UNCUT REACTION & DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E22 - The Most Toys
We had a lot to say when the episode ended, and rather than lose our train of thought by stopping we had the whole discussion right after. Will probably still be 2 YouTube videos, but no reason to break them up here.
Comments (157)
I like this one a bit more than you guys. I think it's strong in the characterisation of Data and I think the ending is well judged. The fake crying over Data's death is less strong.
The Final Draft script of this episode, available on the Star Trek Minutiae website, ends after the scene with Data and Fajo in the Enterprise brig with the words, "75 thru 80 OMITTED FADE OUT. END OF ACT FIVE THE END". In other words, six more shots that appeared in an earlier version of the script were omitted from the Final Draft. It wouldn't surprise me if these constituted a tag scene on the bridge like the one Alex described, and someone decided that the scene in the brig was a stronger finish.
The RedLetterMedia guys actually have that uniform from this episode. After it was dissolving the outfit and had the patch on the chest. They bought it from some prop house a while back and have used it in a couple of their videos.
Well, I pretty much am on the same page you guys on everything. Except Saul Rubinek. I always forget the episode exists except for his performance. My favorite kind of Star Trek actor, campy and flamboyant, but able to still handle subtle scenes.
this episode hits hard for me
How so?
The "Courtney Brown" of Star Trek the Next Generation
here's a video comparing the two actors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcN4upJ3FQ4
The original actor to play Fajo attempted suicide after the first three or four days of filming. Saul Rubinek is a close friend of Brent Spiner and came in to do it at the last minute as a favor, with only a day to prepare. As an actor, that’s genius work to me. You can see the original work of the other actor. It’s an interesting contrast between the two. They used a dwarf to play Fajo the first time and he was interestingly pretty menacing under much more make up. You can find those original shots pretty easily on YouTube. That’s the other reason why they couldn’t do a lot of make up for Rubinek – they literally had a weekend.
The small person was David Rappaport a British comedy actor that had been in a lot of stuff. Not a dwarf, he had some other developmental syndrome. I thought his performance was pretty poor in the clips I saw, but that's to be expected from someone contemplating suicide I guess. I think Rubinek was lucky they had no time, less is definitely more in this instance. Rappaport's version of Fajo is so non-human looking that his cruelty doesn't really hit hard enough. Rubinek looks like a normal guy and is occasionally charming, making his cruelty harder to swallow.
Saul Rubinek always seems like a one dimensional actor to me. He is fine I suppose but is always the same personality no matter what the setting is. Old trekkie here, watched everything multiple times now and this has always been a meh episode. Your opinions are always valid no matter what, keep up the great work and we’ll keep watching too. It is just amazing that these stories remain entertaining and have something to say to later generations after all these years!
There are many actors I feel that way about, #1 on my list is Nicolas Cage. He only knows how to play one thing, and if he's in that kind of role, he's fine; if he's not in that kind of role, he's not fine. Whatever you may think of Mr. Rubinek's acting in general, here he was in that role he's good at.
Gotta say I'm not feelin' you guys' vibe on this one. I think perhaps there was a little too much focus on the out-of-story production content. You missed a very good episode, Data growing beyond his programming darkly and even lying to Riker.
Data "did" his "first murder" which turned out not to happen. He didn't *have* to shoot Fajo, he chose to. It's profound for the character.
Right when Data tells Riker "something must have happened in transport" and you can see on Rikers face the realization "Data just lied to me"
I think we have to come to terms with the fact that our guys have very high expectations of the quality of the episodes. Solid or good episodes with outstanding moments for the development of the characters like the q episode or this data episode are simply not enough. We have to respect that. I have no problem with them not liking episodes that much. But it's sad because you can already guess that they're only going to enjoy 25% of what's to come (TNG). I appreciate that they always give their honest opinion. But the most important thing is that our guys enjoy their Star Trek journey. And I'm not sure if that will go well over 7 seasons.... Maybe it would be an idea if they only watched the top 7 episodes of the remaining seasons of TNG. And the movies. They will have much more fun with the continuous plot of DS9 and voyager.
We are watching everything. Thank you for appreciating our honesty.
This one is in my top ten all time TNG episodes, mostly because of the genius performance from Saul Rubinek.
Who was asked on a Saturday or Sunday and showed up for work Monday morning.
I'm more surprised by the reaction to the reaction. I didn't realize so many people would feel the need to defend this episode so vehemently. For me, this was always a good, not great, episode. The script isn't there, although I like the performances with what they were given. To me, I never reached the point of caring enough to try to "fix" the episode or hate it. It's just a solid episode B tier. Let's move on to better episodes to come.
You have a higher opinion of this episode than I do. It is one I will skip.
