UNCUT - Facets (DS9 S3E25) | Star Trek Journey 368

I'm sorry, but doesn't everyone suppress memories they feel embarrassed or shameful about? Curzon was suppressing his love for Jadzia up to his dying breath as she lay beside him receiving the Dax symbiant. It only makes sense that the Dax symbiant carries on with the suppression. This is basic human behavior it is not rocket science.

The Curzon reveal wasn't "just a bit weird"... it was a LOT weird! Totally bizarre and cheapens the episode big time. I don't like the character of Curzon because it's like they can't make up their mind of who the character is: the wise, respected, and accomplished mentor; or the irresponsible, play by his own rules, jokester ladies' man? It doesn't work for me.

I’m with Alex. The lobe job was totally out of line. It’s sexual battery if it’s unwanted. In this case, Quark was into it, but it was just transparent, self-serving manipulation from Jadzia. It was gross - not because it was sexual, but because it was calculated. Pure manipulation. Curzon was still inside her to say, “consent is a fuzzy concept - if no one presses charges at the end of the day, it’s all good.”

I still think Curzon Dax would be a terrific subject for a limited series.

Good episode, but I wouldn't put it in A tier territory. It's a strong B. Honestly my favourite part of the episode is Rom threatening to burn down the bar. At this point Rom has accepted he's never going to be a successful ferengi, so his only concern is being a good father, and on that count he's winning. At least Quark seems to have accepted he's not going to win this battle by the end. What he did was wrong, but I don't see what he did as malicious. From his worldview, he believes he's doing what's best for Nog. He's misguided, but he clearly does care about his nephew. It just took Rom pushing back to make him realize that he has to let Nog make his own decisions. It is good to get a comprehensive list of the previous Dax hosts, and let the cast stretch their acting legs portraying them. I wasn't always the biggest fan of Nana's portrayal as Lela, but if you look at the records we saw in Equilibrium, we see Lela was born in 2112, and joined in 2160 at the age of 48, and then died 66 years later at the age of 114. Bearing that in mind, Nana's acting choice makes a lot more sense. It also makes her the oldest of the Dax hosts, though Curzon was host for the longest at 81 years, having been joined around the time of Star Trek 4 and dying shortly before DS9 started. That also means Tobin, Emony, Audrid, Torias, and Joran all had to be squeezed into a 60 year period. Joran was only host for a few months, but that still leaves just 15 years per host on average during that time. We can assume Torias was probably not host for long, but even if it was only for 5 years or so, that's still less than 2 decades for the other 3. Still, given Lela was almost 50 when first joined, that doesn't mean they lived short lives, and whatever experiences they had up to that point would still become part of the symbiote. Tobin was Canadian I guess with all the times he said "sorry". I think Colm did a great job capturing the nerdy, introverted guy Jadzia described in The Siege. Emony is clearly confident in herself, but mostly they just use her scene to show off that she's a gymnast, which we already knew. I agree that it's odd that Dax and Leeta are BFFs now, but it's not like there was any reason they wouldn't be friends. It was Julian that was irritated she was cockblocking him. One interesting thing that came out of that was that Jadzia took up Klingon martial arts after being joined. Having a previous host who was an athlete would seem to positively affect subsequent hosts. We don't learn a lot about Audrid. They lean into the fact she loved being a mother, but that was clearly done primarily for laughs since Quark was embodying her. I think Siddig did a decent job capturing the "reckless test pilot" persona. But even though his impulsiveness remains, I think he also captured a lot of the regret Torias feels over everything he missed out on dying so young. And then there's Joran. I think Avery's acting choices here are frankly baffling. Avery can act, no doubt, but this wasn't it. It was giving "Hannibal Lecter at home" vibes, and it just didn't work. I can't take a guy who smashes his head into a forcefield seriously. Also if Sisko died, so do Joran's memories. The whole scene was just comical in a bad way. And then there's Curzon. I think Rene did a fantastic job portraying the merged Odo/Curzon personality. He's also exactly what you'd expect given the stories; a charming asshole. Given how much Sisko has always been portrayed as the protege, I appreciate hearing the story about how he'd occasionally have to stand up to Curzon when he went too far. That adds more context to their friendship. As for him being in love with Jadzia, I don't see it as some reprehensible thing, especially since it clearly went deeper than "creepy old man wants to sleep with a woman young enough to be his granddaughter". Besides which he clearly knew it would be wrong to pursue it. Now kicking her out of the initiate program over fears his feelings would be discovered if it looked like he was playing favorites, that was wrong. I just don't think it's fair to judge someone for having feelings just because they're older. Patrick Stewart married a woman almost 40 years younger than he is. Granted the age gap was more like 70 years in this case, but he didn't act on his feelings apart from booting her from the initiate program, and he (mostly) made up for that by making sure she was readmitted and ultimately joined. As others have said, I understand Odo wanting to stay joined with Curzon. I don't know if Odo was really able to appreciate things like food and drink just because of being joined, but he would have Curzon's memories of doing those things. Moreover though, Curzon's confidence and the ease with which he interacts with people, the fun he has gambling or getting into trouble, it's all new to Odo. And as others pointed out, it's a substitute for the link with other changelings Odo doesn't have access to, so it's understandable who Odo would be fine with staying linked with Curzon. Good Dax lore, but mostly it's Curzon lore. The other hosts were a little by the numbers.

