PATRON TIER LIST TNG S5E1
What tier do you rate Star Trek TNG S5E1?
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Comments (95)
It was a good episode. I liked how it involved multiple chess pieces to resolve.
It’s a strong seasoned opener, but it falls short of the mark. All the elements are there, but it doesn’t really resolve the cling on story is it because they don’t know how to resolve it or they want to save something for later cause it feels like a conclusion to a Klingon arc but it’s never really established that it is
Main story is ok, what is good is data and the side stories, the worse is how dirty they did Yar. first she died a pointless death, so now make it worse, send her back in time to be come a prisoner and be violated by a Romulan, have a kid and then executed
Stand by, Captain
Once again so many subplots going on in a Klingon based episode but they all work. I especially enjoyed the Data story arc.
The Kurn maneuver, Klingon culture, data stands up for himself and commands like a boss, and Yesterday's Enterprise gifted us with a bouncing baby badass. What's not to love? S all the way.
Maxwell suspected the Cardassians were breaking the treaty and arming for war, so he crossed the border and started blasting. Picard suspected the Romulans were meddling in Klingon politics, so he raised a fleet and told the Romulans they'd find out if they dared to fuck around... ...but unlike Maxwell, Picard thought to get permission first.
B for me. There’s some great scenes but Worf disappears half way through the episode and plays no role in resolving the Klingon Civil War. Also they never really explained why the Romulans don’t just fly around.
This is a S-tier episode for me because of Data. He asks Captain Picard why he wasn't given a ship and gets it. He denies the First Officer's request for transfer because the reason is trivial. When the First Officer questions his orders, he doesn't get mad as some of you think. He precisely calculates what is needed to get his First officer to follow his orders. Data then raises the volume of his voice says "Do It" and the First Officer complies.
This is an example of part 2 of a story not holding up to Part 1. It’s a good episode, a B, and it has great Data stuff, but it isn’t as good as the one before.
The Data aspect as always been my fave part of this story, especially his display of annoyance
Display is definitely the right word.
I personally don't care for Sela as a character. To some degree, I feel it of ruins a bit of Yar's sacrifice at the end of Yesterday's Enterprise. Still, good to see Denise Crosby again at least.
Was that Data being annoyed?? For an emotionless android, that moment never quite sat right with me.
It was more a puzzlement, perhaps perceiving a lack of justice. I don’t know that he was bothered in the way we would be.
Beatles hair tasha is a testy one. I like the Tie back to yesterdays Enterprise. this one ends the way josh thought the last one with Worf should have .. spares the life and lets him go.. lets see how that works out for him later...
The resemblance may be explained by her daughter being an ivf clone because normal pregnancy kept failing
It never really makes sense how you can "lay a net" with some ships in the vastness of space. Also the taceon thing is a new discovery? So up until now the Romulans could have just sent a fleet in under clock to Eart or anywhere.... Oh well. As my dad used to say fo me "it's just a TV show"...
If the romulans tried to go around it would take too long.
I've always been a bit bothered by how far the Sutherland got at warp 9.3, away from the Romulan ships it was soon trying to scan.
There is no way that Kurn or anyone else's ships could get that close to a star. And it's very unlikely that a ship would be able to form a warp field that close to a star anyways. We'll come back to this.
Klingons aren't known for following manuals, or health & safety warnings...
Data is officially THE Ice Man…. DO IT!!!!
And just when you thought “Yesterday’s Enterprise” never really happened…
Guinan (“Yesterday’s Enterprise” to Picard) That ship from the past is not supposed to be here, you have to send it back.” Guinan (“Redemption Part 2” to Picard): “This is your fault, you sent the Enterprise-C back to the past.” (paraphrasing)
It's not that the ship went back that is the problem, or Picard's fault. It's that the ship went back WITH TASHA YAR on it that is the problem/paradox.
Something that makes Sela interesting is that she's the exact opposite of Tasha Yar. Tasha ran from her home world because she knew it wasn't safe and that it would corrupt her. She finds her strength and her moral compass through her found family in Starfleet. Sela is so indoctrinated into the worst of Romulan culture that her unwavering attachment to it as a child directly leads to Tasha's death. From that point on, her cost is completely and horrifically sunk into the Romulan cause. She would kill anyone for it, even her own mother. And that makes her maybe one of the most dangerous villains the Enterprise D will ever face.
