MM15 - Save Your Servants!: Barker, Blatty & Writers In Hell

The Exorcist 2000 wasn’t just a DVD; it was very much a theatrical release, & pretty heavily attended.

1:04:25 interesting parallel to Beau is Afraid

Coming back to this after watching exorcist 3 last night. A great episode. Truly. I wish they’d discussed the scene where George C Scott goes to the crime scene after Dyer has been murdered. That high angle shot as the detective explains to Kinderman that not a drop of blood has been spilled except for what was used in the writing….and Kinderman snarls a question “writing”…. Just the overall pacing of the delivery. The anguished look on everyone’s face. The thunderstorm starts and the rain thrums the window. Also a scene not touched on is the first priest killing in the confessional….the voice of the possessed old lady (because I guess when the Karrass body sleeps it can astral possess the catatonics of DC with the Gemini killer soul??) how it says “so much blood father” is really fucking creepy. The fact the movie was making me nervous and I’d seen it before is incredible.

The best MM ep

Goddamn, Brad Dourif is the fucking man. He's Oscar worthy in exorcist III (him in the cell is some of my favourite 5 or 6 minutes of acting in horror history) , he WAS Oscar nominated for his first ever role in One Flee Over The Cookoo's Nest. And yet, he was arrogant or thought he was above anything. He clearly just had the time of his fucking life voicing Chucky in every single Childs Play up 'til the present. And, he voicing Direct to video Child's Play using it to bond with his daughter, while at the same time, being Emmy nominated for playing Doc Cochran in the best written TV show ever, Deadwood. He just loved acting and loved making people happy and entertaining them; be it via direct to video horror-comedy schlock or, the best of Prestige TV, or the best of New Hollywood auturist cinema, or the greatest blockbusters ever in Lord of the Rings. Dude is just the fucking Shahanshah, the King of Kings. Absolute fucking legend and just one of my favourite people in the industry. Not just for his great performances he gives, just swinging for the fences regardless of the script, but for his philosophy on his art form. EDIT: ah, now that I'm balls deep in the ep I see they say a lot of what I say here. So, kinda wasted my time typing this haha.

Hesses description of the kirsty hospital room scene is spot on

In terms of the nature of evil, I think Blatty played sort of a Kennedy-like limit-case role in his conception of American plague. He clearly loved that Georgetown/Catholic/functionary-end-of-the-CIA social set and often reverted to it, & he believed sincerely in a version of both Catholicism and America, but it was also clear to him that something had gone horrifically wrong and that the USA had become a plague vector. It's easy to miss in THE NINTH CONFIGURATION, because you get so wrapped up in the Col. Kane storyline, but that is explicitly a movie about the Vietnam War shredding American souls – and specifically the souls of military men, who thought they could handle it – so badly that only a Crucifixion/Resurrection sequence of Mystery Play miracles could save even a single person. And I think it was very deliberate that nearly everyone in that movie is either a non-com or a full officer: these aren't conscripts fresh out of boot camp and into Khe Sanh, these are professional killers who have now seen something far worse than the depravity, murder, and degradation that are just "the US doing its business." If I recall right, Killer Kane fought in the Korean War as well, but it was running Special Forces missions in Vietnam that turned him into a Demogorgon. Whether or not that's a defensible view of American history (and it isn't), still, the post-CIA Blatty had clearly acquired a sense that he, and all Americans being exposed to the grim meathook realities of American truth after the mid ’60s, were being not just haunted but hunted by something very old and very deep inside America itself, perhaps not exclusively American in origin, but certainly resident there since the Vietnam War began. That's why I think of JFK, his late-in-life conviction that America was a worthwhile project but not a casus belli for the extinction of every other form of social organization, and that the project had gone very fucking wrong by the time he had the chance to watch it up close. Add in the Catholicism, and it's easy for me to see both of Blatty's movies as deeply haunted postmortem dreams of the "friendly competition"/America-among-others principle that died in our politics when JFK's skull burst open. (Which is not to offer an uncritical defense of either Kennedy or Blatty on political grounds, jesus no, but is to say that there was a time when people well acquainted with the real corridors of power could still think that way, that time is gone, and we're probably never getting it back.)

