trial. Chakotay should have stepped in here and said No. Janeway you can be the Tuvok/ Neelix advocate BUT you can't then be the judge. They should have set up a panel of 5. Held a hearing and then the jury/ panel hold a vote. Janeway's behavior here is atrocious and it colors how I see her going forward. I forgive some of Picard & Sisko's transgressions because they were in a life/ death situation. This is NOT okay.
I absolutely love this episode. For me, it's one of the four best episodes of Star Trek: Voyager. That said, I absolutely hate Janeway's decision at the end. Welcome to "Murderer Janeway," committing what I see as cold-blooded murder. This is probably the Star Trek episode I've spent the most time thinking about over the years. The moral dilemma is fascinating, and the choices everyone makes are incredibly thought-provoking. Tom Wright gives an outstanding performance as Tuvix. He perfectly captures both Tuvok and Neelix while still creating a unique character of his own. It's a remarkable acting performance. The entire cast is fantastic, especially in showing how the crew gradually accepts Tuvix as he begins building a new life aboard Voyager. The scene between Kes and Janeway in Janeway's quarters is especially brilliant. Despite loving the episode so much, the ending leaves a very bitter aftertaste for me. In my view, Tuvok and Neelix died in the transporter accident, tragic as that was, and a new life came into existence. Since that new life is conscious, independent, and clearly wants to live, I believe its rights take priority. Tuvok and Neelix can no longer speak for themselves, but Tuvix can. That's why I see Janeway's decision as morally wrong and, ultimately, as cold-blooded murder. Of course, I know this is a television episode and that the writers needed to restore the status quo. Even so, I think Janeway and the crew had a moral responsibility to keep searching for another solution—one that could preserve Tuvix's life while also bringing back Tuvok and Neelix. In a universe with transporter technology, cloning, and countless scientific miracles, it's disappointing that this possibility isn't seriously explored. For me, this episode is an easy S+. It's among the very best that Voyager ever produced.
I love that 30 years later new viewers are still debating this episode. And that's what we love so much about Star Trek...sometimes the Edith Keelers and Tuvixes have to die to set things right.
Probably the best VOY episode ever made. It's the one they still talk about and make memes about. I love the last shot when Janeway leaves Sickbay and her face changes. Reminds me of a similar moment Kirk has at the end of "Balance Of Terror."
If I'm captain, I'm gonna kill Neelix eventually anyway, so it's really just swapping Tuvix for Tuvok.
No one died here? Tuvix, "Am I a joke to you?"
This is an episode which really annoys me, everything they did to build up Janeway's character was contradicted here. Her ethics were stressed from the beginning as one of her strongest traits. Yet we are expected to believe she would authorise, in fact order, murder which is essentially what this is. Just to get two of her friends back. Now we all know Tuvok and Nelix had to come back, they were contracted but for me if they couldn't find a better way of bringing them back they shouldn't have made the episode. Janeway as she was created in thow just wouldn't do what she does here.
See below. Yes. Should have been taken out of her hands in a hearing/ trial. Panel of 5 crew members that were NOT close with Tuvok/ Neelix.
This is a big one. Looking forward to the calm, rational debate in the comments 😂
I always thought the writers made a mistake with this one. Janeway going against everything Starfleet stands for just seems very out of character. It would have made more sense if tuvix had made that decision on his own.
Yes. Should have been taken out of her hands in a hearing/ trial. Panel of 5 crew members that were NOT close with Tuvok/ Neelix.
So, when you use the teleporter, technically you are dying because all of your atoms are pulled apart, and an exact replica of you is rematerialized at the spot where you beamed to. Therefore, you could argue using the teleporter is a moral dilemma because an exact clone, isn't the original you. When you beam two people at once, the teleporter, takes all this information, extracts what is pattern a (Tuvok) and pattern b (Neelix) and rematerializes them separately. The fact the teleporter skipped the separation part, does make this difficult. But Tuvix appeared day 1, with the ability to philosophize, speak, read, without any life experience. He is using the neural pathways of Tuvok and Neelix, rather than his own life experience. I think this is enough to view him as two people conjoined rather than an individual. I agree, if he stayed like that for 10 years, than your now erasing something unique. But in the episode he spoke with mannerisms and a cadence of Tuvok and Neelix, I think he was just 2 people in 1, rather than an individual.
