UNCUT - Return to Grace (DS9 S4E14) | Star Trek Journey 397

DS9 has a HUGE cast of recurring characters - get use to it.

I, a diehard Dukat apologist, will someday convince you Josh that Dukat is redeemable.

It's weird that this episode is built around the strength of a bottle show, the one on one character interactions, but without any of the cost saving measures that usually lead to that kind of writing. There are a bunch of guest stars, a decent number of effects shots, and new sets. It all makes for a well balanced and memorable episode IMO. A tier. A "sector" as I understand it is an area of space 20x20x20 light years across. So 8000 cubic light years. Pretty substantial amount of space, and still generally only a few star systems. Only 10 or so star systems are within a 10 light year radius of Earth. Space is pretty empty. Somehow I question whether those klingons are making it to Stovokor. Aside from violating the cease fire, they've also been launching sneak attacks and engaging in piracy. Now I don't know if any of that would lock them out of the klingon afterlife, but getting taken down by a freighter, then having your ship stolen only to then be blown up helplessly on the very freighter that defeated you, that is NOT a death worthy of song. As you said in the discussion, DS9's deep roster of characters and how much focus is put on them is the true strength of the show. Ziyal could have been a one off appearance that disappeared never to be seen again. Just another of Dukat's many kids. Instead they chose to bring her back, flesh out the character, and use her as a anchor to force Dukat and Kira to at least try to have an amicable relationship despite their history. Dukat IS charming, even if he doesn't know when to dial it down. If he were anyone else, you'd pass it off as him just being a shameless flirt. Indeed, Kira catches herself seeing him this way a couple times. And then she and the audience have to remind themselves that as much as we want to like the guy, he is at the end of the day a monster, and he can never make up for the evil he's done. That's exemplified perfectly by Kira's line about how many died for his education. All this makes for great TV though. Finally the comparison between the starfleet and cardassian rifles has M-16 vs AK-47 written all over it. We've seen both a number of times at this point. The cardassian version going back to The Homecoming in S2, and the first appearance of the starfleet version was way back in The Mind's Eye.

The narcissism angle also applies to why Dukat reacted the way that he did to the Cardassians not wanting to fight. Just as they love their children as extensions of themselves, Dukat, especially being a Cardassian where the state is paramount, also loves Cardassia as an extension of himself. So he can't let Cardassia accept defeat any more than he can let himself accept defeat. That's the main narcissist trait that keeps getting hammered home in this episode; how Dukat absolutely cannot tolerate defeat of any kind. Kira calls him out to Ziyal when she says that Dukat wouldn't have thought the occupation was a mistake if the Cardasdians had won, and she's absolutely right. He only regrets it because it was a defeat. And I'm convinced that all if his rizzing up of Kira and having a Bajoran mistress, is another narcissist way of regaining personal "victory" over the Bajorans. Remember, Bajorans are the enemy, and despite what he says, Dukat can't truly accept that they won any more than he can accept his position on the freighter because accepting either means accepting defeat. So what better way to get that victory back from the Bajorans than to get your enemy to love you and acknowledge that everything you did was right and justified and they were wrong? Narcissists believe that true victory is to make your enemies realize that they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. Once they have you docile, they know they've won. For this reason, Kira is the ultimate prize, because who better to convince than the one enemy who hates you the most? He also refuses to accept that his position as a freighter captain is a "defeat" or a permanant loss. He still treats the freighter as if it's a warship, and gets frustrated when the ship can't live up to the image he wants it/himself to have. Every time he speaks, he either rizzes/harasses Kira, or talks about what he's going to do once he's back in power, because in his mind, he's already living as if he's back in power in order to cope with his situation. I think this same mentality applies both to the freighter position, and the position of the Bajorans having won. Dukat spins both situations, and EVERY situation that could possibly be viewed as defeat as "minor setbacks" where "everything that I have lost, I WILL regain." And that way he avoids ever truly accepting defeat, or responsibility. So if the Cardassians are accepting defeat, and Dukat views Cardassia as an extension of himself, then of course he responds by refusing to accept their defeat. He was exited about getting his old position back before because that meant personal victory for him. That's also the real reason why Dukat blew up the freighter. He was declaring victory over being forced to work as a freighter captain, blowing up that hated part of his life forever. But his old position doesn't mean victory anymore if Cardassia chooses to be docile. Now, accepting that position means accepting Cardassia's defeat. He takes it personally, with his own ego spearheading the charge. He will FORCE Cardassia to not accept defeat even if that means he has to take on the whole Klingon empire by himself. Because anything else would be Dukat accepting defeat. I also want to add that when Dukat switched sides in Way of the Warrior, that was because he saw that the civilian government was winning. He switched to the winning side. Especially since the Central Command was already kind of out to get him at that point. What better way to repay Central Command for having him fall out of favor than by defeating them as part of the new civilian government. And I think the real reason why he's willing to let Ziyal live on the station isn't really for her safety. It's knowing that means that Kira is "adopting" her, and he knows that that's going to help him conquer/defeat Kira because Ziyal connects them, and Ziyal can make Kira warm up to him. That's also why he talks so highly of Kira to Ziyal and about how much the occupation "eats him up at night." He's using Ziyal to do another Narcissist tactic, making her a "Flying Monkey." He's using Ziyal as a another third party who will double down on his case and help convince others. Kira is more likely to believe all of Dukat's crap if Ziyal is saying it too. Ziyal is young and naive, and believes everything that Dukat says because she idolizes him. This makes her the perfect pawn for a narcissist to use. I'm also convinced that everything we hear about how "Cardassians love their children" and "Family is everything on Cardassia" is actually all Cardassian propaganda that is so culturally ingrained, that all Cardassian citizens wholeheartedly believe it as part of their cultural identity. This is shown pretty well in the episode "Cardassians" where that military leader is absolutely convinced that his Bajoran raised son will instantly love and recognize him as father simply because he's his son. We see first hand that this isn't the case. But that type of propaganda ties right in to the whole "loyalty to the state" structure if that same loyal structure starts at home, with the children idolizing their parents, and the parents willing to make extreme sacrifices for "family." Both Dukat and Ziyal are highly indoctrinated by this propaganda, which is part of why Ziyal's words in Indescretion convinced Dukat not to kill her, as well as why Ziyal chose the specific words that she did.

