UNCUT - Journey's End (TNG S7E20) | Star Trek Journey 316
Comments (91)
Fun fact... the actor who played "The Traveler" Eric Menyuk was the finalist for the role of Data and was given the role of The Traveler as a consolation.
Still think this is dull and a heavy handed clunker of an episode. Wil Weaton is a dick IRL which doesn't help.
Why is every human religion in Star Trek gone except for American Indian religions?
Because we will need to shed superstitions about supernatural gods in order to reach the stars
Barely a banger… B-
Such a great discussion. But Josh is right. It's a good episode that gave a satisfying resolution to a returning character. Plus Gates' face acting is unparalleled.
I made some comments on here earlier about how I wasn't really a fan of this one. Particularly regarding the whole "Wesley is a Time Lord now" thing. However, upon actually WATCHING this episode again, surprisingly I actually really like it now. Mainly because I've been getting into a bunch of spiritual stuff lately such as Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and studying various teachings from various religions. So now I actually really appreciate this episode from that perspective. In particular, the words of the Native Americans and the Traveler in this episode actually really line up with all of that. I can even appreciate the Wesley plot now. Both him being a total jerk at first because he's basically going through a spiritual crisis and doesn't know how to handle it except by lashing out, and even the ending where he pulls himself out of time. I can appreciate the ending now if I interpret that as if pulling ourselves out of what we consider reality into 4D space or whatever, is actually something that all humans are, or will eventually become capable of. Maybe Wesley is just a little more evolved there, like he's the next step. But ultimately maybe his journey is no different than our own. I also used to never understand why Native Americans were in this episode at all. But again, it makes sense if the whole point of the episode was to give Wesley a spiritual journey to tie up all of the Traveler stuff earlier in the show, and give him a sendoff out of Star Fleet. The Native Americans were just a vehicle because their beliefs tie in with a journey like that, and with stuff that the Traveler says. Also I didn't feel any white guilt or preachiness here. The Picard ancestor thing not only is a good character thing for Picard to deal with, as Josh said. But I also interpret the Native American belief here not as "Picard is directly responsible for something his ancestor did 700 years ago," but as this being an example of Native Americans also believing a common abstact spiritual concept that we are all connected on a spirit/soul level. And on THAT level, our ancestors still guide and influence us, or in this case, can create karmic debts. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with any real Native American beliefs to know how accurate anything presented in this episode actually is to those cultures, but that is a common spiritual concept in many belief systems, and I think I remember hearing that Native Americans believe that as well.
Guys….how do you reference The Wounded *all the time* without remembering that there was a Federation-Cardassian war? You know, with the main thing you reference being O’Brien and his “It’s not *you* I hate, Cardassian; it’s what I became *because of* you”? 😆 Edit: Yeah, there we go. You called back to it. But still. Haha. And to be clear, I wouldn’t think anything of it at all if you’d just forgotten normally; it’s *only* because you reference it so much that I thought it notable at all.
They remember the character moments more than the technical aspects; they discuss it here thinking it was just a small skirmish or maybe going down to rescue some other colony and being caught in the crossfire.
I like this one. I thought it worked well and the vision/spiritual aspect worked for me but it depends on whether youve had an expereince like that to some extent to relate.
1:12:10 The war was with the Federation. By my recollection it was retconned to have been happening when TNG started. The treaty was signed 3-4 seasons earlier, when the Cardassians first appeared on the series.
not retconned. I'd say that the invasion of Soukara was the real end before TNG but border skirmishes went on for the next two years before a cease fire was formalized. Recall that the Federation probably couldnt seal the deal because the gillworms were weakening starfleet
I neither love nor hate this one. Somehow I'm sitting between you two. 😁
4:00 Nope! You will never guess. LOL!
Besides Ensign Ro, Wesley is my favorite member of TNG. He happens to star in a few solid episodes, he is also the only one in the crew that is appropriate for the on the nose, sentimental, and wholesome writing. In a show that has consistently written adults in stories for kids going as far back as Data's 10 yr old pen pal and Worf's sadness he isn't going to have a Bar Mitzvah with pain sticks, Wesley was the actual kid that should have gotten the story about being awkward with girls, not Geordi. The first Traveler episode was one of the best of the bleak season one, and First Duty is just one of the best period. He also featured prominently in Datalore, another solid episode, The Game, a pretty fun one, and he was also involved in the decent season two episode with the little thingies that came to life, and the one where Beverly was alone on the ship. He also had a nice scene with the kid and the dead mother. People resent him needlessly because he was a kid starring in adult stories, but that's a lot better for my money than adults starring in children's stories.
