UNCUT - The Siege (DS9 S2E3) | Star Trek Journey 283
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DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version A couple of non regular characters scoring but ok. One thing please do not visualize the scores. The sex score board Chief 1 Keiko 1 Quark 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 GUEST: Numbnuts 1 Minister 1 new +1 Wynn 1 new +1 Tobin dax 0 seems like a complete zero bangin DETAILS: We are going to go with the minister and Wynn doin’ the old rockin’ chair. Before you say we are agist I will point out that all at the scoreboard are old and if you having done the rockin’ chair romba, you should try it.
I don't think DS9's political stories are ever really tied to a specific moment in the real world, unless you go all the way back to WW2 as an interpretation of the Cardassians and Bajorans. DS9 is pretty good at focusing its political stories on timeless political issues rather than the topical stories of that particular year. It's things like "what's the right balance of freedom vs. security", "what's the right balance of a willingness to make peace vs. an unwillingness to show weakness", "can the stakes be high enough that the ends really do justify the means". And even when the show takes a clear position on whatever the question is, it's consistently good at showing the other side pretty fairly as having an understandable reason to think that way, rather than just being cartoonishly evil or stupid.
Well said. Modern TV should take note. Stuff that makes you think is good. Telling people what to think makes crappy stories.
They say, "have fewer two parters." DS9 says, "hold my beer." :P But honestly, totally get the sentiment. I predict DS9 will become your favorite Trek. I'll put 5 bars of gold pressed latinum on that.
I have 20 bars...
I always interpreted the end as Li Nalis knew he didn't want to LIVE for his people. He didn't want, or know how to live his whole life pretending to be the role they thought he was. He was much more comfortable dying for his people, because he was a soldier, that's what he understood. And he realized that what Sisko said was true, dying was easier. But also that he'd actually prefer the easy way. In the end, he smiles because he finally got what he wanted. The easy way out of dying for his people instead of living for them.
When we say DS9 does politics, we mean it's OWN politics, like this arc. Not necessarily real world allegory. The closest we've gotten to that was Duet.
This and Duet are where DS9 really came into its own and showed what made it different from TNG. The problem with season 1 was too many episodes were basically early TNG plots that would have worked better on a ship that was exploring the galaxy as opposed to a space station that is by its nature stationary. Season 2 in many ways feels like the real season 1 of the show.
As a Peaker. A twin peaks fan I love Li Nalas!
I really appreciate the acting and makeup here. Oter then the eyes he seems nothing like Ben Horne- the old or younger version. I was going through it and there are a surprisingly high number of actors from twin peaks who have played small parts in trek. Of particular interest, at one point the actress who played Laura was seriously considered for the role of Jadzia. Trying to imagine that is fascinating. Rumpelstilskin was played by the same actor as "The Arm". I could make a big list, but its not of interest to as many people. Even some bit roles like "unnamed security guard at the bankl" show up in trek. "Shelly" was breifly the younger version of the shapeshiting creature protecting the girl wesley fell for. Numerous others, often in alien roles where you couldn't tell
LOL I love your combined reaction to the little spider-dog! Apparently it was a pre-existing remote-controlled toy, not something the prop department made.
I thought they built a spider atop a RC car?
This three parter always felt like a movie; forgot how fun the WHOLE thing was. Probably my favorite episode of season two, but there's still some really good stuff ahead this season. Enjoy boys.
My favorite episode of season 2... damn I can't even hint at it :P This 3 parter is good but my favorite one isn't even in the same category.
I want to try Julian's candy bar. ... wait
G 🤤
Great reactions to this three parter. This is the first time since I started watching that my mind has actually changed on an episode. At this point I almost want TNG to be over so we can get more DS9 reactions.
Especially this season of tng
I consider this trilogy a sort of reset for DS9 where it starts to be the show I love. It will still stumble, but from here on the show has found its voice.
1. The DS9 and TNG intros are within a few seconds of each other in length. 2. I never thought I would hear anyone (Josh) say, "Look at Morn trying to get off".
DS9's opening isn't that much longer than TNG's, but the score has a much slower tempo, which makes it feel much longer.
Re: connections to real events, here’s the beauty of DS9.: it’s very good at telling the stories that have happened again and again in modern history. So rather than riffing on what was happening when it was made it often comments on what is happening *for the current viewer.* It often seems like DS9 has predicted the future, much like classic Simpsons, because it so well captures human foibles. Even in Season 1 we had Kira’s old compatriot saying, “Bajor is for Bajorans,” which immediately made me think of Stephen Miller saying “America is for Americans.” Plenty more parallels to all kinds of world events to come. Simply adore this show.