Season 4 is just so good

Finally we got another named cardassian, Namar the right hand of Dukat

So when Kira told Dukat not to kill his illegitimate half Bajoran daughter it became you break it you buy it. Who else would play surrogate mother to the child. This may be redemption for Kira but it is penance for Dukat.

So glad you liked the Starfleet Academy young adult books! 📚

Bloody good discussion.

Bajor, with a population of 4 billion, saw 10-15 million occupation related deaths over 50 years. That's 300k a year. That's less than 1 in 10,000 per year. Car accidents in the US kill more today. So when the Bajorans say the occupation was brutal, no they aren't wrong. But when the Cardassians whip out a calculator and say the occupation wasn't that bad, they aren't all that wrong either. Which is exactly what makes it interesting!

Well you guys were sure in a fun mood this video. Harness that positivity. ❤️ Also, I love all of the head canon and scenarios you guys were coming up with for “who’s going to fight who”. A&J getting into all the political scenarios and theories? Yes, please!! 🔥

A friend of mine once pointed out Dukat (the character) is like a bad scene partner actor. He’s not really listening to what the other person is saying, he’s just waiting for them to finish so that he can monologue and everyone else can march to his beat. He’s the main character.

In my head canon, the main Cardassian in The Wounded is Dukat! As great as it is it enhances the episode for me by doing so.

END ON THE SCENE!

Dukat really laying it on thick, not listening to Garek who called it out before anyone else did in Civil Defense: "It's not going to work you know, I'm talking about Major Kira, she's much too busy trying to save this station to be impressed be impressed by your incessant posturing!" "GAREK!" *looking caught* "and even if she weren't she has much better taste than to be attracted to YOU, you, a married man!"

One Point i love about DS9 is, that i can absolutly see the Episode takes the Route that Kira joins Dukat, and we get the Rest of the Season DS9 Episodes and 1-2 Episodes from their Side. ANother Point i love about DS9 is the supreme secondary Crew. And the Balls to bring even more into this 2. Crew and keep the Level of Quality.

Since you are going to ST:LV you now have Eddington, Damar, and Leeta to meet. And it looks like Ronald D. Moore is going. And a shit ton of other people. Scott MacDonald?! I'm jealous. I'm thinking about going to Philadelphia event (PA boy) especially since Robbie McNeill will be there.

No COVID jokes during the vaccination scene? I'm disappointed in you, Alex.

Dukat: You judge me too harshly! Kira: 😐

So I'm surprised nobody mentioned this. Casey Biggs makes his second appearance as Damar, a Cardassian who seems to be onboard with Dukat's mission. It's notable because way back in "The Wounded", Marc Alaimo plays Gul Macet and Biggs plays one of the two Cardassians under his command- specifically Glinn Telle. He was the one Macet confined to quarters for looking at an Enterprise computer panel (assuming this wasn't a ruse). It's cool that Alaimo and Biggs come back as Cardassians considering they were the introduction to the Cardassians. There uniforms were slightly different which isn't explained (I guess Cardassian military used armor plated uniforms back then.) Also the appearance of the Cardassians was a bit different, they were slightly more flesh colored and had what looked like vericose veins randomly on their faces. In my headcanon the universal translator does a lot including making alien humanoids appear less alien.

This episode reminds me of the kind of Zen mindset that's washed over Kira over the years, compare her in S1 to now. Her development was subtle at first but she's a different person entirely. The restraint to share a small ship with the literal tyrant of your entire species, for days or even weeks... I don't know if I'd have it in me. I might have to commit my final terrorist action, if I were in her place.

I honestly forgot about this episode. But it's a good one. Dukot and Kira have a fascinating dynamic with one another.

You hit the nail on the head, by saying that Dukat thinks he's the hero of the story. I've heard that Marc Alaimo definitely played Dukat as if he IS the hero.

It’s easy to forget that Marc Alaimo was the second choice for Gul Dukat after the original actor was replaced. The GOAT.

