Wright Brother Debate, Probably falling through

Greg, I was looking for your video on the Wright Brothers. It seems to have disappeared from your channel. I have a neighbor who has just finished a book on the WB, claiming that they were frauds. It’s historical fiction, but the claim is meant to be taken seriously. The book is to be published soon. My thought was to send him the video and invite him to take up your challenge to a debate. But, also no video…

I think ghosting is a low blow underhanded way to go! I espouse my half-baked opps and then see the light, retract if required and always apologize?

Ghosting in general is a head-scratcher. Deciding not to do it and backing out, sure, there are a million reasons someone might do that. But why would you just stop communicating? Well, keep to the high road, don't name names or start drama. But lets assume they looked into it and backed out, and for whatever reason ghosting is just what people do nowadays. In that case you want to discourage backing out. Under those assumptions, the most likely thing is people looked into it, probably watched your adverse-yaw video, and decided to nope out. It is reasonable to expect a debate will make them look bad- you are claiming first pick of the topic to defend and the one you are picking is the recognized odds-on established favorite to boot. Anyone arguing with you is automatically the underdog, and the only wind at their backs would be the general underdog sentiment (and probably a bit of support from the "anything not-American is better than anything American" crowd, but not sure how prevalent that sentiment is in technical circles.) To mitigate that, you could try adding some language about rules and keeping things friendly. Maybe even set some ground rules that allow some sort of honorable out (if you can think of a good one - i have no idea what an "honorable out short of capitulation" for a failed assertion looks like). Maybe say you'd like a moderator and they get sole control of that; they'll pick a friend, but that won't really change the logic of the arguments so it shouldn't hurt you too much.

I don't get it either. It would have been fun!

As someone else said maybe the "facts got in the way". But really, we all need to learn to be better at acknowledging when we are wrong or not capable enough to do something. I would certainly love to debate you on this, but I do not have the precious time to devote to the research. Plus, I am a happy supporter of the North Carolina "First in Flight" license plate and Ohio's "Birthplace of Aviation" moniker, so I would not do it justice. More importantly, I am not good at all on a recording and I do not have the abilities my brain often attempts to convince me that I have.

I bet they started doing thier own research and facts started getting in the way of thier preconceived beliefs. I am ashamed to have made statements in my life that after debate I questioned my own beliefs and was in the situation of going back to my debatee and apologizing. I wish we as humans would be more willing to self analyze. As I am now retired because of physical reasons I have been doing self evaluation and realize my failures I blamed on others or in environment was entirely on me. Its humbling and I have tried to go back in some cases to make apologies.

Greg - Competency is the scariest thing in the world, your email just oozed competency and I am sure when they asked their friends they were told they would be destroyed in a debate with you so they panicked. And also it seems they didn't have the guts to even decline like a real person.

I think they backed out because they already realized they lost before they started. You called them out and they disappeared.

Not exactly relevant, but: I’d really like to see a debate about the whole “ the P-51 was the only plane with the range to escort heavy bombers deep into Germany during WWII “ fairy tale. I see it over & over & over. A lot of the series or documentaries still claiming this are well made, but they just don’t want to admit, or don’t know the real story.

You called their bluff, too bad there wasn't a tangible ante going into the discussion. Or possibly they did a deeper analysis on their theory and started to realize how big a hole they have been digging. I certainly would thrice before diving in on a topic with you. Mt research skills are, um, lame😃

Suggestion -- don't focus on being 100% right and nailing it -- focus on education, entertainment, and recognition of various points of view, that is one of your key value propositions. A video like this can't be about winning and losing, that prospect probably scares people off. A strategy to consider is putting aside your strong views/positions with the benefit of creating something interesting to watch where everyone gets something but not everything.

Me wearing my deerstalker cap says that since they reached out to you, then ghosted you after your response, it must be in your response. I see two possibilities. 1: Your response enlightened them and they realized they were wrong, it embarrassed them, thus they ghosted you. I find this unlikely, since they reached out to you and must have thought about it on their own beforehand. 2. Your response offended them. Your response has two elements. 2a. You list the two main candidates, Dumont and Lilienthal. This might be seen as you controlling the narrative and they don't like being told what to do. Youtubers don't have small discreet egos. Being told in advance who YOU think are the best choices rubs their noses the wrong way. 2b. You also list several also-rans. Besides being another example of controlling the narrative, you may have relegated their favored candidate to second class before the debate even begins. This probably bruises delicate Youtuber egos even more than 2a. My suggestion is to drop the suggested candidates. Don't mention any by name. Don't mention main candidates and also-rans. Limit your response to asking for a brief outline so you can prepare in advance. Treat their request as a conversational opening, not a formal debate request. Ask if they have any videos on the subject already, and ask which of your videos they have watched and want to discuss.

It does seem as though the guys who initially wanted to debate determined it was too much work to build a reasonable case to support their position and refute yours. They may also have felt that looking weak or unknowledgeable in the debate would cost them subscribers. It is a rare Youtuber who will admit they are wrong about something, especially on the technical side where know-it-all-ness is what the channel is about.

That is odd behavior. There may be other explanations for their lack of response, but most likely the reality of putting up a reasonable debate with you struck home after their, and perhaps ill-considered, initial acceptance. A good debate, even if they lose, is still good for exposure and is the kind of advertising you can’t buy. Your offer for a 2 on 1 with either of those gentlemen you suggested shows real openness on your part for a good, spirited debate. I’d say keep yourself out there for this debate, and someone will turn up with the confidence and skills to participate.

If one is dealing in facts and documentation rather than mythology, jingoism and the chamber of commerce I think it is pretty clear who invented the airplane. You are also on record with winning presentations on this topic, as well as others. That probably is a consideration.

Maybe they saw a photo of the propeller that Dumont used and had a moment of clarity.

I think you're going to have trouble finding someone who both takes the technical side of the Wright's work seriously and thinks someone else beat them to the punch. Since so much national pride is at stake, this is a crank magnet. Realistically, you need a professional debater (not a historian or aviation enthusiast) who's willing to sit down and weave enough weak threads from the Dumont tall tales into a cohesive story. The less personally invested they are, the better they will do.

You are so well spoken and you say they have small channels, so my guess is they didn't want to chance embarrassment and therefore whatever YouTube audience they may have. I know that you are a respectful debater, but I'm pretty sure the facts are on your side with this debate and it would take guts and a lot of confidence to debate you on it. Just my theory.

Seems very bizarre behavior. The Santos Dumont case seems to be more nationalistic than scientific. I'm a sales guy in the O&G industry and visit Brazil frequently. I'll never forget the time we met with a high-level Petrobras executive and within three minutes of introductions to our mixed-nationality group, he pulled out a big book from the shelf the title of which was something like: "Santos Dumont, Inventor of the Airplane." He proudly opened the book and showed us the pictures and said we need to know that it was a Brazilian, not the Wright Brothers, who was first. I smiled said of course and thought can we get back to the reason we are here?

Greg, A lot of people like to talk, but few care to have what they’re saying challenged.

Maybe they do some more research to prepare for the debate and then realize they were wrong?