Most of this episode had to be reshot because the original actor who played Kivas Fajo (David Rappaport) killed himself after a couple of days filming. Very sad but it worked out well for Star Trek as his character was frankly ridiculous with terrible prosthetics and make-up, the replacement was better in every respect.
🙄
Irritating episode. When Saul Rubinek would show up as a guest star on a series, it was time to flip to another channel. Some folks like him. He just always seemed the same in all roles across shows/across genres. First time posting here. Keep up the good work. Don’t alter your trajectory too much. You’re doing great.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't overly impressed with Saul Rubinek's performance. He's a fine actor, but something didn't quite click for me here with his character. Data firing on him made perfect sense, and I thought the ending fit. Don't let some of these comments get you down, you're allowed your own opinions and it's a treat to see these episodes from different eyes than our own 👍
Honestly the main thing that frustrates me about these Star Trek reactions is that Alex and Josh never seem to disagree with each other, ever. If Alex starts off with his thoughts and he's lukewarm on an episode I know for a fact that Josh not only feels the same way, but for the same reasons. It's like they're two criminal suspects getting their stories straight before an interrogation. It makes the episode critiques less interesting for me, because there's hardly ever any real debate between them at all. Before your time, but--have you guys ever seen Siskel and Ebert? They disagreed about movies, often, and their debates were what made the show great.
But they disagree about stuff all the time?
First time I vocally disagree with you about something. The Data firing the disruptor thing. I thought it was perfect. This is the growth we have witnessed with Data. He had no idea he was going to be rescued soon if at all. Data isn’t forbidden from taking a life if necessary. Generally, it would be self-defense, but these are special circumstances and data realizes this. “I cannot allow this to continue.” He is saying to himself as much as he is to Fajo. And Data’s obtuse response about the weapon discharged in transit showed a level of autonomy as did Riker. The look Riker threw O’Brian made it obvious he knew Data was full of shit and he let it slide.
That’s fair. For the record our problem was the execution of it, not Data shooting Fajo, but I’m glad it worked for you.
Completely disagree that the guest actor wasn't good. Saul Rubinek did a fantastic job, his character is super memorable among most fans of this show. I wonder if part of the reason you guys don't like some of these episodes is because you're too young to remember a time when television shows worked with much lower budgets than they do these days.
I'm in about the same boat as you guys. I don't have the level of reverence for this episode a lot of people seem to. It's good, but there's probably 9 or 10 this season I like better. Probably the main difference is I liked Saul Rubinek's performance more than you guys. As I said in my patron take, my favourite performance of his was from the episode Heroes in SG1 S7. His character there is rather unlikeable there as well, but by the end you have a lot of respect for him. BTW, when you speculated that when Data was doing the silent treatment that he might have ended up beating up Toff, the other collector guy, he couldn't because you see him wearing one of the belts as well when he walks in. I've always wondered if the shield provided general physical protection as well. Obviously it wouldn't stop the disruptor or Fajo wouldn't have been worried. However Fajo, Toff and Varria were all wearing the belts and had their arms over each other's shoulders and he touches objects in his collection, so they seem designed to repel Data specifically. Makes me wonder if Data couldn't have picked up the chair and clobbered Fajo into submission for it. For that matter, Data could probably throw any small dense object with enough precision and force to disable the shield emitter. As for the "did he shoot" scene, he absolutely did. The above speculation aside, Data was backed into a corner. Fajo had murdered Varria and threatened another member of his crew. Data couldn't physically restrain him with that shield up, and wouldn't get another chance to escape, he had no idea the Enterprise was on the way, and moreover he gave Fajo a chance to surrender. Aside from using an illegal weapon to do it, being the only one available, it's arguably a justified shooting of a dangerous criminal that was resisting arrest. I don't think he lied to Riker, he said something must have occurred during transport, that something being he pulled the trigger. Riker didn't ask a direct question, and Data didn't give a direct answer, and they both knew to let it go. I thought the stuff on the Enterprise was handled fairly well, especially Worf and Geordi's roles this episode, and Picard's voice breaking just a bit reading the line from Shakespeare was a nice touch. Geordi's refusal to accept Data could have made a mistake just reinforces how close they are. I do think if they had not included Data being disabled and kidnapped and let us think he was actually dead until the mourning scenes were done it all would have worked much better. Just cut one scene that was explained in dialogue later anyway, and do a little editing, and it's much better. Still, it's a memorable entry with a pretty detestable villain.
I support the show's choice to show us Data resisting his good friend's deliciously-terrible character versus making us think he was dead the whole time.
I always thought this one was "fine." It was a Star Trek. That I watched.
This is one of those episodes that’s not bad but nothing great. It’s what writers used to call an April episode. An episode you are making to fill a week while you focus on better quality stuff to end the season. You get some ok eps when you have to do 26 episodes a season and with Star Trek they have to be working on usually 4 scripts at a time to give the effects, props and makeup teams time to get everything ready, so some episodes don’t get much attention or love from the staff.
