S4E26.5: The Zone of Interest

The version i watched had no subtitles, and I dont speak German, so I had a very odd viewing experience. The movie holds up, its very well made, but it was more of a tone peice, I didnt get much of what was specifically happening.

I can‘t agree with the subtitles not being visible as a technique in the film. It‘s just inaccessible. If the line is audible and understandable to a hearing person, the subtitles need to be visible. If I can understand what he‘s saying bc I understand German, people who don‘t should also have the same access. Accessibility can‘t be treated as an aesthetic or artistic choice like that

This movie is about running away from, hiding from, and repressing your humanity, or at least parts of it, while trying and failing to continue to live as a human. What is humanity? It is kindness, compassion, empathy, understanding, and a desire for the well-being of others. It is something that is innate to human nature. But what fascism and all other acts of atrocity require is a disconnect from humanity. To commit these terrible acts, you need to block out that part of you which is repulsed by these horrible things. You need to compartmentalize it, wall it off, because you still need to live an ostensibly normal life. You want to have a family, celebrate your birthday, do well at work, and to do that you can never fully acknowledge the full truth of what you are doing. And when the function of the system of society which you exist within is to carry out these atrocities, you become fully an empty cog carrying out these actions, totally disassociated from any authentic truth or connection to the reality of it. You abandon the lived humanity and become a machine. And this is what fascism does. It removes you from humanity and turns you into a tool for the system. It placates the base desires for power and greed, and leaves you an inauthentic, hollow corpse of a human. I find Höss's story to be one of a person constantly trying to deny his humanity and ignorance the reality of what he is doing, but that humanity never fully goes away, and this denial of it just makes its re-emergence more viserally harmful to him. But because he can't do anything but repress it, he never become anything more than a willful cog in the genocide machine. I'd like to imagine that the vision of the modern day was real for him, that he was forced to see the stain on history that his actions left behind, because that just makes his decision to continue on with what he was doing to be more truthful. It's just another example of him choosing to ignore reality and his humanity. Because the truth is that, as much as I want to believe, these people who commit these horrors are inhuman monsters, they are still very human, and they have to choose every day to continue ignoring reality and their own humanity to continue doing what they do. They have to choose to subject themselves to their own dehumanization, to the hollowing out of their souls. They are not natural born monsters, they have to be made into this. And to some extent, and gives me hope that we can prevent people from turning into this, and that human nature is fundamentally humane. This may be heresy, but I see similarities in this character arc to Owen's in I Saw The TV Glow. Both characters are constantly repressing their this innate part of their humanity to conform to a horrible and miserable system. The root of all evil it seems is the rejection of our full, honest selves, and how it serves dehumanizing and exploitative systems.

I guarantee that "Live, laugh, love" written in Hebrew is on the walls of many shitty condos in Isn'treal.

Abby experience the best audio glitch ever, and it improved her film watching experience.

Oh, so this is the fascist that innovated becoming a Catholic as an adult. Must have been huge for them

So after listening to this pod I was so tense everywhere ("looks like a knuckle" would have applied if I wasn't a fat fuck) I not only had to go walk for half an hour, but I woke the next day with sore muscles all over.

wait another thing. when she tries on the furcoat she checks the seams and lining, and mentions a hole in it. My first thought was that coat lining is the "obvious" place to hide small items of worth, or even food. I wondered whether maybe all of them are used to checking these hiding spots for valuables, the stolen coat isn't enough, they want everything

On the German car thing, I had a moment of "good thing my car is Japanese- oh... oh right

There's definitely a metaphor around cleanliness in this film, where the ash that dirties the characters represents their crimes against humanity, staining them with an undeniable reminder of what they were doing, while the characters are all desperate to stay clean - to deny any wrongdoing. This is only exemplified more and more as the film goes on, where even water that'd usually be something to clean them becomes a source of dirtiness. His crimes stain him, his kids even, and so much so that eventually that dirtiness is within him, in his snot, showing that no matter how much he tries to clean himself, he will never be free of what he did, which I believe also is the reason for his poor health, so it is such a corrosive and disgusting act that it kills any semblance of himself, he is a void, within him is only dark ash and death, a process repeated in all the others like him at the party, *carbon copies* so to speak. The ending revolving around the cleaning of the modern day memorials seems to me the culmination of this metaphor, that even to this day we still sanitize and make safe (via the exit signs, extinguishers) both literally and figuratively the ideas of The Holocaust, and that we are also putting up the walls to distract from and ignore the violence and death in historic and concurrent genocides, repeating history by ignoring the inconvenient or harmful truths.

lmao looked up the night porter and the way my eyebrows FLEW off my face and into the heavens 😂 I would be genuinely so interested in an episode on this movie. KJB has earned my trust several times over at this point when it comes to nuanced discussion on messy, potentially painful subject matter

I would be very interested to have you all watch episode 8 of Lynch’s The Return and apply the ideas about filming nuclear war. That episode feels unbelievably important to a particular and strange kind of empathy.

