October Bonus: Estranged Parents And The Newspapers That Love Them

absolutely joined for this episode

My mom and I are estranged. I didn’t invite her to thanksgiving and she never called me back 😂

Honestly, I just want to say a huge thank you to Aubrey and Michael for this episode. I've been estranged from my parents for about 5 years, and the validation in this episode made me feel a bit less alone. Estrangement is definitely not something people choose lightly.

I really appreciated the point about the personal and private nature of these dynamics. I've been estranged (no contact) from my mom for nearly 20 years now. It's a relationship I grieve on a regular basis. The last thing anyone caught up in these tangled emotions and interdependenceies needs is a hype squad rooting for a particular outcome. I am so thankful for the therapists and close relationships that have helped me find empathy for me and my mom while exploring what relationship, if any, was workable. It's so important to find experts and loved ones that support your well-being, but don't take sides or bring their own agenda to something so fraught. Something else that strikes me about my elders, even my aging self, is how we get more self-reinforcing and rigid as we age. The real danger for older folks, in an algorithmic media environment, is this vulnerability gets exploited and views get entrenched through social validation. Social validation is comforting, but it's a hollow replacement for a functional, loving relationship. It breaks my heart that my mom and other's parents have chosen hollow comfort over the hard, but heartening work of mending and maintaining loving connections.

This was a wild ride. If I were to summarize my "estranged" mom's beef with me it's this: my not liking her more is a personality flaw of mine that I need to fix.

Super one sided episode sadly, though making valid points for one of the sides. Very clear neither has adult children or even close friends with adult children.

I went no contact with my mother this year for her failure to recognize my trans partner’s pronouns. She says it’s a culture war & it’s clearly basic human decency. She’s been rotting her brain on conservative Twitter since the pandemic, but has a long history of discounting my queer identity. One facet I find interesting in the discourse is that this idea that the partner is manipulating them and that’s why the estrangement happened. In my scenario, I tolerated emotional abuse and dismissal, but once that was directed at my partner, I found a line in the sand.

‘Missing missing reasons’ is so overlooked. Categorizing this phenomenon as a moral panic is right on the money. Thanks for this episode!

Thank you so much for this. As someone who has been completely estranged from my father for decades and who over the last few years has been low-contact with the rest of my family, it's such a deeply painful thing. The idea that this is something someone would flippantly choose on a whim is ludicrous. The way this gets covered in the media is so heavily one-sided, which only makes it harder. I really, really appreciate you doing this episode, and doing it so thoughtfully. And I laughed out loud at "he (Peter) refuses to put up a shelf." That was worth my Patreon subscription for the entire year. Love you both.

I hope you release this on the main feed, because I'd really like to share it with some people!

The people that need help and attention here are not the parents but estranged young people! They have a lot of the same vulnerabilities as children who grew up in care but in the UK it's very much a postcode lottery the amount of help you can get if say you leave home at 17 because of estrangement. You often aren't eligible for things like council housing which you would be a priority for if you were classed as growing up in care. And a lot of these young people should have been taken into care but weren't due to failures in these same systems.

56:00 Breathwork episode? 👀

This is amazing and made me yearn for an episode debunking "parental alienation"!

Conservative Christian Parent: Why oh why doesn't my child speak to me? Child: was it the latent misogyny, the casual racism or the blatant homophobia? I just can't tell........

As somebody who hasn’t spoken to my emotionally abusively parents in 15 years, I can’t wait to listen to this!

My mom acts like a victim, like I cut her off for no reason. She “did her best” 🙄🙄🙄. And talks about how it’s a trend and because I see a therapist. Funny part is, she was estranged from her mom. 🤨

Next do parents falling victim to conspiracy theories...

1:09:01 the laugh at the colin powell diet really sent me, incredible 😂

Have Aubrey's pronouns changed? Aubrey refers to herself as a guy sometimes and I don't want to misgender if they're now a they or he!

Had to gear up mentally for this one. My son (only child) is 28. If he told me that he never wanted to see or speak to me again, I would be making a beeline to the nearest qualified therapist to unpack where I failed HIM, not the other way around. It is fully unhinged to blame the person you literally molded with your own behavior from their arrival on this planet. My son didn't ask to be born. He owes me nothing.

“On the beach in Brisbane” is a hilarious sentence. - An Australian

This was sooooo good

Honestly, from what I remember about Oprah's childhood and personal life, she HAS been estranged from various family members.

My SIL went no contact with my in-laws out of nowhere shortly after getting married and it was confusing and painful for the whole family. Turns out her husband is controlling and doesn’t want her to have relationships with anyone who isn’t a “good Christian influence”, and we’ve found out that most of her friends have also been cut off. Now my in-laws are like “we’ve been reading that this is an epidemic” and idk how to tell them that they are the super rare case where they’re not in the wrong, because most of these cases of estrangement are justified on the part of the kids

Wait if it's 10% cut ties with parent OR child, isn't that double-countinf every instance?

An Ohio mention 🙌 But at what cost? 🤣🤣🤣

I will say, to Aubrey's point that she's never had a therapist use diagnostic language for someone in her life, my mom's therapist (after months of hearing my mom talk about my dad) gently suggested that they discuss the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, and that maybe it might be helpful for him to look into therapy. He absolutely meets diagnostic criteria, but it didn't lead to her cutting him out of our lives (despite his abuse)

You actually posted this on the anniversary of my partner going no contact with their family for being homophobic and abusive 😭 lobster too buttery etc

Please release this episode from behind the paywall. I think it would be really helpful for a lot of people to hear.

My mother, when my brother wasn't speaking to her for a year (for reasons he could not articulate, but fine): I don't believe in cutting family off Also my mother: has not spoken to her sisters for 30 years

Coincidentally writing from Brisbane, Australia, drinking dope coffee (well, tea); I do hope Doormat’s daughter is enjoying the distance (and not following her Mum in the news, what a NIGHTMARE). Moving away might be a pretty common method of soft estrangement- I have multiple friends where getting away from family was a big part of their moving motivation.

I’ve been flirting with going no-contact with my mom for a few years now, and this episode really resonated with me. We spoke on the phone today, and it was like she was reading a script provided by the worst offenders from this latest episode. Not sure how much longer I’ll stay in contact, but the end feels near.

this is so cathartic to listen to as i drive home in tears after visiting my mom who i'm unable to cut out of my life until my little siblings are grown 🥲

i cannot wrap my mind around $995 for 45 minutes to do what sounds like multiple years worth of history taking and assessing.

Okay the reveal that doormat mom cut her daughter off first made me cackle bc my mom did the same thing to me. She cut me off at least 3 times throughout my life because she was mad at me for setting a boundary, and the final time when she said “don’t speak to me ever again” I just said “okay”. That was 10 years ago and my life is so much better.

I loved this episode. Thanks for covering this!

I felt this one. My partner and I have tried to stick to neutral subjects with our low contact relatives, but they refuse to not bring up Trump/MAGA/MAHA talking points. They just cannot shut up about it.

Ugh didn’t know how badly I needed this!!!!!! No contact and sent many long detailed letters/many calls explaining before I made the choice. My trad cath parents didn’t reply for years and then reached out saying the only reason I could have done this was because I got pregnant and then had an abortion in secret??? (Literally never happened) Somehow this was a more likely explanation to them than me directly saying in writing “you have never apologized for physically and emotionally bullying me”. Grateful for this!!!

I truly want doormat mom’s daughter to live in unbothered peace, but I also want her side of the story so bad. I want to buy her a drink and hear the tea.

Wait wait wait wait wait Aubrey is talking about James Dobson in the first person AUBREY IS IT POSSIBLE YOU SOMEHOW MISSED THE EXCELLENT NEWS THAT JAMES DOBSON SHUFFLED OFF THIS MORTAL COIL IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD 2025 🤩

I love this podcast so much, that instead of listening to it at my usual 1.25-2x speed, I listen to it at .8 so there is more podcast.

Is…. Is it the leaded gas?

Without going into details of my own experience, I will just warn anyone with a strained relationship with a fundie Christian parent who is thinking of coming home for thanksgiving/christmas: they are in church small groups for this and having a confrontation/intervention with you is their homework. No matter how it goes, I’m sure they will feel very holy/righteous about it. My advice is to only see them in large groups for short periods of time!!!

Such a mystery why I stopped talking to my alcoholic dad who used to kick holes in doors and pick me up by my neck and scream about literally anything, then spent years trying to forgive him with no participation from him, then he kicked out my younger sibling and wanted my support for his decision to be make a traumatized youth homeless. Out of NOWHERE.

Yeah I got my CPS records and learned my mom was also an abuser... these parents are avoiding responsibility, most of them through religious "forgiveness"... but I believe in earned forgiveness through changed behavior so. It's just another DARVO attempt imo. Also I read 40% or more of mom's will ignore intrafamilial csa / abuse 🫠 and that's reported cases.

My dad showed up at my brother's workplaces unannounced several times. This is a deeply unnerving boundary violation, especially because coworkers are like 'aww that was dad' and you're like 'yeah please don't let him in here again'. I was always fearful of the same thing even when I lived very far from him, like any occasion really with some kind of public visibility. These estranged parents have a zombie-like quality to their senses of selves where nothing penetrates and no matter what you throw their way, they won't respect a boundary or concede 'defeat'.

