A video 118 years in the making
New music on dead formats taken to its brilliantly illogical conclusion
Today I will mostly be messing about with cylinder records.
I went off on quite a few tangents in this video - because I felt like it. A video about antique cylinder record players is never going to appeal to the tiktok generation - so sod-em, this one is for people who have a bit more time to kill.
A bit of behind the scenes info - just as I was recording the final piece of audio to overlay on the outro, a bolt inside the machine sheered off while winding it, rendering it inoperative. Fortunately I had just enough audio recorded to work around this in the edit. It looks like I’ll have to tackle my oldest music player repair now at some point but it really needs someone closer to a blacksmith than a HiFi repairer.
I’m going to have a couple of days off now if that’s OK with everyone, I’m completely knackered out. I hope you’re all doing well though - take care and thanks for all the positive messages. It’s been a difficult few weeks and your understanding is appreciated.
Comments (103)
If you really want to know the original manufacture date. User phonogfp at: https://forum.talkingmachine.info/ has a book that could probably give you order answer. Topic I found the info: https://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28591
In the closing comments there was a stack of books behind you. What were they? Especially the Japanese one on the top of the stack?
The books are; Digital Dreams the work of the Sony design centre Sony Chronicle The Revenge of Analog …and six Japanese mooks about old HiFi, Walkman and Boomboxes.
So enjoyed this video, Mat. That bit of the promo cylinder in which the voice says "...and you will never tire of me, for I always have something new to offer" seemed rather poignant alongside your observations about physical media.
Hi Mat, I hope you don't mind - I sent the link to my friend Ethan who collects cylinders and the players. He said to me he really liked it and asked me to say " Thank you". He demonstrates vintage acoustic media in a museum. He said he will get the "new" cylinder you featured to prove the format is not dead yet. He said also he giggled when you had the wrong setting but was happy you managed to play it in the end. Best wishes, Tez and Ethan.
Looks like a new infestation of spambots (I was reading comments again, I'm a glutton for punishment 🫤). https://ibb.co/BqDKRbw I'm undergoing a 'report' extermination campaign.
Thanks - I'll try to delete any I find.
I'm still of the mindset that I don't feel "permitted" to listen to a new album by a favourite band unless it's on a physical object that I've personally bought, and it's there in my possession in my house. Even if I don't get it til a while after the release date, I kind of feel a bit grubby playing a stream and not the "real" album. Anyone else a bit like this? I'll play it as a paid download maybe.
Absolutely - completely agree.
Too modest Mat!
#23 Trending on YT as at 10/04. Terrific!
I did see it at number 15 at one point, it probably just means it was a slow day on YouTube.
Interesting perspective on music as merchandise. I suppose its been that way for quite some time. However now that physical music as the mainstream medium is fading into history, it seems logical that only the merchandising remains. As is usually the case; things never end with a bang, only a question of 'whatever happened to...'
Today at the local car boot sale I picked up a CD Single of The Lightening Seeds "Lucky You" from 1995. The only reason I bought it was that it had the original price label of £2.99 on the front. That is over £6 in todays money for three tracks in an elaborate specially made carboard case resembling a Fruit Machine (one armed bandit). Spookily track 3 is a cover of the Likely Lads theme tune "Oh what happened to you Whatever happened to me What became of the people we used to be Tomorrow’s almost over today went by so fast It’s the only thing to look forward to the past" Which fits your comment perfectly. Taken to the logical conclusion, how long before bands are selling CDs as "Merch" to people who don't own CD players.
Watching again now that it's public ... forgot to mention before that I was *so* disappointed that it wasn't George Thorogood's version of Who Do You Love ... (or even Bo Diddley's original - spoiler alert: the cylinder song is a completely different song). Really quite amazing tech. Yes, loads of pops and crackles, and the mechanism is REALLY noisy (though that may be down to modern mic placement) but imagine what it was like to hear voices and music from a talking machine in 1895. There was some telephone service by then but not much and anyone playing with wireless was using telegraphy, not telephony (that was at least a decade away) ...
George Thorogood is old - but not that old. I must admit to having the same thought, though.