I’m with Josh, I always really liked this episode. It’s great see the traveler again, and for the series to follow up on a season 1 thread. Also, utilizing the Native Americans to be the vessel that Wesley uses to begin this journey is cool because I have such respect for their cultures and beliefs and their deep spiritual ties. With Gates, you can see about 100 emotions and thoughts go through her in the space of 3 seconds when she is saying goodbye to Wesley.
I still think the traveler was stirring Wesley up some but on another watch it wasn't as overt as I originally felt.
Having just rewatched Season 1 Where No One Has Gone Before, the end scene has Picard summoning Wesley to bridge, immediately making him an Acting Ensign and ordering him to begin his Starfleet Studies. Joining Starfleet was expected of him. So his realization that his isn’t for him makes sense. It was never his choice. It also mirrors real-life Wil Wheaton
Well, yeah, it was expected because he made it *extremely clear* from the very moment he wanted to see the bridge, and especially sat in Picard’s chair and knew the controls on the arms that that was what *he* wanted.
There was an actual war between the federation and the cardassians prior to tng. Obrien was in actual combat and killed a cardassian enemy combatant, iirc. In The Wounded, Obriens former captain goes rogue because he believes the cardassians are planning to restart the war or something.
This episode blows goats
This reaction lowkey made me spit out my Pepsi. Love it!!
I loved it too. A-tier. The plot with Picard and the Natives especially hits. When distant bureaucrats, even with the best of intentions, start playing with your entire existence, culture, history, like pawns on a chess board, no. Something is deeply wrong about that picture. Sure, it's a bit on the nose as Alex mentioned but it didn't bother me. Maybe because my bias has me favoring the Indians? Wesley's departure was well-called, the traveler coming back, I never guessed at that in my first watch, but it makes sense given what he said to Picard back in S1.
Quick question that you have probably answered a zillion times, but do you guys think you’ll venture onto voyager and Picard? And are you going to start the next gen movies after this? I’m sorry if this is a repetitive question lol
We are doing the whole franchise
Wesley deserved better.
Unlike most tv series, they knew they were going straight to movies. This influenced how they did or didn't wrap up character's stories.
One of the best Episodes of the season!
yeah i never really cared for the creepy traveler and to be honest Wes was kind of the B plot and it seemed forcwed into this episode. There's one more good episode before the finale and this was'nt it, this ep was'nt terrible its just kinda was, and i was kinda dissapionted they glossed over "the Incident" with Beta Sqaudron that was brought up recently in Lower Decks as More hard times for Wes. Wes Leaves Starfleet due to their Hands off nature, then immediately jumps into bed with the traveler who tells them to not gwt involved... WTF C+
Late 90's pan flute makes an appearance in the score? Oh god here we go
I never noticed this before, but Admiral B*tcheyov is actually on the correct side the entire time. * She saw the exact same historical parallels, made the same objection as Picard did, with the same argument to her own higher ups BEFORE she even sat down to give Picard his orders. * She made an appeal for an emergency session of the Federation Council to revisit this issue and had it shot down DAYS before Picard implored her to do that exact same thing. * She accepts her place in the command structure, defers to the positions specifically entrusted with these decisions and the people elected specifically to make them, then is firm with her subordinates that these are orders and we don't get to be the decision makers here. Just like Picard did with his own subordinates. Is this another 'Captain Jericho' situation where the abrasive commander is actually in the right and doing a good job? (Notices Maquis I&II are coming up soon) Well...
Eh, but at a certain point, if an order is evil, regardless of how much it was deliberated, following orders is no excuse, and in fact it becomes one's duty to disregard those orders. I do respect that the Admiral at least tried to fight it using official channels.
Zzz..Zzz... Oh wait the Episode is over! Thank God.