I guess there is no win either way. It's just the crew's indifference when he begged for life that gets me, surely he would have some defenders?
Yes, that bothers me too! I know they have to follow Janeway's orders, but someone could have at least started to object until she stared them down or something. Or even just saying "I'm sorry" to Tuvix would have been a nice gesture.
They missed an even crazier opportunity. Tuvok grows orchids. The separation is reversable. What if they kept growing the orchids, and Tuvok and Neelix periodically spent time together as Tuvix, and time apart as themselves? Let's all sing a Vulcan funeral dirge for Tuvix
The way I think about the "Tuvix Question" is this: Imagine if, instead of Tuvak and Nelix being fused into a new being, Tuvix, imagine if this teleporter accident happens and Tuvak and Nelix are left brain dead and hooked up to an unrelated third person, Tuvix as in something like organ donors. Tuvix cannot live without Tuvak and Nelix, but unhooking Tuvix from them will cause them to wake up. Would you say that Tuvak and Nelix's power of attorney(Janeway and Kes in this instance) doesn't have the right to unhook them from Tuvix, even under his protest?
Janeway already established in season 1 that she wouldn't even take back actively stolen organs from the Vidiians because it would be killing the guilty party to save the innocent victim, which is far more analogous to this situation than your hypothetical, because the lungs were actually part of the Vidiians body at that point, just like Neelix's and Tuvok's bodies were now part of Tuvix's, and not just connected to them via some external apparatus. If Janeway doesn't have the right to take back Neelix's lungs who was still alive and conscious at the time, how does she have the right to murder Tuvix to resurrect Neelix and Tuvok, who are both essentially dead at the time. If you want to argue that they weren't actually dead because Tuvix is actually just them, then you should also argue that Tuvix's consciousness is also them, and him choosing to stay alive as Tuvix means that both Neelix and Tuvok are also choosing to stay alive as Tuvix. You can't have it both ways.
Loved this reaction and discussion. I saw that Tom Wright is apparently attending Vegas, couldn't have timed the watch through better!
They also just released a new action figure of Tuvix
Someone on the bridge should have spoken up in Tuvix' defense...even if they were immediately shut down by Janeway.
I think the reason no one did is the same reason why Kes could't, They wanted their old friends back, not this new guy who acts like neither.
I don't feel good about this episode. I hate that Janeway had to force him, instead of him going willingly. But for what it's worth, here's my opinion on Tuvix, my rationalization so that I can move on from the episode in a satisfactory way. Tuvix was an aberration. A disordered state of being. A lucky form of life support that prevented the transporter malfunction from being fatal. Tuvok and Neelix are clearly in there somewhere, but in no right mind would they want to have remained that way. Tuvix is presented as lucid and in his right mind, but there was no new person created here, just a mishmash of thoughts and memories, one that wants to destroy the people who made them. If you concede that Janeway murdered Tuvix by separating him, then Tuvix is no less a murderer for wanting to end the lives of Tuvok and Neelix.
Killing somebody is different than not bringing somebody back to life. It would be different if the choice Janeway had was a one time thing with like a button and it was like "Save Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok Die" or "Save Tuvok and Neelix, Tuvix Dies". Then yeah, it's obvious, but the morality issue comes from the fact that the current state of things is Tuvix is alive, Neelix and Tuvok are not.
Whatever their opinion on it is, there is no doubt this is one of the first episodes that comes to most minds when they think of Voyager.
Always one of my favourite episodes of Voyager. When I first saw this when it released I felt it was such a tough decision for Janeway and felt for Tuvix as he is, pretty much, what Star Fleet is partly about: discovering new life-forms. 30 years later and I'm still mixed on my feelings about the situation. I do not envy Janeway for the decision she faced. Great episode and great guest star.