Just think, I might live long enough that my ZZ Top Greatest Hits CD won't hit any content matches. Then again, I'd like to put that album on a cylinder and send it back to my grandparents in a time machine.
Perhaps we should start putting all of our best music onto Edison cylinders. It will be a way to enjoy music if we lose modern technology advancements and power grids.
That looks like an 8-track of Daddy's Home by St. Vincent on the desk you got there. I caved in and wound up getting the pre-order for one of those, hoping I would find the "elusive" gold cartridge.. mine was gray. Still cool, nonetheless, and definitely a novelty/merchandise, all things considered.
Only one medium left... the stone tape.
Having been obsessed with records/vinyl all my life (from age 3 in 1966), I absolutely loved this! I have a few cylinders that I got at a flea market a few years ago, and fantasized about getting a player. I even found some guy in the midwest who refurbished them, but never made the commitment of getting one. Really fascinating to see how it all works, and the fact that it's all run by a large spring - I just love the engineering that makes these things operate. "Repair shop" had at least one episode where they put a spring loaded phonograph back together - great fun to see. I find real beauty in these artifacts from the past. If you ever find yourself in the NYC area, I highly recommend a visit to the 2 Edison museums in New Jersey. One is "Thomas Edison National Park" in West Orange where he had a massive lab and factory, and the other is the "Thomas Edison Center" in Menlo Park where he was doing more of his early work. Thanks for all of your work on this one - you saved me the expense and hassle of getting one of my own! Maybe one day if I ever leave the city and actually have space, I'll take the plunge and get one.
QUICK UPDATE The links to the cylinder etc are now live on the Nameless Dreamers website. I doubt anyone here will get the urge to buy one, but here's the link http://theyetee.com/namelessdreamers You can also stream their music for free on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1nFOGPkteTlUrfVwqLECrq?si=6affc9371c854ce6
I know you don't like collabs, but you should ask one of the bigger restoration channels to have a go at bringing one of these back to full glory. Looks like restoring stuff is big on YT. I follow just one swiss guy, so I can't recommend someone near you, sorry.
I plan to have a look at the broken machine myself.
Apologies if someone said it already: the word Standard in product names had a different connotation back then. It was meant as “something setting a new standard,” which felt closer to, if not exactly what “top of the line” means today. Only later the word moved downward to mean “mid-range.” Thought you might find it interesting.
Thanks
A day late, so hope this doesn't get lost in a sea of comments... An edition of Horizon from 1972 all about Edison, "The Wizard Who Spat On The Floor"... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlzawl
I'll watch this when I get a moment - I also bought a book about Edison a couple of years back that I've yet to get around to reading. The Wizard of Menlo Park
Actually pretty insightful about the trajectory of physical media formats. I had not considered that the CD was the end of the line for audio (even if MDs, etc, were later - they never really caught on) and that Blu-Ray was the end of the line for video. And that in a few years we will be cranks if we can still play those formats! You're completely right! AND interesting about the Edison cylinder decks. My understanding is that in cylinder days that an Edison only played Edison cylinders, a Pathe only played Pathe cylinders and then the same for Berliner and Victor and the others. Not sure if the proprietors of the other companies were as shamelessly self promoting as Edison was, but ...
Ahh, yes. Opera. Always reminded me of a Newfoundland and a Chihuahua having a bark off, to be honest.
I kinda feel like getting a couple of cylinders and trying to hack a player out of unexpected things now... lathe for turning/tracking and accelerometer for capturing the audio?
It always has something magical about it, playing such old formats, especially if no electricity is involved! I actually never saw a working cylinder player... Only mechanical 78s, I even bought one myself 2 years ago, but also just as a "novelty". But for music playing, I use almost exclusively analog formats: vinyl records, reel to reel tape and cassettes ;-).
In regards to the speed, I think even They Might Be Giants struggled with this when they recorded a song on Wac Cylinder at the Edison museum
I'm a big Muse fan and have a load of vinyl records of theirs but I don't own a player. I didn't buy them by choice, I was sort of forced into it. Muse have a habit of releasing special editions of their new albums with loads of merchandise but they always include records, so you have 2 options, buy records or don't have the stuff you actually want.
