Should we give access to unfinished games?

One of the many things that sets you apart is the quality of your work. I feel that it would be a major turn off to see the unfinished product.

I see a lots of "no's" in what you write and I agree. I see no point in release a half? finished game with bugs, some wierd/wrong text and broken links. Not to mention, that you two risk to find it worldwide with errors and whatnot. That alone could give you more harm than good. I can wait and I'm sure most others can too. Maybe a little game, a kind of premovie for Pandora2 could do the job instead and give those really unpatience something to play/watch? I know that it will postpone final release of Pandore2 some time, but it's just an idea and maybe some of allready done scenes can be used (in a different path perhaps)?

One of the things I had thought about mentioning in my earlier post Tlaero just touched on, the magic word, Spoilers (vocal sounds and images of River Song). With some Patrons having access to content there will be comments made in forums like this one. And this will erk those of us who rail against spoilers. Quick example, in a social environment recently a group I was part of were talking about movies we had enjoyed. I asked anyone who had seen what I was about to suggest to not drop any spoilers then I mentioned Ladyhawke. One lady just couldn't help herself and started going off about the twist. I reacted by chastising her, with humor, talking louder and louder so others who hadn't seen the film wouldn't hear her. There was lots of laughter but it it was quite frustrating how long this lady just kept talking. I was a bit amazed. In a place like this it's near impossible to censor such spoilers. Just another bite to digest in your to pre-release or not to pre-release smorgasbord.

Honestly how about just make posts about how close to done you guys are, say we have X scenes left and it's about X amount of pictures. Give us a rough release date or a percentage of completion. Something like that.

I'm not interested in playing incomplete games... I'd rather wait for it to be finished.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to help us get better on this. You've given us a lot to think about. Even though the vote is 3-1 against the idea and almost all comments were also against it, 48 people (as of now) have said they'd be interested in this. That's actually very significant. Note that, even if we gave "in progress" access $25 patrons, no one would be forced to use it. If you're against seeing "spoilers" or seeing the game before its done, then you don't need to follow the link. Although, I can imagine a "temptation" problem. Maybe that suggests that we should keep the $25 level what it is today and add a $26 level that is specifically for "work in progress" access. That way people who want to do the $25 level but not fight temptation have a mechanism. Regardless, I'll think carefully about this and discuss it with Mortze. We won't rush into it. And we'll discuss ways to keep you more up to date on Pandora without regardless of all of this. --Tlaero

JFR is spot on...could not have said it better

I didn't play your recent games but I played your older ones and they were awesome! Thank you for your work. However, you may consider giving access to one developing game - I'm pretty sure that there could be one or two players who will give a really valuable opinion

Well, I read your entire post, thought about it and concluded that I completely disagree. This really is just the same old "paying for support versus paying for content" argument that has been hashed out over and over - here and on other artist's pages. You ask "what am I paying for if I can't see it before it is finished?" The answer is that as a PATRON, you are doing what patrons have done since the renaissance. You are paying to support and encourage artists in pursuing their art. The game is free and the "patron perks" are an expression of appreciation from the artist for your support. Your support payments do not pay for anything beyond that, certainly not access to the artistic development process. As many others, you seem to confuse paying for a product and paying to support the artist. If some patrons decide to leave because they are not receiving some product for each monthly payment, then they are not really patrons at all. They are CUSTOMERS. And that is an entirely different thing.

