She Must Never Know

I assumed Bubbles went for "their" because Yay seems to have reverted back to "we" rather than "I" - but it works out the same.

Well, on the subject of pronouns, the new Imperial Radch book came out this week, and it's chock full of pronoun fun, with at least 9 mentioned (though I think just 6 actually used), and the fun that it can change depending on what language is being spoken (e.g. Radchaai isn't a gendered language and uses ‘she’ as the universal third-person singular pronoun). Great series of books by Ann Leckie, they've won Hugo and Nebula awards.

I misgender actual living bio people sometimes. I am a kind person and an ally. I'm also old and have decades-deep ruts in my behaviors. Makes sense to me that fictional characters would also make mistakes. Also, doesn't seem to be touchy about that particular thing. EDIT: I wonder how my queer fellow QC fans feel about Ann Leckie's Ancillary books, in which one culture calls every sapient being "she" and has no cultural concept of gender at all (but do of course understand anatomy) to the point where anatomy-based grammatical gender is incredibly confusing to them.

Deferring to the trans/nonbinary folks who've weighed in, I think it might have been nice if you'd built a world in which no one makes gendered assumptions...but since you haven't, really, starting here would be hard to parse. It's hard to have someone say "they" and have that fact carry the weight of establishing a norm for an entire fictitious universe...esp. if that hasn't necessarily been the case previously. And I also agree with those who see both gendered presentation *and* projection of past mean-rich-girl behavior as implicit in Anh's choice. The less subtle point, though, is what most people have already said: it's good to model a gentle correction of unintentional misgendering and have that transaction handled gracefully and with no fuss on either side.

As transfem enby please keep it, a good guide how to navigate that interaction

I think it's pretty fair and I read it more or less like your first hand, fwiw

I know the timeline of QC is variable to say the least, but I think its also safe to assume that humans would still be terrible at pronouns even with the genderfluidity of AI being around a lot. Still seems to be a "relatively" new phenomenon of AI existence and being so common, people would be bad about/still assholes about it. Seems reasonable to leave it in.

If I can add my two cents here, I honestly feel this is well handled and presented. Now, my two cents aren't worth a whole lot, because I'm a cis dude, but many of my loved ones are some form of GNC and this is how they prefer it be done when it occurs. Including those who are perceived as the gender due to their presentation that doesn't align with their actual gender. If nothing else, this serves as just how corrections ought to be in the instance of someone starting with the wrong pronouns without malice.

I think I am literally the first commenter to say this, but I didn't like it. It felt jarring, and it felt a little sad to have QC break its previous streak of never once (as far as I can recall) having on screen misgendering.

Trans folk here, echoing the other trans folks saying that I appreciate the inclusion of the correction! I might have paced it a lil differently: "Ugh, what is her problem?" "Their problem." "Oh, thanks. But what is their problem?" But I do especially love the "Anh unquestionably correct pronoun usage for a person she's pissed at" bit - we aint out here misgendering even our worst enemies.

Honestly even if that was the norm in this world, Anh lived such a restrictive/self-centered life that it would still make sense for her to slip here regardless. So I think either one works!

Not going to get involved in the Disc Horse about pronouns. I'm just hoping that Roko educates Yay about boundaries some more. That whole scene between Yay and Anh made me less sympathetic to Yay- they really seemed to be backsliding.

Jacques Idk how often you peruse your comments, but I found your work in the Summer of 2013 after having come out for about a year. I spent four or five full days reading from 001 to what was current at the time (maybe 3500?) and have read since. Your comic has been practically, the only constant in my life going that far back. I can't thank you enough for that <3 Yeah I think this is a great strip and you got it right <3

I have been trying to promote they/them, or ey/em as default, but I can't even consistently do that. I keep trying.

I personally appreciate depictions of people being allies and socially supporting preference over depictions of worlds where everyone knows. I like the notion of a world with no one dealing with misgendering in theory, but it feels too disparate from my lived experience for me to fully relate to. I don't intend to speak for anyone except myself

I mean I seriously doubt the QC universe, which is still somewhat new to sentient robots running around like this, would be infallible in this regard. Additionally, Ahn is a dummy (not malicious, just a dummy) and even though her father designs AI bodies, I wouldn't be surprised if she has extremely limited experience with AIs in general (and not just sexually as she's mentioned before.)

The buttfor is functioning optimally because the henway is calibrated correctly.

Please don’t change it. It’s a great reminder of how best to respond to mis gendering.

Don’t change it. It feels organic the way it is.

Dammit! Calibrate the BUTTFOR ANYWAY! I WANNA SEE BUBBLES GET IT ALIGNED RIGHT NOW!