Reminds me that I've wanted the Knights of Cydonia picture disc but keep forgetting when I have the money spare! Would it be a crime to play it if I got it?
Mat, what a wonderful video, absolutely fascinating. I hd no idea that cylider record players were so intricate . One of your best vides for me personally. only thing that could have made it even more entertaining would have been shooting the whole thing in low resolution black and white with you wearing a monacle and the audio sound track being all scratchy and ever so slightly out of synch. Fantastc !!
"This would be a great place to hide a stash back in the day." It's totally where I would hide my opium and photographs of ladies ankles.
From what I remember, most bands make most of their money from live events and merch, at least the ones signed to labels - they get less than a fifth of the income from an album sale.
Really enjoy your videos, looking forward to watching later :)
Absolutely fascinating video!
Great video, not sure if the two/four minute play time or need to crank every time would be more annoying!
I wouldn't be surprised if some Edison cylinders do get Content ID claims. The video I did about the 1930s RCA transcription record got a musical composition claim for the Mikado opera, even though it was written in 1885 and has long since fallen into the public domain. Thankfully I was able to successfully dispute it.
It’ll be interesting to see if I can get one to match - it would certainly highlight the flaws in the system (not that this would be news to anyone). I also got a composition match from one of the acoustically recorded and reproduced 78s - to music composed by some geezer who died a couple of hundred years ago.
Awesome video! I love learning about the older forms of audio playback. I've always wanted a cylinder player & a phonograph so I'm living vicariously through you!
Very enjoyable video Mat!
Great episode, loved it! Releasing music on mf cylinders, now that's something. These days I think the more universal way to share music would be a YT link funny enough, maybe a flash drive if you were weird but you better hope they have the USB C - A dongle, Lol.
Thanks Matt, Fantastic and really interesting video! It very strange hearing electronic synth sounds from an Edison Cyclinder. It would be really funny other modern releases but who knows if anyone else will. Who even has the Cyclinder Recorders these day! Probably only 'Nameless Dreams Mate' & Maybe that fella you got the 4' Player from 🤣. TechMoan Puppet Theme coming to Cyclinder soon yeah!?!? Hope the puppets are doing okay? I think they should return, If only for the patrons. Anyways mate, Go go put your feet up and relax! Ps. Nameless Dreamers = Hold Music!
If the puppets do return it’ll be as a patron only extra…but I don’t know if that will ever happen, wage negotiations are in deadlock.
That was a really fascinating video, and of course a brand new Edison cylinder release in 2021 would be from a vaporwave outfit.
My band put out a self-released EP on CD in 2019. We ordered 100 and sold maybe 20. But then again, our music is kind of an emetic. Dad punk - yikes!
This was a great video, maybe my favorite techmoan of the year so far!
Thanks for the video Mat. I never knew there were two recording lengths. My friend Ethan has a huge collection of cylinders and players. I'll post him a link when the video goes live.
He’ll know way more than me - it’s more than likely the video will irritate rather than entertain.
I didn't realise the "paid promotion" checkbox was so strict. I should read things! I'll go back and alter some of my videos. Thanks for the tip!
That’s just how I read it anyway - you won’t be alone if you do things differently.
Your section on cylinders and the public domain was very good. I've been speaking on-air recently about how the current delivery systems for digital video has made piracy important. Disney will never release "The Mandalorian" (or any other Disney+ content) on physical media. In a hundred years, when it legally belongs to everybody, can they or their 22nd-century incarnation be counted on to just say "OK, here, we've released the digital video files DRM-free"? Of course not. But pirates will keep these files circulating until the day when downloading them is no longer illegal. Just as the people who recorded TV and radio programs managed to preserve huge swaths of culture that had been discarded by their legal copyright owners, pirates are helping preserve art.