This is Voyager's kobayashi maru! There really isn't a winning solution here. Maybe keep him around until Q shows up? I've thought about this episode frequently over the years. It's horrifying watching Tuvix plead for his life. Tuvok has a family back home. He's an asset to this crew. Neither Tuvok or Neelix consented to this either. It's a tough call, one I couldn't make, but I can live with Janeway's decision here. She got 2 skilled crewman back, by sacrificing one. I hate to make it a numbers game, but in this situation, both Neelix and Tuvok had far more to lose by dying than Tuvix did. Clearly Tuvok and Neelix didn't protest afterward either, which is somewhat validating that Janeway didn't kill this guy only for them to protest.
The problem I have with applying real world scenarios to this situation to frame the debate is that they aren't comparable. Things like "well, Neelix and Tuvok are already dead" doesn't work because they're not because dead people can't be brought back and things like "it's as if two people needed organs and you're killing one person to harvest those organs" don't really apply because not only are those scenarios about unrelated people and not connected like these characters, Tuvix is the third person in these scenarios and there's just no real world comparison to Tuvix's creation that you can make so there is no possibility for a person like him to exist in whatever real world scenario you can come up with. I don't say this to be on Janeway's side, but to say that using those real world arguments against Janeway also isn't right, because it's designed to be one of those problems where there is no right answer. I do think the *episode* got it right by showing which ever way you go, there is no 'feel good' answer and it's gonna take a toll which ever you choose.
I think the easiest way to frame it is using the Frankenstein method. It would be like killing two people, in order to frankenstein a third together. But you can frankenstein the old people back together and bring them back at the expense of the third person.
Ya know what I really love about this episode. It got, and continues to get, the audience worked up. It's probably one of the most hotly debated decisions in all of star trek. It made people care about this decision in a fictional TV show enough to have actual heated debates about it. Just perfection.
I got to give it up to the writing staff for not going for what would have been the very easy way out: Janeway decides Tuvix has to be the one to make the decision, and he chooses to separate either because he can’t stand the pain he’s causing Kes or he feels Neelix and Tuvok deserve to be returned. This was apparently the sort of route they were going until Michael Piller suggested what they ended up with. Turned what would have been probably a forgettable episode into an enduring Trek classic.
Or that some technobabble excuse about his DNA faltering so he has to separate or he will die too.
To me, going back to the Jadzia Dax comparison, I think that tracks. Jadzia and Dax, Neelix and Tuvok (or flip it), and Jadzia Dax is uniquely Jadzia Dax and Tuvix is uniquely Tuvix. To me, if you split up Jadzia and Dax, and let's say both are allowed to live indefinitely that way, you still 'killed' Jadzia Dax. Except now that I say that all, I'm not sure it's 1 to 1 because I think even when Jadzia Dax is one person, I think it's sort of 'three consciousnesses' co-existing, with the hybrid taking the lead, but it always felt to me like with Tuvix, it's just Tuvix in there, from a consciousness perspective, not three consciousnesses. In fact, he even says that he feels like one person in his own mind. My head kinda hurts lol
My proposal about doing a 'Thomas Riker' with Tuvix before the procedure doesn't solve the moral dilemma. It still kills one of the Tuvix. My reasoning is, it's a better compromise then saying 'Fuck Tuvix' altogether.
Not if you can do it simultaneously
Actually, hold up. In that episode where the Vidiians stole Neelix's lungs... he doesn't get them back, I think Kes donates one of her lungs. So.... should Tuvix have been a combination of HER DNA as well?
That’s an excellent point.
Here's the other thing.... shouldn't Tuvix have been capable of speaking for Tuvok and Neelix? Because in other ways, he seems to be able to do that when it's about his feelings for Kes, or doing the cooking, or being the tactical officer, and I think other examples were sprinkled in too, yet he can't answer the question of "What would Neelix want? What would Tuvok want?" I feel like maybe the writers dodged that one.
Man…did not expect the savage take from Josh.
Inaction against Tuvix is not killing Tuvok and Neelix. The accident already killed them. And staying out of it is not the same as willfully inserting yourself into a situation in order to change that situation.
it didn't kill them, though. Dead people can't be brought back. I'm not saying that because it makes the answer clear cut that it's OK to bring them back, but to say that it's also not automatically true that they are dead and Tuvix isn't and that's who should live, it's what makes it an actual problem, not one with an obvious right answer that people have picked their sides for.