Excellent points!
if Worf of thrones wasn’t enough, Kurn is a bad ass captain ! And so is captain Data! On a Nebula class no less! They have been mixing Romulans and Klingons since heart of glory and it’s finaly payed off! S+!
Kurn's maneuver at the beginning of this episode, and the scene in the Klingon capital with both sides just hanging out as fellow warriors are the most badass Klingon moments ever. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we all may die."
Tasha is the Uncle Ben of Star Trek. She just can’t catch a break. It’s great that we did get a semi-sequel to Yesterday’s Enterprise.
I always thought THIS episode should have been titled "The Best of Both Worlds" for Worf's inner conflict.
Or "The Worst of Both Worlds"
It might be easy to pick on Hobson as another Maddox type who is prejudiced against androids, but I think any of us would have reservations about putting an AI in control of a battleship during a war, especially if we are asked to serve under it. Hobson should have respected the chain of command, but we are told at the end that blindly following orders is not always the best course of action.
This is a quality episode. I love the fleets of ships positioning around each other, the moves and countermoves, and most of the political stuff. About the only thing that misses the mark for me is actually the Tasha stuff. The fact that they brought her back using the results from a past episode is kind of neat... But poor Tasha. Becomes a hero only to be captured and enslaved and eventually executed. And even all that aside, her daughter really doesn't add much to it all. I feel like any Romulan baddie could have replaced her and the rest of the episode would have still been the same really.
Just gotta say it: Crosby was looking kinda old for a 22 year old Romulan half-breed.
The Federation blockade hits different when you realize it's thinking in 2D, and the Romulans only needed to go up or down the Z axis far enough to go around. LOL
Why do you assume the ships were in a 2d formation?
I have mixed feelings about this one. While I love the Klingon Civil War saga, I feel like the show strays away too much from Worf’s story. Picard’s plan to block the fleet works well with the story, but the Captain Data subplot has always felt shoehorned into this episode. It is a great story in and of itself, but it doesn’t need to be told in THIS episode. It takes away from Worf’s story. The revelation that Sela is the daughter of the alternate timeline Tasha Yar was something I guessed over the summer, (although she looked pretty old for only being 22-23, and I didn’t buy that a human/Romulan hybrid would be trusted with the rank of commander). The scenes resolving this are some of the best of the episode. Hats off to director David Carson who directed another banger. The opening scene felt very cinematic
I love how much Worf differentiates himself from other Klingons in the scene where he spares the son of Duras. He's the ideal version of what a Klingon SHOULD be. Also want to give a shout out to the Data subplot which I think is fantastic.
I ranked it a B, for a number of reasons, while others went A or S. Still a decent grade, but I am being VERY generous just to give it a B. It really should be a C. While I liked Tasha Yar, Denise Crosby has not improved as an actress, while the rest of the cast did on their time on TNG. I think she's kindof awful in Redemption. She's hard to take seriously. Her reveal was well set up and mind-blowing, and everything after that... meeeeeeeeeeeh. Her character should have been cut. She added nothing to the story other than the shock value of the reveal. Her backstory did nothing to actually affect the plot, it should have been put into its own standalone episode. The only reason why it was here was to try to recapture the mind-blowing ending of the Best of Both Worlds Part 1. The blockade plot is pretty stupid as well. This isn't an ocean, where you can form a line of ships to "blockade." Space has three dimensions, and as Douglass Adams told us, it's really really big. These tachyon nets did not cover that much space, and there was a very large border to proect. Spend 2 minutes at warp speed (almost any warp speed), and you will completely bypass the section of space that was blockaded. Sela is supposed to be smart, why did she not just... GO AROUND THE BLOCKADE? I wish the Data section and the Klingon Civil War sections were given a LOT more time.
I don't agree with anything you wrote, except for the blockade. I understand it as a plot device (plot armor!), and it's okay in that regard, but it's not very practical or plausible in real life, as you state.
A fitting end for Worf's "honor" arc. In Part 1 Guinan says he's learning how to really be a Klingon. In Part 2, he sees what being a real Klingon is, and decides to go home to the Enterprise. He has his OWN way to be a Klingon.