I'd be incredibly intrigued to see what you have to say about the Night Porter. If I trust anyone to give a really thoughtful examination of a film that explores taboo and controversial themes, it's you three! I also second what another poster above said and humbly entreat you to cover First Reformed - it's such a powerful film that doesn't get nearly enough credit, and an exploration of faith and its loss that is so timely and relatable even to us non-faith-havers.

the sentiment "sometimes terrible people are also little weirdos" reminded me of the premise of friendoftheshow molly conger's podcast Weird Little Guys- highly recommend

One of the "fun" side effects of having been married to a horse girl for ten years is that *in the middle of the holocaust movie* I see that horse throwing it's head like that while Rudolph is out riding with his son and immediately think "see this is why you don't train 'em with a tie down; they expect it to be there and they pull that kind of shit."

Also, I think this is such a great episode. It is really funny and also one of the best pieces of actual film criticism that I've heard in the format.

About the HDMI incident. I watched my torrented copy of War for the Planet of the Apes almost to the end before i figured out that the apes' sign language was supposed to be subtitled and I just hadn't turned it on. I thought it was a daring, audacious move to have a huge budget movie where most of the dialogue was signed!

The HDMI thing reminds me of a slightly similar thing I had. I was house sitting at my mum's and watching one of the last episodes of Game of Thrones, (mild hauntology) it was the one with the big battle at night that was too dark to see. Just before the battle started there was this big and relentless thumping - not like a drum but sort of mechanical. It kept getting louder and louder until finally the tension broke and the army came out of the dark and everyone started dying. I thought it was a little unorthodox, but was great at building and maintaining this feeling of dread that had been lacking in later seasons. It wasn't until the music cut in during a quiet dialogue bit that I realised it was the washing machine that I had put on before starting the episode that had kicked into overdrive, lol.

Absolute all timer of an episode, I actually had to pull over the car and listen intently during the discussion on the morality and methods of depictions of extreme brutality in film. After that segment, as someone of local heritage who has made Northern Ireland my home for the last 20 years, I desperately now want to hear November's thoughts on the 1989 Alan Clarke short film for TV, 'Elephant'. The stark method it uses to depict the violence here of the time, stripped of all entertainment trappings such as plot or even barely dialogue, it couldn't help but come to my mind during that segment.

I'm surprised the team didn't identify the woman Hoss had visit him: Communist political prisoner Eleonore Hodys, The Mistress Of Auschwitz

I’m glad that they specifically mentioned the behaviour of the kids, because those are scenes that stuck with me, specifically where the older son is cruel to his brother in a way that goes beyond sibling rivalry and squabbles, and then you see him in a hitler youth uniform - this isn’t just things they are picking up from this terrible living environment, the cruelty and lack of empathy is something being intentionally instilled in children because that is what’s needed to further the aims of a fascist state.

While I appreciate discussion about quality sombre movies could youse mix them in with a LIGHT episode of Abi and Nova arguing about cute ponies or taking the piss out of nancy Americans trying to be men. I'm sure Red One would serve as a source of xmas bits - and I'm wondering if it's a movie about being Trans. I just need a break from The Horrors.

I like Zone of Interest a lot. However, I think there's a critique to be made along the lines Gillian Rose makes of Schindler's List in Mourning Becomes the Law, i.e. that Zone of Interest still participates in a framing that "others" fascists (though Zone tries to present fascists more ambiguously than does Schindler's List). The discussion of the unrepresentability of the Holocaust bears on this. Rose argues that the Holocaust's perverse sacralization itself leads to a kind of fascism via Zionism, something Zone itself comments on but might nevertheless be trapped by. So much more to say but I guess my real question is: Starship Troopers when?