Many of the Babylon 5 crew claim Leeta was made as a rip-off of Lyta from Babylon 5. The same for Gul Dukat and Dukhat. I don't buy it. I think either it is pure coincidence, or it was pressure from studio execs to copy as much as possible (given they had read the Babylon 5 show bible when it was pitched to Paramount before Warner Brothers picked it up). But I very much doubt the writers of DS9 knew, or cared, about copying character names from Babylon 5. It would be especially ballsy, given that the actor who plays Lyta on Babylon 5 is also Nana Visitor's, and Gates McFadden's, stunt double on DS9 and TNG respectively.

I love this episode, this is the true power of sci-fi - getting people to have conversations about the meaning of reality. To quote Bill Hicks: “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.”

I feel like Jadzia has been underdeveloped this season. This episode finally gave her something. I like how she was able to defeat Joran/Sisko on her own, but she needed to as it represents her being in control of Joran. And I like that Jadzia showed confidence without relying on the Curzon part of her. There is some growth in her. It's strange how Odo this season has been connecting more with other people on the station, first Garak, now Jadzia. I can really see how things are starting to be woven into the larger tapestry. There is definite intention with the choices being made by the writing team. Lots of details.

IMO, people who have all the stories that we've heard about Curzon so far... tend not to be the greatest of people. I mean, he's sounded like the king of Animal House in some of them. This may be one of your very best post-episode discussions. I liked the reaction, loved the thoughtful discussion. Sci-Fi is a genre that can force you to look at our common experiences from a totally different angle, helping you question some of your preconceived notions. This episode falls right in line there.

Rom has 4 scenes in this episode and every one is just him supporting his son's dream. Ferengi father of the year.

A fun thought experiment we can now do is trying to determine which of Dax's hosts were parents. In "The Nagus," Jadzia said that Dax had experienced parenthood three times as a mother and twice as a father, so let's look at the hosts. Leela (f); Tobin (m); Emony (f); Audrid (f); Torias (m); Joran (m); Curzon (m); Jadzia (f) In order for Jadzia's statement to be true, all of Dax's female hosts prior to Jadzia would have to be parents by default since Jadzia herself is both single and childless as of "Facets" Given Curzon's reputation and self-professed "eye for the ladies," he is almost certainly one of the two fathers. Joran's period of joining was too short for Dax to have experienced parenthood through him. That leaves either Tobin or Torias as the second father. I personally lean more towards Tobin than Torias. Torias died young in a piloting accident. While it is possible that he could have had a child, it seems unlikely (partly because he has enough tragedy in his backstory, there's no need to pile on). Jadzia described Tobin in "The Siege" as having "barely a sex life and no imagination," but that's not the same thing as no sex life (even if it did take until Curzon's zhian'tara for him to get drunk). Another reason to suspect the second father is Tobin is that Jadzia said she hadn't felt terribly successful as a parent. Curzon the exhibitionist and Tobin the mousey academic would fit that profile.