In retrospect this episode seems very odd. I'm not going to say why (for obvious reasons), but someone clearly forgot this story existed. Or they assumed the audience wouldn't remember it.
It's very tough to talk about this episode because of....reasons that cannot be talked about yet. Hell I'm afraid saying that may be too much info. I can't really comment on the reasons that this episode resonates in retrospect later on. It makes it so that I couldn't really say why I sorta liked it. I think it's safe to say this. This is an episode that goes up a grade or so upon rewatch, after watching all 90's Trek. Other than that, I THINK i know what you're talking about, but I think it holds most aspects to future continuity rather than breaking it. Not that some things aren't broken, but yea. Thats all I can say for now. I swear I am trying hard to be careful lol.
I like this episode except always referring to them as "Indians" which even felt out of place back in the 90s when the episode came out
So I took Native American studies a few years ago. My professor who was Native American constantly called his people "Indians" during class. When asked why, he laughed and said "we never cared about that. We do not care what people call us, as long as you remember us." So there's that. I don't think it matters to Indians/native Americans themselves.
I hear some of your sentiment there Alex, but all can say is that there IS a reason they chose to show a Native American Culture at the Fed/Cardassian Border.... to be continued....
Yes and they should have just introduced that reason
On my first watch i really didn't like this one and that put me off re-watching it for a long time, but my last few watches i've really enjoyed it. Low A.
A subtle moment. As Data and Geordi leave Wesley early on, Data tells him Goodbye, indicating this may be their final meeting. BTW, Ned Romero played the Klingon in TOS's A Private Little War.
There was a devastating war between Cardassia and the Federation. It happened off screen, before the series started. O’Brien fought in that war before he was assigned to the Enterprise. A lot of the stories involving the Cardassians follow from the consequences of that war, like the episode in which Picard discovers that the Cardassians are secretly re-arming areas in violation of the treaty that ended the war. Remember Picard turning his back on the Cardassian Gul after telling him he knew what they were up to.
I think O’Brien called it the border wars
"Make sure to dress always warmly" Ohh, now I get something. Funny!
and thus trek universe said shut up Wesley’ one last time
Episode is completely unsubtle. Meh. Am I allowed to get up from my desk now?
TNG: The Enterprise and its crew triumphed again, resolving a tough conflict with a well-thought-out diplomatic compromise! Everything will be fine! ...a few weeks later... DS9: WTF!
I didn't remember that the Cardassian/Federation border conflict started in TNG. Cool.
Solid B episode tbh. Some hate the wesley story, I think it's a good show of someone finding his real path, no matter how bumpy. The Native aspect is a bit preachy but perhaps we need that, sometimes? Good callbacks and returning characters with development - even Fleet Admiral (formerly Admiral) Nechayev who almost every time butts heads with picard and the enterprise, and now this time they recognise that and extend an olive branch. Just solid, good shit.
Boring and lame. Not the first time this season brings back something very unnecessary from an early season. I really didn't need a continuation of the "Wesley is special" storyline.
I don't hate this one as much as most, but it's still C tier for me. Some good scenes especially with Beverly, but Wes being an insufferable dick for so much of the episode makes you glad he's gone at the end and resentful they wasted one of the few remaining episodes on this. A lot of others have given analogies so I won't get too much into it, but yes there was a roughly 2 decade war with Cardassia. More than a cold war, but not a near peer conflict. Regarding this direction to take Wesley in, I don't really have any issue with him choosing to do something other than starfleet, and I get bringing back a long running storyline, but honestly the Traveler is just weird. This is no more interesting than continuing in starfleet IMO. Even referencing back to the Mozart line would have been fine, but I think it would have been far more powerful for him to set off on his own path rather than just follow someone else. There are many more satisfying ways they could have played this. And since you've seen The Maquis, the deal to leave the colonies in place predictably didn't really work out. I get the natives not wanting to uproot again, but they were being seriously naive about whose backyard they were living in. Now also to be fair, the federation always struck me as rather weak here. Given the technological and economic edge the federation has, there's no reason they should have conceded ANY territory. They should have told the Cardassians "you can either accept it or we'll gather up the fleet and MAKE you accept it, but the border isn't changing. Your choice".