And Aubrey's reaction to the fact that that woman wrote a dirty book was PRICELESS

He asked for specifics, and GOT SPECIFICS!

I spent so many years of my life making excuses for my mother and her terrible behavior and beliefs. She had a horrific childhood and adolescence, and I would tie everything to the trauma she survived. However, none of her trauma excuses what her own children then had to survive. So, we've been low to no-contact for a decade now (she'd occasionally wish me a happy birthday or happy mother's day via text, we live in different states). When I was diagnosed with breast cancer last June, I knew what her response was going to be if I told her, but I figured she should know in case it ended up being metastatic and terminal. Her response was: "I'm begging you to take Ivermectin and Mebendazole." I can't have anything to do with her because she's barely a person anymore; rather, she seems to be a hollowed-out shell capable of little more than repeating what her death cult tells her to believe. I can't tolerate a person telling me that Ivermectin is safer than Tylenol, that told me I was lucky not to die after getting a Covid booster, regardless of whether we share DNA.

If my dad had the capacity to provide “emotional resources,” I might still be speaking to him! 😂

I wrote a whole BOOK that, in painful detail, laid out why I couldn’t speak to my father anymore. It’s called “Don’t Yell at Her!” if that’s a clue about its content. I was really diligent about unraveling how I became a love addict after years of my father “breaking up” with me when I did things he didn’t like. After it was published, he wrote a scathing review of the book on its Goodreads. The review includes words like “shameful” and “drivel”. Hateful projections. I really feel for Amy Acton. I’ve always been a bit scared of coming forward because these Boomers have victim brain rot and they will come for the guttural. They don’t care.

The description of the "doormat" mom at the end sounds A LOT like my mom. Currently, I live on the other side of the country from her and am low contact and it's been SO NICE. Truly the happiest I've ever been, and the journey to get here has been so hard. I'm getting married next year and legitimately considered eloping to avoid having her at my wedding. It takes so much and so long to get to that point. It's never just one thing

I literally almost rear-ended a car because I was laughing so hard at "they don't make that in elephant size"

Can you please do an If Books Could Kill crossover about format mom’s book? I’m dying for this please 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

Thank you Mike and Aubrey for your work. Over the years your podcast has made me think, and helped support me in lots of ways. This new episode is just another way I appreciate your content and insight, it’s one to add to a long list. As someone who went no contact with her father and has not regretted it one day, I appreciate this episode. My Dad has expressed to my siblings (who still are in contact) that he is sad and does not understand why I cut him off. But he has not once sought direct contact since I cut it (other than the occasional postcards from the vacations he takes with his wife…). My husband knows not to even show them to me and just throw them in the trash when they come. I like to think the reason he doesn’t really reach out is because he went no contact with his own Mother. Or maybe it’s because he used to chase me around the house with a belt or a paint paddle before he beat me with one of those implements. Or maybe it’s because he knows he used to hold me down and tickle me until I was screaming I was going to wet myself. Or maybe it’s because he hasn’t supported me in any meaningful way since I was 11. One reason or the another, he’s not reached out. I guess I have a new thing to be thankful for. He has decided not to try any real form of communication with me.

Love this - really helps me articulate feelings I've been having about this moral panic both as a therapist and as a person who's mother is very upset that "none of her daughters will talk to her". One note: I got my degree from CIIS as did so many of my incredible colleagues. I have plenty of critiques about the school but I do think it was a really solid education. And certainly I came across kooky and problematic people there. But I wouldn't discredit it as a whole.

Thank you. It’s healing to hear the patterns are so similar. I’m no contact for 5 years after my MAGA parents took my ex-husband into their house after he was arrested/indicted (and eventually convicted) of strangling me in our home in front of our small children. There were obviously signs of garbage parenting before, but I couldn’t face it until then and kept imagining I could make them change and understand how much they were hurting me. It was never gonna happen. Your show has done more to help me work through my horrible childhood of endless fat shaming than anything else I’ve found (I’m one of the former six year old weight watchers survivors). Thanks for all you do!

I NEEDED this topic, thank you. Going through it with my own parent right now. Also, we would happily listen to the two of you talk about this stuff for HOURS.

It’s hilarious to me when people say this is a new thing. My dad and his siblings never met their paternal grandparents. My grandfather left home when he was about 16 with a clear message to his physically and emotionally abusive father that he was done with him and his toxic religion. I believe the tear was 1895

Not finished but this episode is making my skin crawl lol. No contact with my father for 20 years and just purchased a condo for my mother (also bad) so she could have affordable housing. Therapised as I might be, somehow, their behavior is never not shocking. Yesterday I informed her of my sister’s very small wedding plans months from now and she said “Oh, I won’t be able to get off of work.” 👁️👄👁️

1. Best bonus episode (and maybe best episode overall)??? 2. I have a policy where I take “breaks” from my family when I need to. I encourage my other family members to do it too. It helps get some breathing room when the relationship is strained without having a full-blown fight. 3. Huge miss not to sing Fiddler on the Roof/say “we’re not asking for your permission, just your blessing.”

I’m sure my dad has no idea why I’ve cut contact, but that’s only because he has refused to understand the approximately 200 times I’ve tried to explain it to him. It took literal years to get him to agree that I am, in fact, an adult (I’m 52), but he will still not acknowledge that my opinions have any value at all. I tried my hardest to find even a small bit of empathy within him that we could we build on, and then I found out that on the day of my older brother’s birth that my dad went waterskiing. I finally realized that he’s always been a narcissistic asshole and there is no amount of begging that I can do to get him to see me as a person.

This was so good that I immediately started playing it again. I would love the raw 5 hour conversation 😅

It also costs $1000 for me to talk to a stranger for 45 minutes and send an email to a separate stranger. I refuse, otherwise.

A friend asked me, a couple of years ago, how my parents were doing and if I see them a lot, since they'd moved near us. I told him, "We have dinner once a week." He said, "That's the Jewish version of going no-contact".

If you two want to record a few more hours, I'm desperate to hear more about the grandparent angle. Even 3,000 miles away I carry a fear that the estranged parent who tried to kidnap me from kindergarten decades ago would try to take my daughter now. I see headlines about grandparents rights legislation in this moral panic, and it's another point in the emigrate column.

Ooooof. This one hit me as I had just told a parent that I needed more accountability for their actions that hurt me. Definitely reinforced parenting decisions I will be making!

I came from a evangelical fundamentalist religion, and I’m still deconstructing after 41 years. Boundaries are not acceptable in circles like these because (I think) it sections off part of yourself and allows an inner authority to be in charge which makes a person harder to control by the religion. So absolutely obedience and taking no input other than the authority of the church is key. In the parent child relationship in religions like these, the parents are the ultimate authority of the children, and that never seems to fade with adulthood. It’s like an entitlement to control because they’ve allowed themselves to be controlled. To Mike’s point, it’s generational and it’s almost like it’s their turn to be the authority. Very interesting direction you took with this episode. It was really illuminating to hear you dive deep into this cultural phenomenon.

Going to a retreat next week with my mom to help “repair our relationship”… that woman DARVOs w the best of them. Let’s see how she makes the typed out hate mail she sent me somehow my fault 🙃

i NEED to know if aubrey and mike have seen this campaign ad running in Oregon about how the left has beCOME RACIST against wHiTe pEoPle 💀😅🫠 it’s wholly deranged and unhinged, and hard to believe it’s not satire: https://www.instagram.com/reel/De5cm9st3py/?exln=NWdsNWF4ZnBpcWJh

I have a very hard time explaining all of the reasons why I briefly went no-contact with my parents, and ever after, had to grey-rock them. It feels like trying to yell through interstellar static. I never expected to spend the final decade and a half of my parents' lives feeling estranged from them. We were close when I was little; their mistakes were mixed with a lot of love and care. This is probably true for a lot of people. They weren't Evangelical or even conservative, for what it's worth; they were Boomer ex-hippies and my mom was the child of Holocaust survivors, which is complicated. As an adult, once I had a child, I was suddenly flooded with rage at the ways my mother had treated me as a kid. I looked at my baby and couldn't imagine hitting her, belittling her, and calling her horrible names, all things my mother had done constantly. It took a little longer for me to understand my father's damage. The big turning point came when my child died suddenly, and their treatment of me became deeply inappropriate: yelling at me for still being traumatized ten months afterwards, screaming at me to let it go already. Of course there were plenty of shitty things that happened before that, but that was shocking. There was so much fucked up behavior. As with anyone in this kind of situation, it's too much to put here, but suffice it to say in involved a lot of extremely bizarre, mean, and narcissistic (am I allowed to say that?) behavior and heavy, belligerent drinking around me and my second baby. The final straw was the time my mother totaled our car with our kid in the back, then left my kid by the side of the road with a stranger and a cop to go to the hospital with a broken finger. My child was fine, but there was never an apology; in fact, my mother texted me a few days later to say that she was glad our car was trashed, and to blame the accident on my husband, who was miles away at the time. My father joined in with a series of angry and increasingly insane texts demanding to know why I wasn't showering my mother with sympathy. They never once asked how my child was doing (she was covered in scratches from slamming into the seatbelt, and remained terrified to get into a car for a long time afterwards). They never offered to help us replace the car. I blocked them for a while at that point. I did eventually confront my mother with some of this. I was too...I don't know, afraid? Unwilling? to confront her completely about the car accident. I never really told them how much they had broken their relationship with me. The pandemic happened immediately afterwards, which made it easy to have distance for a good long while. What really shocks me now is how destructive my mother was, even to the point of endangering my child's life and not acknowledging it. Listening to this episode, I realize that they both treated me like I was disposable. This sits uneasily with all the good they did for me, as well. So ultimately, I couldn't cut them off completely, but I did decide that I would only act out of obligation. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself otherwise. I saw them both into death in the past year, and spent much of that year handling their legacy of financial chaos and my dad's opioid addiction and dementia. They ended far from where they started, in all ways. I hope we all fare better. I sympathize with everyone here for what they've had to do. It's very hard to do, and to talk about in any nuanced way. I'm the last person standing in my family of origin, after my brother's death from drinking and their deaths a few years later. A friend recently told me I'm the R. Crumb of my family, which is very funny to me.