My favorite S2 episode. In regard to consciousness, isn't that the element that morally matters? Yes, Tuvix was a combination of Tuvok and Neelix, but that unique mind's eye experience of reality was newly minted. That makes him a new sentient lifeform, distinct from the individuals who blended together to make him. And this was instant, the moment he stepped off the transporter pad, it didn't require any time for him to form into a more distinct being in terms of his personality. That's the outward manifestation of uniqueness, not the part that can taste chocolate cake, or feel the warmth of another's skin, or mourn the loss of a friend. His soul-like spark was novel and particular to him alone, and Janeway extinguished it. Per the trolley problem, Tuvok and Neelix were already dead. There was a way to save them at the cost of another's life. It's not the same as the conventional thought experiment, because in that, no one is already dead. As far as these moral perspectives being valid or invalid, it depends on your axioms. Utilitarianism is, in my view, dangerous, because it ultimately means someone else can hold higher authority over your own life if there was a deliberated cause to end it. It'd provide greater value to the "collective"? Get on that executioner's chair. A very disturbing thought. And per Randy's take - no! I love Neelix. If Tuvix had remained, it would have been a great loss to the joviality aboard Voyager. But it was still Tuvix, who held a singularly indivisible immutable sentience, to make that choice for himself. This is exactly why Star Trek is so incredible though, agreed. You don't find these kinds of discussions anywhere else.
While I can see your argument regarding Tuvix being a new person, if I agreed to that, I still would not consider Tuvok and Neelix “dead”. Even if their consciousness was not active and they didn’t have memory of the events, I would consider that closer to a coma than death. IMO, saying they “died” is a way to emotionally feel better about making the choice to not what in my opinion is the equivalent of bringing them out of a coma.
Even if they could split Tuvix like Thomas Riker they would then have to “kill” one. What if Thomas Tuvix is like “ Wait I want to live too!”
Exactly
Super episode. For me, I enjoyed Janeway's reaction to all of it rather than Kes, even though a lot of the focus was on how she felt at the prospect of losing Neelix. That scene with Janeway and Kes where she talks about missing Mark and the realisation that one day he may move on was a rare moment of vulnerability for Janeway, as a character and as a Captain. And then no sooner has she gone through with the separation and she walks out - you get one second of pain at what's just happened then she resumes her steely determination. One of the great actors of the Star Trek universe showing how effective nuance and subtlety can be, with nothing more than the eyes.
Since the accident made a third consciousness if they repeated it would Tuvix come back as if he had never gone?
Imagine if Tuvok and Neelix periodically spent time merged to let him come out...
I don’t agree with Janeway’ decision. But I don’t think she acted as a psycho. She knew the repercussions of what she was doing, and she looked him in the eyes while doing it. Any kind of “I’m sorry please forgive me” would have been more disrespectful towards Tuvix, because there is nothing to say in such a moment. I also don’t think leaving Tuvix alive would mean murdering the other two. Because they died/were gone in an accident. So they cannot be killed the second time. I don’t think they were conscious while being merged, although now separated they have Tuvix’s memories. Tuvix may have had their memories while alive and his character was influenced by the other two, but he was a completely new consciousness and person. Like I believe was said somewhere in the episode he is more than the sum of his parts. While I like both Tuvok and Neelix more than him, they should have remained gone as a result of the accident and Tuvix should have continued to live.
Yep, disagree with Janeway too but she clearly felt incredible weight and sorrow after murdering Tuvix. I loved the end hallway scene, it was necessary to retain some sympathy towards the Captain regardless of how wrong I think her choice was.
This goes from one of those fun odd couple episodes into a moral situation really fast! I had not seen this episode in many years, but Kate Mulgrew's acting at the end had stuck with me. I never forgot that scene. Tough as nails, to ready to cry, to back to being the captain with no words! She's amazing.
I love the discussion that this one generated. One comment on Josh's point - it seems to me that if you accept that Tuvix isn't a new life, that he's just Tuvok and Neelix in a different form, then shouldn't it be HIS decision whether to remain in that form or split back in two? Surely if he's Tuvok and he's Neelix, then he can make that decision for Tuvok and Neelix.