The comment about Data taking him in to the law was off the mark. As far as he knew at that point, the Enterprise thought he was dead and was never going to come for him, and he just lost his only way out. He was stuck there. He was the only one who could stop this guy.
All I'll say on Saul Rubinek was that he made Kivas Fajo a LOT more fun to watch than Dr. Stubbs.
Why do they keep kidnapping the crew? 🤣
You're Gonna get a shitstorm in the comments so I just wanna let you know you've given good commentary & analysis discussing the flaws of this episode. Personally this is a favorite of mine, but I to recognize those flaws you've brought up. Also "Scary emotionless Data" when you finish the show some years from now look up Data Serial killer TNG meme, someone took clips throughout the show to make Data look like a psychopathic killer murdering random crew members off screen with Picard & crew oblivious & it's Fucking Hilarious
For me this episode was like a meal with a few different sides and a main course. The main course is decent, not great or bad, but the sides (the ending with Data probably firing on Fajo) was truly excellent. Perhaps the dessert bit elevated this from what would have been an B episode more towards B+. The only thing I disagree with you guys on is Fajo's actor, Saul Rubinek. I think he played the role really well, it's just that I hated the character he played. But then, that was the point.
These guys on the season three finale: "We enjoyed the episode, it was solid enough...it could have been excellent, but..."
I mean no matter what we end up thinking of it, the content is going to be *chef’s kiss*
Love watching you guys but you have yet to propose a better ending to any of the episodes this season, and this one is no different. Are you making these suggestions because you genuinely think the endings are broken? Or are you just trying to one-up the writers/directors?
We are just saying what we would have liked to see, I’m not sure what you’re questioning
Always best to look inside, see if something needs changed there first... The old "log in your own eye" parable. I can't expect a standing ovation for my favorite episodes. Plus, as someone else pointed out, opinions change on multiple viewings or with age. For instance, as a kid I really didn't like The Icarus Factor... As an adult, constantly reflecting on my relationship with my father, who is now gone, that episode has alot to say.
“Perhaps something occurred during transport Commander” Awesome line. Gives me chills. We know its meant to leave you wondering, but in our hearts we all know that he DID fire.
Exactly! Data does have "secrets," too.
Yeah, gonna hard disagree here. That's fine, we can have different opinions. I thought Saul Rubinek was an incredible guest actor -- maybe one of the best of the series. I think you sometimes have a bit too little patience for the situation where the crew is behind what the audience knows. That CAN be boring, but I think it flowed organically here. That shouldn't be an audience mood killer, and often it doesn't hurt, but that always seems to rub you the wrong way. Just gonna disagree with that. Marvelous episode.
Love the unplanned bit at the end!
So, when you said "it's been 3 weeks already" I think you missed a little bit. It hadn't been 3 weeks at all. So, the 3 weeks was for them to go get more of that substance they needed. They had just enough to do the job, but with no margin or error, hence why how far away/how long it would take to get more become relevant. They, however, went directly to the colony that needed it, the time to which, as far as I know, was never stated, but implied to be much less. Riker alerted another federation ship in the vicinity of the place where more of the substance could be sourced so if they did need more said ship could bring it to them, making 1 3 week trip, rather than 3 weeks there and 3 weeks back. I love your guys reactions, it makes me see things differently. I'd always assumed the thing about the disruptor being in a discharged state was because the bad guy shot the woman first, I just assumed it was that disruptor data had grabbed. But I think the point of the scene, and the way you guys took it, was that data had fired it right as the transport happened.
Yes, Data pulled the trigger. O'Brien says “It seems to have discharged, sir.”
Maybe they would have liked the David Rappenport version better (personally from the clips I've seen...I think Saul did better).
Another voice adding to the praise of Saul Rubinek. This was always an episode I enjoyed for general uniqueness. Cool premise and of course a Data episode typically makes a winner. Never top tier but enjoyable. This watch through I noticed something totally new. Saul Rubinek works up and drops a real tear when he remembers his sad upbringing, right before INSTANTLY revealing he's lying. He does this so casually I've never noticed it before. He's a master class actor and always stands out. I predict over time this episode will reveal itself to you as better than you initially thought.
Noticed the crocodile tear for the first time on this viewing as well.
something i noticed for the first time ever when watching along: when kivas fajo is giving his fake background story how he grew up poor there was actual tears going down his face. wow what a faker, so evil he almost believes his own lie! that moment puts the actor's performance even higher for me
Yeah...I have seen this episode several times but this is the first time I saw it.
You guys saying that Saul Rubinek wasn't good in this is 100% the worst take you two have ever had. By far... Really a terrible terrible take. But still I enjoyed your reaction. Even when I'm hate enjoying it. Lol
I bet they like the next episode's guest actor!