Oh Michael I feel like you are sick every other month! Get well soon sicky

This was a great episode and well timed for the holidays. I really wish it was a main feed episode so I could share it with my brother. (We are limited contact with our dad.)

Honestly I've been a therapist for about 9 years.. now a psychologist, and I would never encourage estrangement and if a client turned up and said "im going to cut off my parents entirely" I would be wanting to question that decision and consider if it really is the healthiest option or whether it is an emotional reaction that could ultimately hurt the client later on down the road. This narrative has been really annoying me especially blaming therapy. There might be bad therapists out there with questionable credentials labelling everything as narcissistic and advising cutting people off but this is basically the opposite of what properly credentialed therapists should be doing. We generally try to improve and preserve relationships for our clients and help them to manage difficult ones in a way that limits harm to them and maybe is more intentional than before.

I think the root of the problem is families communicating by email.

Shoutout to my best friend who gifted me a month’s subscription so I could listen to this episode<3 By the way the best thing I’ve ever done for my brain and body was going no-contact, sorry to Oprah but i’m different

‘Doormat mom: no, more!’ - god you’re hilarious, Aubrey!

My best friend went no contact with her awful, emotionally abusive mother 10 years ago after decades of trying to “make it work”. Now the mother has died, cutting my bestie out of the will, just to be spiteful. They are uniformly terrible people who will *never* admit they’re wrong or engage in *any* self reflection. I learnt a lot about these horrible parents from the Missing Missing Reasons blog that Michael refers to - it’s so good/informative: https://issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons/

I'm so happy you mentioned The Missing Missing Reasons! I was obsessed with that blog back in the day, it's such insightful analysis. 🙂

Unfortunately, there is a pretty big problem with therapists being willing to slap diagnostic labels on people who aren’t in the room now 🥲 it drives me up a wall honestly. This issue is still not what people make it out to be, like this estrangement issue isn't about therapists doing that but I fear many ARE doing that

The irony of blasting your estranged children online then wondering why they don’t want to engage with you is wild. With all of the insults these parents spew you have to wonder why they even want their “ungrateful” children in their lives. Maybe they’re mad they don’t have them as punching bags anymore.

Amy Acton deserves support, solidarity and a vigorous defense against the jaw-droppingly despicable smear campaign by her opponent and her POS mother. However, Acton herself should not get a free pass on her own decision to throw other vulnerable people under the bus. She’s one of an infuriatingly growing cohort of Dems who have found it politically expedient to jump on the anti-trans bandwagon this election cycle. https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/equality-organizations-struggle-over Besides being morally inexcusable, this is strategically bankrupt. Dems have been losing elections lately because they sold out the working class and supported genocide, not because they were “too woke.” Through-line for progressives and the left should be that NOBODY is disposable, not sexual assault survivors and not the trans community and not anybody fucking else, and we should tolerate zero under-bus-throwing from politicians of either party.

Okay but as a therapist who uses breathing exercises the breath-work bros are ruining this as a coping mechanism….

Thank you, as someone who is semi-estranged from one parent. In addition to the narratives playing in to cancel culture, conservatives are often increasingly anti-therapy. I have family who is pro-"biblical counseling" 🤢 only, and family who were previously pro-therapy have turned against it. They didn't take the care they should have with a very traumatized child, and believed they could just "disagree" and do things in the way they thought best; it was a bit "we need to get on with life and stop tiptoeing". This child was still under state custody and they got mad the therapist did her duty, they aren't used to being stood up to. It's a very sad story, but instead of reflection their response has been to become anti-therapy (and I suspect reading Abigail Schrier, ugh.) Also men upset therapists aren't telling their wife "keep him happy".

y’all do not know how good your timing was — i am getting married tomorrow (holy shit!!!) and it’s the first major life event since i’ve gone no-contact w my dad. i don’t particularly miss him — i’m extremely close w my mom and stepdad so i’m not lacking for parents — but it sucks to know that he’s going to be hurt by my not including him in this, even if it was right to do. anyway, this ep couldn’t POSSIBLY have come at a better time and i am listening on repeat!!

Can SNL please bring back Bobby Moynihan for drunk uncle? He would be all over this moral panic.

Guys, I needed this. I have revisited the Fox News Brain episode of YWA many times and my contact with parents became less and less. This makes me feel so not alone.

The estranged parents accusing a third party as the cause of the estrangement might be right. Sometimes you don't know what's acceptable until you have an outsider point out that the behaviour youve been on the receiving end of is not normal. You might not realise how poor or toxic your relationship with your parents is until you go to your partner or friend's family events and you see what healthy dynamics look like. The estranged parents have misdirected and scapegoated their anger over a spotlight being shone on their own bad behaviour onto the person or circumstances thay brought the spotlight into their children's life.

Boomers booming

Its so crazy to me whenever people act like this is new, because when i was 8 my dad had to go low/no contact with his parents after decades of lies, poor treatment, financial abuse. My grandmother would send us faxes (the 90s lollll) of her abusive letters to punish my poor parents. Meanwhile, my dads dad left England for Australia when he was 18 partially to get away from his abusive dad. Tale as old as time

I love noticing when people choose to quote verbatim versus when they choose to paraphrase. It would make sense for the "Doormat mom" to quote verbatim the email she sent to her daughter where she definitely totally didn't call her fat, and she probably could have paraphrased the email she sent to her daughter's fiance. The fact that she didn't quote the email that her daughter took umbrage with says to me that even she can see that she's definitely calling her daughter fat.

I’ve spoken to Joshua Coleman!! My estranged mother had him reach out to me! Luckily once I told him of my abuse he dropped the idea of me meeting with her again.

The “my feeling is larger than your recounts”, the “I’m a 100% no fault mother”, the “I’m ignoring your specifics”, the “your dad is turning you against me” all sooooooo on point

I actually scheduled a breakup conversation with each of my parent individually after running into an "I don't know why my daughter doesn't speak to me". I hadn't talked to them intentionally for quite a while but it wasn't in a way where I had told them I didn't want to talk to them. My mom actually said that she would like our relationship to be like those friends who you don't talk to often but whenever you get together it's like you pick up right where you left off. Anyways if anyone wants to talk about how kids should be allowed to legally sever the relationship to their parents let me know. My nightmare is ending up in the hospital and someone deciding to contact my parents.

Aubrey’s every sigh, grunt, “oh no!” and audio hair-pull soothe my soul….

💕💕 Thank you for your kind words. I hope when the time comes you’ll find peace.

Honestly scamming shitty parents by charging them $1000 an hour to pretend to listen to them may finally be how I afford a house 🤔🤔 email their kids like wow bro your mom is a fucking trip you were right

Absolutely the social pressure is a huge factor in not wanting to share with people that you aren’t in contact with a parent

I think the cultural shift is that for all of time children have been viewed as appendages of their parents that owe their parents forever. Whereas we have a more individual-first society now, which means we think children of any age are *gasp* individual humans and deserve to make their own (developmentally appropriate for their age) choices. Doing good things for someone doesn't negate bad treatment, disrespect, or abuse. The person with the power (the parent) has a larger responsibility to be mature and regulate, and own up to mistakes. Children deserve this treatment too.

Very cathartic to listen to this and read the comments of other folks who’ve struggled going low/no contact with parents. Thanks for this, would recommend this one for a main feed if you ever need a patch episode because I think it would resonate with other MP fans as well!

Me, listening to Aubrey say “Jiminy Christmas” to language and behavior that was treated as normal in my family. ::nervous laughter::

I also feel dummer, but I would DO IT AGAIN! Listening to y'all watch Tik Tok is so delightfully hilarious. I guess I have to start saying "sups" now.

My mom sent me cut of baby pictures of me for Christmas once and then wonders why we don't have a relationship. Um maybe it's because you've done fucked up shit like that my whole life!

My mom (good mom, good relationship) brings up estranged kids a lot and I was wondering where she was getting the idea that this is a big thing; now I know. It's always striking to me that conservative Christians think they are the only ones who care about family.

Take out the details about weddings and then that book could have been written by my mother.

I estranged myself from my father almost 40 years ago before it was cool. He all around sucked so no problem. It took me almost 40 years and two Trump administrations to realize my (comparatively) “safe” parent was actually worse. That and her accusing me of lying about ICE abducting people in my neighborhood because I am a paid Soros stooge or whatever the fuck she was on about that week. I resubscribed for this.

