MP Watch Party: Wall-E and Spy

One of my biggest regrets is my 19 year old self telling my friend out loud to “kill me if I get that fat”. I can’t believe I said that and I’m pretty sure a kid heard me. I know I was 19 but omg. What a monstrous thing to say. It’s taken me a long time to undo that mentality and this podcast has helped so much. When we know better we do better.

My dark secret is that I hard-core ship Melissa McCarthy and Jason Statham in Spy 😂

I saw this movie years before I even heard about fat activism or fat phobia or anything and deeply believing that thin was the only healthy way etc. - and even I was horrified at the fat depiction in this movie

Not me completely forgetting about half this movie and being excited for a cute ep

Hearing about Spy made me want to hear y'all talk about Thunder Force. I haven't seen Spy but I put it on my watch list!

Doing my drama training as a 16 YEAR OLD I was always cast as the mum. In everything. And I knew why.

Currently reprogramming my like as an emotional support fat and it's a ride. I'd love to read and talk more to other people about the phenomenon Aubrey describes and its roots in cultural depictions of fat people because MAN it has made people angry that I no longer offer hot and cold running emotional support.

I’m running through the backlog again and had a little epiphany. I’m Gen Z, born in 2002, and grew up watching Pixar movies like these. I recalled Wall-E as a sweet anti-capitalist/environmentalist story. Looking back, this movie instilled some incredible fatphobia and ableism in me that has taken years to deprogram. Truly eye-opening in retrospect.

catching up on the backlog and v excited that the pod took on a very specific hatred of mine. i don't care what the critics say abt wall-e i can't stand that preachy little fuck

Would you guys ever do a review of thunder force??? It’s a movie with Melissa MacArthur as a super hero!

CW fatphobia I'm sorry, I just remembered that Nick Offerman has a little anecdote / comparison that he loves to make whenever he advocates for his brand of "rugged liberalism". He decries a future America where Americans turn into "the humans from Wall-e who ride around on little scooters". He was accepting some award from some federal parks department when he said that he hopes that the national parks are never made handicap accessible, because then those Wall-e humans would be riding around everywhere

Would be interested to hear about "fat kid rules the world", a book/movie about a fat kid who learns to be a punk drummer. I'm pretty sure there's no "weight loss victory" in the end. His dad and brother are both extremely fit, and the brother is kind of a jerk and the dad is strict but sort of accepting. "Run Fatboy Run" is something. The movie opens, Simon Pegg leaves his pregnant wife at the altar, flash forward and he's a aimless sort of loser who has a dead end job and can't make rent. He has gained, like, 30 lb. Blah blah blah, he has to run a marathon to prove to his ex-wife and kid that he can actually finish something in his life. So the titular "Fat Boy" of the movie is a slightly chubby Simon Pegg. He wore a tiny fat suit for the first act or two.

So, I’ve been comfort relistening to a bunch of your old episodes, and in listening to this one, I think I might have an idea for another bonus show you could do. You could call it: My Favorite Microaggression. I was listening to the piece at the end, where Aubrey talks about only being cast in servant or teacher parts (or, in my experience, older character - grandmas can be fat and it’s ok). Just have readers/listeners write in and share theirs? I’m sure there are a ton. But, to be clear, I mean this to be more darkly funny than tragic. Like… no stories from doctors offices — those aren’t microaggressions. More like, accidental rudeness that’s funny. Example: when I was in college, a friend and I were walking into the library to work on a project together. There was a turnstile to get into the library, where you scan your student id, and an older gentleman library employee was sat next to it, just kind of supervising, ostensibly for security, I guess? And he was calling out compliments to any female students who walked by. (Note: this was sweet, rather than perverse. At least at the time) To my friend: “Wow! You look like a model!” To me: “You look like you’ll be a great…. (face contorts as he searches for any kind of compliment) teacher!” That sort of thing. Or, for example: by the time I was in my mid-to-late twenties, most of my high school friends were married/coupled off, and eventually, I was the only single adult female human at their parties. I also had a male counterpart, in that there was one guy belonging to their friend group who was still single. At one of their parties (a housewarming, I think?), he got drunk enough to hit on me. So, sad/microaggression: this guy had to be drunk off his gourd and *barely* able to walk in order for him to hit on me, but it was fun to watch him get drunker and drunker, scan the room and zero in on me like some sort of inebriated robocop. Not *that* funny, but I’m sure other people have better stories.

New here, listening to the backlog of bonus episodes, and Aubrey's discussion of SPY and how fat people will make themselves useful to feel less like an inconvenience has sniped me into immediate blubbering tears holy shit

I just subscribed to your Patreon and have been going back through the old episodes and just wanted to thank you both for this conversation. I saw Wall-E when it came out and was so uncomfortable the whole time. But everyone else adored it so much I've thought for years the problem was me: I'm too sensitive or too negative or reading too much into it. This was genuinely cathartic to listen to.

https://www.disneydining.com/problematic-pixar-is-wall-e-fatphobic-kc1/

I was terrified y'all were gonna be down on Paul Fieg. >.< not my Office director! lol I was also worried because I have seen Spy and didnt see anything wrong with it, glad I was right in my recollection and that you guys liked it! such a funny movie. love it!

I really want to watch Spy now after listening to this. I stopped watching Melissa McCarthy movies after Bridesmaids because I kind of hated how all movies seemed to feel the need to make her less attractive and hyperfocused on fatness in a negative way. There's other reasons why I don't like Bridesmaids, the big wedding dress poop joke being a big one, but I was a fan of McCarthy from Gilmore Girls where I felt like they treated her character more as a full fledged person than a trope. Side note: I love how this podcast also makes me feel seen as a disabled person.

Someone wants me to watch Dumplin’ and I am too afraid. Can you watch it for me and tell me if it’s awful 🙈 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4878482/

Everything you said during the Spy segment about society's expectations of fat people goes triple for the autism spectrum.

I love you both so much, but please please stop using ableist words like “stupid”, especially in discussions about ableism <3

Everybody spending the whole movie convincing Melissa McCarthy that she doesn’t have any power or skill is like the karate kid in reverse, where they spent the whole movie convincing Ralph Macchio that he has tons of power and skill. And also, it’s also just like Harry Potter and all the other boy genius movies and books from the 70s onwards.

Off topic/on topic… can we talk about Monster House and how Fatphobic that garbage was?