Lol
Really surprised by the criticisms of this episode. In particular, the actor who plays the villain was, in my opinion, fantastic. I believe that most people who watch this episode feel similarly.
Their sometimes misguided criticism of excellent episodes no longer surprises me. However I do remain entertained by their analyses. 😁
Fajo's description of Data's life as a series of intellectual curiosities is a profound and accurate one.
It seems like when a guest star comes in an plays a despicable character and does it really well , like Stubbs, instead of giving them props, they diss them.
Yeah this is their worse take ever....lol
Troi and worf have absolutely no chemistry together what writer would do that
Josh or Alex want a glimpse at Troi's bloody corpse. LOL!
The boys do seem extra nit picky of late
I think they are forgetting they are watching a 90s television show. Writers in the 90s didn’t trust their audiences like they do today.
I thought this a great episode with a great performance from rubinek, and a great character building episode as Data wrestles with wanting to be human, confronts humanity’s darker impulses
Yea yea, you guys are better directors and writers, ehem
It’s an okay episode. It’s not one that I typically rewatch but has merits on its own. There are parts that make it a bit long. Can’t disagree with the suggestions that would make it better.
Like you, I felt that this episode really fell flat in the writing. All the ingredients were there, but the pacing of the scenes was oddly slow, and many of the lines were dumbed-down explanations of what was obviously going on. Despite the interesting glimpses into the progression of Data's character, it's one of the more forgettable episodes for me.
The only thing I don't like is how long it took Data to come out of the escape shuttle the second time. He didn't come out until Varria was screaming in agony.
The Squire of Gothos is the name of the TOS episode featuring Trelane
I think Data pulling the trigger, an attempt to kill Fajo, makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong but he had no evidence that rescue was going to happen. Even if he did expect to be rescued, what if Fajo hurt or killed someone else in the time it takes? I think Data calculated it as a defensive act that would prevent more murder by Fajo
Actually have no problem with Data killing him. It’s “logical” given Data’s circumstance and one could argue since Data is a machine the morality of killing wouldn’t apply the same as it would to a human. Or at the very least it’s a great conversation. Unfortunately, the show imo botches the whole sequence so that conversation doesn’t matter
in this video what you guys explain is that episodes now fall into one of three columns: A: elite tier like Yesterday's Enterprise. B: "Just" good, which is now bad and you'd prefer garbage over or C: Garbage. Hasn't Star Trek Earned a bit more than that by this point fellas? Turning your noses up at two thirds of the journey would get rough, no?
Last episode was “just” good, and that was fine. It depends on the episode. I think the framing of our discussion here as “turning our nose up” is wildly inaccurate. Truly surprised anyone would disagree that a good episode with the potential to be excellent but falling short is more disappointing than an episode that’s not good.
Strong episode and in my opinion you guys are way off with most of your nitpicks on this one. Geordi sleeping in his clothes... well, he didn't want to rest, he wanted to keep investigating the shuttle explosion. He was ordered to rest. So it stands to reason that he decided to take a nap for an hour or two and get back to work. Hasn't literally everyone taken a quick nap without fully disrobing or changing into full on pajamas?? Sorry, but I think this is an example of you guys simply not being in the mood to give the episode the "buy-in" that it deserves
If our main criticism of the episode was Geordi sleeping in his uniform then I’d agree, but it was a minor comment, which for whatever reason is what everyone always focuses on instead of our real criticisms of the episode. For a prior example - “Q would know what eating is, just not the experience of eating” was not our actual criticism of Deja Q, but it’s the one thing people focused on for some reason.
Don't know the Trek lore of ships name Grissom, but I'm sure they are an homage to Gus Grissom, Mercury and Apollo astronaut who died (with two others) on the pad for Apollo 1.
This episode is not in my top 10 or anything, but I'm still surprised you guys didn't like it a bit more, though I understand your reasons. I think Saul Rubinek as Fajo was quite good, but I tend to like him as a TV actor in general, so perhaps there is some bias there. And, despite the flawed execution, I really like the idea of the moral and upstanding Data being confronted by someone who has no morals or respect for life at all. I also appreciate that Geordie cannot accept that Data would ever not follow protocol or make a mistake, which is a good counterpoint to the ending. In my view, if the firing of the disruptor were more ambiguous, it would be too easy to dismiss as something Data would never do. I think it's far more fascinating that Data probably did fire (though it's still not made 100% definitive) and he is the only one who will ever know that. It shows how human he can be when circumstances allow and that he has the capacity for character growth beyond his programming. When Data evades Riker's question, I always saw that less as him lying to Riker and more about him trying to come to terms with what he had just done. In my mind, Data himself was just as shocked/appalled as we were that he had actually pulled the trigger, so to speak. Also, it's a very small thing, but I really like how Fajo constantly refers to Data as "just" an android which sounds very limiting or derogatory. And then at the end, Data responds back that he is "only" an android which is a subtle difference but more of a positive spin, I'd say.