I feel like internally/mentally gendering a person based off physical cues is pretty common in humans, and a difficult habit to break. People like to find patterns in things, and apply those patterns to the world around them, so it makes sense to me that if Anh sees a humanoid AI, she would tend to assign a gender to them based on her perception. Being gently corrected on it, and then actually listening and using the correct pronouns moving forward, feels like a natural, real-world occurance.

I think her misgendering Yay makes sense. Yes, some robots look like a fire hydrant, so when Anh sees one that looks, even vaguely, like a gender she's aware of, she'd default to that. Not in anger or being rude, just "oh, this one looks a bit like me, she must be she", then realizing and correcting while still rightfully being angry with them shows she's not doing it maliciously, but maybe out of a bad habit or just making a mistake, as all people do.

Bear monster hoodie doesn't have the same effect on Ann as Faye!

As an ADHD person, I genuinely have a hard time remembering pronouns, so I absolutely appreciate it when people don't make a big deal about correcting me. I am honestly trying!

Bubbles continues to be cute in frame 5

My opinion as a straight white guy cisperson is that I think it helps to see people making mistakes due to a lack of knowledge, and it not being a big deal to either party when that person is given that additional knowledge.

As a straight cis white guy in his 50s I always appreciate being gently corrected on this kind of thing. I myself keep mentally misgendering Yay as a she but that's only because I find them attractive and if I'm attracted to them that means they must present as female because like I said I'm straight and I have mentioned I'm heterosexual, right? So very heterosexual. Yes. That's me. Straight up.

I can totally picture Yay flouncing

As a cis guy, my attitude is "call me what you like, just don't call me late for supper" but maybe I can afford to be like that since I seem to be with the dominant faction. I do make every effort to address people in the form they prefer, or by their names. It's only polite. I'm Canadian. Sorry.

I'm leaning towards keeping it for two reasons: Anh is easily self absorbed and (rightfully) upset enough that she might go with that pronoun even if they/them is the default for most in the QC world, and while Yay taking the Rin Penrose approach to pronouns is very on point for them, I wonder how much of that was their spread out mind to a multiplicity of physical forms (and presumably some kind of cloud-based version too?).

Given how often people misgender Yay on here, I say it's realistic and leave it.

Personally, I see a lot of people defaulting to “they/them” for fully trans people whom they know, and have always known fully transitioned. They/them isn’t really a safe default. It’s also a way to misgender people whose gender performance is, in one’s own mind, inadequate.

I think Anh making the mistake is realistic and should be kept in, but, in accordance with ancient tradition, we do have to throw a juice box at her. 🫳ᯓ🧃

Also enby here, I agree that this strikes the right balance. It’s a good reminder to present-day readers while still picturing an optimistic future/alternate universe where it’s not a big deal.

As another trans person, I say keep it.

I just realised how funny it is that both Yay and Bubbles have highly advanced remote-sensing capabilities and so are constantly reporting to their friends about things that just happened on the other side of walls etc :)

Guess wrong, get corrected, life continues seems to be a healthy interaction.

i wish people around me would gently correct others about my pronouns like that! sometimes it's hard to get the correction into the convo at all!

So when I read the strip I thought: Can't wait until this goes live on the page so I can link share it to someone who has had a very disappointing experience with a community recently that they believed to be allies and who have messed up bad, repeatedly. I'd like to show them there's some good people out there. This just feels good and natural and right. So yeah, keep it. There is an argument to be made that Anh would default to they/them based on Yay using plural We for themself/themselves, or because AIs don't give a crap about gender, as mentioned, but most human form AIs we've met thus far did use he/him or she/her pronouns, didn't they? Like, I can construct pros and cons, but nothing changes the fact that my first thought when reading it was: "Oh, yeah, this is great, this feels right."

I think it's fine as it is. As you and others have said, it's important that it's just an information that is readily accepted. And it resonates in the current world, which I think is what's important.

the important part is Anh didn't make a big deal about it, in either direction which believe me, is a good thing. one of my favorite parts of finding out Claire is trans is no one makes a big deal about it, she's trans, that's just part of who she is. ~<3

As a trans nonbinary person I think the way it’s handled here is perfect. Please keep it as-is.

Enby here, I correct people all the time, but usually I only have to do it once. Getting this dynamic portrayed in media is very important, as some people imagine trans* people as throwing a fit once we get misgendendered once, which is not the case.

The only thing I want to add to all of this is that Bubbles is a perfectly wonderful, intelligent, sensitive person, and a treasure to have as a friend.

Not that you need my vote, but from my own experience with trans friends, I'd say this was all spot on; Ahn made an assumption based on her perception of Yay's presentation, Bubbles corrected her, Ahn proceeded on with the new information without comment.

I also vote leave it. Yes, the robots are genderless, in principle. But i think it's pretty clear they want gender, or they would have androgynous bodies.