Oh, you just mentioned how much prior knowledge you had (or needed to enjoy this)—and that made me realize: Who on earth came up with the idea of ​​showing the two of you the *Buffy* episode "Hush"? It only really works if you’re already familiar with the characters and at least twenty other episodes! And "Hush" doesn't even have any interesting dialogue! ;)

"How many characters do we need?" .... - "Yes." What a wonderfull episode :)

Character. Development. Nobody did it better that DS9. Watching it for the umpteenth time, but getting the perspective of first-time viewers really points out to me just how much we've lost in today's 6-10 episode "seasons" compared to the old 26 episode seasons lasting six months. DS9 shows what can be done with full seasons, taking a long, serialized arc and adding in stand-alone episodes that develop characters individually. It was truly ahead of its time.

A tribute to Marc Alaimo, who manages to fit sleazebag, father and warmonger into all of 30 mins of screen time and still play the same character. That scene as he tries to convince Kira to join him with a single light on her face is masterful, and he's one of those actors who speaks volumes with nothing more than his eyes - even more impressive considering the makeup and latex covering him from head to toe.

The way I see it, Dukat would not be able to care this much about Ziyal if he didn't lose so much over her. To a man like him, the fact that he sacrificed so much for her sake means that she has to be important enough that such sacrifices are worth it, and so he has to love her to that same extent. It's the only way a man of his wgo can live with himself after falling so low.

Am I wrong in thinking Ric Flair has a branded energy drink? It's equally likely it's the exact kind of shit mad old wrestlers do, or that I've made it up 🤔

Dukat is a liar like all criminals

There is another another character: Damar. His rank is a Glinn which is practically the same as a Commander, a first officer of a Gul.

I think DS9’s writers smartly realized that 26 is a lot of damn episodes every season, and you can never have too many great characters to use to fill that much time with. I always marvel nowadays that a single season of ‘90s Trek is comprised of what is easily three seasons worth of episodes of almost any modern streaming show.

See Josh, it doesn't have to be only the main cast to be good.

I warms my heart to hear you guys talk about the chessboard with enthusiasm.

Not a fave but moves the story along

Legate Dukat just doesn't roll off the tongue . Marc Alaimo has been around since TNG season 1

No Morn. 0/10. But seriously Marc seems to grab every scene he’s in by the throat.

Marc Alaimo has always said he chose to play Dukat as if he was being shot as the hero of the story.

"ANOTHER character!?" Yep, that's definitely something this episode gives us. ☉ ‿ ⚆

Sector of space is a cube shaped area with its side measuring 20 light years. So 20 by 20 by 20.

Paul Dooley kid is really actress Roxann Biggs Dawson who plays Bellana Torres real life ex husband Casey Biggs! Small world!!!

Damar. Dukat’s right hand man in..case you guys weren’t paying attention. 😏 Was played by Casey Biggs who was married to Roxann Biggs Dawson. Belanna!

56:23 My take on Dukat is that his narcissism is capable of love. But its the sort of love that wants what it cannot have. So Ziyal here matters more to him because he was going to kill her a few episodes ago. He's prepared to go to elaborate lengths for her, inflict massive suffering on his career and family, because that's the more difficult to path to having her love and adoration. Same reason he hits on Kira throughout the episode- her affection is beyond his reach so he craves it that much more. Think about that the next time he complains how the Bajorans don't appreciate him or when he positions himself here as the last true Cardassian ready to fight for his people. Its both a compelling and repulsive character trait and the writers continue to balance it well.

Why was your Nog impression basically the Ferengi from Captain's Holiday? Lol

Aw, you guys think there are already too many characters. That is adorable.

I enjoyed this one. Mark always knocks Dukat out of the park, and this had some of his best acting up to this point. I love the irony of the Cardassians being the oppressed ones. I am not sure if that irony is lost on Dukat, but I betcha members of the Detapa Council and the civilians in general know the...well....karmic comeuppance they are getting. And look, nobody deserves to be oppressed but there's a lesson in this. It is strange to me that Kira went from talking fine and personally with Dukat at dinner, and then did a 180. I do realize why, but I would have preferred a few more shots of her realizing just who she was letting her guard down with. And see thats the thing. I feel she DOES find Dukat charming, maybe even attractive, so she had to reign herself in. It doesn't lower my score that it was so abrupt, but it did raise an eyebrow. I honestly can't say I have any complaints on my end. It's not a masterpiece, but it's extremely solid, so I'll give it a solid 'A'

Two great characters and a room. That's all Star Trek needs, baby.

Disturbed cover of “Sound of Silence” for the Dukat Cinematic edit

As soon as Kira said Ziyal can come to live on the station, you both cried out in dismay "Another character??" DS9 has more highly developed recurring characters than most other shows have main characters Garak, Nog, Rom, Morn, Dukat, Winn, Shakaar, Cassidy, Gowron, and now Ziyal. I know those people better than anyone in "Friends" and that show had only 6 main cast members

GOATed episode, honestly. So near to flawless that I can't think of anything I'd change about it.

AWESOME episode. Great dialogue, fantastic acting. Very glad Ziyal is now in the picture. A+ for me.