It's not just that Odo didn't see the point in eating and drinking, but that he physically couldn't. He could chew, but he's got no digestive tract... but once Curzon joined with him, Odo shape-shifted into a melding of himself and Curzon, including said digestive tract. Probably all his internal organs.

If this was in the first season sisko would have taken over the station

I think Jorel was Superman's dad. Joran dax was a former host. So it should be obvious that after the memories of a host is transferred the current host would lose systemic access to those memories, but the current and past host are not static during that time, the previous hosts get the new memories of each new host and the new host gets memories of the interaction outside of the static memories, so when it is over the latest host would have their own new memories of talking to the old hosts and the new memories of all the old hosts new memories of interacting with the latest host, a nice grounding point for each new host.

Transfigurations sucked

Solid episode. Does nothing for the narrative, of course, but it does build Dax and Odo. Joran was a bit unsubtle, but I liked the character acting for the most part. B- I guess. Meh.

One of the subtle things I love about this episode is Jadzia's lack of confidence when she doesn't have Curzon as part of her personality anymore. Curzon is 10 lbs of confidence in a 5 lb bag and when he's gone, we see that a lot of what we assumed was Jadzia's natural confidence was coming from that part of the mix.

Jazdia, early 20’s at the time. Curzon, pushing 90 years old probably. Ya, let’s not dwell on that for too long. 😩😩

“…no Jo’Bril is the guy from Suspicions”. “Jor-el…” “Jor-el…Ya…” Omg, I was laughing too much. 🤣🤣

I can see a couple of reasons why they used Leeta in this episode.

The interaction with Joran suggested that Jadzia has a bit of Impostor Syndrome. So the best explanation was that she was afraid to dig around in Curzon's memories for why he washed her out, instead of that being the first thing she tried to find out about. There is also some suggestion that a past host persona can actively hide memories from the current host.

I think it was not that Nog did not know to stand up when ending the holoprogram but that he was so annoyed with Jake for interrupting his training that he forgot.

Odo is of a species that needs to be linked. So linking with the persona of Curzon was part of his biological need which normally would be fulfilled by linking with the founders. He tries to be a Solid but he is not.

Clearly the expensive episodes require a fair number of station bound 'bottle shows'. 'Facets' is average, but is is hard to keep coming up with stories confined to the station that will keep the various segments of the audience content. I don't care that much about the Trill. I get the impression that Jadzia/Dax was created with the intention that they'd think of something along the way to mine the potential of her species. But I personally think they are going around in circles by restricting her to talking about or experiencing former hosts. The show hasn't come up with a compelling Trill-specific primary role for Farrell. And there was a pivot last season to youthful exuberance and overindulgence last season.

As for Leeta, I understand your gripes about her, but I don't find it hard to believe she was close with Jadzia. We know from previous episodes that Jadzia hangs around Quarks and gambles there. Leeta being a Dabo girl would mean she would be around a lot of the time. To me, it didn't seem out of the blue from a character perspective for her to be a friend. We also don't know how much time has past in universe from the last Leeta episode. Sure, from the outside as a viewer, it might feel forced, but I'm okay with it.

Love this episode. One of my favourites of the season. I like how we get to have Jadzia interact with all her old hosts, I loved Rene getting to play Curzon, I liked how you never really know where this episode is going for most of it. Sometimes it seems a filler episode where we speed run all the former hosts and at one point it seems like her evil host might try to escape the brig. Even the B plot with Nog is some good character development and doesn't take me out of the epsiode.

I liked this episode! I was worried YOU wouldn't like this episode!

I love this one. If nothing else to see the the conclusive list of past lives for Dax, and the diverse crowd of experience at her back with our cast strutting their stuff in them. Add in a Nog story featuring the committed and supportive father he has in Rom, its a real gem. I guess my only complaint is with Odo, seems out of character for him to go along with Curzon and his decision. I get he was a big personality, but I wonder just how he was able to override Odo like that.

Regarding Odo, I think for the first time, he understands what it means to be like everyone else. His "confidence" as simply Odo was from isolation, but with Curzon, his confidence is in himself. Odo's experience with "the Great Link" was his first time feeling "whole," but with Curzon, he has a new sense of being whole. He's no longer an outsider, but he's like everyone else. This is why he wanted to stay joined with Curzon.