"The truth you're telling is the truth of your feelings and not the truth of what happened" slaps and I am going to steal it (I'm a therapist).

The idea that large numbers of people are suddenly cutting off their loving parents without considering the consequences is so laughable. Aubrey put it best: if someone did that, you would question if they were well. What I imagine is happening is what I have experienced myself: experiencing years of cruelty from someone who has never thought twice about it and finally hitting a breaking point. I chose not to spend my one life on this earth in deep pain and have never regretted it

I was no and then low contact with my father for years and it was on the advice of my therapist. Granted, this was after years of me trying to build an adult relationship with him and shrinking my needs and expectations smaller and smaller and getting emotionally hurt by him every time I interacted with him (from standing me up for lunch to making really awful sexual comments about my body and a pile of financial abuse of me). I kept saying "if this was anyone else I would have cut them out of my life. but it's my dad." Eventually my therapist was like "yes, he's your father and ita big decision, but have you considered protecting yourself?" I eventually let him back into my life because he was ill and in need and there were times when no one else could be there. Anyway, he's dead now and I absolutely don't regret protecting myself.

I will never estrange myself from this podcast

HS English teacher here. I thought, “Huh, just like ‘Fences.’” Then Aubrey SAID IT. I squealed with the pleasure of recognition.

Thank you for this episode! I feel so validated, and I want to have a big group hug with all the other listeners who have experienced the difficulty of cutting off a parent. ❤️

As a therapist who has worked with clients who are either debating or have finally cut off their parents, I can tell you it is nearly always the LAST thing they want to do, even if they know it would likely make their lives better. This is something a child does because they ultimately have to, not because they simply "want" to.

As the daughter of a narcissist father who walked out on the family and a neglectful mother, I could have listened to Mike and Aubrey talk about this for another two hours.

This ep is great. I am low contact with my dad and my 2 sibs are no contact. He has pulled out all the same excuses, dosn’t understand why, etc. the twist is, he is not conservative or Christian. He is just a crazy old boomer. He is super transactional with his approval and affection, and ofc physically abusive to me and one of my sibs. He’s also super mean. So like, no thanks. Quick to blame relationship problems on our mom (since deceased) and on us, ofc. So you don’t have to be a trumper to be unbearable.

I feel like ‘ungrateful adult kids’ are a thing, but they’re not usually going no contact with their aging parents, they’re leeching off them.

Today I learned the term "nut graf." Thanks, Maintenance Phase!

Someone tried to guilt me for not calling my mother on Mother's Day this year - stranger making conversation, I guess? Asked me when the last time I called her was and I said 2019. For some reason, *she* got super offended when I looked her in the face and told her my mom was dead since 2019 and I didn't find speaking with her ashes worthwhile. I had a rocky relationship with my parents and considered going NC several times. I never did - I live far enough away that a strict information diet worked well enough - but it's miserable watching all these parents say "I don't know why my kid doesn't speak to me! I just want them to give me more, better, and different reasons than the ones they've already given me!"

Im surprised Mel Robins took the position she did, instead of telling the parents to just "let them"

OOOF the part where they correctly name the link between "I got pages of abuse in response" and "I got a detailed answer that I didn't want to hear" is so real. Lived this in real time with my bestie's parents and it was this EXACTLY. When someone doesn't want to hear how their actions affect others, it doesn't matter now kindly or objectively you describe their behavior. They will name it as abuse or bullying simply because they don't want to hear it.

I have to thank you extra for this episode. You both continue to be The Best.

The entire concept of an estranged parent calling themselves a doormat is making my head spin 😭 how on earth are you a doormat to a child who isn’t talking to you? 😭

Savy Writes Books has a deep dive on the doormat mom book on YouTube. Totally worth the watch

I cut my mother out of my life because she didn't ever help me when she found out I was being raped as a child. I moved to other side of the world to escape the toxicity of my birth family and protect my children from them. She did this to herself

Thanks for this episode! 💙

The only situation I can think of where there might have been a mass of people going no contact with their family members due to manipulative therapists is the Satanic Panic and the Repressed Memory Movement, and I believe there were and are in fact support groups for living parents accused of Satanic Ritual Abuse and such. There has also been some criticism of those groups because of the chance that actually abusive parents could join or use their existence for cover. But this is also a complicated situation, because a lot of the adults who were convinced they had repressed memories of abuse were psychologically vulnerable due to unstable childhoods, including abuse and neglect.

These are actual texts I sent today about this episode: "I think I’m going to take an unnecessary shower right now so i can justify listening" and "I don’t think I’ve ever enjoyed anything as much as this podcast episode"

Totally endorse bonus eps of almost 2 hours—I could’ve listened for 2 more! 😍

Ugh, really validating episode… I’ve got estrangement double whammy (mom i “went no contact with”, but it was her stonewalling my attempts at family conflict at my gender identity) and dad who has functionally estranged me, largely over his conservative politics and my sexuality. I find these doormat creators so frustrating for so many reasons but esp bc it’s so maddening to see them act like they have no idea what happened when you have tried explaining it to them like they’re five, and they just can’t get there emotionally to understand. Not having a relationship with my parents has been one of the hardest parts of my adult life! It was a long and complicated decision to get there, and it wasn’t entirely my choice! I can have empathy, especially for my mom, about how hard this is for her too, but these groups are really just feeding a grievance machine. When I talk to my brother about it (the only one of her three kids she’s on speaking terms with) I unfortunately hear all of these talking points that she’s ingested to avoid confronting the actual heart of the conflict I’ve tried to navigate with her.

I'm only part-way into the ep so maybe you talk about it later, but I think a big component of why is happens more than before also has something to do with the internet and how connected we are today. I've talked this with my own parents, in that when they were young adults they maybe saw their parents once every 3-4 years, and it wasn't until my sister and I were born that they started seeing them more. In a context where you are only expected to be in contact with parents once every couple of years, the need to cut them off is soooo much lower than today when they could be sending you dozens of messages each day.

And, as a therapist, I agree. We focus on behaviors over anything. If the shoe fits 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️

Yeaaaaa my husband's parents still say they don't understand why we don't talk to them after years of communication outlining why. Some people just don't want to hear they've done something that hurt another person. I found the Christian conservative piece interesting because they are much conservative and Christian.

I winced when I saw the title of this, as I’m estranged from my parents. But of course, I should have known Mike and Aubrey would do a sensitive, sane, and compassionate job. And I wanted to thank you specifically for helping me understand a very bizarre comment made off handedly at work by a coworker about not understanding estrangement dynamics in families (the stigma is indeed alive and well). I was confused about why that would have come up casually- I didn’t realize that estranged parents have gotten so much mainstream media attention. She probably saw segment on cnn or Oprah! So anyway, thank you for the characteristically thoughtful approach and for helping me parse my workplace.

"perceived rejection just turns to static in their brain" 10000000%

As a 56 yr old who has been through estrangement and now am able to have contact again, and as a counselor who has supported both adult kids and parents in these situations, a major overlooked and misunderstood factor is this isn’t about punishing the parent. Usually it’s necessary to take a break (temporary or permanent) because the adult kid needs to for their own mental health. After I took a break from my mum for couple of years, I am much more able to take care of myself when she says hurtful things or takes up all the emotional space. It’s not that I think she does it on purpose. She was neglected and abused as a child, but I grew up having to look after her emotionally, and I would have died if I didn’t take space to learn to focus on myself.

Good to hear Calling Home and Whitney Goodman get a shout out, such a helpful podcast

Maybe it's happened before, in previous episodes, but the number of times Michael was about to queue up another fact or anecdote and Aubrey softly said, "Oh no," with palpable apprehension seemed new to me. Like, off the charts. Love the show and this was a great episode!

Thank you so much for this episode! As someone who has watched a partner struggle for years with going no contact it’s infuriating to me that people seem to think people are just casually making the decision to do this. My partner tried so hard to make it work with her parents and it was devastating to watch her get hurt by them over and over again. I’m so proud of her for making the decision to protect herself. I also have loved ones that I’ve had to pull away from in part because they’ve chosen to maintain contact with toxic or abusive family members. Going no contact often isn’t just an protecting yourself, but also about protecting the people in your life and choosing to strengthen ties with others. Also, as an amateur genealogist and history nerd the idea that this is somehow a new phenomenon drives me bananas! There are literally 5-6 men in my family tree who just straight up ghosted multiple wives/children and moved to a different state/country. I know that at least one set of my grandparents moved across the country in part to get away from dysfunctional family situations. I suspect that a lot of people who get labeled in historical discussions as “moving to seek opportunities” were escaping bad family situations. Before the late 20th century people could disappear so easily! Or even just normal moving away from your hometown and only having contact through occasional letters - we can’t know how many people were relieved to have reduced contact with families but I suspect it was a fair amount!

I'm so triggered😂😂😂😭😭😭. But it IS funny to me to imagine all of these turd parents complaining about how horribly they've been mistreated in a Facebook group while their kids are just off living their lives.

I'm no contact with my mom and last week she tried to reach out by sending an Instagram reel by a woman promoting her substance about rejecting the idea that you should cut ties with abusive parents. 🤣

DORRMAT MOM my obsession!! Yesss I'm obsessed with estranged parent tiktok (by way of good people reacting to them on YouTube) just so frustrating and heartbreaking and delusional

Would love for this one to be on the main feed ! I want to send it to so many friends.