I’m pretty sure Disney+ doesn’t preface Wall-E with its patented “Oops we messed up” disclaimer. 🙄 Great episode. I had forgotten about that Gilbert Grape line. File that under “things to think about when in the mood to cry”.

i always got roles of service at school! i played frau schmidt in the sound of music, even though i was more suited to the role of von trapps fiancé! i was also an objectively better actor and singer than the person that got the role. in another play i was cast as the prince’s funny fat male friend…i am a woman. i gave up on theatre and quit the last role. my talent wasn’t enough, they needed me to be thin in order to be a lead.

Oh my god hearing the way you guys talk about spy was so refreshing. I often feel bad for enjoying media because it makes me feel validated because it feels self indulgent, but thin people have everything and watch tonnes of things that validate thier humanity. Another peice of media that I think has quite good fat representation is The Vicar of Dibley, its a TV series from the UK. The lead is Dawn French, a fat woman who is unapologetically fat as well smart and funny and attractive. It's definitely dated in many ways but growing up I watched it and felt for the first time that maybe being fat didn't make me a bad person.

When is the watch party for hairspray the original?

I am a fat woman who is half latinx and the way I went yeah I get fat shit AND the “guess my ethnicity game” before getting to the end where Michael mentioned his friend going on Tinder dates and I was like yes YES!!

On the "what would human bodies look like growing up in zero g?" front, the hard science fiction book series "The Expanse" explores this. It is set ~300 yrs in the future where humans have colonized the solar system. There is a population of people, known as Belters, who have lived for generations in space, on ships, stations, asteroids and moons with low to no gravity. Because of this they are significantly taller and thinner, as the science theorizes people would be. In this world, "Skinnies" has become a slur used against Belters due to their different physiques. Resources are scarce in the Belt and poverty is rampant, which is a factor that differs from the Wall-E scenario, but it is an interesting contrast nonetheless. This is not reflected in the(excellent nonetheless) TV adaptation because the actors are from Earth(maybe they could have done this with CGI, but didn't have the budget).

Aubrey, I would love to know what you think of the movie "Kung-fu Panda." I have heard it was originally pitched as "fat ninja." I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

The invisible fat best friend is such a bothersome trope! I’d love for your take on Ladybird (why did they rekindle over cheese and nothing else?? v toxic friendship)

Did I forget entirely that this movie existed? Yes. Does it allllllll need to get locked far away into my subconscious again? Absolutely! Thanks for a bunch of laughs and reminding me my 🧠 is a lil wild about food due to tons of wildddd social messaging

I just rewatched the “Weight Loss” episode of The Office (season 5 episode 1, from 2008.) Would be so curious about your take on it!

would love to hear you guys talk about Brittany Runs a Marathon which is a movie from 2019 with very weird fat politics iirc

This is my first time getting even the full plot synopsis of Wall-E. When it came out, everyone was head over heels. I tried watching it once; did not make it far due to my own fears and sensitivities about global warming (was once in a state of panic and near dissociation for 3 full days after an episode of Planet Earth...) I never got to the "fat stuff" portion of Wall-E, and it sounds terrible!! Apparently I did right by never hopping on the "but you HAVE to see it!" train at the time, and instead attending to my own personal boundaries!

I never saw Wall-E or Spy so have no point of reference but, on the topic of consumed entertainment, I recently got rid of all the books that I had of the Stephanie Plum series by Janet Evanovich. I just got so sick of how the author, through Stephanie, would talk about the secondary character, Lula, as a "buxom Black woman who would squeeze her size 16 self into size 10 clothes" IN EVERY BOOK. I had 25 of the nearly 30 books in that series.

Aubrey your thoughts on Spy resonated so hard!! 😭

This really hit home. Literally. When my youngest (now 15) was little he watched this movie constantly. It was background noise in the house for several months. He was nonverbal at the time and I think related to Wall-E’s ability to communicate. He still has the movie poster in his room. At any rate, it was the one movie I was never able to watch with him in its entirety. Until this podcast I had no idea what the full story line was.

I’ve never seen this movie and don’t think I want to.

Love the watch party and critique. Our old buddy Michael Pollen has a new documentary about psychedelic mushroom (on Netflix), would love an episode watching through that to hear y’all’s thoughts. Seriously thanks for the great podcast!!

GOD this movie made me so viscerally uncomfortable as a kid. I couldn’t ever watch it a second time, even though I think the robots are genuinely outstanding as character designs. I wasn’t an expert at reading subtext but the implication of fatness/disability as, like, a regression to infancy stuck out to me to this day.

As a fat trans person, the things Aubrey said during the Spy review really resonated with me in an interesting way. I've been taught to "service others" to alleviate the burden of existing and to apologize for and explain my body both for being fat and being trans. Of course these show up in different ways (cis people as a rule aren't terrified of becoming trans the way thin people are of becoming fat), but I've found that as the trans community gains acceptance, "we'll meaning" cis people feel like it's acceptable to comment on trans people's presentation, medical decisions, and bodies in ways similar to thin people giving "well meant" diet advice. I've thought a lot about the intersection of fatness and transness when it comes to medical gatekeeping and the ways fat people tend to be de-gendered, but this is the first time I've really thought about the ways our bodies are policed in similar ways, despite having experienced it for so long.

Oh wow the stuff towards the end about fat people feeling the need to “service” others is spot on and I wish it was on a normal episode so I could spread it far and wide

Wow. This one super hit home for me. I was in college when wall e came out and I loved it for the adorable robots, and as a fat person, I laughed along with everyone else in the theatre to all the fatphobia. All while tearing up and just knowing that that’s what all those people thought of me. I’ve internalized so much fatphobia throughout my life it’s just astounding. Also, Aubrey, the experiences you spoke about as a fat person are absolutely my experiences too. Especially feeling the need to hold emotional space for friends about body image stuff, and being of service. Love the podcast, it’s helped me understand myself so much better.

Hey love the podcast! Can you do an episode on the 2010 documentary fat, sick and nearly dead please!

Please do a bonus episode about Teal Swan! Just watched the most wild documentary about her on Hulu, 'The Deep End'

Fodmap for sure

if you want a good laugh, i recommend watching the clean version of Spy. they change every “fuck” to “heck” or “freaking” and it’s HILARIOUS

I would love to hear your take on the movie “Dumplin’,” for many reasons.

