The Problem of Disinformation (E334)
This week we are joined by Dr. Olivier Jutel, a lecturer in the Department of Media, Film & Communication at the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. His scholarly focus is in communication studies and media theory, particularly around populism, digital media, political economy, and critical theory.
Travis and Julian chat with Dr. Jutel about his iconoclastic take on the paradigms that have dominated U.S. technology and communications policy since 2016.
Olivier argues that fear of foreign influence has been leveraged by a coalition of Silicon Valley firms, national‑security agencies and allied think‑tanks to deflect structural reform of platforms. Drawing on Cold‑War communication theory, this coalition frames all online conflict as “information warfare,” treating citizens as passive targets for behavioral manipulation while ignoring deeper political‑economic drivers of democratic decay. Jutel retraces the military origins of mass‑communication research, critiques Shoshana Zuboff’s “surveillance capitalism” thesis, and dissects the role of high‑profile disinfo professionals whose methods, he contends, don’t question the core assumptions of tech industry platforms and national‑security priorities.
Olivier concludes that while this disinformation framework is past its heyday, its war‑like view of social life persists, empowering actors such as Palantir while sidelining antitrust and public‑interest remedies. The solution? A shift toward true democratic governance of digital infrastructure.
Dr Olivier Jutel at University of Otago
https://www.otago.ac.nz/mfco/staff/olivier-jutel
Thanks for subscribing to QAA on patreon.
Editing by Corey Klotz. Theme by Nick Sena. Additional music by Pontus Berghe. Theme Vocals by THEY/LIVE (https://instagram.com/theyylivve / https://sptfy.com/QrDm). Cover Art by Pedro Correa: (https://pedrocorrea.com)
QAA was known as the QAnon Anonymous podcast.
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Comments (111)
I like this one a lot. The guy is good.
Ironically, the nuance and the discrepancies are important *because* of how real the threat of foreign disinformation is. Remaining steadfast in a commitment to honesty is the best we can do. I say that as one of the people who has had to slowly and gently deprogram their “Ukraine footage is CIA crisis actors” spouse over the course of years. How to re-skepticize a “skeptic”…skeptically? 😵💫
i'm finally listening to the last few minutes of this episode: travissss i was taught in high school by the man who created the phrase "intelligent design" 😭 have you ever heard of the film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed?
Great episode. Could you guys do one covering how disinformation is making govt employees literal targets (eg CDC shooting)?
AUNTIE COOLETTE is preparing herself for a world changing event in a week and half!!! She said something big is gonna happen and there is no going back - she is currently in “ISOLATION IN PREPARATION” and posting every day. You gotta go check in on her!!!
black lodge mentioned
Love the show, been listening and patronizing since 2018 or 2019, but could only make it 30 minutes into this episode. Your guest is full of shit about a lot of things, over-simplifies, and…what’s the word for when someone takes some Twitter posts from a handful of grifter accounts and then generalizes it to an entire political ideology? Whatever that word is, he’s doing it. Anyway, everyone is allowed a huge miss every now and then.
Travis “well I mean Israel does have the right to defend itself Julian so dont say anything”
Not that familiar with Deleuze, but I have a feeling about 5-10% of the audience gets a hard on when he gets mentioned.
Finally putting this on, while I work on some stuff, over an hour and a half into it, really into it, but got derailed for a minute because Hold up they call documentaries “docos” in some countries???? I mean, no judgement, but I have never heard that before
Australia and New Zealand yes. am of the former persuasion and personally it's habitual
Had to tap out on this one about halfway through, unfortunately. Felt a little too abstract for my brain to handle
Great episode. Six days ago though, where are our two episodes a week? It's been inconsistent lately and sucks because you are the best pod.
I think I broke the pod
I’m reading in a Patreon comment section. What have I become?
A big fat losrr! Welcome to club. More Liv Agar!
Lovvvve this episode!
Chiming in as an educator: media literacy is incredibly important, precisely so people can spot the kind of BS being discussed here. The ruling class infighting, the manufactured consent, the Tech Bro myth making, etc., are all legible because of *media and information literacy*. Also, weird to alternate between "the sources matter" and "'follow the money' is bs." Lots of contradictory statements.
one of the fun response I got from Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins was to say "OJ cited Max Blumenthal therefore he is sus", ie. Source more important than the info. And then when some commenters said "You worked for Atlantic Council for 3 years" , he was like "what's your point?"
Truly. It’s an ur text of this whole realm. Really should be read by anyone doing any kind of podcasting or self directed research in these brain melted swamps that have taken over the world.
Disappointed to see the attack on section 230 go unchallenged. You'd find common ground with both Biden and Trump on that one.
I love that this guy does the Julian thing of "everyone I dislike or who does things I disagree with is a CIA operative", and throws out his own "bakes" for the trouble, thats cool.
Imagine a Great British Baking Show -style show where contestants bake their best conspiracy for a given topic and the hosts critique each and award a winner. Rockatansky Handshake
This was super fun, would gobble up a miniseries. Is there a North American expat scene in Dunedin and if so are Dunedinites doing the gringo protests yet?