Man, I forgot about Issendei's site. Haven't thought about it in years, had no idea it was so popular but I'm glad it is. She really pulls out and names the patterns. Thing is, people wanting to say this is some worrying new pattern: My sister and I have cut off my mom. I'm *sure* she happily agrees that we're just mindlessly following a 'kids these days' trend (we're in our late 40s/early 50s). But. My father's brother cut off HIS mom, like back in the 70s I believe. And all 3 of those siblings cut off their dad. My husband is Indian. Most would say that in general, India is a much more family-oriented society, with family estrangement much more stigmatized than the US. But his mom is also estranged from HER parents. Point being, this has always been a thing. Treating it like some new trend is just one more way to absolve yourself of responsibility.

Me: rocking the foundations of my family by going no contact with my mom The adults in my family: all of them moving away from home (most of the TO ANOTHER COUNTRY) in the 60s-90s and staying away from their families for at least a decade. It’s the SAME PICTURE.

I lost it with the shelf comment

As an estranged daughter AND a trauma therapist in Ohio, this episode is so cathartic. I’d love to see this as a main feed episode (or a main feed episode on a similar subject), because I often ask clients to listen to your episodes for an anti-diet lens, and I’d love to add this to the ones I refer clients to. Also, please send lots of good vibes for an Acton win!

really burying the lead that Doormat Mom wasn't allowed to go to the Australian wedding bc she is an anti vaxxer

I think Michael nailed it when he said something about parents not wanting to engage with their children as adults. Many of these parents seem to never feel like there need to change or renegotiate the relationship once their children are adults. They still expect their children to listen to their every word and "behave" rather than have independents lives of their own.

This was cathartic. Thank you. Did not talk to my dad for what turned out to be his last 6 years. He decided my spouse turned me against him. Which, lol. It's all so textbook! I don't even know if he was in these groups. But they all land on the same ideas anyway. His extended family talked shit about me at his viewing. I held my tongue about all the reasons they wouldn't get and would refuse to understand. Keep your fond memories of him. You're welcome. ANYWAY great ep; those who've been through this, you're not alone.

Anyone I know who’s made the decision to go no contact with their parents(or entire family) has AGONIZED over the decision. In my experience, this isn’t something people do on a whim, even if it’s a wildly abusive situation and everyone around them urges them to do it. The thought that anyone would read a subreddit or blog, shrug, and say “bye!” is entirely ridiculous, not to mention dismissive of the reason that person goes NC. *screams in Aubrey*

As the mom, a (aw fuck me for even typing this: Boomer) who was abused as a child, has been in therapy for ages and tried my absolute best - this topic makes me queasy. Hardest thing for me? Running into parents and her peers who ask me about her. I tell them where she lives, say she's living her best life and smile. They say (jesus) "That must be so hard! You two are so close!" (Context: the thing that broke us apart? "We haven't been close for 16 years!" I was quite literally stunned.) So, maybe she can find someone else to listen to her nonsense and pay her bills. Bonus: she's no longer telling me how I can "look better" with laser treatments and weight loss!

First, the funny part: I was sitting in the exam room at my eye doctor's waiting for my contacts to settle, passing the time with the episode, when "I'm not calling you fat, I'm just saying they don't make that in elephant size. " hit. Needless to say, the whole damn office heard me howling. Then the more serious part: I'm not a blunt person at all, so this might be my time to shine. For all the "but you only have one parent/life is short!" soup forks out there, here is my experience. My low contact/estranged Father died in January, and I actually got closure. I didn't feel particularly sad or relieved or regretful or happy. I felt at peace that there was nothing more to do or be done. It was over, and I've moved on.

Therapist here… just, no

From 1:28, I was thinking about the long distance move being the old estrangement. My brother went to college in North Carolina, about 500 miles away, then moved to Los Angeles, about 2700 miles away from our home in New Jersey. That was how he did this. He came back when he needed money, then stole money from her, and I was the go-between because essentially neither of them communicated with each other. We were both estranged from him and he developed an alcohol problem as well (he also had two brain injuries that were not adequately treated. It was a tragic downward spiral actually. He had his reasons for estrangement I don't think he was wrong in that, but I also don't completely agree with his approach. My mom isn't easy to deal with. She had a traumatic childhood and was not the most emotionally available parent. She does not understand boundaries and I think she sees me as an extention of herself. I don't think she's emotionally mature enough to see beyond what feels like emotional protection for her. She's unwilling to heal her own trauma and at her age now I have no hope of her changing.

My favorite insights from this bonus ep are those toward the end that look at inter-generational family trauma/ family systems. THIS THIS THIS! In addition to WWII and Korean War mental health issues that affect boomers, there are still those of us who have parents/ grand-parents who are from the Silent Generation that came of age during the Great Depression. I'm 50, and my parents were both Silent Generation. As an new adult in my 20s I couldn't afford long distance phone calls, and my parents never fully adapted to texting/ smart phones/ social media. My husband is 3 years younger, both his parents are peak boomer, and has a completely different relationship with them-- several texts throughout the day. 2x a day phone calls, etc. Great episode!

I wonder how many of those estranged parents calling their children Machiavellian, narcissistic, psychopathic, etc for going no contact, already believed that of their children before? I’m an estranged family scapegoat, and what helped me finally walk away was realizing that there was nothing I could do to change the family narrative that I’m inherently bad, that I cause all suffering, that I am always to blame when something goes wrong, and therefore I deserve punishment and neglect. I realized they wouldn’t change their minds, because scapegoating me benefitted the dysfunctional order of the family. It meant no one had to reflect on their own anxieties and shortcomings, and could instead could externalize them onto a child who couldn’t object. I’m definitely projecting, but I wonder how many of those so-called “narcissistic” children were the scapegoat, and their estranged parents are still managing to use their children as scapegoats, even without the children present.

You guys. I’m only half way through and need to share this with basically everyone I know. I’m 60 years old with a fundamentalist Christian mother (OG 70s James Dobson flavor). You completely nailed it. Can this episode be moved to access for non subscribers? The world needs it. I needed it.

I've been meaning to sign up for Patreon again for a while - and signed up SO fast when I saw the topic. (Not estranged, but might well be if I hadn't moved across the world/my parents naturally didn't approach the relationship as quite a low contact situation, so I take an interest!) SO many good points and such a comprehensive breakdown. One thing it got me wondering is why these people don't seem to address *why* there is this desire to cut them off - I think at one point the word 'temptation' was used. The idea seems to be that people are being encouraged or given permission to cut their parents off. But people could 'encourage' me to cut off my sister and I'd just think they were utterly bananas because we get on really well and so I don't WANT to. But the narrative seems to be that 'OF COURSE loads of people would love to cut off their parents but they just shouldn't be allowed to'. Absolutely wild.

sure yeah i’ll start this right before going to therapy. what could go wrong?

The travel restrictions during peak pandemic disrupted a loooot of codependent dynamics with parents 🙂‍↕️

Ha! Just this week I got a text from my mother about how "apparently interacting with parents is not important to you." Well...yeah. Thanks for noticing! 😂 (Oh, you DIDN'T notice because you send me to voice mail when I call for your birthday, and ignore my text and emails, and suggest that maybe I *don't * need to stop in for a visit when I'm in the area, uninvite me to your 60th anniversary party...and so on? Ohhhhhhh....got it. I keep forgetting that absolutely everything else in the world is more important then I am! 😂 )

DELIGHTED that y’all are tackling this topic! When my bio father was still alive, I did what people now call “low contact”, or putting him on an information diet—I didn’t tell him not to call, and I picked up when he called me, but I didn’t call him; I sent him cards on his birthday and Father’s Day, but I didn’t write him letters otherwise; I thanked him for gifts he and my stepmother sent, but stopped forcing myself to keep the gifts around. (Both of them were astonishingly bad gift givers, like my stepmother genuinely thought I would love the cut glass candy dish she bought in an antique market in Prague because it came with a creepy story about maybe being recovered Shoah loot???? The RELIEF I felt when I allowed myself to yeet the haunted ugly candy dish !!!) If I had felt like it was okay to actually cut him off, I probably would’ve done it, and it would have been better for my mental health. But I did what it seemed possible and permissible to do, and that was SO MUCH better than continuing to one-sidedly give my energy to improving my relationship with a dude who had clearly stopped enjoying my company when I hit middle school age. On the plus side, my father’s parenting choices gave me an excellent mechanism for evaluating my own. If i ever answered affirmatively to the question “is this something my dad would have done?” I knew never to do that thing.