I never understood O'Brien shit talking Le Nelas at the end. Yes he wasn't the the super hero Kira thought but he fought hard, gave a rousing speech at the air lock, and sacrificed his life to save Sisko. Thats pretty good and not deserving of what O'Brien said. Yeah he had doubts and needed some encouragement, but hell when the chips were down he was there. Of course I realize that O'Brien had to say what he said for Sisko to give his speech ..but even that annoyed me because the subtext of what Sisko suggested was "I'll call him a hero even though yeah he really wasn't". But in my eyes he was
He wasn’t shit talking he was giving a professional observation. Remember O’Brien is a very experienced war vet and to his eyes Lee was a fine man but no great warrior.
Want to know where Dax's dots go? Welcome to the boys club of 1993.
Love the contrast between our side-by-side comments. Star Trek: something for everyone!
You can feel how much the show upped its game in these three episodes
Ah, I knew I was getting invested in DS9 back in the day when the Bajoran forces got to the command center on the lift and my reaction was, "Shove off! This is our bridge, not yours." And I'm cackling at Winn getting an actual "Boo!" from the audience. This is the correct reaction, and Louise Fletcher absolutely earns it. She does such a wonderful job with Winn; I so love to hate her.
Surprised you watch wings!
Thanks to Nick at Nite!
I appreciated the guy's reflection on our antagonist's motivations: Vedek Winn, The Cardassians and Dukat on Leonidas' rescue, Minister Jarro. It isn't completely spelled out, so there's always room on DS9 to see it as you see it. It's so much more engaging when you don't treat the audience as morons and straight up tell them what to think.
"THIS IS BAJOR!!!" *Kicks a Cardassian into a pit* - Li "Leonidas" Nalas
It’s so cathartic seeing you guys like DS9. It’s the same feeling we got in TNG season 3 when you started to see what the show would be in The Bonding.
They’re not in Starfleet uniform because they’re not acting under the authority of Starfleet. Starfleet told them to evacuate, not to do what they’re doing now.
chocking a ferengi, Picard would be envious of Sisco
Picard's bucket list: [X] - Blow up a Ferengi Ship [X] - Out bluff a Ferengi [X] - Punch a Ferengi [ ] - Choke a Ferengi
How slow are those Bajoran ships if it takes them 5 hours to reach the station
Is that admiral ace Rimmer? How long did it take to get back from 3 million years in the future?
"I'm a white board, Morty!"
Ok if they loved this three parter I'm fairly confident now they're gonna love the show
i have no doubt they'll enjoy it. especially when they get eventually get to the meat and bones of the show. now, will they love it more than TNG? that's another thing.
I find the episodes where you see the Federation not in power, not the norm one of the neat things about DS9. We usually see Picard in one of their best ships with top of the line everything. Then we get Sisko, not a captain, no true battle ship, not even true ownership of the space station he oversees. It’s just more “scrappy” which I enjoy seeing.
I've been real excited for this. In some ways s1 and s2 feel like a prequel show, it's not firing on all cylinders yet, but damn if this isn't 6 of the 8 blasting away. Love trek old and new but I doubt this show will ever be topped
I guess when I watched that Move Along Scene, I didn’t think Dax was being honest about leaving Sisko behind. She was trying to provoke him and it didn’t work.
I think it is amazing that the outside shots of the space station are all physical models being shot. So it is not CGI. That said, the wormhole is CGI. So there is CGI in the intro after all. : )
the "keep in mind when this was made" to me mostly has to do with outdated science stuff. You guys call it technobabble but pre voyager, they actually made a god effort to have their science be based on either real things or speculative things. It gets awkward when there is something in an episode like "fermat's theorem has never been solved" when it was a famous unsolved problem when the show was made but was solved recently due to new mathematics and computing abiliites. It is funny that series reflet the fears of their era, and TOS like Twilight Zone clearly has a fear of the automated society run by computers people all their faith in but only are capable of logic. As actual "AI| computing emerges, the "creative" aspect is actually much easier then generalized logic. TNG also represents a reaction that started with Wrath of Khan where using humanitys liberal humanistic values to "fix" alien civilizations is looked at skeptically. The prime directive was originally mainly a plot device but was fleshed out as a "mostly| logical ethical principle althoughtit is taken to absurd extremes sometimes. A lot of people get DS9 wrong I think in paving the way for supposed "darker trek." It's NOT that DS9 said "those utopian values are bs" it's more about the difficulty of havingto fulfill them when you're not in ideal circumstances. Sisko has already shown he is very different from Picard in his willingness to bend the rules for what he thinks is right. We havent really seen it yet, but DS9 also does a better job of exploring how different characters with different persepctives and motivations can be in conflict without one having to have bad intentions. That was limited on TNG by Roddenberry's early dictates which were relaxed but eventually did create a good utopian sort of approach amongst the characters and the sense of coming from a powerful Federation and having the responsibility that comes with that. TOS always featured situations where the ship felt like it was on its own and its commander and crew needed a lot of flexibility to deal with what they were up against. This show has a very different premise. As far as the "smallness" of the world, its ironic because the opposite feels true as the show goes on and DS9 feels more like a center point. Bajor and Cardassia and they're history remain important. Of course I'm really limited in what can say here, but I am confident that particular concern fades. I would make a comparison to Game of Thrones, if someone was worried, "this show is centered on this guy from the north investigating this mystery, that limits the possibilities"