I’ve done that once with my trans-woman transplant buddy, and she accepted my simple apology. So I think it’s fine to leave the strip as is.

Let's put it this way: thinking takes energy, so we humans make a lot of assumptions. Like assuming someone that looks like the woman, also is preferring to be called she. I don't think it's strange to misgender in that way, even in-universe, because, let's look at it, how many other AIs with gendered attributes have not been using the corresponding pronouns? So far, as a cis-man, I have only been misgendered once, in the chat of an online game. The most annoying part was definitely the other person kept apologising, despite being told by me to not worry. And it wasn't even me that did the correcting, rather someone doing like Bubbles did here. And, returning to laziness, while it is annoying to be misgendered by mistake, I think how people react when it's been pointed out that they did a mistake, is what matters. We all make mistakes daily, some double down, others apologise annoyingly much, and others correct their mistake and don't make a scene, and so on. Anhd, to be honest, the number of people that have had a problem spelling Anh's name correctly, proves my point. Or my girlfriend's, her name also ends with nh.

I think in a world with sentient robots it absolutely would make sense for some segments of the population to no longer assume gendered pronouns for others – and that it's absolutely in character for Anh not to have been one of them, so far.

Also in the keep it the way it is camp !

I honestly didn't see it as a misgendering and more of a comment about Yay's, uh, plurality. 'Their' is a collective pronoun and I thought Yay was a massively parallel consciousness

I'm one of those weird enbies who uses ze/zir pronouns because they/them doesn't fit, either. What pronouns would AIs choose? Where do they learn gender? Does the whole creche do a field trip? Like May says, [many of] the AIs get caught up in the humanity of sexual drive, how do they construct gender from there? Who benefits from them having (un)defined gender roles?

I have seen QC readers in the wild misgendering Yay (or arguing that Yay only uses they/them to reflect being multiply embodied), so I say keep it. Some folks clearly need it spelled out.

As a they/them myself, most people still go off of visuals. And Anh was sheltered in many ways. I mean, she didn't know the buttfor joke! I think it works just fine and certainly isn't offensive to me in any way. I think it's a good little reminder for people that it is that easy to make a mistake and correct it with zero fanfare. :-)

Another trans person throwing her 2 cents in, but I think it works fine as-is. To me it tracks better with Anh's personality that she's still learning to respect people n stuff. It'd feel incongruous with her backstory and parental figures if she was just already good at gender stuff.

I like it. If for nothing else than it modeling good behaviour.

I'd say leave it. Its good etiquette for the real world. And as far as 'referring to sentient robots as 'they' by default'? Human society have thought of gender in binary terms for so long, they're still going to mess up. How long have there been sentient robots walking out in public? A decade or two? Going to take humanity a few more generations to adapt I would say. At least with how accepted sentient robots seem to be, humans probably are going to adapt eventually, which is more than I can say about the real world...

Can Faye blush? Panel 5 might trigger it.

As the 300th trans person to chime in here, the misgendering and correction feels so normal that I was surprised you even commented on it. The idea of the sentient robots, "[looking] at 'gender' the way a dog looks at 'a fire hydrant'," is so goddamn funny that the rest of the world deserves to see it. I am very much on team, "fuck your stupid fucking power structure."

It's realistic! I'm cis and this is how being corrected goes 9/10. I also default to they/them for the most part (certain circles that I work t You could even argue (slightly) shows Anh's somewhat insulated upbringing if you're going with the "wouldn't people just default to them." if someone complained. Maybe richer folks lean towards not having to interact with robots.

I’m going to sound dumb, but I always thought Yay was a “they” because of who they were introduced as, some super intelligence that had some sort of collective or group presence to be all knowing and all seeing. I never once thought it was a gender identity thing. Well, I’m also way on the spectrum, so par for the course…

To me, Yay always seemed to have female energy. Maybe Ahn was just picking up on that?

Jeph: thank you from the depths of our hearts for not only creating this amazing world that lifts up what the human experience could be--but also for having the insight to ask us, this well-informed community, what we think of a small but potentially powerful detail about the representation of positive behavior before you make it "permanent".

Considering how often I see commenter on here misgender established characters, Anh doing it as a genuine mistake and easily pivoting once corrected feels pretty realistic, imo.

I would also say keep the misgendering. It shows another subtle assumption - someone at least vaguely masc and socially difficult often uses masc pronouns.

Yep: I'm with the essentially unanimous opinion to keep it. This is the kind of modeling we need

Jeph, Anh went right to "they" in panel 2, switching effortlessly as new info came in. This is an example of good social behavior. And plenty of AI types we've seen have gone by "she" or "he" type pronouns, so definitely not all defaulting to the "they" series. it's probably just as diverse with them all as it is with the humans. I think it's just fine to keep it.