The ties between Native Americans and their land is probably why they were chosen for this show. Naivety would not therefore be the issue. Since this episode is clearly intended to tie into DS9's two-parter, there is a corresponding unwillingness to migrate regardless of the circumstances.
remember in The Wounded the captain who wanted to continue the war and chief, they were at war before
One sword, at least to defend thy rights One faithful harp, to praise thee
Respectfully Alex, about your comment at 1:19:48 — I believe you are looking at Wesley’s reactions the wrong way. He is a super genius and teenager. At this point his depression, that haughty attitude he had with Geordi, his slipping grades…many young people of above average intelligence act out because of the restrictions laid upon them by society and the restrictions they lay upon themselves as well. Everyone knows Wesley is supposed to be smart. But what if he was even smarter than he’s ever let on? Trying to act as “normal” as possible, simply to be accepted. And he finally had enough. Saying “Well if he didn’t want to be in Starfleet anymore, why would he care about warp theory and stuff?” is silly when you think about it. Wes was always about the science. When he confronted Geordi with that attitude, he seemed like someone who was weary of hiding his light under a bushel. He could tell by looking at the mechanism that it wouldn’t work and was angry and frustrated that this man who was a friend and mentor couldn’t see it. Disappointed as well, I’d imagine. This man who taught him so much in his youth was now magnitudes beneath him. When Wesley was young, the non-linear Traveler already knew what he would become in time. And now is that time.
I would imagine one reason Gates and Wil Wheaton pulled off those emotional scenes so well is their real life relationship. I’m sure by now you are well aware that Wil Wheaton had been emotionally abused by his parents since childhood. He basically their money machine and performing monkey. The whole TNG cast pretty much spiritually adopted him and he and Gates had a very close relationship. He basically considered her more of a mother than his own mother and Gates was very supportive and protective of him. They were probably working from their genuine emotions.
He calls her his "space mom".
This episode takes place in 2370, in the 2350s and early 2360s, there were the border wars between the Cardassians and Federation. It's basically Vietnam for the Federation. It's not a huge war where Earth is in any danger, but it was brutal on the front lines for the people fighting it. So basically, O'Brien is a Star Trek version of a Vietnam veteran. During this time, the Federation seems to have bumped up against the borders of several lesser empires that fought minor wars in the same vein.
Probably the best analogy of all the comments here
This tends to be considered one of the worst episodes of TNG. You've got Mary Sue Crusher finally one upping himself by ascending to become a higher being; and you've got the really problematic and stereotypical depiction of Native Americans, and then to make it worse it turns out that one of them was The Traveller all along basically appropriating Native American culture to help Wesley discover his superpowers.
I’ve never heard of any fan considering this episode to be one of the worst
You guys need to watch the wounded again. The federation-Cardassian war is literally part of O'brien's backstory.
Also funny comment about the Cardassians having inferior weapons. Just about every species from the Klingons and Romulens to the Gorn and the Tholians. Its very rare we get a race that can go toe to toe with the Federation. The willingness to absorb tremendous losses and use underhanded tactics goes a long way in fighting the UFP.
This was never even close to one of my favorite TNG episodes, but the image of Wesley and the Traveler walking away from the conflict really stuck with me on my original viewing and since then on repeat viewings. I just find something kind of powerful about that scene, that implies that there are things much more important than petty skirmishes between races.
I think First Duty would have been a better end for Wesley, except he's kicked out and goes off to do something else. I'm not sure Dr Bev should be happy about the Traveller spending all his time with Wes, she needs to get some kind of restraining order, no closer than 50 feet at any time
Do you think the traveler has been watching Wesley while he takes sonic showers?
People hate the magic Wesley time lord development. He was a boy genius Starfleet officer and it seemed he’d always be that. So I never really saw another destiny for him. 🤷♂️ After all these years I guess I’m ok with it..
I never liked him as a character so whatever they did with him was whatever lol
I guess this one is a guilty pleasure for me. I love things coming full circle with the Traveler, I love the continuity of "the Admiral in charge of Cardassian stuff" coming back, and the shades of grey that come with Cardassian politics that help connect the shared universe of DS9 & TNG. Even the fact that we see a Gull that was just in a DS9 episode, it's almost like the writers actually know what they are doing....