Abis experience with the hdmi cable reminds me of when I watched melancholia after having smoked weed and dmt together like 10+ years ago (do not recommend), and whoever did the torrented subtitles for the opening shots of Kristen dunst running put a smiley face like :) in there, and it freaked me out and intrigued me so deeply but I thought it was purposeful 💀 like “what did Lars von trier mean by this???” Later I rewatched it sober and felt very silly

Well...as someone who has watched The Night Porter (during a phase of being fascinated by the career of Dirk Bogarde) and felt kind of sick afterwards and kind of wished they hadn't watched it...I would genuinely be interested to hear your takes on it. It would be really rough episode though and the chance of getting cancelled is definitely not zero.

Outstanding episode. Another movie which might be worth watching in the same vain would be Conspiracy from 2001. It's a blend of the didacticism of Judgment at Nuremberg and the documentary nature of this movie. But whatever you do, don't watch The Boy in the Striped Pajamas unless it's to rip it apart mercilessly.

This was a really good episode. I had to sit with it for a day for my feelings on it to settle. On the topic of future films, you've done some military propaganda films in the past (e.g. Tom Clancy movies, Rules of Engagement) and talked about eventually doing things like Zero Dark Thirty, and here mentioned War Season. On that note I'd like to suggest eventually doing Osiris (2025) for that. Its 'birthday boy' american chauvinism in the opening scenes alone is so naked that it's probably worth talking about for War Season, but it won't be as much of a downer to talk about as a lot of the main feed episodes of War Season would be.

Im surprised most people do seem to want, or are at least ok with Holocaust Season. huh. I guess id rather watch these films on my own and read about them than have my favorite comedy podcast derailed by The Holocaust. Maybe if the theme for the main feed was lighter? Granted I imagine Nova has some things to say about specifically The Night Porter that could be interesting

Devon, good eye, I believe Glazer said the retching comes directly from the Act of Killing.

Thank you for clarifying about the roll call at the end Dev. I was worried my name was just being left off, but now I know to blame Patreon for a dumb administrative process

When I heard about the kids playing gas chamber, I remembered that a classic children's game in the United States (that I may have actually played as a kid, I was born in 91, can't really remember) is "cowboys and Indians". There was also "cops and robbers", the more modern version that I definitely played as a kid, that luckily has no parallels to prison camps or slave labor.

Hate to break it to you, but when you are a child your father (or mother) can just drown you even if they ain't a concentration camp commandant. Glad mine have terrible attention spans!

If it’s holocaust season, please bring LadyKnighttheBrave on to talk The Grey Zone

I love Bob le Flambeur

One of my first jobs at the start of COVID was making ‘pauper coffins’ for New York. They are brutal, way too small for a human and I have to imagine they literally stuff you into it. I was always unnerved by it, feeling like I could almost smell death coming off them. However my coworkers were unphased, often calling me a faggot or worse. I’ll always remember that job, it still haunts me. I don’t have a point to this, I just wanted to get it out there.

The end of Höss reminds me of the ending of The Conformist.

Speaking of the armed settler/farmer: The Grapes of Wrath is one of the most beautiful, evocative, persuasive works that points out the cruelty and ridiculousness of the idea of capitalism / private property, and beautifully articulates the idea that labor is ownership. But, in this beautiful heartbreaking monologue about what makes someone's land their own, is dropped the sentence "we fought the Indians for it".

The scene that was a knife in my heart was Hedwig handing her ‘slave’ the fur coat and telling her the lining needs repairing. The knowledge that Heddy, unseen, has torn the lining looking for jewels and the actress’ subtle disappointment and contempt contrasted with the toothpaste conversation. Brutal

Go for The Night Porter. It will be a contreversial pick but I legit think you three could have a very good conversation about it.

If you are doing a Holocaust movie season, two movies that might be interesting would be "Come and See", which I have seen mentioned alongside Zone of Interest a lot. And while I haven't seen that one but "Boy in the striped pyjamas" or some other weird ill thought out careless narrative. I hate to think about it, but one day there'll be tasteless or apologetic movies about current genocides... of the "some heroes fixed everything" and "actually it was just those few evil men who are responsible" kind. "One day everyone will have been against this" is not something I look forward to seeing while people are actively telling me that what I can see with my own eyes isn't happening right now