Good points
1:07:02 ROTFL!!! Counselor Worf!
This episode is one of the few episodes of Trek where we knew right before or very shortly after (the actor died what something like 5 days before the episode aired?), that the production of the episode had been dramatically impacted by things outside of the control off the producers. And it was fairly rare at this time, do get any real information about behind the scenes events in any such timely manner. Because of that I tend to be a little more gentile about my criticism. For example it was known before it aired that the Season 2's opener was a rushed reuse of a unused Phase 2 script, due to the rush to get something, anything ready to shoot after the long strike. Thanks to convention, it was known to be who followed behind the scenes stuff in Trek that Shades of Grey was a clip show. As some of the actors mentioned it once the ended filming (which was months before it eventually aired. But for the most part at this time we didn't get real behind the scenes info until summer convention schedules that included actors, writers, and production personal. So often months sometimes years afterwards.
They had to film the whole thing twice, was part of the problem, after Fajo's original actor committed suicide.
He did not commit suicide during the filming of this episode.
50:31 Horse hockey.
You were right about the cave being the same as the one from Captain's Holiday. That cave set with the steps gets reused a few times.
It was also seen in Conspiracy, Where Silence Has Lease, and The Enemy
What use would Starfleet have in a officer, android or not, who would not kill if they were ordered to? Its literally in the job description.
41:02 No the belt would not block that. (More specifically, the forcefield device attached to his belt.)
40:32 Much more gruesome than the Chorus getting zapped.
I find it funny the way people frequently use TOS here as a knock " oh, it felt like TOS" when the most TOS episode we've seen so far is YE.
Won’t speak for anyone else, but for the record whenever we say it’s like TOS it’s rarely ever negative. We obviously love that series.
Somehow, I can't pin it down, but this episode feels like a misplaced TOS episode. A C-tier episode with B and A tier moments sprinkled in.
29:58 "Picard not great with names lately." LOL!!!
18:46 No, it was going to take 16 hours to get to their destination. If they needed more hytritium, it would take 3 weeks to get to where it is. The USS Grissom is closer to where it is than the Enterprise.
You were right. I was wrong. They are fickle. ;
It’s a solid episode, its strength lies in the crews reactions to Data’s “death” and I’ve always loved the ambiguous ending. Not one of my top 6 of the season but falls somewhere in the middle of the pack.
All great episodes. Every one! Seriously you bring up great points but hey, it's television... BTW, this episode was written by my friends cousin.
A rule of screenwriting: give the audience information that the characters don’t have.I don’t think this episode could have worked any other way because you’d have to pick one. Either Data’s scenes, or the crew’s. This is a great episode. Not the best, but a solid “B”. I know you guys like to try to figure out the mystery as it goes along, but it just won’t work on many stories. When the audience knows what’s going on but the characters don’t it gives you a reason to rout them on.
We said we were OK with knowing about Data when they didn’t, the issue was them spending a bunch screen time trying to figure it out instead of more scenes with Data
Fajo says "You want to see me beg for mercy? You're not going to get any of that." And he proceeds to sit down. After he had to force Data to finally sit down just hours before. Later he touches the confinement force field, just like Data touched the confinement force field. Nice details in the script.
I've never liked this one and usually skip it. But this is mainly because I find episodes centering around sleezy villains to be difficult to watch. And I especially can't stand watching anything by Saul Rubinek for this exact reason. The guy is good at what he does, but there is something about him that just always oozes extra sleeze. I don't get that effect when I watch this episode with the original actor. So I always thought that was just my personal bias preventing me from enjoying a great episode that everyone else liked. But you guys brought up good points. Like "The Hunted," this episode suffers from execution problems, and could have been a lot better if it were executed differently. I find this episode boring too for that reason, and there is a lot that I don't buy into. Particularly, why would Data lie at the end? I can see him making the logical decision to kill somebody even though, as he said in "The Hunted" he is not programmed to kill. But why would he lie about it afterwards? as you said, he'd just explain his logical conclusion to Riker.
Because Data knew how much more paperwork would have been involved.
My patron take was accurate because you guys take the time to explain what you like and what you dislike clearly and honestly. So I saw you guys struggling with certain parts of this episode but that you'd still enjoy it. You'd just wish it had been even better than it was.