I would love to hear your take on low-FODMAP diets. There's something…rotten in denmark and I'm unsure what's going on with this prolific, restrictive, pseudo-medical "health" diet.

So incredibly interesting about emotional support from fat people to thin people. Yes I feel this. I think one place it comes from is a sort of “Cyrano de Bergerac” living-vicariously dynamic. Where you become aware as a fat person that you won’t be taken seriously in the world, you won’t be able to get stuff done or get what you want or get the person you want or have your ideas listened to. And so you have to live vicariously. That’s what you get. You can’t date the dude, but you can advise your thin friend about her love life. You can’t speak in public but you can create the words or ideas for someone else to say. The only way you can express yourself is like Cyrano de Bergerac whispering from behind the curtain. Your satisfaction is supposed to come from those moments when you hear or see someone else doing your stuff. This is what Spy does so perfectly. She is that woman, who has almost convinced herself that the vicarious life is enough. And it’s not. It’s not enough.

Would LOVE to hear an episode on Everlywell/home food sensitivity tests!

Oh my god, I really wish that last little bit about Spy and the learned experience of being as convenient and helpful to thin people as possible was shareable. This NEEDS to be communicated and I’ve never been able to articulate it myself.

Any chance of a happy discussion of Steven Universe? I feel like I see a fair amount of gender discussion around it but find it affirming of difference and all bodies.

I would love to hear a mini episode or opinions on Jordan Peterson’s comments on Yuma Nu sports illustrated cover. Since you did a two parter on him it would be interesting to hear about that and your broader ideas on diversity on magazines and curve models.

I’d be curious to hear feedback on Dumplin!

I remember leaving Spy feeling on top of the world. I was *ecstatic* that the jokes weren’t “haha look at this fat person trying to do stuff”. I hadn’t seen any MM movies before that and was fully expecting awful fatphobic physical comedy and fat jokes at her expense, and was so surprised and thrilled by the movie. That the overarching message was essentially that her being fat doesn’t hold her back (mentally, physically, sexually), how people treat her is what holds her back was HUGE.

Thank you for this great episode. Aubrey, if you do more re-watches, I think they should be movies like "Spy" (or, if they aren't so thoroughly great, have elements of its awesomeness) so you're not enduring infuriating fat-phobia for the podcast that you could have otherwise avoided revisiting or experiencing for the first time. I don't want to ask you to consume more of this bullshit.

I'd say, while the critic in Ratatoullie was an antagonistic figure, I don't perceive him as the main villain of the story. Just as someone who cares about quality so much that he makes it into an elitist worldview. But in the end he is the one caring about food to the extend that he is open and willing to changing his perception of the world, even if that devalues him in the eyes of society. The actual villain is the head chef who wants to sell the brand of the restaurant to market frozen food and meals, which opens it's own can of worms about critiquing capitalism without addressing who can afford good food and who cannot.

Wonderful episode! Please do one about anti-fatness on "The Office". There is so much 🤯

I second how grateful I am about you sharing your personal experience in this episode, Aubrey. I feel like so much of what I experience gets filtered through a lens of what I was taught was "appropriate," and that definitely never included questioning whether there was anything wrong with people shaming me for my size. I appreciate hearing that you struggle with these things even as you manage to be such a voice of logic and wisdom and all around kick-ass-edness. My apologies if this has already been shared here--I did a search and couldn't find anything--but I would love to hear if Aubrey or anyone else has any resources for overcoming body shame. I would really, really like to put down the constant obsessive thoughts I have about whether I "deserve" to eat what I want, or exist as I am, or am worthy of love.

Check out Trinity/Invisible Spy sketches on A Black Lady Sketch Show for Spy's next gen progeny.

On the 2nd Calories episode - If I go to McDonald's or Applebees, it's because I have a craving, and I certainly do NOT want to know how many calories I'm consuming. I agree it would be much more useful to require restaurants to disclose sodium content, and other ingredients such as dairy or gluten. I would include any restaurant that has more than 3 outlets, since they will be working off standard recipes throughout the chain. I wish there was basic nutrition training for restaurant staff. I can't tell you how many times I've let staff know that Eggs are not Dairy products, however Butter is, and my lactose intolerant partner can eat the baked goods made from eggs, but not the buttery ones.

Guys! I would love your analysis on QOVES YouTube channel

I watched osmosis jones last night and i would love to hear maintenance phase talk about it. It was directed by the farrelly brothers (throwback to shallow hal) and is truly... bad

Haha, Ratatouille is cancelled. Racacoonie is the new hot thing.🤣 🦝 I also second Brittany Runs A Marathon. I had a lot of issues with it!

I just listened to this episode and loved it (of course. I love all your episodes). Aubrey, I appreciate your personal observations of your own experiences SO much. I am not fat and have not experienced the world in the same way you have and so much of it is gut wrenchingly sad and infuriating. It really hit home for me when Mike mentioned that he didn't see Spy in the same way as you because I have also not experienced so much of the shit that you have. I am absolutely one of the people you talked about in an early episode where you assigned everyone a number that corresponded to how likely you were to change their minds for political organizing I'm sure I would have rated really low on that scale. I imagine it's so hard to share such personal stories, but this podcast has literally changed the way I look at the world and I appreciate it so much.

Another excellent episode. Spy is one of my all time favorites. I remember leaving the theater and thinking "I'm leaving a movie with a fat lady character and I don't feel bad about myself or deep shame about my body! Yay!" Her reaction to those disguises had me laughing so hard! I also really love Miranda Hart so the two of them together was a real bonus.

It's Soylent Green! Not Plant of the Apes.

Out of morbid curiosity I watched Idiocracy recently and realized Walle-E is like Idiocracy for kids

I worked at Disneyland at the time this came out and I definitely remember some pretty terrible takes on how the movie reminded people of the guests in ECVs. 🙃🙃

Nah Mike, the Incredibles isn't anti affirmative action, it's just fascist propaganda. It's literally just "the biological superior ubermensch are being put down by the degenerate populace and evil communist science that wants to make everyone equal". Oh also "what were they eating?" They were eating human flesh. I'm sorry to inform you.

I got a people of Walmart coloring book from goodwill - so not supporting the actual company and getting it for really cheap- and I cut the fat, disabled, and visibly queer people out and repurpose them into collages with body liberation affirmations

Wait can you please do a bonus episode on how terrible The L Word is??