I guess this came up in part because of my message when I ended my pledge a few days ago. Tlaero said as much when they messaged me yesterday about this. It would have been good if I had time yesterday to explain my position, but oh well; I'm here now. I haven't read comments before writing this, just to warn you, because I wanted to give my thoughts unfiltered. I only started using Patreon at all about 2 months ago in large part because of discovering Pandora, playing it through several times and liking it enough to look at the code to make sure I had seen all it had to offer. I supported Tora Productions in thanks for my enjoyment of that game and the other games I found because of it, (I had last looked at Tlaero's work on Lesson of Passion years ago) and supported many other artists as well. I especially enjoyed that I could see when files had been updated on the dropbox link on Mortze's site so I could download them and see where the story way going - or imagine how the story would be going. For instance, there were several images produced of Kean in the Captains office, but since the script had not been added I could only imagine what was happening. Were they talking about the expedition? The leaders? Did Kean get busted with his daughter and the captain was giving him the "I'll feed you to the sharks" speech? It really built anticipation (and that's just one example), and I was disappointed when the link (still there) 404'ed as the game was removed. I did see some text added to that scene, but I won't spoil it. I understand that different artists on Patreon view its payment system and their patrons in different ways, and different game developers have different approaches, but in the last 3-4 years of paying attention to the development of erotic games, an open development style has predominated among those I watch, both strongly funded on Patreon, those which only have Patreon as a tip jar, and games which eschew funding altogether. To me, being able to see the development as it happens strongly incentivizes me to support on a continuing basis- if I can't see it until it's done, then what was I paying for? As a consumer of a product, I want the product before I pay for it. There's way to add value during that wait, of course, (here there are the caption contests, short stories, and special images) but none measures up to the actual game content. The same issue keeps me from supporting Virtual Date Games more than once a year, and has led to my decision to stop supporting Pusooy when my current Elite status is up after over 3 years (I love his work, but he used to do lots of images for each game; now he barely releases one per year and the Elite page hasn't been updated significantly since I started supporting). I feel like Tlaero and Morze are looking at this the wrong way, and I think it's in part due to getting burned by thieves several months ago. The thing is, like the post says here, it's inevitable. Short of DRM, games will get stolen or copied; it's the way of the internet. Proposing open access to the game as a top tier award definitely won't change that, and neither will making it online only; both will only drive some people away, and towards pirating. MY SUGGESTION HERE Instead, just make development open, to everyone. It was before, for at least a month, and patronage still rose steadily even with the monthly dropoffs. Make it $5 a month to get the build a week or so before it hits a public page, and I think patronage will continue rising. People always want things better, faster, cheaper. You already have better in the bag with your beautiful artwork and great writing. Faster you can provide by letting people see the builds (no one is going to judge you for incomplete scenes and unedited text, since that's inherent in the system, and you can use feedback to fix bugs before a game is 1.0). And cheaper you can use to your advantage by reducing the barrier between supporting your work and pirating it, allowing more people to make the leap to being patrons to support the games they enjoyed. And this isn't just me. A quick check on Graphtreon shows that every one of the NSFW game developers in the top 50 gives middle or lower tier access to their game as it is developed (it was a bit weird when Kravenar voiced their opposition here, since they also release builds, as I know from being a Patron). I believe people are voting against paying 25$ a month, not the idea of open access. So, there are my thoughts. (Resisting... urge... to edit after reading comments...)

Also... I don't think that I'm typical of most of the people who pledge money on Paetron. I rarely ever download incremental updates from creators because I prefer to be able to enjoy the "complete" experience of the finished game without spoilers. I actually like the extras that you guys provide (the bonus art, short stories, etc.) a great deal more than what you typically get with high pledge levels from most other creators. Honestly, Tora Productions is one of two creators on Paetron that I would continues to support even if I wasn't sure that I would ever be able to play another of their games. I think highly enough of the work you guys are doing that you being able to do it professionally is part of my "perfect world." My monthly donations are my way of helping to build that world. I am a patron of your art, because I believe that your art is worth supporting.

I voted against for reasons mentioned in earlier posts - piracy, etc. Because of the way that your games are made, I actually can't imagine how a partially-complete version would even be playable. Do you even work "front to back" on your games? That may sound silly, but there are quite a few writers out there who churn out elaborate outlines of their work and write individual "scenes" before piecing the entire narrative together, and there even more who write their endings (or at least work them out) before composing the rest.

Mortze speaking -- Half patrons have voted so far. I'm marveled by all the participation :)

It looks like the vote is over-whelming against early releases. This is something I have toiled with myself and I agree with those who said your game structure doesn't really need it. While early or partial releases could drum up patrons it could also keep some from taking that step. This is your art and your compositions. Do what feels right for you. Explanations can be given as needed. You need to not only protect your work but do it the way you feel has the biggest impact. I have been jonesing for this new Pandora installment but hold back asking for release updates because I know it will be coming. And when it is released... it'll be like Christmas. I also agree with you, Mortze, that playing games incrementally isn't all that satisfying. I have found that the longer that goes on the more my interest wanes. Stay the course and know that we are all looking forward to seeing the completed product. Instead you two can put your minds to figuring out other means of advertising for new patrons.