also on science, it's super annoying when they say in "The Game" that serotonin is the neurotransmitter mostly involved in reward and addiction. Even back then, that's just wrong- neuroscience guy here- the whole way of looking at neureotransmitters back then was oversimplified, but clearly they should have said "Dopamine" for that particular description
not just any federation officer, but the emissary, a role sisko has tried to back away from. Inadvertandtly, Nalas has probab;y upped his credientials there even though i dont think anyone told him sisko was declared as that and at this point in the show it doesnt seem like a lot of bajorans buy that or even aware of it. Kai Winn uses the title to sort of mock Sisko
That is an inspired observation
very minor thing., i think the map qs of the troop deploymemnts im and around the capital, not the whole planet
Thinking about the time DS9 was written is important for me for the opposite reason. For example, the fact that Kira was written as a Freedom Fighter before the war on terror. This show was written before a lot of conflicts in the US and abroad but can still resonate after all that. It’s remarkable storytelling (though not perfect). I love DS9 because it told me one story the first time I saw it, and tells me a new story today.
I feel like, while there's never any question about the overall morality of the conflict, it isn't a "noble indian" treatment of the Bajorans and Kira herself has already said basicallys she was both a freedom fighter and a terrorist. There's never any question that she was justified, but they havent shied away from the realities of that and have made it realistically messy and complicated. Duet was the first epsiode where we realy explored the morality from the cardassian side- the thing is, while that narrative and situation hangs heavily over the show, it is by no means limited to that in the way Alex worried about. It keeps that relevant as the show evolves and goes in different directions- and the show is particularly good at keeping multiple plates spinning and have them influence each other in different ways. TNG was much more limited in focusing on its ongoing plot threads only when they wanted to go to those stories; DS9 the circumstances and situation hang heavily over the show, even in one off episodes, so it winds up being the opposite of limiting; it adds depth as all the history and characters develop.
I think they were wearing civilian clothes because they were technically disobeying orders and they didn’t want to make it seem like they were acting on behalf of the Federation. Since you asked, the Bajoran day is 26 hours long. Also this story was planned as a three part from the beginning. Michael Piller pitched it as a big event to get attention after the subpar season one.
yeah, I was surprised they asked that because I feel like I remember we have had this conversation about the 26 hour day before. A lot of trekl sort of zooms in on the aspect they want to focus on about an alien culture, the "planet od the hats" phenomenon, whereas there wou;d be a lot of individual differences even amongst humanoid species whose evolution has been directed by the Preservers and different m class planets. I've thought before it would be intersting to see a ship whose job is the cleanip. Like in "Miri", the ship responsible for finding all the surviving children on the planet, immunizing them and educating them. Really, that would be a massice task requiring multiple ships, but we often from TOS one group or town being the whole planet. At least in a situation with this, we have the opportunities to set up a lot of different things going on on the same planet. The moon evacuation for example which is a "small" story compared to this one.
Josh: “OH MY GOD…DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS??? HE’S FROM WINGS!” Alex *side eye like, ‘what?’*
Same Josh. Same.
Yeah, I think this 3 parter is a solid A throughout. Though I will say in regards to 2/multi part episodes, DS9 has by far the best selection, and as well executed as these eps were, I'd put them on the lower end for DS9. Lots of amazing stuff ahead. I think Li Nalas is a very relatable character. Not so much in terms of being a famous resistance fighter. Obviously most of us can't relate to that, but in terms of not wanting fame and fortune, not wanting to live up to some inflated "hero" image, and really just wanting to find some peace in his life...........and his own people killed him for it. Tragic. I mean to be fair, Day was trying to shoot Sisko. Also I have to laugh at Jaro saying Li would never abandon Bajor when the guy was ready to stow away on a ship headed for the Gamma Quadrant and disappear. Hopefully though the Bajoran people seeing how close they came to being enslaved again will make them realize they really do need the federation there. As for Winn, while I do think there was a degree of self preservation in play when she turned on Jaro, she doesn't want the Cardassians coming back either. Neither does Jaro honestly, and I doubt anyone would accuse him of working with the Cardassians, but he still got played, and everyone is going to see it. What makes this 3 parter stand out most IMO is how it makes good use throughout of every member of the cast. Dax and Bashir got more personality and more to do than we had really seen in S1. Quark helped Odo uncover the Cardassian connection. O'Brien's PTSD from the Cardassian war is informing a lot of his actions through the whole trilogy. Kira obviously went on a whole journey through the 3 parts. And finally, we get to see Sisko going above and beyond to fight for Bajor, somewhere he didn't even want to be a year before, but who is now starting to see it more and more as home. The whole cast still needs a lot more fleshing out, but this was a great developmental boost for all of them. At this point in S2/S7, DS9 is definitely kicking TNG's ass.