the Ed Flanders + Scott Wilson + Jason Miller + George DiCenzo 82nd Blatty Airborne Corps were all brilliant

saaataaaan

Spooky silence at the very end of the episode

I’m in the middle of Exorcist III, and I had to pause it and thank you for calling this movie I would have probably never given the attention to had you not highlighted it. This film is so freaking good, it should be taught in a film class. Just so much atmosphere, you cut it with a knife. Shots framed to perfection. Actors that fully embody their character to an insane level. Dialogue that sizzles like steak on a frying pan. A script with not a single ounce of fat on it. Heart-griping suspense. The bleakest of worldviews. Deep, staggering existential horror. This film has 👏 it 👏 all 👏 Oh, I haven’t listened to your commentary of it yet. Edits: so many edits. But also, Exorcist III is the superior Exorcist for many reasons, but also because it’s ACAB.

Just finished this one. Watched them both before listening and am so glad I did. Thanks

I don’t really watch horror movies and haven’t seen either one of these, but I found this to be the most engaging podcast I’ve listened to in a long time. Thank you for the passion.

As good as Christopher Young’s score to Hellraiser is, the original score was done by none other than friends of Clive Barker, fellow gay Liverpudlians of the legendary dark experimental industrial band Coil. I highly recommend checking out their “The Unreleased Themes for Hellraiser (The Consequences of Raising Hell)” and the back story behind why it didn’t get used in the finished film.

Total baby-brained observation incoming but: Christopher Young's music helped make the scene in Hellraiser where Frank pull his body back together so memorable. Whether by coincidence or intention, the scene in Spider-Man 3 where Sandman rebuilds himself owes a lot to the Hellraiser scene, first and foremost because it is also scored by Christopher Young.

Exorcist 3 and Blattys work in general just drove me to a new low. When i watched E3 for the first time and listened to the story of the black boys murder, even moreso then how Jeffery Dahmer fasioned himself in the image of this movie, it put a really profound idea in my head. Most of the extreme 'pure evil' acts described in this film, or even nowadays cooked up by the subsequent satanic panic, are things i could not have though up of. Cause i dont want to sit there and try and figure out what is the most horrible inhuman thing someone could do.... but THESE christians, catholics, and devout religious people who claim they are trying to destroy the evil... THEY do and they imagine this stuff and bring it about into our consious. To them they believe that there must be a pure evil running counter to their pure goodness, their world of angels and deities. So they MUST themselves create, or you could say 'summon', these abbhorent demonic evils in order to make their God true, in order to justify Gods existence. They do write out and imagine out the most vile things that i would never want to think about because they have to make this capital Evil demonic power exist in order to call forth their god to destroy it. And that is what i was left with after seeing Exorcist 3... and it actually worked! It inspired Dahmer to his killings. The original Exorcist brought back this archaic medieval totally false idea of demon possession back into the modern world and people once again believe in it more than ever in the era of Qanon. The satanic panic came just shortly after the shock of the Exorcist film and i feel it must have contributed. The Exorcist films are fantastic horror films... but i have to ask why did a devout follower of god brainstorm up these horrific things? And there is that implication that they actually think these very things are real! They are great films but i kind of hate them the more i think about it.

Both films have been sampled by a number of industrial music acts

Another Georgetown Basketball cameo, you see legendary head coach John Thompson walking down the street with some players during the the exterior shot outside the restaurant where Father Dyer and Det. Kinderman are on their date.

This was a fascinating discussion. I’d love to hear you guys tackle all of Barker’s films (Director’s cuts only). There are only 2 more.

Regarding media referencing one of the many generous details in the Exorcist III : The survival horror game Clock Tower has a villain named scissorman who carries giant shears and loves loppin off heads. Shit that might just be from "The Burning"

Looking forward the E3 review after wooooork!

Carrie! Pls do a Carrie ep!

I think the whole London prostitute thing explains the details of the teeth.

Been waiting for this…Ex 3 is so good, an every year rewatch

On YouTube there’s an Exorcist 3 compilation of George C. Scott yelling. I can’t stop watching it.

Um, it's Kirsty, not Kristy. You frauds.

Hesse’s joy in talking about movies she loves is so contagious this ep was a gift !!!

Ewing played for Georgetown of course which is reason for the cameo

Brendan asking will to repeat his snide remarks I enjoyed most

will was so cunty on this ep omg… have him on SD again with a full f slur pass

"...Like Jeffery, you might also be gay." Laughed out loud at the office. Now fielding weird looks.