Thank you so much for covering this. I have noticed this shift and it always landed with me as MAGA and reactionary but couldn't quite put my finger on it. The missing missing reasons is brilliant and I think Mike's description of the static that prevents them from processing the information due to their emotional experience is 100% accurate. I have experienced that static myself, not with my child (I don't have any) but in interpersonal conflicts where I wasn't able to set my own emotions aside at the moment they happened. It is a human reaction to the pain of rejection, but the entitlement and emotional immaturity of these parents prevents them from revisiting the information when they are more regulated. They are either never regulated enough, or just believe that their children are supposed to be subservient and have therefore abused them by even trying to push back against the relationship dynamic. I was fully estranged from my parents for 2 years. Their reactions were so much like the parents you've showcased here. I am not diagnosing my own parents here but the thing that describes it best is unfortunately called The Narcissist's Prayer. It was one of the most painful experiences of my life to really try to connect with them and be met with such hostility, entitlement and dismissal. I have personally decided that the guilt was too much for me even though I understand rationally that I don't have to feel it, and I've decided to let them back into my life in limited amounts and under my rules. I have given up on trying to make them understand something they seem genuinely incapable of understanding and instead focus on enforcing boundaries without any explanation. It sucks though. Sometimes I feel like I am betraying myself by not forcing them to try harder, and sometimes I feel guilty for pretending I am over it way more than I am. Having a bad relationship with your parents is just hard either way, whether you are choosing estrangement or contact. Conservatives can suck the boner they have for hierarchy.

haven't even listened to the episode yet but I saw the run time and said "almost two hours? Aubrey and Mike, you shouldn't have" aloud in absolute delight

I am not estranged from my children but I have had conversation where they have told me the ways in which I missed the mark or hurt them or fucked up and while it was incredibly hard to sit with it and hear it, the transformation in our (already good) relationship was significant. Our relationships have deepened because I was able to get out of my ego, inspect how I impacted them and make amends as best I could. So many of these parents are missing out on so much by being unwilling or unable to feel the pain and move through it. Also, I'm a mental health therapists and we talk about boundaries all the time in sessions but I have never told a client to cut their parents out 😆 I would never... thats not my place or business!

Okay...so, Bill Doherty was one of my professors in my therapy Master's program and I can almost guarantee you he was talking about this in general and NOT saying therapists are recommending NC because of Tik Tok. As a marriage and family therapist, the level of severity the situation would have to reach before I recommended going NC would be beyond what people even imagine. Now, if a client told me they were going NC with their parent(s) that would be a serious conversation encompassing the wanted and unwanted effects of the decision. Edited to add that there ARE situations that warrant this and I am not judging people who choose this. There are so many valid reasons for going NC.

"you're not invited to my Australian wedding" is my new vocal tick

As an adult child who experienced this phenomenon TWICE (once my own parents and then later my partners) I commend you for hitting every single beat. It's baffling how boomer aged parents center the narrative around their feelings so consistently. Both situations I dealt with were so different and yet, in hindsight, driven by the same things, ultimately. What a relief to hear rational people I respect talk about this with such empathy and nuance. It's true that in real life, even the most left leaning people are uncomfortable when they find out how hard our situation has been with our families. The stigma, although better, is still really, really stark. Love you two!! 🫶🏼

It's wild that there are people still so hung up on no-fault divorce that they bring it up to explain why other things are bad.

Note to all moms, “You look so beautiful!” is the appropriate response to all photos of your daughter in a wedding dress. Even if it is a crop top ala Scheana Shay or that dress from the Guns N’ Roses video.

I gave up on my dad a few times. Last one was when my oldest kid was 2. We got on the phone and my dad started going on about his efforts to get drug laws declared unconstitutional. Great project, wrong person. Anyways, my 2yo was listening to grandpa rant and then just hung up the phone and went back to legos or whatever. Chef’s kiss.

OH and I became estranged from his Dad & Step-mother after a row, but it was *them* that stopped communicating, not us. We gave up in the face of silence. (Though admittedly it wasn't exactly a loss, as we found them very hard work and indeed as Michael suggested later in the show, it was a culmination, not a one-off). I am 100% certain that the two of them a) blame *me*, (when actually it was OH who was adamant he'd had enough) and b) "don't know what they did wrong". If they're in a relevant Facebook group it wouldn't surprise me. One thing we noted. OH's Dad has, at one time or another, 'fallen out' with an awful lot of people. Both of his other children, his best friend from school (to whose New Year party he went annually, until 'something happened, he doesn't know what' and he wasn't invited back), and many more. It's amazing how he knows all these unreasonable people. Almost as if he's the only one marching in step..... (It doesn't help that he likes to think 'on paper', so has a habit of sending people letters/emails to say what he thinks!)

Once we got to the Covid wedding story I’m like aha! The reality is it’s almost always the parent’s choice - they choose no relationship over whatever the boundary is. This is actually what happened with my abusive parent except in reverse, when it was clear we were headed toward no contact she freaked out about that and suddenly was magically able to understand and follow my boundaries. In the current “no contact” era people often are really surprised that I’m not but it really is that simple most of the time. And that’s why it’s so f’ing tragic - if anybody reads this whose parent wasn’t willing to do that for them, you have my whole heart going out to you.

I know this episode was coming based on Michael's recent blue sky activity. Though I expected it on IBCK lol

My wife is the actual patient saint who helped facilitate her parents deconstruction from homophobic evangelical to posting about supporting trans kids on Facebook level ally parents. It took a lot of time, conversation, information sharing, 3/4 kids being queer, 1 temporarily going no contact for a few years, and not attending church during Covid. However, the most important component was that her parents legitimately care about their kids’ feelings and wanted to listen and understand. You can’t reconcile with someone who values winning the fight more than having the relationship. We are lucky to have a good relationship with them now, and still have minimal limited contact with extended family members who have not changed their tune (a decision her parents support and defend). I don’t know any other queer person in real life with this type of story, but I know dozens who tried for many years before choosing no/low contact. It’s literally never “for no reason.”

As the daughter-in-law whose "fault it is", this episode is so important to me.

As someone who lives in Ohio and had a brief period of estrangement from their parents, this episode is so validating

Love that the 1970s “divorce epidemic” is lumped in with this. First women decided they were allowed to have opinions and now adult kids are the acting the same way. No wonder it makes the Fox News crowd mad.

As an adult child who is no contact with a parent, waking up to the notification for this episode got me SO stoked

Yeah, I have also cut off a parent. We had a very shallow relationship for years. In retrospect, a lot of the issues we had were from him treating my autistic traits as willful disrespect instead of my trying to clarify things so wouldn't get in trouble. The final thing came in 2016 when Trump won. I called him in tears to ask why he voted for that man. I spent 7 months trying to get him to actually give an answer to that question. Just something. I get no politician is perfect. If he could have had a talk about what he was going to do that made the bad things worth it, or what Hillary was going to do that made Trump's downsides worth it, or even why he thought my information about the downsides was bad, we could have kept a relationship. But he didn't respect me enough as a 34 year old adult to even have a conversation with me. So I was done.

Peter and the shelf making a surprise appearance is my favorite part 😂

While I have a decent relationship with my parents, I've cut off a family member and it was an unpleasant, painful process. The way my family is, there was no way to not lose contact with the rest of my mom's side of the family so now my family consists of only my parents. Why these a-holes are acting like kids are doing this like it means NOTHING to them is beyond me.

I'd be really interested to understand the intersection between the liberation of women and "going no contact", particularly because of the conservative Christian aspect of the estranged parent group. When I look at family dynamics in my extended family, not so much in the still living generations (Boomers and younger), but in the generations immediately before, it is very obvious that it was entirely socially acceptable for the boys to walk away in various ways (move to an industrial city for factory work, go into the military, get on a ship going to Canada for work, etc) and essentially vanish from their parents' lives. One of my great-uncles walked away at 14 (school was not compulsory past that age at the time) and only kept in touch with his only sister (my grandmother) right up until he was in his 70s. He never spoke to his parents or his older brothers again, and told my grandmother he would cut contact with her if she revealed to them that she was still in contact with him. But my grandmother never had that option, really, not as a working class woman, even though her parents did not treat her any better than they treated her brothers. Eventually her only escape was marrying someone from a city 30 miles away, which in post-WWII Britain was far enough to go low-contact with almost no effort. But she was never allowed to go completely no contact, because her parents' concerned friends and neighbours would pop up and tell her how sad and lonely her parents were, with the kind of unstated certainty that as a daughter, it was her job to care for them in a way that was never expected of her brothers. So I wonder if there is some extent to which women being *able* to walk away from family members these days fuels some of this estranged parent drama.

I really think this is an episode that needs to be on the main feed. It's very informative and really good.

I've seen so many people NOT discontinue contact with toxic family members and the horrors it puts them through. My best friend of over 20 years did have a therapist suggest considering no-contact with her parents, but that was because they just never stopped abusing her. Her father stopped beating her when she was big enough to fight back, but both parents continued to mentally abuse her for decades. Just constant put downs and manipulations. That bit about the mom mad her kid had a good Christmas somewhere else, that's her mom all day everyday. And in the end it was her mom that stopped talking to HER (and her grandchildren by proxy). No doubt waiting for my friend to give in like she usually did and reestablish contact, but after 38 years of verbal assaults she just... didnt. But I bet that's not how her mom tells it. My cousin tried to maintain a relationshiop with her mother after she took the side of her long time boyfriend that was trying to sexually assault her 13 year old daughter, mostly because of her two younger brothers that she ended up having to forfeit growing up with. The audacity of people to claim their kids dont talk to them for "no reason" really galls me. There's almost always a reason and its usually the worst thing you can imagine.

couldn't be happier for a long episode, I need it today!