Watching this again, when Li Nalas is dying on the floor and Sisko was holding his hand, I immediately pictured Sisko singing "there's a place for us..."
I get it...
The thing you need to keep in mind is that 30 years ago politics hadn't been invented yet.
To future viewers: You have to understand that when Josh and Alex made these comments, it was a different time...
In a sense..
I dig the Quark's Bar shirt
There are a couple of really cool DS9 ones out there, including one on red that is unfortunately a late series spoiler so can't say out loud, but makes for a great shirt and hat graphic.
So much for art imitating life Minister Jarro/Trump. Is it art mimicking life or life mimicking art Jarro or Trump I don’t like either of them
Minister Jaro, have you or have you not been to Bareil Island?
The reason this put TNG to shame is because this wasn't written for kids with some stupid little slice of life problem where a lesson gets learned after a wise pep talk from dad. No children, no learning , none of that garbage. Unfortunately, there is a bunch of TNG style, crappy little episodes in this season yet to come.
I mean, except for Nog, and Jake, and Molly
When I first saw this Wings was on the air too. Thing is I didn't realize that jt was Steven Webber till the end of the show. Good catch for noticing right at the beginning, Josh.
Li Nalas was a cool character, and a cool name, wish he could've been able to return to Bajor
Loved the discussion on this one! One of the things I love most about DS9 are the characters and their interactions with each other. They really do feel like real friends, and it's great that it's apparent to you this early on!
DS9 shows so much more of their personal lives/hanging out in their quarters/having lunch with eachother etc. Something that TNG tended to lack but I felt from DS9 onwards in trek really improved.
Ha ha! Ouch! I guess there are a couple of comments from me you guys didn't read then! I find it interesting that you don't like to take into account historical context when watching stuff that's 30 plus years old. The time it was made informs so much from production technique to writing style to technology of the day to world views. We're just trying to give you young whipper snappers some context! 😁
Context is good if it’s being presented for awareness or interest, but when it is used as an excuse for subpar quality (which is often) that is what we are referring to.
Ah love the discussion about Li Nalas didn’t think about his death that way.
The difference between this and a standard season finale/season opener two parter is that they didn't have part two written when they filmed the season finale episodes. They wrote and shot the first part and then said "okay, how do we wrap this up now?" This three parter was written as a single fleshed out narrative story before they ever shot the first frame of film. This is a great taste of what DS9 becomes as it matures.
I’ve been put off a bit by DS9 but I really did enjoy the complexity of this trilogy. It made sure to show how any side can have different levels of morality. Let’s see where it goes!
I noticed Jack Torrence immediately when I watched this. Okay, so I have a confession to make. I actually LIKED The Shining miniseries. (taking NOTHING away from Kubrick!) But it's because I'm a huge fan of King's books, and I loved the lore of the miniseries and scenes from the novel that were not in Kubrick's version. Also, the acting was great, the kid actor playing Danny was decent enough (who was also in Hellraiser: Bloodline), and Rebecca DeMornay was a FANTASTIC Wendy. The special effects were trash, and the miniseries was not scary, but it's a good adaptation. I would rank all three parts of Homecoming, The Circle, and The Siege together and it's a SOLID A for me.
King hated Kubrick's version and loved the TV adaptation. I never understood that. Kubrick? Nicholson? Hello? I llove the book too but I never cared that the maze at he end of the movie never was in the book and only Kubrick's idea. King went mental because of it.
Jadzia finally getting stuff to do and a personality too? 😱 I like this one overall, Think it resolves stuff just a little too neatly for me but as the first 3 parter I’d call it a success.
Great reaction and discussion. But you guys have to understand, back when this was made....
… you hadn’t read this comment yet.
Ah, risk is out business. Thank you for remembering. This was an amazing 3 parter.
Best Kirk speech
I had the same reaction when Steven Weber walked in but I recognised him from Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip...
Good eye, Josh. You spotted Steven Weber from Wings and The Shining TV movie.
We did it! We found dax's character!
Thank you Tobin!