I didnt find it boring at all on 1st airing and repeats. Intriguing actually in that we get to know more about Data and analysing just how far his programming will go. And thought Saul Rubinek: Kivas Fajo did a wonderful job in his acting. A little nit picking in this episode I thought. (Yep I love Captains Holiday and adore Tin Man episode!) But glad you at least liked it a little bit. It also shows collecting material things just for your own pleasure and "showing off" what you have reenforces and emptiness with something missing from in this case, his life. (just my opinion of course, and have collected things before but then sell them on to someone who will actually make good use of them) The discharged phaser during transport is very interesting and again progresses and evolves Data another step further...
We nit pick every single episode, people only point it out when they disagree with us
I've always thought this was a good episode. Perhaps some of these episodes seem better to those of us who have seen the entire series in relation to the entire body of episodes. I agree, though that they might have had a stronger reaction to Data being "dead," but like with Tasha's death they had to complete the mission, before they had time to grieve. And by the time the mission was complete Geordi was all ready onto the idea that Data might still be alive. (It was three weeks travel to get more of the substance they needed, it was only hours to the planet that was contaminated, so Data had been gone for only about 2 days) Your taking of a break from ST:TNG is coming at a good time. I think some of your reaction might be coming from a boredom with the series.
It is a good episode. That’s why it’s frustrating.
the number one draft pick the year Brady was drafted was Courtney Brown, a defensive end drafted by the Cleveland Browns. He had a productive rookie season but struggled to stay healthy the rest of his career, a good example for your analogy.
Yeah, as an Ohioan I’m aware of the BUST Courtney Brown. I thought he was 2001 draft not 2000 for some reason. I was young.
"I am the third act..." lmao!!
I Give up
The guest star's acting wasn't good enough?!!! You guys are on drugs. Or too much Fireball.
I think considering the circumstances Saul Rubinek did a great job, can’t have been easy being dropped in last minute and refilming stuff that had already been done
Funny, I don't recall any complaints in TOS during the many times Kirk was shown sleeping in his uniform. Or maybe you did. It's been a long time since I rewatched a TOS reaction. Another episode where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Fair enough.
Was there ever a scene of Kirk asleep in his quarters? I genuinely don’t remember.
At the time Data was contemplating shooting him, he didn't know that the Enterprise had figured out he wasn't dead. Presumably after killing the guy he could have escaped, but the point is it was an "emotional" decision, not a rational one.
I respectfully disagree. It was a logical decision. The only way to stop his reign of terror was to shoot him. Imp
This episode is a popular one and by many considered almost seminal, but mostly because of the questions it raises about Data and how limited by his programming he is. Is he more human than even he realises? I personally think it's the right story told in the wrong order. Had it been shown entirely from the Enterprise POV after Data entered the shuttle, we were shown them trying to come to terms with his death. Then had them go "OK so this contamination is suss. Wait this dude is a collector? F me! We need to track down and talk to this prick." Then had Data wake up, make Varia a more sympathetic character and shown the situation getting dangerous. The audience would be on the edge of their seats waiting for the Enterprise to arrive. Instead we only got that tension for the escape attempt. Maybe if they hadn't been on the backfoot with losing filming days they could have made improvements. Who knows. But from the cut scenes, it wasn't Rappaport's best work, and with hindsight we know he wasn't in a good place. So it may have never been destined to be as good as it might have been.
They also cut a scene- Fazio or whatever sent in Varya to try and seduce him because he knew Data was "fully functional" and wanted to see him having sex, Data rejects her which humiliates her and is part of her arc of turning against her captor/lover, but the producers axed that scene
Thank heavens they axed that.
yeah, the original actor with the makeup might have been better but his suicide attempt forced a new actor and a quick reshoot. I thought he was ok.
It was a successful suicide attempt unfortunately. David Rappaport. Very sad.
He described the belt as interfering with Positronic activity. Presumably its also some kind of charge as it knocked Data backwards. It also feels like we've seen something similar to the vernon t disruptor but with a more dramatic effect in the episode where the deaf guy with the "chorus" had his chorus killed, but that seemed to work more like described here. I guess it was a prototype
The Chorus was killed from the outside-in. Varria was killed from the inside-out.
Maybe the panel for the gun only lets you do so many attempts before it locks out and Data has tried before so he is guessing combos.
Good thought
I think there might be a disconnect again between you guys and the other fans. This is definitely a 10/10 for me.
I loved it too. But its their opinion, which is okay. I’m not sure that those “not so great” parts really ruined the episode at all. Were the parts of the crew trying to figure it out unnecessary? Sorry, but I dont think they were. Thats what they should have been doing. Not perfect. But a little overboard with the nitpicking. But thats just me. One if the best of season 3.
I half-agree with them. Structure it completely from Data's POV, the entire episode is mind games Fajo is playing with him, and at the end when he goes to fire, he suddenly gets transported, we play out as we saw in the episode, with the caveat we hear that our crew figured it out off screen (because by S3 they are all just that good, we don't need to see the steps). I think it would have been stronger, along with tightening up the whole personal forcefield idea (or scrapping it for a different method to hold Data at bay while allowing dynamic camera shots in their interactions).