I did briefly think wouldn't Jadzia have known Curzon was in love with her, but as she kind of said to Sisko she was afraid of finding out his reasons, so she had probably always avoided accessing those memories. I love this episode, it's an S from me.

Also, is the logic here (in this case, for Jadzia not already knowing Curzon loved her), but for any similar situation: "Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but I liked the episode, so I'm going to hand waive it and dismiss it under the excuse of 'it's a TV show / it's all fake / none of it is real'"? Part of me understands that, but another part of me thinks it's generally best to want the show to be as good as possible and to not just lower my standards because I happened to like something. Plus, the more you embrace 'who cares, it's fake', the easier it is to have that attitude more and more when the writing is lacking. Sort of a 'heart vs brain' internal conflict for me personally. There are times when my heart wins, but I'd say most of the time I think my brain is correct here and I try not to give in and look the other way.

I guess my question is: If you're this down on the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar, were you this down on other threats of the past in Star Trek, like the Borg, the Cardassians, the Romulans, or the Klingons (and for these last three, I mean back when they were basically just bad guys)? And I thought back at the end of TNG Season 1, you wanted those other parasites to come back when they had almost taken over Starfleet?

"What's a person besides their memories?" Well, consciousness, the essence of what makes us "us", the part of us that thinks and feels and decides, all at the center of what creates those memories. But sure, people are 'just a collection of memories'...

I thought the first 3/4 were rather ho-hum, but I liked the last 1/4. So much so, that it's my favorite trill episode so far. Loved Rene's acting from Curzon to the end in his scene with Terry Ferrell. I'd go B overall.

I have a theory that this is a rework of an older script for when they had Keiko as a regular. Leeta's inclusion is a little jarring in this rewatch. Just a guess. I'm too lazy to do any research on it.

The Guardian was the guy who was slated to die in Voyager's S1 episode Emanations I think. The one who disappeared into the mountains and allowed Harry to take his place in the euthanasia machine.

It’s already been established that the Dax symbiont is 300 years old, but Lela, the first host, died in 2226 (145 years before this episode). The symbiont was at least 100-125 years old when it was joined to Lela.

Let’s meet some of Dax’ previous hosts… Jor-El and Thesaurus… 😂

To use a quote from quite a few reactions, it was fine. C+

Gotta love it when a writer writes a line about how there’s no profit in being a writer.

Jadzia has all Curzon's memories. (Or at least she did, before this ceremony). The storyline make no sense. She should know he was in love with her.

Yes, Josh. YES YES YES. The modern audience seems to think sci-fi is all about space battles and techno-babble. It's not. It's about this kind of stuff. Also, great explanation/theory about memories and access.

Thesaurus? 🤣

Didn't Odo say at one point that he tried eating, but the food had nowhere to go?

It is like some kind of time paradox. I know that Rom is one of my favorite DS9 characters. It is interesting on a re-watch, to see how it happened, bit by bit.

If they made a Curzon movie who should play Curzon?

René Auberjonois acting as joined Odo and Curzon was just fantastic acting and a pure delight to watch. And Quarks face after Dax sexually manipulates him is absurdly funny, every damned episode these days has a moment where I almost choke to death, can't be eating during these reactions anymore. If I were Odo, 100% I'd want to stay merged with Curzon if it meant the ability to taste food and drink. The entire reason I want to be immortal is so I can live each day and eat delicious pastries and steak and burgers and cheeseless pizza... On the memory issue, I agree with both of you. Hell sometimes I can barely remember my feelings from last month, let alone the, likely intentionally suppressed emotions of another person mashed into my brain by a slug symbiote in my tummy. Also, there are many forms of sci-fi, I'd say. The human flavors, such as we see here. Telepathy, transference, souls. In many ways, it's sci-fi that bleeds into fantasy. It's an excellent writing tool to diagnose and explore the human condition, even if it's with alien species. Then, there's technological flavor. The ships and phasers and warp drives, the kind of geekiness of Worf's father proudly proclaiming to Picard that he has all the specifications of the Galaxy class ship at home! It's more divorced from humans. It's colder but precise. Finally, there's cosmos sci-fi, the exploration element for its own sake. Cataloging new solar systems, traveling the stars. The thrill of discovery. I would add battle flavor too, but that's general to any fiction medium. Above these types of fiction are the goals, to delve and expand on individual characters in your roster, or dissect philosophical underpinnings of existence itself? Or perhaps to pose a moral challenge, either directly to the audience, or far better (requiring adept skill) to the characters. A great example of that would be Drumhead. Episodes of TV which can pull off all 3 goals are rare gems, but stupendous indeed. The best part of following your journey through Trek and other shows, for me, is enhancing my appreciation for the human factor. Character moments which I've either tolerated in the past, or lukewarm enjoyed like tepid Dr. Pepper, have evolved into scenes that move me in their own merit, and all without losing my deep love of tech, to the point of being as delicious as an ice cold root beer float.