She was referred to as Fleet Admiral, which means she is THE top officer at starfleet. There's only one fleet admiral
You may have forgotten, Picard was a parent on Kataan. He was also having discussions with his son there, about him leaving his studies and focusing on music. I remember you not liking the chemistry Stewart had with his own son lol.
I’ve always felt this was a reasonable wrap up of Wesley story, especially after the First Duty. It ties back to season 1. It’s clear back then that Wesley had a potential that didn’t just mean starfleet. Probably a B for me.
A normal human born of normal parents becomes NEO in the Matrix and steps out of the simulation? That gets an E from me....Wesley was always one of the cringe characters of this show- they even mock it in Galaxy Quest- so no reason to b ring him back- let alone for some bad writing like this....
I'm somewhat between you guys. Not close to my favorite this season, but by no means did I dislike it. For me, it's a solid B epiosde. As far as the previous war with the Cardassians, I believe it was called The Boarder Wars. O'Brian fought them at Setlek 3 (spelling?) I really don't have much else to say about this episode at THIS this time anyway. And yes!!! Great Jason X shirt! A sequel that is actually VERY good. Better than it has any right to be. I feel like everyone who says they hate it because it's "in space" are the fans who actually never watched it lol.
Jason X does rock!
Yeah, much like Josh, I really like this episode even though on paper it doesn't necessarily look like something I'd love.
I've never understood the people who wanted Wesley to just go through the same "be in Starfleet" thing as every other character. I'm kinda aligned with Josh here, Im not a Wesley stan but Id rather he end up somewhere unique in the end.
I think it's more about not needing to be special to be your own person. And about how if you're gifted you don't have to be jesus to fulfill that potential. Becoming a time-lord doesn't feel as satisfying an end for his journey because I don't like the idea that if you're a 'special' kid that you're a disappointment if all you do is excel in something you enjoy that 'normal' people also do for a living. Episode 1 Wesley is OBSESSED with Starfleet, knows the layout of all the consoles, so it's perfectly natural to see the mastery of that path as the natural conclusion to his arc.
If we had not had the episode First Duty, this Wesley episode would not have made sense to me. But, I think after experiencing the death of a friend which he shared responsibility for, I can see him coming to this decision, so I am okay with it.
Yep, The Wounded, guys. The Chief himself says "the war is over" or something. I ALWAYS thought them just shoving a war in that would've happened and ended just before TNG started didn't make a lot of sense. The Bajoran occupation partially overlapped with that war, but was NOT the war. It was separate. Ensign Ro's first appearance tells us the Federation didn't interfere in THAT because it was outside of their territory. I think the idea in DS9 is that the Bajorans themselves asked the Federation for help. Which makes sense since they know they fought the Cardassians recently.
Starfleet fought several small wars in the two decades before TNG starts. The Cardassians, the Tholians, the Tarellians(? Whoever kidnapped Jono)
The Federation and Cardassians absolutely were at war - the border treaty mentioned here is the result of the post-war negotiations finally being finished. O'Brien fought in the war. Maxwell still thought about being at war with the Cardassians in the wounded and Miles had to remind him the war was over.
The war is over? Tell that to the Cardassians who are breaking that treaty right now. Don't believe me? Beam over and see for yourself. You know, this room is kinda musty - like a bureaucrat's office.
This was better than I remembered it.
Yeah TNG is good at having the same actor playing the same character character. Except once.
Federation and Cardassia had conflicts and battles and skirmishes that never fully escalated into a war but it brought a lot of casualties on both sides and the Cardassias were an enemy to the Federation until not too long ago
They were definitely at war, its mentioned from the very first appearance of the Cardassians in The Wounded.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what Josh means by it being refreshing to see an Earth colony. We've seen a lot of colonies of people who left Earth. Everything from Up the Long Ladder to The Ensigns of Command to Paradise on DS9 just a couple of weeks ago and quite a few in between.
I didn’t remember the planet of Ensigns of Command being humans, you’re right. In Paradise they were trapped so that was a bit different. I just meant a human colony where the episode takes place on their planet. Wouldn’t be surprised if there are a few more I’m forgetting.
Nice Jason X shirt
Thanks! A large grocery store chain near us was selling it and I couldn’t believe it was real.