The site of the contamination was 16 hours away, as Riker noted in the hook. The backup supply of hytritium was three weeks away, and they signaled the Grissom to stand by there in case they needed to grab that too. The whole episode takes place in 2-3 days, more or less.
Recall Geordi had been running himself ragged, he just crashed without bothering to take off his uniform
Troi and Worf together?! Now there’s an interesting idea. Maybe in a parallel universe.
you guys seemed especially nitpicky starting this one. As far as the three weeks, I think Data is mostly alone. Fajo's sees him as an item, part of his colection, he's not interacting with him all the time.
Also, it wasn't 3 weeks. It was 16 hours to the Enterprise's destination. 3 weeks was how long it would take if they needed to take a detour to get more of the chemical.
The various items are valuable one of a kind treasures. Data doesn't act from anger, smashing them wouldn't make any sense, it wouldn't make Kivas set him free and most of the items are stolen. Data isn't going to destroy valuable property for no reason.
Has nothing to do with anger. My guess would be the guy doesn’t value Data over his entire collection (or at least what’s in that room) and nothing is stopping Data from destroying it. I don’t think not wanting to break things that belongs to others would outweigh being a slave to Data.
it's Salvador Dali, and the painting is called "The Persistence of Memory"
That makes Josh's flub on his name fraking hilarious
There are a couple types of mysteries in stories: the ones where the truth is discovered by the viewer/reader and by the protagonists at the same time, and ones where the truth is revealed early on to the viewer/reader but the protagonist doesn't discover it until the end. The first types are the Sherlock Holmes and Agatha Christie stories and the where you're basically with the protagonist the whole time. The latter however works better for this type of story, where you are also with the antagonist and see what he's doing. The entertainment is in experiencing the protagonists uncover the mystery, seeing their thought processes. I'm not sure there is a proper, other place they could have put the uncovering of the mystery to the audience and still had time to play out the dynamic between Data and Kivas Fajo (which is a fun name to say). This second type isn't a mystery story, just a story which contains a mystery. I *do* agree they could have had more about the emotional impact this had on the crew, but with 45 minutes, a story has to pick its scenes. Also, strongly disagree about your take on Saul Rubinek - he's a excellent actor and has been in a lot of movies and tv, but all things art are a matter of taste
So the writers wanted it more explicit that Data did shoot but the producers wanted it more ambiguous. I think he did shoot but was not lying, his program told him he didn't since it was ambiguous as he did but didn't. Originally there was a different actor playing Kivasnwith more alien makeup, sort of troll looking. He was short and they wanted to have his ship be scaled to his size. The actor attempted suicide after some shooting, and they had to reshoot things with a new actor (who works well). The original actor did commit suicide 2 months later. This is a hard one for me as I like it but for whatever reason they replay it so much in syndication, I feel like I have each scene memorized and it's hard to separate that from my original feelings on it, though I did enjoy it. It always feel to go fast for me.
There are deleted scenes on the blu-ray with the original actor David Rappaport as The Collector, which might be worth reacting to as a bonus item.
Grissom was the ship from your favorite movie, Josh! FOR FUCKS SAKE BRO. What you guys don't understand is... No, i'm kidding. Hey, if you love A B plots where we're ahead of the characters in one storyline, just you wait! Hoo boy. Saul Rubinek is a great character actor, and he does a great job with Kivas. I do wish the episode was ENTIRELY focused around the two banger of Data and Vajo, though.
The first version of Spider-Man that I ever saw was the version on The Electric Company. He didn't talk (he used word balloons and I was too young to read at the time). He was scary as fuck.