My thought is that the symbiote has all the memories, but has a mechanism to protect the current host from being overwhelmed by them. Perhaps this ritual is used to unlock more memories of the past hosts within a safer context than just dumping them all right onto the host with no warning. The past host can choose what should be shared after interacting with the current host. Think about how Jadzia had no idea about Joran. Dax must have known, but Jadzia did not. Dax decided the memory of Curzon loving her would be a good one to save for the ritual when she can get more context about it.

More development on the Nog front. Fun little Easter egg(fitting with Easter just 8 days ago), they like to reuse props on Star Trek a lot. I noticed this one years ago. Have a close look at the Tem pad Chief O’Brian is holding starting around 8:48 into the episode…🤔 I wonder if he borrowed it from Julian without checking what it was(might be the good doctors anti 🐓-block app? 😏)

DS9 sex scoreboard Uuummmm The Board is just so confused. Given everything said, given Jadzia and Curzon where re-joined ……uuuummmmm…... Is that a score for Jadzia and Curzon? is that a “re-joinin’ da johnson“ The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 +? Bashir 3 Sisko 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Jake 1 GUEST: Curzon +? DETAILS: We just don’t know whether or not to count it. Please comment on thoughts. As of now it is a no. (we guess)

Really liked this one. The revelation came a bit left-field but honestly, it made sense. Based on what we knew of Curzon, there couldn't really be any other explanation than love. Without spoiling, it doesn't take as genius to work out this isn't the last time Quark will be seen to disapprove of Nog's choices, but I think a lot of people are very unfair towards Quark's attitude (not his actions interfering with the Holosuite program, more in a general sense). He sees this as the beginnings of the erosion of everything he holds dear. It started with Nog and he sees it with his mother. I just can't blame him for that. It's driven entirely by fear, which is as valid as the love for Jadzia that drove Curzon.

Still not crazy about this one. Great ideas, poor execution, in my opinion.

I love these random drops instead of going by the release schedule. Do you watch a few days or a week in advance before we get to see them?

Your comment regarding Leeta being a convenient addition: if anything, the convenient part is that the people she's closest too are the main characters. Like Sisko, Bashir, even Quark, I get. But Odo? I didn't think Odo would be in her top seven.

The one thing they gloss over with the potential of the Dax character is phenomenological experience. Have you wondered if your red is the same as your friends red? Like you both look at the same color and call it red but what does that color look like to your friend? Dax knows.

Strong A gives nice insight into Trill lore, also one thing a lot of people sleep on that it gives Odo an experience into human/solid existence that he didn't have before.

This is a weird episode for me I never really liked it at all until about 5 years ago I decided to give it another try, and I think it's my favorite of the season. To add to the strangeness I couldn't possibly put my finger on the reason why I feel like that.

I always liked this one. It let the cast stretch their acting legs quite a bit! Avery Brooks doing a borderline Hannibal Lecter thing was great! Nana Visitor's performance as an old lady always stood out to me as well. Great acting in this one.

Great discussion! I really like this episode but always hated the 'Curzon was in love with Jadzia' twist. It just comes out of nowhere and IMO makes Curzon come across really badly and as a horrible person instead of as just a loveable but flawed rogue as Sisko makes him out to be. Destroying a woman's lifelong ambitiion just because you were in love with her is an awful thing to do, and I don't buy the whole 'well at least he felt guilty about it' excuse.