Totally missed the WaPo doxxer sit down, can anyone share the timeframe of that episode definitely need to hear this!
they talk about it in ep 136, but they never talk to the journalist on the podcast as far as i remember. i think they meant they found and talked to the real guy who is stock photo fake-travis (premium ep 152)
Lmao "Nobody was mad when bicycles were invented". Some people were so mad they put up traps like razorwire between trees! Some were mad for completely irrational reasons like how it would turn women into ugly infertile half-men whores. Others were mad for more valid reasons such as it understandably being kinda scary that everyone's suddenly zipping around really fast hitting pedestrians and getting into other accidents. No bike lanes, no helmets. Hell, a lot of people STILL hate cyclists.
Dogging episode, you say. Are you visiting the UK?
I need Jake to make a video game analogy to make it make sense 😂 but I will still try (sincerely, a university drop out with severe ADHD)
Liv Agar
‘Tis stupid
Them: "Hey babe, what are you listening to?" Me: "They interviewed an award-winning international journalist about the horrors of capitalism and the police state. ACAB babe, acab" Them: "I'm not real and you should take you meds, babe"
🤣
Didn't know any of that so thanks for the update. He certainly is a puzzling character. As for his activities lately,he "avoided the question"? Well, if it is the case that he has fallen out with Putin , perhaps he should avoid being near high-rise windows !
( reply to Liam Harte about Surkov )
Excellent episode, great guest. I'd like to hear Olivier talk about deep state infighting further with Aaron Good.
Tangential, but if anyone hasn’t read TechGnosis by Erik Davis… do so immediately. Best primer on understanding basically everything about the intersection of technology and cult spirituality. And hugely prescient at multiple points.
I'm always shocked it isn't more widely read
Loving my "Friends" at The "Rand" Cooperation.
It's my "cheat" in my relationship. Except I'm not in a relationship in my cheat is a Spiral in to Death I'm very depressed.
I resubscribed just for this episode, it was so on point. Keep it up and please mutiny Travis (respectfully)
Fracking is terrible for water and the methane release is awful for climate, you fucking dullard.
I nearly threw my phone at the wall, I had to take off my headphones and be like Wtf and just blink for a few minutes. Like speak for yourself dipshit.
I'm 20 minutes in and have no idea what they are talking about, or even the topic of the episode.
Okay glad I'm not alone. This is gobbledygook of the highest order
Having worked at two of the three institutions which this nerd maligned when he claimed that "Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab, Bellingcat, and Oxford Internet Observatory" were "chock full of spooks" I get the sense that he doesn't really fully care about the factuality of what he's talking about, and is more interested in a vibes-based approach to an understanding of the world. I don't have a whole lot of good things to say about the counter disinfo field, but this guy is an idiot and I'm very disappointed to see him on the show.
He’s certainly not an idiot, but agree on the vibes-based approach. Before this episode I thought Renee Diresta was a reliable ally in information war, but I’d no idea her background before the SIO/EIP. Her involvement with the counter misinfo campaign in Alabama senate race is troubling.
incredible guest writer to join ranks w devin (multiple mentions), caio, annie, & others on the roster! please bring him back again soon - great discussion!
More Devin OShea callbacks! STL finest
we love to see it
I totally appreciate the intellectual conversation but it’s hard getting over the sense that everything everyone is doing is wrong because one philosopher said something 20 years ago. It’s a bit trite IMHO.
And I'll go against the grain and say I didn't enjoy hearing this guest read (quickly) from his prepared diatribe uninterrupted for 40 minutes straight.
Travis on this is some of his best work, seriously tho. It feels like he’s really holding himself back. Impressed by his brain but so not jealous of that burden
What I learned this evening is that my higher self is just the aggregation of my scraped data. 🙏
Great episode. Yes, it does turn out that if you omit a critique of capitalism (particularly the “need” to turn a profit), that you can make a profit as an academic or pundit.
At Praguer University, maybe. There isn’t a serious Philosophy or Political Science department in higher ed that doesn’t feature significant coursework critiquing capitalism.
Loving the Julian branch of the tree bringing some new smarties into the fold!
"You can't hold hands with God while masturbating."? Yes I can. It's totally hot too.
"Jesus Is My Wankman"? ... "What Would Jesus Do (To My Balls)?"
JULIAN PLEASE MAKE TRAVIS WATCH THE CRACK CONNOISSEUR LIFELOG x FACEBOOK EDIT
I can’t find it but I think it’s the one set to “all of the lights”
Was planning on reading some Pomerantsev at some point. Is it worth it or will I be afflicted by Surkov Derangement Syndrome?!
Apparently Pomerantzev stole his shtick from a far better writer, according to Yasha Levine
All analysis these days is about "them." And "they." And what they do. And what they think. To them. To who? Them. They. Those guys.
Are we calling documentaries "docos" now? I don't mind; it's just that nobody told me.
Just kiwi/Aussie things I assume.