I pledged because I liked Pandora, and wanted more of it. I already know what I'm pledging for, I don't need an example, I just want the finished product, when it's ready. (I've had enough of playing early access games on Steam, too)

While I feel there are games where incremental releases are beneficial (rpg maker games where variables, add-ons, and other issues can quickly create bugs means bug hunt releases are a good idea, alternately hyper in-depth, complex games like The Last Sovereign would never have funding if the final release had to be waited for, just due to how long patrons would be waiting). That being said, I feel like games in the format you have would lose a lot from being partial games. Being able to play it start to finish in one sitting without losing a whole day is part of that. I feel like the essence of the games would be lost if they were to be played a bit at a time. This being said, if you do decide to do a high-level patron only early access reward, a couple things come to mind. 1. You already have natural break points built in where the point total available increases, the end of each section would be the place to break it if anything. 2. Identifying rippers would be doable a couple different ways that I can see. First, send the early access copy to the patrons manually, with each patron receiving an individualized file. Something minor like a dialog option "Uh...." having 4 periods for the standard but 3 or 5 for the personalized copy. I would imagine effort wise this would be a minor file edit that would be easy to track and look for if the early access shows up in public somewhere and impossible for the rippers to identify without access to the original. Block the offender from your project. Second would be whether it would be possible to put a individualized password on a online version that would provide a copy with a marker somewhere in the file that you could check. I realize setting individualized copies like that would be a pain and possibly difficult to implement, but it is a method of identifying rippers so they can be blocked. Either way, I feel like your art form here is one that should be enjoyed in it's entirety, not piecemeal. As for the idea of releasing it in chapters - I feel like you already are, with how intertwined the games are. I love it.

Mortze here - - I appreciate all the comments and advise. You're really fantastic in getting involved with out project. One of the arguments against the No presented is that people wouldn't want to see the game development bits by bits, and play it like that, because interest and enjoyment of a full game is going to be lost. I totally agree with it. I'm a patron of other artists and I'm very frustrated that each update is small candy, never advancing much, and being quickly finished when played. But I have always been against paternalizing anyone. The 25$ pledge is purely optional and if people want to have spoilers and sabotage their enjoyment of the full game then it's their choice. Some patrons will lose interest in the game afterwards, others will like that option. It's up to the patron to chose if he wants that model or not. My main objection to this feature is having content released when the game isn't finished. Some pics might need editing, typos might exist, some scenes might be deleted, others might be added, code might be broken. Anything we release out there reflects on us. For instance, I'v recently been caught to attention that my pictures were too dark. I'm ashamed of that, because it was simply a matter of monitor calibration, and thanks to JFR I corrected it now. But until then many pics were out without the quality I'd hope (it would be really easy to correct that had I known!). Releasing a faulty product isn't the best option. Of course, a counter argument will say that patrons will be able to give their input, pointing out errors for us to correct before the final version. The drawback is that some patrons will (in all goodwill) give their opinion about script, ideas for sex scenes, etc, and that's a line of creative liberty I'm not sure I want to cross with Pandora. I could just ignore those ideas but ignoring them is rude and that's not a policy I want to adopt either. And of course, the sole idea of having anyone take my pictures and putting them god knows where without my consent is enough to give me bad chills. One thing is doing it when the game is released freely for everyone (which is bad already). Another is to do it while the game is in progress. But I'm not an ego paladin. I am faulty. I am not a saint and therefore I place a great deal of importance in Tlaero's opinion, because she's more experienced, altruisticaly involved in the project, good hearthed and because she's utterly awesome. And that's why I agreed to put the issue into discussion with the patrons. Because your opinion matters tons. I am a noob in terms of marketing, in terms of business. I like to read, render pics, make stories, but I suck at promoting myself. I trust Tlaero and my patrons to guide me in the direction that is best for me. Mortze

I've voted against this as well, as playing unfinished parts wouldn't be the way to go in my opinion. I love your games, love your artwork, only thing I miss is sound, which there was a little bit of in "Sleeping with Elsa" (but still not enough for my taste *winking smile*) Sound work is a more resource demanding aspect, something I can only hope for if your patronage goes up instead of down, so mentioning this is not a complaint, just my own little note of possible improvement to your perfection :) As for suggestions to attract more patrons: Give the $1 Patrons something each month, or week. Could be a picture to look at here at this site, doesn't have to be sexual in any way, but a teaser view of the game in progress would be nice. If you look at your "reward" status and patronage numbers to them, the numbers increase for every one, with exception of Sugar daddy with the reward of rights to place an add. My point is, most ppl have the will to pledge $1 a month if they get something for it. I started pledging $5 a month because of enjoying your work for such a long time for free, but other kinds of people would need some form of "incentive". :)

I must agree with the majority; it would have far more disadvantages to offer alpha versions in a case as this. Posting works in progress (as in some renders etc) and asking patrons for feedback is a much better way than giving out an early build I'd say.