I'm getting a "broken source" error on my podcast app with the rss feed suddenly as an fyi

Michael as soon as you said there was a movie quote you always think of…I KNEW IT WOULD BE THat Gilbert grape exchange!!!! SAME.

I’ve got some great fat rep that I thought of after listening to you talk about Spy. Not sure if either of you are horror fans but if you are (or if anyone else is in this comment thread) check out the book Manhunt by Gretchen Felker-Martin. It’s a horror pulp novel about a world where a virus infects people who have high levels of testosterone. There’s a couple of bigger characters and one fat character in particular who is the best fat character I have ever had the pleasure to experience. She’s great. The novel is very gory and deals with sexual assault so please look up content warnings before reading. The book is definitely not for everyone, but her character (she’s called Indi) is such a breath of fresh air.

I remember loving the first half hour of Wall-E, then feeling totally betrayed and livid about the portrayal of the fat people, like that was the worst thing that could happen to humans. I was so angry when I left that movie. I went with a non-fat friend who didn’t quite understand my anger. I, of course, didn’t want to spoil the film for them, so I only talked about the cute parts.

I just want to affirm that as a fat person, the feeling of “my very presence is burdensome and my job is to relieve that burden” is something I am actively trying to undo in myself and my relationships right now. I rewound that part of this episode and listened back so many times, you put it into words perfectly Aubrey. I’ve had that conversation with many of my fat friends as well, and I’ve found that we often share the experience of being an “emotional support human” without reciprocation in our friendships, and are working on that boundary setting now. Thank you for sharing this experience, it sucks but it’s so helpful to not feel alone in it. I love y’all and your work 💜

Ok I have a criticism... can you name "properly" your MP3 please? Trying to find you in my library is hard 😭some of us have shitty internet and like to download things! 😅 other than that thank you so much i love listening to you guys!

Michael-please delete if inappropriate but I just read your June 2nd article via Slate & thanks from the bottom of my heart. As a survivor, thank you.

Younger me would’ve gave such an snap negative response to the idea of this episode as I remember watching the move when I was a teen full of internalised fat phobia. I’m so happy that you both covered this and really highlighter the personal growth I’ve been working on to recognised and break down this shit when it comes up! I’d be super interested in any kind of episode to do with the idea of ‘gut health’ a bunch of my friends have been listening to another gut health based podcast and how ‘Great it is for your health’ but the dude has also published a diet book so I’m super skeptical… In my super limited research I wasn’t able to find a lot of neutral analysis or criticisms of the guy and his gut health work. So not sure if that means it legitimately helpful or no one’s looked into it yet. Keep up the amazing work!

Thank you for covering this! As someone who writes kids’ entertainment (including animation) I often feel like a pariah when I point out issues with Wall-E. And I appreciate the disclaimer of “we’re not shitting on this just cuz it’s for kids,” but it’s always clear (to me, at least) where you’re aiming your criticism. Great episode!

I have to admit that I loved Wall-E when it came out. I’ve learned so much from your podcast and come a long way since. I still love the robot parts but the human part of the story is so freakin cringy

I loved this! Wall-e is garbage! On the trash-covered planet of my brain, this podcast episode was a little sprout of new life. 🌱 I think everything you said is right, and there’s an even deeper layer of the garbage when you read it with a climate justice lens: Wall-e's anti-fatness is actually pretty consistent with its overall anti-human / eco-fascist messaging. In white environmental spaces, there's often this deep unspoken assumption that humans are fundamentally BAD for the planet; it would be better if there were less of us, if we went away, etc. But the reality is, we’re part of the ecosystem! It’s good we’re here! And there’s a straight line between “people are bad for the planet” and white supremacist conservation ideology that removes Indigenous people from their land, forcibly sterilizes BIPOC people to stem “overpopulation”, and has eco-fascist terrorists trying to “cleanse” the earth of non-white people. I’ve been so grateful for Indigenous / Black climate justice lenses that emphasize humans as part of the ecosystem. Humans aren’t the virus, racialized capitalism is the virus! My favorite article about this (including some reads of other, better movies) is this piece by Kendra Pierre-Louis: https://time.com/5889324/movies-climate-change/

God Aubrey every month you have a moment in the episode where you drop an observation or context that hits me directly in the chest. Things I've thought I've addressed or never even considered were tied to my fatness, that actually! Might be very much about my fatness! This episode you were 💯🔥🔥🔥🔥

Thank you so much for the recommendation to watch Spy I’m so excited to see it. Even though I’m not a fat person now, I grew up as a chubby kid who watched Wall-E and thought it was about me. I’m working on healing and unlearning my own fatphobia and experiences in diet culture and I really love that this podcast challenges the myths I thought were fact as a kid.

You forgot my favorite scene in Spy! Melissa McCarthy is chasing a guy up the stairs, and when she gets to the top, you expect her to be out of breath, because that's always the joke about a fat person running. I was cringing waiting for the joke at her expense. But nope! She's in a bigger body, but still in shape! She gets to the top and continues kicking ass! Loved that so so much.

I'm certain someone else has probably said this already, but to be entirely fair to The Incredibles, it was the villain who said the "when everybody is super, no one will be."

I loved this episode so much. I love every episode. Thanks for everything you both do.

I look forward to every episode of MP and bonus episodes. Audrey’s laugh is the balm that gets me through these really difficult times (the news sucks). This episode in particular was really illuminating, enlightening, and also heartening. I do want to know why Michael finds “Queer as Folk was not good” as I remember loving it at the time (as I was probably so thirst for content), and I’d love to know how I was blindsided. Appreciate you two SO much. Thank you for being the bright spot of my weeks!!

You cannot imagine my horror as an animator when I watched Wall-E. It was heartbreaking for me on many levels. But thank you for giving me Spy. That was really awesome. I truly thought long and hard about what you said about being "in service" and how many times when I've expressed opinions in my work people have shut me down so hard. I have no right to speak up. I'm just there for support. Being brown is another layer of that "service". It's shed light on so much as an artist and animator. Thank you Aubrey for your words. They're powerful to hear.

The Wall-E party was excellent, but I truly loved everything about your discussion of Spy. Another McCarthy movie that gave me deep joy is Life of the Party. There's a specific scene where McCarthy's character is at dinner with her BFF (Maya Rudolph) and they find out something amazing (I won't spoil) about her boy toy and it is truly the greatest scene of fat triumph that I've ever seen. I would love a watch along for that movie, but even just that one scene would do us all some good. Thank you both for all you do!