A fitting resolution to Worf's discommendation arc, and the reveal that this is really a sequel to “Yesterday's Enterprise”. Will we see Sela again? Do you want to? And it was actually Denise who came up with the concept of how she could come back again. She pitched it, and they went with it. And Hobson is added to the list of people who learn to never mess with Data. My first “Best of the Best” ranking of the season, needless to say.
I find the Sela story too soap opera-like for me, but the Klingon stuff is good and the Data stuff still rings out now. When I think of this episode, it's angry Data I think of. Grade: A.
MISTER HOBSON!! 😠
So much makes this an A-Tier for me, starting with Kern's awesome maneuver at the beginning of the episode and including Data taking Hobson down a peg. But what really stood out to me was when Picard was assigning command crew to ships and Data called him out on not thinking of him for a position and Picard's look of "He's right. I messed up." After everything Picard has done for Data, it hurt me that he didn't think of Data for a post, and you could see that it hurt Picard, too, to not even offer. Data could have turned it down to remain on the Enterprise, but to not even be offered the choice was not good, and Picard knew it in that instant. Great acting on everyone's part to put so much emotion in such a small scene. Though Worf having no reaction to seeing Sela did disappoint me.
Welcome to probably the Strongest Season of TNG, have fun!
i dunno about that, though the best episode of TNG is in this season...
An emotionless android convincingly dressing down a biligernt subordinate. Data dont take no shit.
Should have just relieved him of duty then and there.
got love this episode for the data B-plot that could have been it own episode, how he deals with racist officer, and saves the day is great, loved how he simulated the emotions of angry boss do as i say in just: DO IT and FIRE
Racial prejudice—not racism—but yeah.
This may be the better half of Redemption. But unlike BoBW, I don't think it'd flow as a single episode. And I assume that blockade is covering a VAST area to work that the display screens are showing out of scale, otherwise why not just go around?
Question for the guys (if you haven't answered it already): Is Data really angry at Hobson, or is he basically imitating anger to act in the proper way a captain should. He no doubt has learned that when in command of people, you need to be forceful and put them in their place if they step out of line.
Subtle Continuity: O'Brien was Captain Maxwell's Tactical Officer, now with the Senior Officers elsewhere he's Picard's.
Question for you both: do you believe that Worf would have killed the Duras kid, Toral, if Picard was not there watching?
They're going to love seeing O'Brien back on the bridge!
Big continuity error in this. In an earlier episode Q talked about the Klingon tradition of not drinking with one's enemy. Well, in this one, that's on its ear!
Except everyone involved here has clearly shown that they don't follow Klingon ways. Whether it's Picard, Worf, or the Duras sisters.
I don't even know if this whole two-parter is perfect or S-tier, but Data's captain sub plot is a highlight of the series for me.
Captain Data for the win!
The weakest part of the episode for me was the Tasha/Sela explanation. I'm not really a fan of it. Yesterday's Enterprise gave Tasha a meaningful death only for this episode to undo it in order to give us a new villain. It is interesting having the enterprise have to work against Tasha's tactical knowledge now; and it seems like Picard, learned from Legacy to not be manipulated by people with connections to Tasha. But the episode doesn't really do much with either of these ideas. it just feels like Denise Crosby wanted to come back, so they made something up for it.
I thought it was pretty clever, and ballsy.
It has its interesting moments, but it suffers from a shift of focus away from the Klingon stuff to Starfleet stuff, and it also suffers from only having one episode to resolve the problems that were introduced by the previous episode. Second parts of a two-parter are rarely going to be the equal to or greater than the previous part.
"The Klingon stuff" was the restoration of Worf's family honor. That happened in Part 1. The battle for power continues. The fight looks much simpler than Gowron made it out to be in the transporter room when Worf confronted him, though.
Take a bow, Josh, for correctly guessing Sela's origin.
Wasn't it Alex who said she may be Tasha's daughter?
Love the redesigned Nebula-class ship that Data commands in this episode. Looks much cooler with a triangular top piece compared to the oval shape we saw when the model was first introduced in “The Wounded.”
It is a great idea, the kind of flow on of design from the Miranda-class like the Reliant, in that the Pod is mission configurable, and this is the Tactical Pod for Nebula Class.