It’s been very carefully managed in order to make sure the only music I can play freely is of a quality that almost no one can enjoy. There’s no coincidence in this, the RIAA et al can pretend it’s about copyright dates…but I’m sure if a CD quality recording medium had existed in 1905 - those copyright dates would look very different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnsizkVjGm8
'oh f--- s---' is just about right 🫣 yikes
Well! That set me off down a rabbit hole! :-) The internet says "The (cylinder) cutter is modulated at right angles to the wax surface ("hill & dale" or "vertical" modulation)" 100 (or 200 for a 4-minute cylinder) turns per longitudinal inch. Your average LP is in the same ballpark of groove spacing. A cheap £10 stereo cartridge wired for mono should be OK. A phono preamp is another £10, the rest is a lash-up of bits of balsa wood or 3D printing. It was a fun "Thought Experiment" anyway. :-)
I knew immediately your gear was in the wrong position. :-) However . . . I tell you what would be interesting and what I would have done and that's to rig up a tonearm with a regular cartridge and stylus and track it along the spinning cylinder. I would be really interested to know just how good the recording on a cylinder is (and compare the new one with the 108 year old one) if reproduced electronically rather than mechanically.
I don’t know if that would work - with the different track width and what have you. I guess I’d have to use a mono cart…I’m not sure I have all the parts laying around to try this.
I found this vid last year and it’s amazing, showing how sound was first made on paper! https://youtu.be/TESkh3hX5oM
Thanks for this -I’ll take a look at that later. I saw a really nice documentary about Édouard-Léon Scott de Martinville a few years ago, but I’ve no idea where I saw it now.
I still remember our conversation in regards to your HMV 102 portable - and good to know you made a video about phonographs! If there is anything I can help in the future video related to this, please let me know. As always, thanks for posting.
This was pretty interesting. I have never actually seen or heard an Edison cylinder being played before. I wasn't even aware there was 2 or 4 minute versions. It's also kind of weird hearing that modern music, which was made with synthesizers being played on a format that predates that type of thing by almost 60 years. One last thing, I wasn't aware of how the paid promotion thing works. I'll need to research that. I have never checked that box because I've never been "paid" with money for making a video. I didn't realize that a free product counted for that.
I only mention it because I get backlash for doing the right thing. It’s like driving at 20 mph in a 20 mph zone - it really winds people up. That said it might be a different set of rules on the US version of twitter, I don’t know.
The trouble with streaming is that often what you want to watch or listen to isn't available. Either the band fell out with Spotify and removed their music, or Netflix won't show any Fellini films, or the film isn't available in your country or stupid stuff like that.
That's exactly why I have my own Plex server
Really great video, one of your best.
This was a great video; thank you. I think we might be around the same age, and for me I get very sad when I see that chart of music sales around 0:45. I feel lucky that I grew up in a time when I could get excited about buying and listening to a new record -- there was something a bit magical about a spinning black disc or shuttling tape transforming into musical sounds. It also encouraged you to sit down for 45 minutes or so and just be lost in the experience. I'm sure other things have replaced this, but I feel bad for kids who grew up never experiencing that -- both the physical object and the time set aside to listen to a whole album.
Yes the idea of buying a physical object full of music - much of which you have never heard and didn't choose may seem utterly bizarre to future generations.
I still don't understand why Sony dropped support for Audio-CDs on the playstation. The PS3 was the last one which could play them. I'm sure the drives in the PS4 and PS5 are able to read them and uncompressed audio shouldn't be any problem for them. Apparently no one is interested. At least every X-Box can play Audio-CDs but most owners will probably never try it. Well... maybe I answered my own question.
I'm glad you mentioned this as it was pointed out in the comments that I'd forgotten about Consoles (which I did). However if as you say only one model from the three top manufacturers' six most recent machines can play CDs then I'm only slightly ahead of the facts. Check back here in another 8 years or so and my information will probably be right.
The only format left now to release music on is a Gakken plastic cup/candle. Even if you tried you probably couldn't play one of those...
It's perfect for white noise & sleeping.
Awww you made a Toni Moan character doing the job of the Word Paperclip lol. You big softie
The Paperclip tip guy ... wow, that's a computing blast from the past. 👍🏻
What a wonderful old device, and I love that people are still making media for it even if it is reproductions and novelty albums. A shame your seller didn't want to show any pictures, his collection would make a fine museum.