Maaaaan this one hits close to home. I had to go NC when we told my parents our youngest kid is trans & that we were supporting them 100%. They called us groomers & all sorts of shit. But I’m sure they latch onto this narrative that I’m ungrateful & it was out of the blue 🥴🫠

Sorry, you're going to get several comments from me on this. For this "therapist" to claim that he can gather all of that information and make an accurate assessment in a 45 MINUTE SESSION is, as Aubrey likes to say, kookoo bananas. I do 45 minute sessions and it often takes more than one session to get a thorough family history on a person. Also, it is COMPLETELY unethical for him to insert himself into this dynamic by emailing the child without their consent. He has not heard their side of the story. He has not met them in person. He has gotten their parents biased views of that child and is now working with the parent to manipulate the child. My degree is specifically in social work and the value of self-determination is literally in our code of ethics. My job as a therapist is not to guilt someone into doing what I think they should do. His job as the therapist is to help the parent process their grief, build healthy coping skills, and try to help them understand and take responsibility for whatever part they played in this. He cannot even begin to have a full grasp of what has gone on in 45 minutes, not to mention without hearing from the other side. And he's charging $1000 for this!!!!!!!! IF he is actually still licensed, this is part of why the licensing boards are kinda bullshit. For one, they are rooted in white supremacy and trying to keep Black people out of the profession. Two, the fact that I can no longer work with a person, no matter how long we have been working together, because they moved across a made up line created by colonizers is ridiculous. And three, the boards tend to punish the people who are trying their best but didn't dot an I or cross a T and let people like this guy go around harming people loudly in broad daylight. There absolutely does need to be accountability for us as therapists for when we cause harm but the licensing boards tend to do a piss poor job because ultimately they were created to protect and uplift cishet white men. 😅

Okay as someone who is being emotionally abused by her parents who REALLY ARE TRYING THEIR BEST AT THE SAME TIME, I didn’t understand how much this news trend upset me until now. I think I’ve been trying to actively ignore how often I see these articles. This is a digression but can someone please explain to me what is going on at the Wall Street Journal? Earlier this year there was this LONG ableist trash article about people who use the wheelchair access offered by airports. Isn’t the WSJ supposed to be like an economic news source? How did they start churning out this right wing flavored opinion column sludge like the NYT?

Boomer parents saying “My kids cut me off for NO REASON” has the exact same energy as men saying “The divorce came out of NOWHERE”

Discovering how fucking common “mom sides with their kid’s sexual abuser” is in estrangement narratives was a gut punch I spent an entire decade trying to process. There’s something about the deep shame of that situation the mom can’t process so it gets displaced into the kid who becomes the family scapegoat for the crime of revealing harm. I try to remember that historically, the scapegoat (which was an actual physical goat) gets shamed and driven out, but gets to live. The goat that stays gets slaughtered.

"You only have one mom/dad", yeah, but they're the reason I wanted to kms when I was 8. Some people really cannot fathom how abusive people can be to their kids.

“Honest to christ I could talk for so fucking long about this” honest to christ I could sit here for several more hours listening

I'm still listening so you're probably going to mention this, but as soon as Oprah talked about the 80s & 90s, I thought : there WAS nowhere to discuss this then. Apart from with your friend group, who probably already knew all about the shit your parents had done. Of course people used to stop talking to/seeing their parents. They always have. Depending on how far back you go, communication was harder, more expensive and pretty much expected to be intermittent. For example, at university in the 1980s, I hardly ever phoned my parents - it cost too much. I wrote a letter occasionally and I went home a few times per term because I was lucky enough to be only about two hours travel away. In earlier decades, moving to Australia (as in the example given) pretty much meant going no contact. Air fare was prohibitive for most people and even letters cost a lot - that's why flimsy airmail paper existed. So you never had to SAY you had gone no contact, because you just communicated intermittently anyway.

So glad to hear a reference to the Calling Home podcast, she's been doing really great work on debunking these "trends" in therapy

Wow, I have thoughts! If your adult child is *actually* a psychopath, then how did them cutting you off ruin your life? Also, from experience, when this type of conservative boomer says that their children were hurling accusations and calling them names, my bet is that they were actually pointing out things that their parents said or did that were racist, transphobic, abusive etc.

Barb and her 5000 followers entered the chat iykyk

The other thing I've been seeing is that the "my irresponsible ungrateful child" narrative dovetails COMPLETLY with the far rights intent to destroy Medicare. There are laws on the books in some states from pre Medicare that an adult cannot "abandon" their parent and can be billed for the aging parent's care, even after death. I don think that was the conservative intent, but it fits well fo them to use.

I've been estranged (no-contact) from my parents. When my mom was dying a few years ago, we were able to reconcile enough that I felt like I did what I needed to do to be ok with myself when she was gone. My father. . . It's been 25 years since we last had contact. It was a long process and a lot of tough decisions. I worked with a therapist, tried to have conversations, wrote a letter outlining my reasoning, moved across the country, and finally had to change my phone number and go no contact. I have forgiven him from a distance (thanks to two more therapists and time) but that doesn't mean I want him in my life. To anyone who is considering it, you're not a bad person. You're doing what you need to do for your mental health. If you have the resources, get some support (and keep looking if you don't find someone who supports estrangement as a possible option).

I have so many things I want to say about this, but I'm a therapist and the idea that someone would cut off their parents because I told them to (which, to be clear, I absolutely would not) is ridiculous. I can't even get my clients to do 5 minutes of homework between sessions, nevermind do something as complicated and difficult as cut off a family member.

I think “historically” is an interesting idea in this, because historically we didn’t have cell phones and the internet. Low contact was, in recent history, letting the house phone ring through to the answering machine and calling back when it was convenient. Prior to the answering machine, it was only answering and calling when you wanted to. Prior to cheap/free long-distance calling, it was moving to another state for work/marriage/school and settling there. Prior to phones, it was moving away and sending the occasional letter. It’s only in the last couple of decades that there’s been an expectation of constant availability, and I think that has a lot to do with the explosion of parents complaining about being cut off. In the past, low-contact was possible because of physical distance and modes of communication. Now it’s all or nothing, because the parents are more and more insecure about any boundary that means less contact.

Listening to this when it’s about me and my parent like 👁️👄👁️

I’m still listening, but I hope this gets into this all being a ploy to normalize entitled and insane behavior to make DJT and others in power seem more reasonable. Like it can’t be unrelated that news and entertainment platforms are giving these people such a platform all the sudden.

This stuff has my mom, who is not perfect but is lovely, worried I’m going to cut off contact out of the blue. I’ve given her no reason to believe that will happen, but because these parents claim to have been blindsided it instills this irrational fear! Now my dad on the other hand… he should be worried.

I was gonna say did MP read my mind? (My abusive mom called me last week to tell me she has cancer) and saw so many sad stories in the comments

The story of Peter and Amy was so sad. Peter tried so hard for people who didnt give him %5 back. I hope they are living a beautiful life together without that judgemental family

The shelf will never die and never be put up!

I needed this! Always great to hear you guys weigh in on a topic where there has been a ton of stupid discourse. I think my in-laws might be among those who think they were cut off for purely political reasons. Some of that is because the behavior that was unacceptable to my partner (and me) was related to their politics. For example, my MIL (when she learned that we planned to give our kids my maiden name, rather than the last name of my FIL to whom we were never close) said this was evidence that I was planning to take my kids away and not let my husband see them. I think her political beliefs influence her views of what is and isn’t appropriate regarding naming traditions, but the issue in that interaction was not just her political beliefs! I also think that vaccination issues really did accelerate things for a lot of people. I know a lot of people who had to set boundaries about unvaccinated family members being around little babies, for example. I am one of them. And I think that’s a situation where maybe the estranged parent thinks it was a political issue, but the estranged adult child thinks it was an issue of them having to set boundaries to keep their kids safe. I definitely think it relates to the love of the grievance as Aubrey said.

Oof, this episode brought up a lot of things for me. My dad and I went no contact for a couple of years in my 20s and it was because I got tired of his constant criticism of every little thing I did. He was also a military man and treated us kids like we were his soldiers. He would give me the silent treatment over the smallest perceived wrong doing, and it got worse when I came to terms with being queer. So when I got tired of groveling for forgiveness for just being myself, I decided to give the silent treatment back to him. We've reconciled now that I'm nearing my 40s, but it took a long time for him to understand where I was coming from. Mike asked what people are supposed to do, just not set boundaries with our parents (paraphrasing) and that was actually my dad's whole thing. He wanted unwavering and unquestioning respect simply because he was my father. We were never to question why, we were often to be seen and not heard. When I would tell people that I went no contact, they would be like "but he's your dad" and I just don't think that should mean that you should put aside emotional or physical abuse. I still think respect should be earned.

God bless y'all. I feel so much less like I'm shouting into the void.

Oh man, I really wish I could send this episode to my entire family.

Okay, had to pause at the guy on Oprah - of all people, a psychologist should know that someone’s emotions (love) and their actions (abuse) are separate spheres. It’s perfectly possible for parents to both love and abuse their kids. I would even say it’s the norm, IME. Plenty of people who hit their children truly believe they are doing the best possible thing to raise them well (see: anyone who calls it “spanking”). They’re wrong, mind you, but they believe it.