I do want to point out that Jews in Germany were not universally wealthy, some were, but most families when being forced from their homes would grab their valuables, even if it was one or two previous luxuries, and when murdering on such a massive scale, many families' few valuables add up fast. Just the idea that Jews were the wealthy ruling class prior to the Holocaust is common and insidious. Other than that, fantastic coverage Also I recommend the film, The Gray Zone, possibly in addition to Son of Saul both are covering the same event, Gray Zone is just a little more historically accurate and a little less artsy about it

The Night Porter is a perfect example of a film being able to be forgiven for A LOT if its actually good

I had a similar "wow, this audio issue is an amazing artistic choice" when I was watching The Running Man the other day and 1h45m into it after he jumps into the river and is disoriented a loud noise filled the cinema, followed by silence. Even as the image froze, turned off and the lights came on I was like "wow, if this is intentional I respect the hell out of it!" But it was just the cinema's audio system dying.

i think Nope would be a good tie in for filming spectacle if yall wanted a film that was less deeply sad thrown in

I’ve seen this movie. The first scene is absurd and I wonder if Glazier did that to then hit us with the contrast of the subject matter. The dawning horror that unfolds was a gut punch, the greed and callousness of Hoss’ wife and the concept of raising children next to this horror. It’s so fucked up on so many levels.

Two things: 1) Please don't look at masscare/war crimes footage unless you're in a good emotional place; traumatising yourself helps no one. 2) The way the Germans reconciled anti-socialism (and anti-democracy/anti-liberalism, etc.) with hatred of rich Jews is simple: rampant antisemitism. Jews were blamed for everything: too much equality, too little equality, too much socialism, not enough nationalism.

Joined the patreon just to get at this one

Now imagining an extremely harrowing double feature of this and the video game Mouthwashing, another piece of media with shockingly similar themes.

The song is just another indictment of Schindler's List because that movie uses a song written in the fucking 60s that laments our exile from Jerusalem (but also heralds an imminent return to it) that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLOCAUST. This film uses a song written by an actual holocaust survivor who had something to say about his situation and has it performed by a little Polish girl. It says something about hope and the human spirit. It says something about music as communication across language barriers (as long as you can read music, I guess). It's meaning, not spectacle.

Well since Nova brought up how much she hates it, they have to do Jojo Rabbit next.

Black narcissus for religious season

Not the lüften joke

PLEASE do The Night Porter I’ve been haunted by it ever since my first watch please please please

The "dream job at Auschwitz" stuff is very much text not subtext

ATSAB

Many years ago I had the experience of visiting Auschwitz when I was school-age. The place is exactly the same and has been (more or less) since it was designated a museum in 1947. The final moments of this movie brought it all back and I'd strongly recommend anyone to visit if you get the chance. I've never been anywhere else where I was so aware of the crushing weight of history, and films like The Zone of Interest show us with brutal clarity why we need to never stop making this kind of art, to always keep our eyes open and never once turn away.

How you described the militarized surveillance of Aleksandra Kołodziejczyk exactly describes the Sumud flotilla.

yelling at November not because of The Night Porter but because she hasn't picked First Reformed yet

Fully understand if you decide against reviewing The Night Porter but I'd genuinely be super interested to hear November and y'alls insights. If any crew could provide a unique and modern perspective on this film it's you three. While everyone involved in perpetrating the Holocaust should've been executed they sadly weren't, so how these people lived on afterwards is something that should be examined and interrogated (whether the film does a good job of that or not).

Listening to Rudolf Höss Birthday Boy on my actual birthday is giving me an odd feeling

Will there be a big enough room to memorialise Palestine? How do you greive genocide without going mad?

Any news on the "adverse conditions film club" tee-shirts, I paid months ago and not yet delivered?

seems to me the question for the next film is whether you want to continue doing Religion Season or delve into a new Holocaust Season. I will say that Holocaust Season could leave you continually hesitating to make jokes, which isnt exactly what this podcast is about

begging with all my heart, body, and soul for yous to cover Come and See

Something I wanted to jump off the point about the baby and the dog; they pick up the baby when she cries and they look at the dog when they whine, but no one comforts them. The family are incapable (or choose to be incapable) of giving comfort and empathy, even to those they would claim to love and who are crying out for it

This is certainly very zone-of-interesting to me

there is also I feel a tacit critique of how the site is deployed politically narratively as an emblem Abby is right in that the Act of Grace is one that no soul is beyond contrition -Repentance- but also that it is somewhat immaterial. God will see to his

Was legitimately worried this week's episode was the Bones thing.