Love this episode, Data in command of the USS Sutherland is such a great placement. The patronizing Lt Cmdr Hobson being put in his place both with the rebuke and the obvious success of Data's strategy is very satisfying. Also, our guy Worf finally gets his his just reward. This episode is aces for me.
As Guinan pointed out in part 1, Worf's ways are not actually Klingon. Worf couldn't see this in the Family episode with his parents, which is why Guinan had to speak for him then. But now, after living with Klingons, Worf finally sees that a lot of who he is is actually human. In every scene, Worf sides against Klingon ways: he didn't understand why the two factions still partied together in the Klingon Capital; he thought the whole system from Matter of Honor, where you challenge a Klingon leader to the death, was senseless; and most of all, he refused to hold Duras's son responsible for the sins of his father. Worf is growing.
Reprisal of "The Mind's Eye" Data with his ruthless 'That was an order' demeanor.
MISTER HOBSON!
Absolutely love the stuff with Data proving himself as captain! It's probably my favorite Data moment in the whole show. Ice in the veins to the next level. Just like in The Mind's Eye, Data shows that he is more than capable of making tough decisions, as well as solving problems that no one else can see. So satisfying when that smug officer finally acknowledges his place.
I don't care for the "let's be prejudiced toward Data" scenario on multiple watches... maybe I'm just too annoyed by that officer. Otherwise, A tier all the way.
But it's pretty realistic. None of those people have served with him before, they don't know him.
This episode benefits not just because it's the season premiere and conclusion of a two-parter, but from the established lore we have come to expect (or maybe never expected) from being fans who have been with the show since the beginning. One of those rare episodes in which the cavalcade of extras, normally in the background, heighten the mythology.
While the highlights are definitely Worfs arc and Denise Crosby returning while getting to flex her acting chops under a new character, my favorite aspect is Data’s struggle to earn trust as a leader. For all of Starfleets aspirations of making more android officers, this episode addresses that the rest of the organic members need to be convinced, even if the top brass order it.
What should have been a worf episode conclusion to redemption part 1 as an A plot becomes a data as captain A plot and worf relegated to the B plot but still some good character stuff for both of them and a good start to season 5
Oddly, this isn't as much of a Worf story as Part 1 would lead you to believe - its more of a Picard vs Sela story, with Datas first command proving he's a badass in the chair. The positronic smackdown of Hobson as the obvious op is a big highlight. Where would you guys want this story to go next - for Worf, Sela, and Data..?
Wow, Data really put that "yelling at a bitch" subroutine to work!
He is back to imitating emotions he claims to not understand.
Better Part 2 than Best off Both Worlds part 2. Nice resolution of the Worf Klingon saga. Chief O’Brien gets a little more to do. Data gets to show what kind of Captain he would make. And always nice seeing Denise Crosby. Solid A for me.
After everything they did to Worf, he has every right to spit in the face of the klingon way. He's been unjustly put on the receiving end of of the "sins of the father" BS, and he won't help perpetuate that cycle. The klingon way saw Worf scapegoated to cover a traitor's crimes, and almost led to the destruction of the Empire. Unlike the high council, Worf actually is honorable, he knows his way is better, and he's done pretending otherwise.
First Data screws Tasha and then he screws over her daughter. In all seriousness, I absolutely love Spiner's performance as Data in command of his own ship.
I love Data as a ship captain. The Data of seasons 1-3 would not have been up for the challenge, but he has learned a lot from watching Picard and Riker
Data shines as a Captain in a stressful encounter with the Romulans with Worf regaining his family name and honor in the eyes of his fellow Klingons, great episode with some fantastic moments but it doesn't quite make S-tier for me and an excellent start to a fantastic season
One of my favorite Data arcs - seeing how other Starfleet officers think he's just a machine and then realize he's more than the sum of his parts
So the first time I hear my name in Trek, it's a slimy Ferengi, but then the next time I hear it, it apparently means "shut the F up" in Klingon. I just can't win.
I thought it was "Now / Ahead / Thrust"...
I hope part II Redeems redemption for you! I gave it an A.
I think this is a stronger Part 2 than Best of Both Worlds. Even though that one is more dramatic and exciting as a whole of both parts.
B for me. I just can't get into the Klingon storylines
Worf got his family honor back and Data would make a good captain, under the right conditions