Great point, by saying she needs to speak for Tuvok and Neelix, it implies Tuvix is someone else
VOYAGER'S 1st in season 2 Parter. Think about it.
Alex noted the similarity of the score to Revenge of the Sith. There's a reason for that - there's a motif used in the climax here that was also used in the Revenge of the Sith score. It's an old melody from a Gregorian chant called "Dies Irae" that has been used in film scores for decades to represent death. Other film scores that use it include The Shining, Alien, It's a Wonderful Life, and Home Alone among many, many others. But yeah, the particular rendition is almost exactly the same orchestration and tempo as in Revenge of the Sith.
Josh, question. There are some behind-the-scenes writing staff changes that will happen on Voyager from time to time. Do you want us to share that kind of info as it happens in the series? (Like we did, for instance, when Piller departed DS9 towards the end of season 3 and Ira took over full control.)
It’s fine if it’s like who is running the show (Piller to Ira) but I wouldn’t want to know an individual writer’s last episode credit
I think that ultimately two guys we’ve known like forever take precedence over one new guys autonomy it’s sort of weird to just sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix like “ oh well fuck them! you’re nice!”
But no one is sacrificing them. They're already dead. To bring them back costs one ingredient, the unwilling life of another fully-formed unique sentience.
On the one hand it wouldn't be fair to Tuvok's children/wife if they ever get home to keep Tuvix, on the other hand Neelix sucks and Tuvix doesn't.
I tend to agree, as someone who is more about Utilitarianism when it comes to the ethical schools of thought. "The greatest good for the greatest amount of people." According to that school of ethics, seperating them back is the ethical thing to do.
I remember debates like this over on Severance. Let's bring it into the real world though. If you had legitimate Multiple Personality Disorder, and your second personality was distinct in every way. Memory, experience, emotions, etc. Is that a distinct individual with their own set of rights? I am not so sure. Legally, the answer is no and the law has actually touched upon this. Let's say you put yourself in a dangerous situation to purposely do harm to your other personality when they emerge. You cannot, by law, do criminal harm to yourSELF. You cannot harass yourself, or you cannot commit an assault on yourself. Or for that matter, if a cure one day is presented and you take it, you are not committing murder even though it is essentially wiping out that seperate personality. i fail to see the difference here, other than an emotional response based on them choosing an entire different actor for the role, thus skewing us to truly see him as a completely separate individual/character. I don't buy it.
On Severance, a character, an "outie" sets up a circumstance where they manipulate their "innie" persona into a sexual encounter. Because the "innie" had no consent, people were saying it was S.A. But to bring it back to my multiple personality real-world example. If you do the same to your other personality, you are NOT committing S.A. on yourself. No law in the land covers anything like that. It is still "you". Anyway, this debate got pretty heated. But if I had to choose a stance, I would say putting them back to Neelix and Tuvok was the correct decision.
"Reg, Transporting really IS the safest way to travel." - Geordi La Forge 🤦
This is a dilemma that leverages Voyager's situation. If they were in the Alpha Quadrant, they'd have to engineer a time pressure or find a way to isolate the ship to make this Janeway's decision. On TNG, you'd have to take this to the justice system. But on this show, Janeway has to make the decision herself. I disagree with you that she signed up for this. She wasn't expecting to be stranded out here where she'd have to make all these decisions herself. Making calls about the operation of her ship, conducting missions, sometimes deciding fates when forced to, sure. But in the Alpha Quadrant, absent of a time pressure that would require an immediate decision, this wouldn't be solely her call. She'd be involved but probably wouldn't make the final ruling.
Pretty much the high water mark of Voyager right here.
Great reaction. I wonder if part of the reason it would feel more wrong over a longer timespan is because the longer he is alive as Tuvix, the more "new self" he develops, as he is making decisions and connections he would not have when split. In a way he does become more and more of a new being as time goes by.