It made me think that there must be people all over with museum quality collections in their homes that will never see the light of day. Most of my stuff is random junk - but when someone specialises like that it's a sight to behold.
"I'm down to my last candle!" Even after their era for music playing was over, specialized designs of cylinder phonographs lived on as dictation machines, up to at least the 1950s.
Ah yes the Dictabelt for one. That's still on the cards for some long off future date - but it's probably better I start with the original.
Ahh I've been looking forward to this for a while! Ready to get comfy with a coffee and enjoy over brunch here soon. Crazy timing too, I just listened to a story on NPR this morning about wax cylinders and the latest efforts to digitize them using lasers. I've never even heard the format mentioned on national radio before, what bizarre odds of it happening the very same day as this long-desired Techmoan video... Link for the curious https://www.npr.org/2022/04/05/1090819310/mystery-recordings-will-now-be-heard-for-the-first-time-in-about-100-years
Very odd timing indeed.
I always appreciate the effort and expense that goes into these, especially when you know they won't have mass appeal. I definitely like the novelty of old media but I realised recently that my parents don't have any way to play their CD collection in the house. It might be easy to fix but it led me down a rabbit hole of programming a 10-button 'jukebox' controller to operate Spotify on a Windows computer, just a fun project.
A wild Creative Mat appears!
I find these videos of the truly vintage machines fascinating. The technology moved on so fast from these cylinders, through 78s to LPs etc. Thanks Mat!
I only knew one person who owned an Edison Cylinder player and that was Roger Cook who went on to form Chord Electronics Ltd, and he never played it but as a display item only. I was sucker enough to buy the Limited Edition 4 LP set of the Beatles White album, and it is still unplayed in it's box although I still have several vinyl players from Technics including an SP10 MK2. A nice novelty player Mat. Thanks for the video and now I will go back and see what the paid promotion was.
I've got a lot of sealed records, tapes, blu-ray, DVDs and games - all being saved for a rainy day that never seems to come, even through there have been a lot of rainy days.
I love the relaxed pacing of this one. Anti Zack Gobshite. Enjoy your breather, Mat!
He'd hate this - I never once mentioned 'hitting the bell'.
Thank you so much for showing and sharing this with us. The mechanism on that thing is gorgeous - I am fascinated by this sort of thing. When you stopped the cylinder of the male singer 😛, I envisioned the clip you made of Dad Moan with headphones in a sound booth saying, 'This sounds like a load of s***t. Hello?' I like the new release being played on it, though. Some young'uns will ask, 'Where's the bass boost?' and others will say, 'That's so steampunk.' I will quote Inigo Montoya by saying, 'You keep saying that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.' 😆 "Corrective Bearded Mat" is brilliant; I ♥️ so much. Novelty pfft... I am the proud listener of my very own record players, cassette decks, MiniDisc, and reel-to-reel machines. 😃
Any guess as to what his beard is made from - it took me a little while to think of how best to do it easily.
I concur with the others who love the use of Tonie Mat to interject important notes. But I think his official name should be Grandad Mat, especially now that he has grown a beard. While I have no need for one of these devices ["Is this a wind-up?!"] I definitely appreciate learning about the history and find your ideas about the recent past and future of physical music media thought-provoking and probably quite accurate.
You know I never manage to formulate names for anything - the puppets are still dad, son and wife.
I like the addition of Mini-Matt, there to correct you from post. 👍
I'm in my mid forties, and own and still buy CDs, but I only have the one DVD drive I use to rip to FLAC. Digital is just so convenient.
Great video. Funny have two record players but no cd player (apart from laptop) not even in car. Was wondering if the cylinders wore down like 78s, might google it. Waiting for someone to release new film on laserdisc not that a got a player
Records will in time outlive CDs as a playable medium...it'll just take a while.
Fucking mini Mat. I love it.
Great to have something interesting to watch later. Enjoy your time off!
Love the use of Mini Mat And enjoy your days off.
stay hydrated homie!