Thought I had watched the "Legion" cut but here I am surprised that I had never got around to it. I was stunned by the addition of a photo of Brad Dourif in the restaurant scene. I thought, was the Gemini Killer also a priest? Huh?I don't know if they tried to get Jason Miller back but Dourif is meant to be Karras, not an alter-ego or the "real" Gemini Killer. Miller and Dourif don't look alike, not at all really. So strange.

in regards to the georgetown cameos, in addition to ewing, there's a coach john thompson cameo, where he's walking outside a cafe where father dyer & kinderman are chatting

As Gen Xers, I don’t think you can appreciate how shocking it was in the mid 70s to hear a cute little 12 year old spewing obscenities: “Your mother sucks cocks in Hell!” and “Stick your cock up her ass Merrin!” and to Priests. And masturbating with a crucifix. These incidents made one feel only demonic possession could account for this depravity. On another note, The Exorcist is the story of two scientist priests, one whose faith is confirmed by his research-Merrin, the other who is losing his faith by the same means-Karras.

Watching the exorcist 3 for the first time it immediately occurred to me how much of true detective is taking the Kinderman/Dyer relationship from this film and making a whole series about it. The scene where they get lunch together and the hospital scene feel almost directly stolen by Nic P

Hesse doing an English accent always cracks me up, what an EP!!!

talk about Reanimator and you'll have covered films featuring most of the best aliens from DS9

Keeping my nails clean and neatly trimmed for you, Will 💕

I agree the Hellraiser series is horrible past 1 and 2 but I think Inferno is pretty entertaining it just seems like it didn't have to be a Hellraiser movie

omg when hesse mentioned Three Versions of Judas … realest shit ever

I think the Catholic affinity with Aristotelian logic, via its theological capture by Thomas Aquinas, comes from the same basic problem Blatty had here – Catholics are raised to be certain of the existence of absolute evil, so we weakly traffic in the logical necessity of absolute good as a matter of intellectual balance, and almost none of us really believe in it

Hell yes, this episode rules!

Please tell me you guys talk about the fucking Skyrim dragon at the end of Hellraiser

William Peter Blatty, in addition to being a genius freak, was also a CIA agent, and all of his movies are worth seeing along that axis too – what do you get when you allow an uncommonly sincere Catholic spook to open up his skull and pour his brains all over 120 minutes of film

Directed by William Bladee

Shoutout to the best Borges story. A theology so horrible that the character who conceives it goes insane.

Did they not talk about the confessional scene??

Wonderful discussion of amazing films. Thank you for thoughtfulness on this scale.

Never knew that about Carpenter originally being slated for director, they should've let him do the exorcism scene only

Two of my favourites, but that damned Exorcist 3 hallway scene has permanently fucked me up for my night shifts. I still get sketchy in dark hospital hallways.

This was a great episode. Has Brendan considered or done voiceover work before? His Friedkin-Blatty was amazing

I stopped the pod in the middle to watch Exorcist III for the first time and I am in outer space. What a film! Thank you truely for inspiring me to watch, appologies to my non-MM husband having to put up with my hooting and hollering.

Hellraiser II: Hellbound is my favorite in the series. It has my favorite film moment/line: "And to think, I hesitated"

Fucking killer episode folks

Love this show

I know Barker was very upset at how the film adaptation of Rawhead Rex turned out, largely because Rawhead was supposed to be a giant penis monster and the studio noped out on that idea. Pulling this out of my ass, but I’ve often wondered if the Engineer in the film (which IIRC is very different than the novella version) is him finally putting a dick monster in his movie.

🔥🔥🔥

movies are gay

The Exorcist III is genuinely way better than The Exorcist

This would have been considered one of the most homophobic recordings ever, if Hesse wasn't the one saying all the homophobic things. She tore

Honestly out of all of the horrific things I remember seeing in Hellraiser, the penis monster isn't clicking for me but it sounds cool

Clive sounds cool as hell

I love Excalibur…

This movie has been fact checked by real catholic patriots

Brendan absolutely killing the George C. Scott and William Friedkin impressions.

Excellent discussion! Two of my favorite movies.