God I hope my sister is a part of this patreon 🙏🏻

Estranging child here! If those people demonizing cutting off their parents understood how incredibly painful it is to have a parent reject you or your vulnerability. I grieve my parents all the time. Fucking James Dobson

I see my original comment got nuked which like, ok fine. MP patreon isn't ready for that, but I do think the institution of parenting as it currently exists is fundamentally oppressive for children. You basically aren't a person for 18 years, you are a piece of luggage hauled around by your parents and I am of the opinion that this is a dogshit arrangement. Children need legally enshrined rights, children should be able to leave their parents. children are not little proto-humans, they are full on human beings with personhood and interiority akin to that of any adult, and a just society would recognize that fact. I'm not saying that kids should be able to do literally whatever they want, I'm saying parents shouldn't be able to do whatever they want to their kids.

Aubrey is that gif of Hades from the Hercules animated film this episode

Saw the title and remembered the couple days I lost inhaling every Issendai article. The Missing Missing Reasons is like a foundational text to me.

Every time I got mad Aubrey was there to be my avatar and shout about it very satisfying lol

There’s a new book out called “Families We Lose” by a sociologist, Rin Reczek, where she interviews people who have gone no contact and asserts that more and more people want a model of “democratized kinship” instead of hierarchal family models. She did an interview on NPR’s Code Switch about how race and queerness inform people’s choice to go no contact, too! It’s a really good listen.

Holy cow, I didn't know how much I needed the Doormat mom and (your synopsis of) her book. My mom (who I'm still probably mid, not even really low contact with by most standards) is so much that I sometimes forget how she tried to sabotage my wedding the week before, accusing my fiance (whom she had gone ring shopping with) of landing my father in the hospital (he had kidney disease).

Oh my God thank you for this episode. I cut my mother off 10 years ago when I was 24 and it was the best decision I've ever made. Thankfully she is such a garbage human that anyone that knows her understands why I don't talk to her lmao. ETA: I'm obviously not at all qualified to diagnose anyone, much less my mother. That said lmao. I've heard people use the term narcissist really often on social media and after a lot of contemplating- I have no idea what, if anything, my mother has, but it wouldn't surprise me even slightly if it turned out she had antisocial personality disorder. From my very limited understanding, she fits all criteria, I'm just not sure if she would have met criteria for conduct disorder as a kid.

I'm at minute 20:58 and AS A FUCKING THERAPIST, I am also about to have a fucking heart attack right along with Aubrey. I'm kinda done with Oprah at this point. First she gave us Dr. Phil. Then just gave us Dr. Oz. Now this fucking guy. I'm constantly (gently) pushing back on clients labeling people with terms like narcissism because fucking TT has made everyone thing their mom is a narcissist. On the other end, I usually have to work with people for months to years before they are finally able to leave clearly abusive relationships (whether that be a partner, a friend, parents, whatever). People ASK me to tell them what to do and I have to remind them that that is not my job. My job is support them in making the best choices for themselves, even when some of those choices worry the fuck out of me. I just .......🤯🤯🤯. I was like "Oooh, yay! A new MP!" when I woke up. Twenty minutes in I'm going to be late to work because I had to leave a comment before I imploded. 😅

yeah I finally cut off my parents after my father was arrested after assaulting my mother, and she decided to stay with him. she threw the abuse she experienced my way throughout my childhood and I just decided, at the grand age of 32, to jsut be done with it. i may have forgone a large inheritance, and i now have no real family left (both siblings are dead) so this was not something I took lightly.

Calling your grown kids spoiled and then wondering why they don't talk to you is wild. My experience of both my parents and in-laws has been that they will say and do extremely hurtful things and never even think of apologizing or taking responsibility. When I try to set boundaries or talk to them about it they'll be hurt and expect all kinds of apologies from me.

"I'm not calling you fat I'm just saying they don't make that in elephant size. " 🤣🤣🤣

lost my mom in 2018, amazing woman! miss her! i would never tell a soul, "love her now, you only have one mom!!", such bs. how about parents actually step up and respect the awesome responsibility that is raising another human life.

Why is the news media so in love with horrible narcissistic people?

my best friends mom threatened to kill her multiple times and abused her horribly and she's all over the internet like "why does my horrible shitty child not love me???"

OK I haven't finished the episode yet but PLEASE DO THE COLIN POWELL WAR CAMPAIGN DIET BOOK I AM BEGGING YOU, thank you 🙏🙏🙏🙏

It's funny to talk about the social pressure aspect because I sort of experienced it second hand. My dad went no contact with my grandpa in the 70s/80s for very legit reasons, but my mom, coming from Latin America where things are very family-centric (and her having some of her own parental baggage), encouraged my dad to reconnect when they were dating. Fast forward to today where my grandpa is not a value-add to any of our lives and is a bit of a drain on my dad, and my mom has told me in private that sometimes she regrets doing it. It goes to show that these things are messy, and even well intended pushes to reconnect don't always pan out.

Mike, if you would like another person to interview who has gone non-contact (with a former step-father, but has very close step-siblings), please reach out. Currently working through the episode so if not needed please disregard. I would LOVE to contribute if needed. Extra info, I was raised Mormon so there’s that.

++++ Big trigger warning for everything you can think of ++++ This is cathartic. My parents both hit me regularly when I was a child and I have only recently (3 years ago) worked up the courage to get away from them (I am 40). My siblings and me all had suicide attempts as teens. For your entertainment, one of my dad's recent emails (careful, hard to read...): Hi XXX, I would like to try and describe the path you have chosen to take about breaking off contact with us, my reaction to this and why I think it's wrong. Your perspective: You are blaming your parents for bad treatment in your childhood by breaking off contact with them. My perspective: You are playing the victims. In this situation there is no way out because no matter how much we apologise, we cannot change the past. You do not accept our apologies but insist on breaking off contact because you say this is to "protect yourselves". My answer to this: Of course we were not perfect parents and did things wrong. However in a balanced relationship it is also the children who need to watch their behaviour. You stole money from us, missed school illegally, took drugs, smoked excessively and were a great burden on us with your psychological problems in your teens. What is worse, you are not protecting yourselves from us because you all left home 20 years ago and have been leading your own lives. Breaking off contact will not improve your lives in any way – it will just make things worse. To blame us for all this especially after 20 years of living away from home, is too short sighted. There is more that lies behind this. I think it is because you are not able to manage your own problems and responsibilities because we are no longer there to help you and you cannot express your problems in words so you are looking for someone to blame, i.e. me and Mama. You will also find with your own children that you make mistakes and maybe get the blame from them. The "perfect" parent does not exist and I am sure you have discovered that yourselves now. Does all this help? Of course not. I feel I have done all I can to make contact with XX again. The only result is accusations from XXX and XXX who have broken off contact as well. There is nothing more I can do and it is now up to you to come out of "hiding". I think there are not many families who can say that the parents have done so much for their children. Bringing up X children, especially girls is hard. In your teens it is quite common to have psychological problems but to blame the parents for this is very unjust. We did our best to help you. I am sure you remember. What do you all expect to achieve by this? By breaking off contact you are showing that you do not want a solution because you refuse to discuss the subject. You will just make me and Mama very very unhappy. What have you done for me and Mama in return for what we have done for you? You can answer this question yourselves if you can. You have abandoned us. It hurts me very very much. What is emotional intelligence? Emotional intelligence is he ability to understand one's own feelings and those of other people and to react in an appropriate way. It influences not only our relationship with others but also plays an important tole for our own well being and our mental health. What I have done for you: Brought you up and paid for your education Took you to school although you refused to go - XXX paid for all your driving licences Bought you motorbikes and bicycles – XXX Bought a new car for XXX Bought a new car for XXX Discouraged smoking and drugs as much as we could I spent 25 years of my life working for you all Mama took 10 years off work and stayed at home to look after you all Taken you on many holidays including X and X Taken all you children to visit Granny and Grandad at Christmas in X while they were still alive for many years Paid for XXX further education at X Paid for XX further education at X Paid for 1 year in X for XX Given all of you our house made you owners Took you on a holiday to X cost over XX Bought you washing machines and dryers – XXX Bought you a coffee machine - XXX Bought you robot vacuum cleaners  XXX and XXX – a waste of money Given you X financial support – XX for ending job and XX for leg operation Paid for Kindergarten for X and X and partially X X each except for X because she would not give me her bank data Paid X for baby support on X And so on….

The shelf!!!!

It's part of the battle cry/whining of the redpill guys/fathers rights groups. They're instrumental in pushing this narrative too. The reality is a lot of those guys can't see their children, for very good reasons

Almost two hour Maintenance Phase bonus ep to get me through the work day, it's like early Christmas over here

twisting my body in excitement for this!

Yaaasss, a new episode. My mental health is purring 🥰

Alternate article title - Boomers mad they can’t hit their kids anymore 🙄

Its cute you guys think we haven't heard about the Amy Acton ad outside US...

this is michael hobbes catnip

Ah, with Thanksgiving & Christmas rolling up, a perfect episode for kids with narcissistic parents 💔

Why was I convinced this was going to be an IBCK episode

Oh boy, an episode about "why don't my children call me" Idk Dad bc I'm a transgender lesbian and you described that fact as disrespect of you, personally.

Me to my partner: Man I really needed this tonight *And it’s a Maintenance Phase episode*

1hr40 our cup runneth over