LOVED this so much!! Walle-e Totally lost me when they went to the ship. So pathetic -- and lazy writing, frankly. I LOVE Spy - like others, it made me feel seen. And I thought the "being of service" was a just a weird Midwest woman thing that I felt - but of COURSE it's not! Duh-Doy!! :D What a wonderful conversation - thank you!

Love that you’re covering Wall-E! I remember watching that movie around when it came out and being the only person I knew who fucking hated it.

Please watch “Fatso,” with Dom De Louise and Anne Bancroft—written and directed by Bancroft. Growing up this was our “family movie “ and I would love to hear your take.

I love Spy! I think it’s a genuinely funny and well done movie.

Spy is the movie I always recommend to people — I feel like it kind of came and went and it’s excellent. The footage of her going ape shit in the training is truly hilarious. Watching it again now!

Great episode! I’d ❤️more political analysis from y’all on kids movies! ❤️

Wonderful episode as usual! I'm curious if either of you have every watched the British TV show My Mad Fat Diary? I remember really enjoying it when it aired in the early 2010's but I haven't rewatched it. It may be the only time I've ever seen onscreen representation of a fat character not wanting to eat in front of other people because of the prejudice she knows she'll face. It also had a sweet romance and showed a thin boy being attracted to and in love with a fat girl The only other recent example of positive media representation I can think of is in Our Flag Means Death which has several fat characters and two of them are seen as being sexually desirable and one is in a loving and sexual relationship. There is fatphobic language used against the thin lead character but it's only ever used by antagonists that the audience is supposed to dislike

This was fantastic and summed up so well my thoughts on Wall-E! Would love to see an ep on Paul Blart: Mall Cop, it is not only deeply fatphobic but also its gender and consent politics are so messed up that I found myself getting so angry while watching

I just watched Spy for the umpteenth time on Monday! It's one of my comfort watches, I've never felt so *seen* in a movie before, because my understanding of the fat experience is that fat people are invisible unless a thin person is in the mood to dish out some abuse. There are a couple of slightly different cuts, and only one of them (the non-theater cut, I think) says that Susan bakes cakes for the office, which makes the cupcake necklace and Fine's "You love cakes!" make a little more sense and not just "hurdurr fat people love cake"...but it's still an absolutely appalling gift especially for someone who just saved his life.

It's also deeply gross how fatness is used as a symbol of literal over-consumption when it's linked so strongly to being poor in the US and UK.

I haven't seen Wall-E but now I feel about anyone who likes it the same way that I feel about people who think Idiocracy is brilliant.

10/10 was not just that director. The More than Tracy Turnblad podcast is story after story of how fat actors are consistently being cast as old people, the mom or caregiving character. This is a huge issue in all of theater.

i LOVED spy, saw it in theaters!! i remember expecting it to be pretty stupid, and it’s obviously goofy, but i was SHOCKED at how well done it is! been meaning to rewatch for ages. also big ups to aubrey for giving me something to talk about in therapy this afternoon… service… hoo boy 😅

I’ve seen Wall-E once and I’m hoping to keep it that way. I wanted to walk out of the theatre so, so badly. I didn’t know what to call it at the time, but it just felt so…wrong to see fat people treated that way. And it disturbed me that I was the only one who seemingly felt that way.

One of my favorite collections of short stories "Octavia's Brood" (a sci-fi anthology of stories inspired by Octavia Butler), has a story titled "Hollow" by disability justice advocate Mia Mingus. It's such a good antithesis to the ableism of Wall-E. It's short and I don't want to spoil it, but basically it is a story of disabled people innovating and creating community in outer space.

I really liked this episide! As another palate cleanser I would really love to listen to you talk about (maybe only the first season of) My Mad Fat Diary, back in the day I remember taking about it a lot with my friends so I’m sure there is a lot of discourse to be had about it. I mean I love it, and cried watching it, but there are a lot of things about it that seemed a bit strange at the time too.

i am CACKLING while listening rn because my boyfriend has gone on the same rant about plot holes in Wall-E’s world building that Michael went on 😂 if anyone mentions the movie he’s immediately like “WHAT ARE THEY EATING?? WHERE DO BABIES COME FROM?? CAN THEY GET OUT OF THE CHAIRS OR NOT??” we hate it for the fatphobia, ableism, and lack of a coherent plot line

Can we have an ep on Hairspray plz :) (the musical/movie musical)

I love Spy, a very comfort movie for me. Even as a fat woman, the deeper implications of the messaging she receives was not clear to me. Thank you for making it explicit to me. I love how it treats the fat character as not just competent but as someone who excels in an ostensibly athletic job. Love you both, thank you again!

It's not a film, but a terrible UK "documentary" series on YouTube called 'Junk Food Kids: Who's To Blame'. I sent you half an essay in Patreon DMs about it haha

I’ve never watched Wall E and everyone used to be so shocked I hadn’t. I’m in my late 20s and still have no interest so now I feel VINDICATED!

As a moderately fat (Australian size 18) woman I liked spy. Partícularly the assumption that I am defined by a love of food. I also loved how ridiculously incompetent Jason star ham was

Wall-E also has a lot of questions about gender tied into it. It annoys the heck out of transphobes to ask "why do you call Wall-e "he" and Eve "she" when they have no genitals? Ahuh because they're coded that way by dress/mannerisms/roles/choice? Cool cool. So not based on their genitals? Oh they don't have them? Ok so gender is not tied to it? Cool cool. So..." and watch their heads explode.

Fuck, that conversation about feeling like you need to be of service to thin people to justify your presence hit hard. You voiced a feeling I've struggled to put words to my whole life. Thank you for being vulnerable with us, you're helping so many people.

When robots are more humanized than fat people.

Thanks for sharing your stories and insights, Aubrey <3

I got into a big fight with my brother over the anti-fat messaging that Wall-E has about 2 months ago!! I had to rewatch it for a class and I had forgotten just how uncomfortable it was! Also, upon rewatch, I kind of assumed that the people on the ship were what was left of the extremely wealthy, since they could afford to leave earth and not need income, also I don’t remember there being many if any people of color onboard the ship… The cruise ship aspect to me had super dark class undertones… I also love Jason Statham’s character in Spy because he was what I assume all hyper-masculine action heroes would be like if they were to actually exist in the real world like they appear in movies hahaha Just incredibly narcissistic assholes who don’t see how anyone else could do a better job than themselves.