Friendly reminder that Boy Wonder Wesley Crusher failed his exam. Nog is already better than Wesley.

Fun behind the scenes fact that might be in the patron takes - Rosalind Chao was supposed to be the body for one of the hosts. But she wasn’t available. So we got Leeta instead.

In the first season, it had been mentioned at least twice that Dax had roughly 300 years of life experience (once in "The Emissary" and again in "The Forsaken") . While the symbiont has had 8 hosts so far including Jadzia, there's no reason to assume each one of those hosts were in their 20s when they were joined nor that they all lived to a ripe old age. Curzon was definitely geriatric when he passed away, but he could have gotten the Dax symbiont in his 60s for all we know.

They went through the hosts too fast but that’s ok I wanted more Nog. Great discussion

The regular railing against season ending cliffhangers is funny given only 4 of the 13 Star Trek season finales, we’re cliff hangers. 9 of the season finales (7 of you exclude series finales) weren’t cliff hangers, including the first 2 of DS9 and the Voyager ep you just watched.

I love this episode. To me, DS9 excels at two things - big, political plots and character studies. It's hard to get both in a single episode, so it makes me really appreciate it when they take the time to concentrate on one in a single episode and do it well. No notes.

I still say they should have transferred Joran's memories to Molly. Even if she went psycho and tried to kill everyone, how much damage could she possibly do? A couple of ankle bites is the worst they could expect

The names of the hosts you might have missed were Emony, embodied by Leeta, and Torias, embodied by Julian. In terms of your comments of when Lela, the first Dax host lived it was actually an info in Equillibrium, written in the Dax file that appears on screen for a moment. She lived in the 22nd century and died in early 23rd century in 2226. Knowing that Curzon was involved in Khitomer negotiations of 2293 with the Klingons where he met Kang (info from Blood Oath), means that Tobin, Emony, Audrid, Torias and Joran were all hosts between 2226 and sometime prior to 2293.

RE: the past hosts being memories. They're all alive someway in Dax. So yeah, I think the have an advance understanding and sense of honor re: returning to the symbiont also... I know you're not being super serious but if a Jem Hedar episode happens, why not have fun with it? You guys seem to like Marvel action adventure. there are 26 episodes in a season. Embrace the varitety.

Alex's reasons why he liked the episode -They went the smart route -No Juran murder action plot -No Host Pyramid -Character route Is the reason DS9 is the best Trek. They almost always take the smart route. Generally you get your character episode, comedy episode, OR you get your action / adventure episode. They generally don't mix genres and make it dumb and instead have faith in the audience.

This Leeta hatred will not stand. She doesn't have to do anything besides be in frame and be the goddess that she is. :)

Jadzia had a fully suppressed host Joran (she didn't even know he existed), so I think it's fair to assume Kurzon could have suppressed those specific memories. Also, suggesting Garak as a possible host is really hilarious! Good reaction!

There was another TOS call back besides the Tranya. That was a Saurian brandy bottle in Odo's office.

On this rewatch, I’m kind of impressed with how unlikable the writers and Shimerman are willing to make Quark. I mean, sabotaging Nog’s dream even after watching him spend months trying to achieve it? Damn, dude. I do like that, in that final scene, Quark finally appears to have surrendered, or is at least resigned to Nog and Rom’s choice. Also, I got the feeling Rom didn’t actually tell Nog what Quark did? Probably trying to protect Quark there, even after what he’s done.

Welp, since y'all are all about making comparisons, Echevarria *also* wrote 'Transfigurations'!

Scully's face was incredible for most of the discussion. The Picasso Is Out There. She's better than Troi. Seriously though, aside from also wondering when the hell Dax and Leeta became besties, I thought this was the perfect way to expand on the Trill lore. Rene Auberjonois unleashed is a force of nature.

I knew if nothing else you guys would pop for Rom telling off Quark.

Famous Dax host Jor-El, father of Superman!

My headcanon for why Dax didn't know about Curzon's feelings is it was something the symbiont itself was hiding to protect her, like the existence and memories of Joran.

Finally they get to meet all the 🪱

just finished learning curve a few minutes ago, time to jump into another one! appreciate all the early uploads.

Yes I'm right on time!!!!