(Posting without watching the reaction and discussion yet. Due to the heat wave, I haven't felt like synching up the Blu-rays with the reactions for several days. This is also why I haven't commented on "Hollow Pursuits" yet -- I didn't remember it well enough to comment without rewatching it.) Along with “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” “The Offspring” and “Sins of the Father,” “The Most Toys” is one of my six top-ranked Season 3 episodes. Other Star Trek fans do not necessarily hold this episode in as high regard as I do; it is perfectly understandable to prefer “Who Watches the Watchers,” “The Bonding,” “The Enemy” or “The Defector” to “The Most Toys.” However, I personally find this episode more interesting than those others. (“A Matter of Perspective” is also a personal favorite of mine, as it is for Alex and Josh; for some reason the TNG production team seems not to have realized how good it was.) I have an unusual but beautiful memory of watching this episode with my late mother. Mom was a huge Data fan, and I had always been under the impression that she had loved this episode, which we originally saw sometime in the 1990s. Around 2010, when Mom was terminally ill, I mentioned the episode to her and was surprised to discover that she did not remember it. However, when I showed it to her on DVD, she loved it just as much as I had remembered her loving it the first time. There is an outlandish theory about this episode floating around the Internet for which there is no evidence either in the episode or outside it: that Kivas Fajo is a hostile parody of the title character of "Doctor Who." Fajo and the Doctor have nothing in common other than being eccentrics who answer to no higher authority and travel with attractive young women. One could say the same of the Count of Monte Cristo, and no one claims that Fajo is a satire of that character. There is a tendency for "Doctor Who" fans to dislike and resent Star Trek, perhaps because they consider it too conformist or because it was so much more popular than "Doctor Who" for so long, whereas Star Trek fans tend to love "Doctor Who" and consider themselves faithful Whovians. (This fascinates me because, although I have been a fan of both shows for my entire adult life, I started watching "Star Trek" about three years before "Doctor Who.") This may explain the origin of such a farfetched and implausible theory concerning “The Most Toys.” The production of “The Most Toys” experienced one of the saddest behind-the-scenes events in Star Trek’s history. British actor David Rappaport, who was a little person and had starred in the 1986-1987 CBS series "The Wizard," was the initial choice for the role of Kivas Fajo. (Gates McFadden was a member of "The Wizard"’s original cast, appearing in the pilot episode, but another character replaced her for the later episodes.) Timothy Bond, the director of “The Most Toys,” wanted the sets of Fajo’s ship built to match Rappaport’s size, with four-foot-high ceilings, forcing everyone else to bend over while in his domain; fortunately, as it turned out, the rest of the production team overruled Bond. Rappaport, who suffered from depression, began filming the episode (a selection of his completed scenes appears on the Season 3 Blu-ray), but attempted to take his own life over the weekend during production, necessitating the recasting of the role. Tragically, Rappaport shot himself to death two months later, three days before the first broadcast of “The Most Toys.” For the first time since “The Alternative Factor” in 1966 (and under far more distressing circumstances), Star Trek had to recast the main guest star of an episode on an emergency basis at the last minute. Canadian actor Saul Rubinek, a Trekkie who had gone to school with Bond, was in Los Angeles at the time and called Bond to ask if he could visit the TNG sets. When Bond got back to him, he asked, “How much do you want to see these sets?” While the late Robert Brown’s performance as Lazarus in “The Alternative Factor” is impressive when one takes into consideration the circumstances under which he was working, Rubinek’s performance as Kivas Fajo is simply magnificent, making the character one of the most memorable and compelling villains in TNG’s run. Rappaport had been playing Fajo with prosthetic makeup that made clear he was an alien, but there was no time to modify the prosthetic for Rubinek, who played the role with a simple facial tattoo. Both for this reason and due to changes in her character’s look that Jane Daly (Varria) requested and received with Gene Roddenberry’s approval, makeup supervisor Michael Westmore considered “The Most Toys” his least favorite of the Star Trek episodes on which he worked. Rubinek’s other TV guest roles include two episodes of the 1990s revival of "The Outer Limits" and an episode of Ronald D. Moore’s current series, "For All Mankind." Nehemiah Persoff (Toff) played the lead role in the original "Twilight Zone" episode “Judgment Night.” He also guest-starred in "Wonder Woman": “Formula 407” and, as the Eastern Alliance Leader, in "Battlestar Galactica": “Experiment in Terra” (the same episode that featured John de Lancie in a small role). Persoff was among the longest-lived Star Trek actors; he passed away in 2022 at the age of 102. Jane Daly appeared in a 1999 segment of "Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction." Finally, this episode’s effect on Michael Piller was to cause him to start collecting baseball cards.
I feel you on the heat wave man. I am not a summer person
Discussion right after: I like the right after discussion when thoughts are fresh; I like the waiting to gather thoughts discussion; Can't have both except in a mirror mirror universe. But mirror universe does not exist. Although, a clean shaven mirror mirror Josh and Alex wearing suits would be pretty awesome.
The Grissom was the ship the Klingons attacked and destroyed in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.
And presumably named after Gus Grissom.
So, did Data intend to shoot Fajo..? If so, he would have commited murder - and would have been lying to Riker about the disruptor discharge once back on the Enterprise. If not, he would have allowed Fajo to keep killing others in future. A great open ended ethical question...
He didn't outright lie, it was more of a... misdirection? "Perhaps something occurred during transport, Commander." It's fuzzy
A terrific episode for Brent Spiner and a truly tragic back history regarding the production of this story. Given the dark circumstances, it's amazing what the end result was - onscreen.
Yeah, this is a fantastic episode. One of the best of S3.
Hoping you guys are as enamored with Data’s last line in this episode. I replay that last minute over and over. Such a great scene and acting by Brent Spiner
Just in time for my pizza, ta lads!