God. Wall-e came out when I was 11, and in the class of a teacher who zeroed in on me as an autistic queer girl who needed to be coached back to normalcy. I had already hit puberty, which he felt was a sign of too much processed food in my diet. I was also clumsy and slow to learn physical skills like bike riding, which combined with the former convinced him I was a fat adult waiting to happen. I remember him showing this movie in class and saying to me, “If you don’t correct, this is what you will look like, and this will happen to the Earth because of you”. He and my peers, following the example of their teacher, bullied me relentlessly about my body and what I supposedly ate. I spent the next 5 years battling a debilitating eating disorder.

I want Mike and Aubrey’s reaction to the anti capitalist masterpiece that is cars 2

It sucks so much that the second half of Wall-E is just fatphobia because the first part on earth is lovely :( EDIT: When I was in high school my fat friend drew artwork a lot of a Wall-E themed AU of a thing we both liked, entirely of the Earth parts of the movie, it was uncomfortable watching the movie together when we actually sat down to watch it and got past the Earth part. Sucks

Episode suggestion: weight standards at work. Where did they come from and how are they still a thing?

I definitely resonate with the issues surrounding the emotional burden that fat people take on. The complete invisibility that can occur. In high school, I visited my friend every Saturday she worked at a coffee stand (no one ever visited me at work). I asked if she wanted to hang out later and she said she couldn't along with some vague excuses about going to her dad's. Then she asked if I minded if she called one of our mutual friends while she was making my coffee and I said no. She got on the phone with him and proceeded to make plans for THAT NIGHT. The night she said she couldn't because she had to do something else. I have never felt more invisible. I always felt like the backup friend, but that's about when I gave up even being that. It would be another 10+ years and a complete burnout/mental breakdown before I could even bring myself to "burden" a therapist with my feelings.

I've also never seen Wall-E, and honestly I'm haunted by the bone stuff?? Like what bones did they lose and how did it have seemingly no effect on their ability to restore the earth? I have many questions about this relatively insignificant point

Aubrey, I would love to hear what you think of the movie "Kung Fu Panda." I think you would find it surprisingly delightful.

I remember feeling icky after watching Wall-E when it first came out. It’s one of the handful of Disney movies I’ve never re-watched. I do think Wall-E himself was very cute though.

I dont think Ratatouille is anti-critic, its more a critic, who was anti-participation trophy, learning about social inequity.

Thank you Aubrey for articulating the “acts of service” I’ve always felt I needed to portray as a fat person. I have always had a sense of this but hearing it was so eye opening. Having to be “of service” of others was how I got through high school and college. I also did some theater and was cast as maid, mothers and “Rosie o’dogwood” in a tree themed spoof. I felt like I needed to be the go-to friend for peoples emotional baggage and body image stuff all the time. Putting others needs in front of mine just to try and fit in and have people like me. Or how I over perform around people that i feel might judge me for my size. I’m a chiropractor and when I have a thin athletic male come in I feel like I have to really prove to to them thAt I know what I’m doing so they won’t judge me for my size. Even though I’ve been a doctor for 12 years! Also like how you were saying it is hard not to just start apologizing right when we meet someone. I have found that once I noticed I was doing this things have improved so much. So much to keep thinking about. Thank you! 🥰

This is a weird place to post this, but I need to tell someone that every time I hear "Methodology Queen", I think of my coworker Amélie. She's a literal methodologist working on the same survey as me for Statistics Canada. She's lovely and she has helped me out with French because she's actually bilingual and I know French a medium amount.

I'll also never get over DISNEYYY making a moving that's about anti consumerism and the dangers of mega corporations lol

I never fall asleep during movies/shows except for like 3 movies. This was one of them. I have tried multiple times and every time I fall asleep right after they introduce the fat people in space. I was always confused when i woke up what happened with that but apparently my brain does not care to pay attention and find out!

I really appreciate this episode. I saw it years ago, but I appreciate your perspective and now I see it in a much different light.

This was such a great conversation and I am learning so much about fat phobia and how ingrained it really is in our society in ways I’ve had the privilege to never really need to consider. Thank you! Also Mike’s reference to his multi-racial friend and the invasive questions he receives around his heritage really hit home for me. I’m a white American living in Canada and have never once had casual acquaintances or strangers ask me about my race/heritage/nationality but I have an adopted daughter who is not white (but is Canadian) and it is shocking to me how often we get intrusive questions from people around “where she’s from” and often coded in ways that people somehow think are less offensive. And they will not let it go and keep digging until they receive a “satisfying” answer.

This episode is SO SO good you guys, I wish it wasn't a Patreon only one so I could send it to my friends!

Oh god I guess we can add Wall-E to the list of super fun fatphobic movies you have covered that were actually on my school's curriculum when I taught science (the other one was Super Size Me because of COURSE it was).

But the bit at the end about what roles she was given in youth theater is actually a thing. The number of larger female friends who were the mom or grandma in high school plays because of their size is a pervasive circumstance. Theatre unsurprisingly has major size-ism issues, particularly when we talk about “types” for roles, like the ingenue - we start telling stories about who falls in love based on how they look, and they’re typically skinny and white.

Would y’all ever do a bonus episode about Dodgeball? Suuuuper problematic in so many ways but I do think it uses fatness/hyper vigilance against fatness is some interesting ways.

I enjoy most Pixar movies, but Wall-E’s intense fat-phobia has made me black out a lot of it. I hear other people talk about how sweet Wall-E and EVE are, and how cute his obsession with Hello Dolly! is… but mostly I remember flinching through all of the “these fat people are so LAZY and GROSS how could humanity do this to themselves” messaging.

I’ll never stop being furious that a college professor made us watch this movie as a class for our final in a Environment and the Human Impact class. I hope she’s learned enough to feel deep shame about that decision.

While I do enjoy Wall-E for the robot storyline, I also distinctly remember watching it in the theater when I was a fat teen (who was really self-conscious about my weight). When I got home from the theater that night, I immediately felt the need to get on the Elliptical machine for an hour, because I felt so bad about myself. Time has since dulled that shame to where I can watch the movie and enjoy the robots, but yeah… it was a rough first watch, for sure. 😬

I watched Wall-E when I was thin... back before chronic illness and weight gain. I realize now that the problematic nature of this movie didn't register with me then. I have these realizations all the time now as a fat person... stuff I just never recognized before because I wasn't the subject of the abuse.

