Prophets?
Comments (44)
Cirroc Lofton was great as Jake. Good casting.
Sorry, random technical question: How are you getting that head tracking effect? Some kind of Adobe Premiere preset or something? (You don't have to answer if you don't want lol)
CapCut
I see Deep Red mentioned Worf a little bit and I was thinking about this yesterday, but didn’t bother posting. Alex & Josh, if you read this, why do you think the religion topic was so upsetting for people with this episode and we never saw any of that hate towards Worf for constantly bringing up Klingon religion? I haven’t heard anyone else mention this. Is it just because Louise Fletcher is so damn good at her role? (Which she is!!). Is it because Klingons look less human, so they get a pass and people think their culture is cool? I see you guys and others fawning over the Klingon culture and religion (yes, religion), but not a fan of others. Why do you think that is?
Probably because Klingons are generally more chill and personal about it. I don’t remember Worf “constantly” bringing it up but whenever he does it’s typically in service of talking about himself not about how others should do anything.
I really appreciate how much more DS9 is exploring spirituality and religion. One issue I always had with Roddenberry's Trek is that there is basically no religion at all. Gene famously said that he believe in the future there would be no religion. He clearly believed that an ideal world was absent of any religion, spirituality or belief in any higher power. Star Trek, to me, has always been about examining humanity. And spirituality and faith based believe systems are absolutely intrinsic to us as a species. You can even see this starting to be explored in TNG with Worf.
I like that in DS9 the Bajorans' "gods" are real. So it's actually fitting in universe, since the beings they perceive as supernatural...actually aren't. This way, we can explore supernatural stuff without it actually being supernatural. It's an ideal workaround. I mean, the Bajorans have certainly made a religion out of it; but objectively to the Trek universe, it's no more real than any other religion from any other world.
You can still respect a culture for their history and customs, and at the same time acknowledge that their opinions are totally at odds with proven(!) facts and modern society. That is not being arrogant, that is being levelheaded and having self respect. In a situation like this, immediately surrendering your own opinion in the name of compromise will eventually lead to a total suppression of knowledge that contradicts dogma. And before you know it the persecution of people who oppose that dogma. Respecting a religious culture?: Yes. Giving a religious culture free reign to impose their beliefs on others?: "Are you serious? How could anyone be so stupid?"
... Except that's not what "are you serious?" was in response to. Sisko was explaining that to the wormhole aliens, there is no linear time. They can see the future and the past. Which of course appeared to be *prophetic* to the Bajorans of thousands of years prior. Sisko was pointing out that it's not actually "dumb" as Jake put it, being a child, that the Bajorans would view people from the sky who can see the future and whose prophecies tend to come true, as prophets. Sisko wasn't defending the suppression of education in favor of dogma. He was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of condemning someone else as stupid for having a different belief.
I don’t think the bajorans worship the prophets as much as seek direction from them. To follow their way, the path they show them. Hence prophets
They worship them. They often use phrases like “thank the prophets”, or “the will of the prophets”. This indicates veneration and some belief that the prophets control their destiny.
Everyone Ignores the fact that Q could also be called a Prophet based on Sisko's terms here. But if you worship him you look like a jackass.
No. Q was encountered in the future, by people who understood that he wasn't a supernatural being, but just a part of the natural world. Just another alien. It's completely wrong to equate that with people in the past developing a religion based on the idea of what they believe to be supernatural beings. You're mixing apples and warp cores here.
give the bajorians credit at least they know their gods are real and even have a mailing address
Nah Ben Sisko is in the right here the edit shouldve been about him
Exactly, the point of the scene is Ben telling Jake their belief is not dumb unfortunately this meme completely misses the point.
I seriously doubt that I will ever say that Jake is one of my favorite Trek characters ever, but damn if I don't love him and Nog's journey. A reminder to myself (b/c we have plenty of DS9 lovers here, hah) that, gd, DS9 did right by all of its characters (I think).
I can tell who made this edit
Yes, you can tell Josh made it because it’s not very good
I have to agree with Sisko. Acting just like the zealots except from the other side.
And we know how Kira feels about being on the other side...
So good
There were no prophets? Sounds like MY business!
It’s basically the same concept behind Judeo-Christian prophecy… revelations from a being that exists outside linear time. Sisko has met beings like that and understands the parallels.
"Profits?" - Quark
I don't remember the rise of that great atheistic society during my anthropology degree. People evolved with a religion slot on their character screen, like it or not. It's like complaining about thumbs. Fill it with God, Government or Ricky 'The Dragon' Steamboat, a person will revere something. You need a critical mass of people believing compatible ideas or stuff goes sideways at the local level. Aside from that, I get it. People are assholes - religious or not. Winn does a good job of annoying the shit out of me too.
Eh, not sure I agree that religion is necessary for society to hold together. Social cohesion, shared ideology, that sort of thing, sure. Building blocks of culture. But religion? As in a moderated and codified belief in the supernatural? Pretty sure it's not necessary. Obviously it happened, but it didn't have to. It's going to continue... Doesn't mean it necessarily*has* to. Enough people just have to value it to keep it alive. There are a heck of a lot of churches in the western world, even giant cathedrals, designed to hold hundreds if not thousands of people... But it's just a couple of dozen old ladies who show up for services. Things do change. Not saying it's for the better or worse. Just saying the world's going to keep going regardless.
Love to finally see the real Cmdr Sisko poke his head out
As with many things on the show, Jake will improve and he'll become an actual character. It'll be interesting to compare him to Wesley, Trek's first kid!
He’s already great!
Commander Dad is very disappointed in you, guys...
We are all disappointed in humans who read too much into a meme edit But it's 2025 and here we are.
The really interesting thing about religion in DS9 is that the Bajorans' "gods" are REAL. Their "Celestial Temple" is a real, extant place. The characters can actually visit what the Bajorans believe to be a Celestial Temple, and can have encounters with the beings regarded as prophets or gods. So, this is a bit more complex than simply saying, oh you have a religion, that's cute. This wormhole, those wormhole aliens... They are all absolutely integral to this story, as established in the pilot. The Bajorans religious angle is very much a real world, objective thing, not just a subjective matter of faith on their part.
Yeah. In the pilot. By corporeal do you mean everybody who doesn't live in wormhole?
He needs to be tolerant of people who believe in the Prophets, and those that believe in profits.
As a father, Sisko is absolutely on point teaching his son the importance of tolerance of other cultures and beliefs. As an atheist, I don't think Sisko could have been any more correct in pointing out that, "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong." This basic belief in tolerance and cultural relativism is extremely Star Trek, and is core to the ideal sort of character one would hope to find in a leadership position in such an enlightened future. Troubling to see it mocked here.
Yeah, it’s a joke brother 💀
Jake is the 2nd smartest person on this station, right behind the chief. That's right, Dax is 3rd to Jake.
Jake is goated!
Jake was actually asking the question in earnest. He wasn't being sarcastic. He was genuinely trying to learn something from his father. He was paying attention. That sort of thing tends to help.
Sisko, empathizing with and trying to understand an opposing view point, by applying rationality to the context and ignoring bias. His son: "ArE yOu SeRiOuS?" 🙃
An example of how when I was a teenager, I knew everything. Now that I’m 39, I know 10,000x more than I did back then, but also now realize I know nothing.
Alex could take more time to digest the Ben Sisko wisdom.
Based Jake is wise beyond his years.