Not going to lie, when you guys kept mentioning Eric Davis I was hoping you were talking about the World Series champion and Reds HoFer. A little disappointed.
However,can we recognise that the Kremlin still operates out of a play book of sowing disinformation and amplifying division?And let's not ignore the GRU agents causing havoc in our " beautiful Western democracies" (!) We are more than capable of doing that ourselves,thank you very much,Mr. Putin ! So not agreeing with everything,it was still a great episode. Keep up the good work !
It's also so telling that this field, (meant to explain social decay and predicated on the idea of a vast multinational conspiracy), ends up coining these incredibly individual diagnoses. They explain a social theory of deception and arrive at a new (and not emprical) mental illness, and prescribe a freemium brain teaser app. Gfy
Great in-depth discussion,a lot to unpack there. I did enjoy your Surkov episode and admittedly may have believed a bit too much of the hype about his influence. Haven't heard of anything of him for ages so he's either completely obsolete or pretty damn discreet! Still would recommend to " check this out ".! It's a BBC sounds doc on him called "The Puppet Master " by Gabriel Gatehouse who incidentally did the radio series and book "The Coming Storm " on QAnon etc.
Surkov’s a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Putin fired him in 2020, and he was arrested for embezzlement in 2022. Whether he’s still under arrest isn’t clear. He granted L’Express an interview a few months ago, which said “No one knows what Sourkov is doing today. In the interview he gave us, he avoided the question.”
Good god that auto Q was dystopian
with intent to harm
I liked some of Pomersanev's writing on Surkov. Maybe I was just putting my own ideology on it, but Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible works well as a descriptor a capitalist society in decline and a mirror to of American state collapse.
Looking at the publication dates, I'm going to assume Trump derrangement syndrome
Solid episode, only one nitpick though, Russia IS committing genocide in Ukraine per the ICC definition (open calls to eliminate the Ukrainian identity and forcibly transferring children of one group to another, both by their own open admission) and the news media isn’t even reporting on that either. It seems like the legacy news is so dedicated to maintaining the status quo that they are just refusing to admit that genocide isn’t a thing that has happened other than in Nazi Germany.
EVERYTHING I BELIEVE IS RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION
fracking isn't even REAL
This was a great episode, I really appreciated this convo which clarifies a lot of things I've come to think over the past couple years about what this discipline misdiagnoses and obscures. It was interesting to learn about the Christchurch Call because a very similar initiative called "the Eradicate Hate Summit" was launched in response to the Tree of Life Massacre in my state, and the result also seems to be networking and collaborations between police, military intelligence, national security , disinfo researchers, the aspen institute and the ADL. I was also glad to finally see a bit of recognition that there's one specific kind of propaganda/"disinfo"/radicalized speech we are all awash in 24/7 which people in the field refuse to "debunk" or speak about (and some, including some friends of the pod spread or collaborate with these narratives) and it's in service of Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people. It's a shame Travis reacted so defensively to this point, this whole world of researchers and commentators will need to account for this very apparent and often completely intentional blind spot and what it has led to.
monsieur view
I took this class . I did ok
jake better be missing only to work on more spectral voyager
It's summer dawg, let a man grill and or chill
Love how Jake stayed up in his bedroom for this one while mom and dad had a fight downstairs.
Walter Duranty would love this episode.
My Australian accent never gets mistaken for Kiwi, people always clock that I'm from the bigger, shitter one
"kind of like an evil version of our accint"
Great ep, super interesting and thought provoking. Unrelatedly Dr. Jutel's use of "check this out" almost as a filler word is really funny to me and I'm gonna start saying it
Omg yawn
omg did you know you're not duty bound to listen
Yeah! Otago represent! A little bit of homesickness with my morning QAA.
Yo your name inverted is Prince Paul, like my fav hip hop producer
What’s the name of the episode with the Washington Post interview?
Great stuff. I hadn’t realised that Zuboff lifted Surveillance Capitalism from John Bellamy Foster and Robert McChesney. I drew on that for a course I used to teach on capitalism at the other NZ university on the South Island- Canterbury in Christchurch.
The arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward Julien turning Travis into a leftist.
Sometimes I worry the band is going to break up.
Really really appreciate this. It's a good corrective for a lot of bullshit that I fell victim too for a time. ANd I especially appreciate the pushback on the cynicism of the whole idea of information warfare.
He smarter than me
May I join you on this bench? I came here to see if I was the only one feeling a little .. slow.
My home town DUNEDIN Nz so cool
There's a Dunedin in New Zealand? That's funny.
where's the other one???
This guys keeping it real
This ep feels like a return to the early days. An absolute info dump of an episode. Extremely interesting. Can’t wait to listen to it a second time.
Good topic, thanks Travis
Hot dog, this is right in the area of stuff I’m super interested in, and coincidentally I have a long manual labor thing to do tomorrow.
QAA pairs so well with working with my hands I love it for that
Liv agar
‘Tis stupid
Hell yeah kiwis
what's good neighbourino