Great episode!

This is a great convo. One thing that is also clear from a movie like Wall-e is that the filmmakers are clearly also making a statement that I think a lot of people believe, which is fat people are just mindless consumers in our society. That we are clearly not capable of making thoughtful long-term decisions because of our weight. Which is an infuriating pile of garbage to understand about the way society views fat people.

Wow thank you for sharing this review. I never saw Wall-E and now never will.

I didn't see Wall-E because of this review. Thank goodness for Slate (sometimes). https://slate.com/technology/2008/07/pixar-s-wall-e-sends-the-wrong-message-about-obesity-and-the-environment.html

NOT to take anything away from your conversation, I just thought this was interesting context. In the Wall-E commentary, the director talks about the choice of making everyone fat and disabled as literally infantilizing. They wanted the humans to feel innocent and naïve, and vulnerable. THIS IS ALL ITS OWN PROBLEM. And none of it takes away from the fatphobia, in fact it probably enhances it. But it's tied into the new-Eden themes of returning to Earth and having to toil for a new land of plenty (brought together by the biblical names Eve, John, and Mary.)

I was genuinely distressed by the casual fatphobia of Roger Ebert's review of Wall-E for many reasons, starting with my memories of (briefly) working at the Sun-Times during his tenure there, and of how kind and generous he was. By the time Wall-E came out, he was disabled, having most of his jaw removed due to cancer treatment and being unable to speak or eat, but the ableism of the movie didn't seem to have registered. Also, for most of his life, he was fat. Part of the shtick with him and Gene Siskel was that he was the fat one to Siskel's skinny one. I'm sad that he apparently internalized fatphobia to the point of not recognizing it in this film--or in his review.

I just started watching This is Us (early season 1) and have been noticing a LOT to unpack around how Kate was parented, her relationship to her body as an adult, etc. I’m sure there’s more they grapple with in later seasons but I would LOVE to hear yalls take om

Honestly I don't know if I can listen to this one. Growing up WALL-E really was such an intense source of pain for me lol. It's sad one of my best friends adores that movie and I'm always just like oh haha I don't remember much of it

I never saw Wall-E and feel so grateful to be spared now. Phew. I would love a discussion around how fat phobia appears in stand-up comedy. I think there's been a lot of news coverage about how comics shouldn't "punch down" or cover certain topics, but it never includes fat phobia. The Ricky Gervais special was in the news for controversial topics but none of those stories mentioned the fat phobic stuff that I saw.

Yeah, I know there were DEFINITELY some fat-acceptance blog posts back when Wall-E came out, but that was like 2008 and I can't remember where, because it's the reason I went 'Hmm, no, I'm NOT going to watch the cute robot movie". It's fucking EXHAUSTING because I have some friends who adore the movie.

Imagine how much better Wall-E would have been if they went with the “slime people” narrative. Or maybe just no human narrative at all?!

when michael said “ratatouille” i was like NOOO and had to turn it off for a sec trying to wrack my brain for why that wonderful piece of cinema might be problematic #remihive

ALSO if you have lost bone density after 700 years of your species being in space, YOU CAN'T JUST STAND UP LATER BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. You are either atrophied or you aren't!

The part out watching problematic media just for the queer storylines is so true! I watched so much problematic garbage just to watch women kiss!

What an incredible slap in my face to wake up to so much anti fatness in movies from Disney. I wish you guys would make this available to everyone given how many people missed this issue and would benefit so much from hearing it!

I would really love to hear y'all's take on Isn't It Romantic, which I personally think was underrated and hits a lot of the same notes as Spy but through a romcom instead of a spy thriller. And bonus: also addresses how romcoms flatten gay characters.

Aubrey, your reading of Spy was such an insightful and intelligent discussion of microaggressions toward fat people, as well as the conditioning we have received to see people in larger bodies as side characters available to provide acts of service, ego-boosting, or emotional upliftment without reciprocity. I could listen to you all day! It is truly disgusting how invasive people can be without consequence (that fucking guy projecting his own daddy issues!), and troubling how difficult it is to highlight the illness of the people who abuse fat people without it being turned around and weaponized against fat people and fat allies. On that subject, it irks me so much that diet and ED logic is still very much seen as sane, while it also works insidiously to erode the sanity of the people it hurts.

The theatre kid conversation is spot on. As a fat kid I always got cast as mothers and grandmothers even though I was 18. I mean sure, someone’s gotta play the part. But my weight always felt like *why* it was always me. Then when I went to theatre school in NYC, my professors were like “ok but you can’t play those parts professionally till you’re actually older so for now you get to be the comedic side character” but I wasn’t even really funny, sooooo…. 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪 hate everything 🙃🙃🙃

How about a watch of Brittany Runs A Marathon ? I was hoping it would be ~inspirational~ but I remember feeling so icky throughout the whole thing

I was such a fan of Spy when it came out (I was in high school) and looking back, I think it was just so nice to see a spy movie where the entire motive wasn’t about objectifying women, but actually having a femme character own her life

I never watched Wall-E because it gave me the “ick” vibe kinda the same way I felt about ‘Me Before You’ … unlike Wall-E there’s definitely critiques about ‘Me Before You’ being super ableist

Ahahah oh nooooo... I can't wait to listen and I'm afraid. I love Wall-E but yeah, the fat baby people are a problem.

Wall-E is robota-non-grata in our house since the only thing my 4-year-old took from the movie was that fat people need to sit down and can't/shouldn't do anything. So many talks later, we're still working on undoing Wall-E's damage as she tries to make judgements on what fat bodies can and cannot do. "Mom is fat and her body doesn't have any impact on that," is our new frequent refrain.

I adore the first 30min a of Wall-E and then I kinda tune out. I didn’t understand why people would lose bone density and get fatter, when they still have some sort of artificial gravity on the ship? It just didn’t make sense and I thought it was just dumb. It didn’t occur to me when I first watched it how fat phobic it was, but now I die a little when I see it. Can someone do a “robot only” edit. That would be great.