Releasing each month help to attract new patrons, but your games aren't fitting for this, for the same once completed it's beautiful see so much images but with other engine the quantity mortze creates would appear more outstanding(you can see what can dusto does with much less images). And surely your early release would be pirated. I'm not sure that this would mean less patrons(games heavily pirated anyway does much) , but I can understand you want to decide when and to who something is distributed.

I vote against this with all the reasons stated above. What about weekly teasers from the actual game for the $25 tier on top of the normal weekly pics?

I am no technical expert but isn't it possible to play the unfinished game without the possibility to download the game and sharing it? Again I don't know if that's possible. I would like the idea of having a demo/preview but not at the chance that it's shared illegally.

Bad idea for most of the same reasons explained above. First off, we know, someone willingly or not will find a way to publish rough games publicly. Tidal waves of lame, this game sukkz... ad nauseam ensue. It's not something I'd wish on my second worst enemy. You both will be blamed for something that isn't the final version of the game. Risks of shooting yourselves in the foot (feet?) will be high. Second, by publishing part or pieces of a game, you will lock yourself in. Any changes will be discussed, eviscerated, done a post mortem with until even Hannibal Lecter will find the remains distateful. All in all a very bad, worth a tweet, idea.

I don't like these "20 images and 5 minutes of gameplay"-updates. You have to restart a game over and over again. If you look to other artists changelogs, you can see how it ends: first release is ok...30 minutes of gamplay. second release adds a new location and a sex scene... 10 minutes of gameplay. third release fixes some bugs and adds a sex scene... 5 minutes of gameplay. forth release adds a new character and 2 sex scenes... 5 minutes of gameplay. You can get some more patrons with this and loose other patrons, because they are tired of you game.

I think it is a bad idea. Firstly you run the risk of someone going and uploading it elsewhere as you said. Secondly the people with access will essentially have to keep replaying the game each time you update. By the time the game is finished the entirety of the game won't have the same impact in regards to experiencing it and the player may have become burnt out with it having replayed it bit by bit. Thirdly I think you will start having people trying to give you input on what you should and shouldn't do. All your games in the past of been completely developed by the two of you and I'm afraid that too much outside input during the development phase may hurt more than help and cause the completed game to be somewhat outside of your original vision and intent. Patron is about supporting you financial to do what you do. I think just keeping people in the loop with simple updates like "wrote the next scene, soon going to start creating the pictures", "coded another scene", etc is more than enough. Just do what you do. Our reward is getting to see the finished creation at the end.

I was Supporting another creator who did just that. It felt very frustrating playing an unfinished product and I could never see the reason for it. I rather wait for a quality game and pandora looks really fantastic

Could you craft a game in such a way that you could release it in monthly parts (chapters) until it is done? Patrons get to play each chapter. When the game is done, everyone can play. Similar to the way authors wrote monthly chapters for their novels that were published in magazines or newspapers 100+ years ago.

I vote no for two main reasons, 1st is we will have some one whom played the "ruff" version and the plays a "finial" version and they complain that is "not how it was suppose to go it should have lead up to ..." i saw you had it that way,. the second and for me more telling reason is the rip off person/group who signs up once and makes a copy and then post it on some other board, (We had that problem a lot on a board I am a moderator on) so I am really strongly against this idea, if people were all the standard that I try to hold my self to then it would be ok but NO Way Jose'

I personally think that part of the joy of playing your games is that when I play it, I know its an absolutely finished and polished product. I feel like being able to play during development kind of ruins it for us because we aren't impacted by the overall artistic vision you had in mind. I'm not a patron so I can't really comment on what more you should do to engage the patrons, but I personally think that this is not a decision that you need to make if you aren't perfectly OK with it as an artist as I can see some serious drawbacks.

IMHO, you could "engage" patrons better by keeping us in the process a little better without opening up the "never-ending updates" complaints. One way I like some others have of engaging patrons is the occasional release of "teaser" images. This takes a little thought to do right - grab the imagination or whet the appetite for what is coming without creating too many spoilers that might negatively impact game-play. Another way you might consider would be some text material - short stories or story outlines that tell us a little more about the overall story universe.