I wonder what his power level is. I like the moral dilemma and I think that there are actually two. What is the morally correct act in the abstract and what is the right call for Captain Janeway to make. Whether what they did was correct in the abstract or not, it was the right call for Janeway. She made a promise to get her crew home. And doing it herself reduces the moral injury to her crew, though it doesn't remove it entirely since they had to sit and let it happen. I like that they didn't try to dodge this with a third option and they didn't have Tuvix graciously offer himself up for sacrifice. Janeway had to choose murder to get her two crewmen back. Star Trek shouldn't force this too often. "There's always another option" is actually a solid theme for this franchise since we're talking about a cast of scientists, leaders, philosophers, ethicists, engineers, doctors and bartenders. They should generally be able to find a better option than this. But it's also good every now and then to give them a hard choice where there isn't a morally easy way out. That said, a lot of people think the Thomas Riker situation points to a way they could have gotten around this. Duplicate Tuvix and split one of the Tuvixes. Voyager also had Deadlock showing that duplication isn't a fluke. Of course they would have to keep this new guy on and if they start using duplication to solve problems, that might create writing issues down the road. Plus it sidesteps the dilemma and clearly this episode wanted the dilemma. I am ok with them not investigating that option, Tuvix is already the result of a transporter accident and they've never done a Riker duplication on purpose.
I agree 100% - both that it's great that the episode had no dodge and Janeway did have to make the hard choice, but also that Trek should limit this form of storytelling and more often challenge the crew to come up with inventive "third way" options. One of my favourite things about Star Trek is the way that it challenges us to be better in our (theoretical) future, and one of the ways it does this is by showing inventive solutions, out of the box thinking and a refusal to settle for bad choices. A few great examples of that in the future of this series.
If they duplicated Tuvik the way Riker was duplicated... that's not a clone. It's a perfect copy of his consciousness. Their identity only diverged the moment Thomas was created. Hell, if the reconstruction of the consciousness makes it a different person... then a new person is created every time a person transports somewhere. Because the person is being deconstructed and then reconstructed.
For those who consider Tuvik manipulative for defending his life..... What kind of logic is that? If someone held a gun to your head and said they were going to end you.... and then you tried to defend your right to live.... Can you imagine them then yelling at you for trying to manipulate them? And Tuvik's life isn't invalidated because you don't like his personality. Frightening.
10/10 reaction, although I'm sad the Guiker meme didn't get a mention.
Still a spoiler. It can be shared later.
The proof that Tuvix was a distinct individual lies in his own conscious experience. This isn't merely a question of biology; it's a question of identity. Tuvix perceived himself as neither Tuvok nor Neelix, but as a unique self with his own perspective. If he were not truly a third individual, there would be no third perspective from which to speak. That, to me, settles the question of his personhood. What we are left with is.... is it immoral to kill one person in order to bring two people back to life? Now, maybe if killing one person would bring 100 million people back to life... maybe I'd entertain the acceptability of that discussion, given the magnitude. But two? No. I heard someone say this in a YouTube video, and I agree: If you were to walk into a hospital, would it be right for the hospital staff to subjugate you, and take 5 of your organs to give it to 5 other people who would otherwise die? Thereby killing you. No. The 5 versus 1 argument is irrelevant. It's murder. And I won't sanitize the language.... Janeway murdered Tuvik. Given that she did what she did... AGAINST HIS WILL.... it cannot be argued otherwise. Now... .... Sorry for the wordiness. I have read and listened to many discussions online about this episode.... in recent days, actually. And I never chimed into the discussion... until now.
But all of those people in that hospital argument are unrelated with nothing to do with each other, so it's not the same. Now, if you killed two people, but killing you would actually bring those two people back, would that be less wrong than your hospital example? Even then, it's still not close to this situation because all three of the people in the example had a life before anything happened, so the who has right to life question is still skewed by that. This is one of the few scenarios in Trek where comparing it to real world examples is just not possible.
"Wait 'til you get four pips on that collar. You'll wish you had gone into botany." - Cpt. Benjamin Sisko
After messing with over a hundred orchid specimens trying to get this matter figured out, I bet the crew weren’t too keen on the botany option, either….