Thank you so much for this episode!! The blatant fat phobia and ableism within Wall-E is breathtaking, can’t believe that there wasn’t more about that in the culture when the movie came out and basically nothing out there now. The way the move characterizes humans on the ship as being both fat and stupid and bad for using mobility devices………. Just shocking that it got made that way, in awe

Aubrey I am with you 1000%, as the “fat best friend” for many years, my job was support system and relationship cheerleader for my friends. Partially because I felt I brought nothing else to the table, but partially too because my friends thought I could never have any real romantic connections so I didn’t need to talk about anything romantic myself. They could use the entire space of our friendship to vent about their crushes/hookups/boyfriends&girlfriends. I was just the vessel to vent to and not a person that was worthy of venting anything back.

Ok now we are going to need some L Word patreon episodes because it is a RICH TEXT. I have such a love hate relationship with L Word including the new series which is better but will probably still age poorly. I have chewed over this show with all the wlw in my life and listened to the whole To L and Back podcast and I still need more content.

I remember being the only person in my Disney/animation fan circle yelling about how awful Wall-E was when it came out. There was definitely buzz in fat activist circles about it (probably blogs that are defunct now). Another thing lost to time: Pixar made a fake website for the Buy N Large corporation, with ads and press releases and news, as viral marketing. One of the big through lines was about a Buy N Large mall that was essentially the size of an entire city. So big that not all of it can be maintained, and sections were abandoned. Buried in website was a story about activist groups that had taken over one of these abandoned sections and planned subterfuge against the corporation, and I remember reading that and thinking, fuck where’s that movie??

I LOVED Spy!! I think you're selling the Allison Janney character a bit short in this analysis. She puts Melissa McCarthy into the field in the first place because she finds training footage of Melissa kicking ass, confronts her with the fact that she's selling herself short, and cottons onto the fact that Jude Law has been using her skills to make himself look good. The frumpy cover identities though. There needs to be a sequel where her cover identity is Air Marshal.

This was such an important conversation and I hope you're open to putting it on the main feed one day! The discussion of Wall-E's politics and the People Of Walmart stuff (both things I unfortunately loved at the time) felt like a personal callout for my own former fatphobia. There's a lot of stuff from that era that I look back on now and I'm just aghast at what so many people, my teenage self included, were okay with. Also, as another multiracial person I have absolutely had the experience of people needing to know RIGHT NOW IMMEDIATELY what my ethnic pedigree is-- I'm a somewhat conventionally attractive femme so with me it usually comes from random dudes on the street thinking that's a great opener to flirtation. One time I was out with my sibling and our waiter tried to do it with both of us at the same time, saying we had an "eccentric" look. Sorry to infodump about myself but this episode really resonated!

It's been a while since I saw it but talking about the movie "A Matter of Size" could be really interesting. It's an Israeli movie about a few fat folks who are told that they have to lose weight so instead of doing that, they decide to not lose any weight and start a sumo wrestling league. In hindsight it's probably got some aged poorly cultural appropriation as well as some fat jokes but that was the first movie I remember seeing that didn't just preach that being fat is bad

Omg when wall-e came out I truly could not understand why people found it so lovely and hopeful. I sobbed full body tears in the theater after seeing it because it was so fucking dark. It also implies that as shitty as the world is now, we still have layers and layers of horribleness as a species to go down before we decide to save this damn planet!! Also, Jude law has a horrible American accent in every movie that he tries it. He ruined I Heart Huckabees for me.

Kind of weird request but if you guys ever watch Kung Fu Panda I think you would also say it's a rich text I'm working on a video essay about what it says about fat people and it is fascinating

I tried watching Wall-E ages ago, and could not get into it, and only made it ten minutes. Talk about crisis averted! I haven't watched Spy in ages, but I know what I'm doing tonight!

Not a movie, but HBO's Weight of a Nation documentary. I remember watching it when it came out. I don't remember anymore what they said, so not sure how embarrassed I should be for having watched it. 🤔

I felt like the only person on Earth who hated Wall-E so much that I’ve never been able to finish the movie. So wow did I laugh a lot learning about the second half because I have never gotten far enough to even see the people in it 😂

How about the Nutty Professor (Eddie Murphy one) coupled with big Mummas house. I find those movies not funny, just stupid.

I was about 7 when this movie came out… what was people of walmart? 😳

The part about feeling an obligation to be useful as a way to "make up for" existing: here I am listening at work, where I do precisely that all day long. 😂 Oh no. Well, file that thought away for therapy.

I think something to consider (maybe you address it I’m only halfway through) but Wall-E uses antifatness because to criticize capital and consumerism in any other manner would directly implicate the Disney corporation itself

“I don’t want to hear how my body is your worst nightmare!” ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

I put Spy on hold from the library

The theatre kid discussion really hit home for me. That was my experience in school shows as well, to the point that when I went to audition for my university program, the teachers tried insisting that I couldn't go because I couldn't miss rehearsal as Hattie the maid (minor character, slapstick + opening doors for more important people). The reaction when I got into my performing program was a loud "what? how did that happen?" in front of the entire class.

I remember when I first watched Wall-E and I couldn't understand why they acted that life on the spaceship was a dystopia??? There's no work, everything is egalitarian, there seems to be no capitalism, and everyone is happy. I was just like... isn't that a utopia? (also like on a space/scientific perspective you don't lose bone density in space you lose muscle mass so like??? why would their bones disappear???)

would love a Hairspray watch party if you can stomach watching a musical!

The way I almost dropped my phone trying to turn it down at GET FUCKED before it woke up my neighbors

I have seen Wall-E, and yeah. :/ But I haven’t seen Spy, and apparently it’s available on Disney+, which I just subscribed to, so this feels like kismet. Aubrey, your discussion of having to be “useful” to thin people hit home in a serious way…basically me in my twenties. 🤦‍♀️ So much good discussion spurred by this movie that I really should watch, it sounds like…

For me, Wall'E ends when Eve shoots off into space, as someone who loves minimal dialogue animated shorts it could have worked so well just as that (kinda like how I watch the start of up and then just turn it off also)

Brilliant! Learned loads, was entertained, was inspired. I bet someone has already suggested it, but I'd like to hear if you find the depiction of a fat person (Chrissy Metz's character) in This Is Us to be mostly useful?

Bless you, I’ve never seen Wall-E and I had no idea *how bad* that movie actually was. Also I was really nervous about doing a presentation at Uni and then this came out and I able to channel my nervous energy into rage ❤️