They mentioned Paddy Chayefsky during the ep which reminded me of 'Altered States', another movie they should totally watch for this podcast.

the penetrating nail reminds me of the fang/stake in Dracula as a sexual analogy in some sort of weird chiasmus

I can’t get there on the Brad Dourif scenes man, the setup for that character is so convoluted and bizarre and his monologues are so wordy and rehearsed that it’s just not that scary COME AT ME DOURIF BROS I WILL RIP! AND MUTILATE!

Storywise there's an interesting parallel between 'Hellraiser' and 'The Silence of the Lambs' in which the hero, to stop a criminal, must risk their conscience by requesting help from a thoroughly evil but all-powerful third party (the Cenobites and Hannibal Lecter). The true horror of both stories is that by the end the hero has only defeated the lesser evil, to the benefit of the greater. Another movie with a similar dynamic is 'The Prophecy' with Christopher Walken as Gabriel and Viggo Mortensen as Lucifer.

I believe in SLIME

Oh great, the woke lame stream media is coming for my boy Jeffrey Dahmer now../

I originally watched Exorcist III because Chapo had mentioned it before. Thank you 🙏

Hell yeah. For a a couple of weeks I’ve been wondering “Why Exorcist III?”

Wait in that Exorcist 3 dream, is there a vet where you can get your dog circumcized?

this season of MM is giving me LIFE - appreciate it so much especially since I am too squeamish to watch most horror movies!

To the point about Young's score classing up Hellraiser, the original score was an industrial/ electronic composition by the band Coil. Interesting to consider how it would've been received with this music: https://youtu.be/9ZS7eM_-jEA?si=2D3H999woNEUGP47

Barker is a surprisingly down-to-earth, chill dude. Check out this interview after Hellraiser was released, where he fielded stupid questions from dumb students with great humor and aplomb. https://youtu.be/ZOqaKgrbjfQ?si=p82l3tDy9My8ZpHs

Thanks for the shoutout <3 William Peter Blatty and Clive Barker forever.

I remember first hearing the “rip and cut” sound clip from heavy metal tunes (taste of my scythe).

Just want to recommend the audiobook version of the Hellbound Heart - Clive Barker does the reading and his voices for Frank and the Cenobites are great

Michael Crichton's Coma also feels relevant, here. While not technically a horror movie, it inspired one of the most arresting images in The X Files, and offered a very early glimpse into what would someday be termed transhumanism (an intrusion of hell through the body).

We need to talk about Nightbreed.

Appreciate the critical reevaluation that Excorcist III has gotten in the last few years. It was a blast to see in the theater on it’s original release.

Just what I needed today y'all. Preesh!

I'm surprised Will can can bring up From Beyond wihhout getting sprung on Barbara Crampton's hottest scene.

Will literally vibrating

Another instance of foreshadowing: the sound the nurse Amy hears before she dies is the shears slowly being opened, like we saw in the scene with the doctor. I love this movie so much but especially the sound design

Sorry Brenden, but when it comes to penis monsters in media, Mara from the Megami Tensei series takes the number one spot. The Engineer is definitely in the top 3 though.

Yessss American Werewolf in London is a classic you guys should do that one too

Do a review of Midsommar! If you look at it from the angle of American egotism vs. Scandinavian herd conformity, it's quite thought-provoking. Plus you can contrast it with The Wicker Man.

Love this trio

Lol’d at “cucked on all fronts”/“two-front cucking war”

Shout out Sleazoids, indeed. Josh & Jamie are true movie mindset kings

No mention of how one of the Halloween sequels was going to have a cenobite tie-in

of all the iconic 80s horror franchises (Friday, Nightmare, Halloween, Chucky), Hellraiser has the most precipitous falloff. Part 3 is bad but 4,5,6 are quite literally unwatchable

just recently saw Exorcist 3 for the first time really not expecting much and was completely blown away. wow what a film!

Was not ready for 75% of Exorcist 3 to take place on the block where I pick up weed, I was down there last night and took some extra time to hit all the locations in the movie and soak in the spooky Georgetown vibes. Extremely atmospheric location, too bad about the people.

i've been so excited for this exorcist three talk since it was announced

That scene in EIII still gets me, even though I know it's coming.

One of the all time Brad Dourif performances

Yes! It's the hour of the wolf here in spooky Hollywood and I need my spook-fix (and this ZZZQuil chaser)... Love you ghouls!

MM15 sounds like a cool gun

Get well Matt! Will listen now.