Tuvix laying down a guilt trip worthy of an Asian mom on the bridge 👏👏👏 Fully agree, it doesn’t feel as wrong due to the time span. If we’d moved forward for a handful of episodes with Tuvix while Tim and Ethan went off to film a buddy cop movie and then the “cure” is discovered once we’ve accepted him, I think it would have felt a little bit more like the captain was ending a life. He just didn’t marinate long enough for me to think of him as more than a temp.
Now I am imagining you going to Vegas “the last episode we watched was Tuvix….oh no we liked it…” half will be interested and half will rant…
So...if you guys were combined via a transporter accident, would you be Jolex or Alosh? I vote Jolex, 'cause Alosh sounds like "A loss" and that's terrible.
I advocated for a Neelix nude scene so don't look at me I'm unbiased.
I hadn’t realized one of the best Kes episodes is one of the most skipped and argued about ones, some stopped watching after this episode
I'd never really considered this a Kes episode but it basically is a Kes/Janeway episode
Been a long time since I watched this but forgot the Janeway and Kes scene
Minute 23 Tuvix “it could be years…” me “about 15 minutes….”
Guys. I was heading to bed. Not anymore. Time to watch Janeway .... and you guys react to it.
so Josh, wouldn't the fact that it's agreed that both Tuvok and Neelix WOULD willingly sacrifice their lives for a fellow crew mate and Tuvix wouldn't, signify that enough time has passed to make Tuvix a separate independent life? if Tuvix was ONLY a combo of Tuvok and Neelix, then logically wouldn't Tuvix automatically be willing to sacrifice his life to save his fellow crew mates? Love that all these years later this is still a super interesting conversation. for the record, I am 100% with Alex. it was straight up murder, but Janeway still made the right decision.
That’s a good point. I do wonder what Tuvix’s reaction would’ve been if it was proposed immediately upon his arrival.
Maybe the most controversial episode in all of Trek?
In my top few
The episode that launched a thousand memes. Every time I watch this, I come to a different conclusion, which is something the best Trek always does.
I've seen this episode a half dozen times, and in each one I want Neelix to stay dead.
Voyager does the “Trolly Problem” and 30 years later fans are still fighting about Janeway’s choice.
Because it is wrong today same as it was wrong then. It's not getting any more justifiable.
Josh's thoughts notwithstanding... I would love to hear Hailey's opinion when Alsh or JoeX return from Vegas as see how well he supports Tuvix. "YOU'RE NOT SPLITTING US BACK!?!" 🤣
Combing their clothes is so hilarious. Security uniform with a gold floral pattern. That is some TOS type shit. 😅🤣. Like being transported to the mirror universe kirk got switched to Terran Empire captains uniform. 😭
Such GOOD TOS shit you mean 🔥
Neelix I think honestly loves bugging Tuvok. Also Janeway was 100% right in the end. Tuvix is a bad guy, the way he tries to use Tuvok/Neelix's familiarity to get close/manipulate the feelings of people around him to "fit in" or get ahead, almost like he is usurping positions. He isn't either of them and it becomes kind of creepy. Voyager was wrong to allow him to think he was a person, and not an accident, I think naming him was the step to far.
He wasn’t a bad guy at all. He was just a guy, trying to live his life.
The conclusion to the weird nelix and tuvok collect flowers subplot. Bringing the arc to three epsioodes.
SWEETIE, Live Long & Prosper... 😳 ... too soon?
I have no way to do Voyager watch alongs, but I may have to check this one out anyway.
If you’re in the US, Pluto has the episodes for free with ads. You don’t even have to sign up.
This is the episode we get to judge your moral code. I'm joking, of course. But there's been many... discussions about this episode over the years.
Saved two people 🤷♂️
oh shit. here we go. I bet everyone who follows y'all have been waiting for you to chime in on the Tuvix debate! It still to this day gets talked about A LOT
Literally brought up in lower decks and i want to say Starfleet Academy.
LET'S GOOOOOO. I can remember when this episode used to just get absolutely shit on as nonsensical, stupid, etc and now its everyone's favorite moral dilemma.
Really? I don't remember that, I thought this one was pretty well regarded from the beginning.