🎵 There's no flounces like Yay flounces Like no flounces I know! Everything they're spouting is revealing Everything their ego will allow When they are around you hit the ceiling "Oh yes, adore us; don't have a cow."

I am an older CIS white male, and while I try to remember not to assume, I still mess up. I definitely appreciate gentle correction, and keep trying to learn. It’s all I can reasonably do, I think.

For pooping, silly.

I don't think we've seen people default to they/them before this, or if we have, it's only been one or two characters and not somebody who's thus far run through life like a wrecking ball like Anh. So, assuming feminine pronouns is most likely the most consistent with the writing. It has the added benefit of serving as a PSA to new readers.

Weird thought here: The other day we had a strip entitled "Pressure Tactics". If Jeph ever does a strip that takes place in an AI controlled carwash would he title it: Pressure Washer? (I'll go quietly, Occifer Raccoon.)

Personally, I think "flounce" needs to be a noun. "They huffed off in a flounce" somehow feels more accurate

Trans-femme non-binary genderqueer "it/its/it's" user here and I like the strip as-is. I tend to get she/her'd a lot, and I prefer a gentle correction like this.

They/she here: big fan. I say keep it.

As a They/Them, someone making the mistake and needing to be corrected once and then not needing to be corrected again is what I like to see in media; if a character always screws it up is when it starts to get insensitive.

I think it feels naturalistic. Maybe it just hasn't ever occurred to her because no one ever talked about it. (Which strikes me as a thing that absolutely would happen in a super wealthy family) Also it's nice to see this kind of casual correction and someone just rolling with it instead of making a scene.

Normalize correction and acceptance of correction

I'm part of an organization that cares about this problem and has guidelines. In short, we're advised to 1) accept correction gently, 2) NOT make a show of apologizing because that just makes things more awkward, and 3) move on and remember the person's pronouns in future. I think this works pretty well.

As a trans reader, I like seeing people mistake pronouns and politely correct themselves. Even in the QC world of androids, we're still all strongly conditioned to view people in a binary gender lens. As you said, it doesn't have to be a big deal - no more than getting a new person's name wrong and correcting yourself.

Cis person here, and I say keep it as is... it completely fits for Anh to make this sort of a mistake, and it's treated well. Mistake was made, corrected, and is not repeated, without any sort of major fanfare.

Keep, several different reasons

keep it, it's good for how real life happens

It's hard to remember Yay's pronouns since they were -literally- a "they" at one point. In a robot-world though it feels like "they" would actually be the default for the vast majority of robots. Since clearly it's not just the human-like robots who are self-aware, but it feels like they'd be the only ones who would associate with a human gender. I mean, would a toaster really pick one of the human genders? So Ahn defaulting to "her" seems weird. Especially since Yay isn't exactly female-presenting, so if you want to play it safe I'd assume you'd always lead with "they", until you learn otherwise.

"Yay flounced out in a minute and a huff." I like how Yay's genderment by Anh is taken care of in one sentence, but Bubbles isn't telling her the truth about the buttfor yet.

As a genderfucked person (seriously I know there's a gender around here somewhere. I'm just not sure what it is), I think it's a great thing to leave in tbh. It gives us a glimpse into the morality and, well, character of Anh's character to be corrected and just roll with it. I mean, she's friends with Tai, so it doesn't really surprise me that she'd at least have some idea of respectful pronoun use, but yeah. In other news, I hope the site is knitting back together well. I was devastated for you when I saw the placeholder page you made! You have a great community here too, so if you need help, please don't be afraid of asking for it.

I'm another cis voice who thinks that the mistake, gentle correction, and then preferred use of the one identified is a great sequence. I learned a long time ago that it is safest to ask when I am not certain. This includes me asking "how do you preferred to be addressed?" And then following their lead of name or title or pronoun or any combination of these.

So in a storytelling podcast called “Midst” they had an extra artwork showing a document of people who were in a religious bad place and they wanted to capture and rehabilitate. In those list of the people and their appearance, they would be listed as “feminine presenting” or “masculine presenting” or “androgynous.” I like that we are seeing how people meeting Yay for the first time would initially see their appearance. To a lot of people, gender is either an visual appearance or a genetic condition and it is much more than those superficial characteristics.

I'm not trans, but I have trans frie- No, seriously, I do! Anyways, I personally think it's a good example, so worth keeping. The whole "Don't apologize, just thank and move on" is an important mind set that I'm sure many struggle on, so normalizing it here helps real life normalize it. But that's just me.

Honestly, I think it’s a nice little beat as is: Bubbles gently corrects Anh, Anh immediately switches to the correct pronoun without comment, excellent. It’s also a nice reminder for your readers that Yay is they/them.

Because I'm neither trans nor non-binary my opinion isn't as valid as somebody who is. So I am not giving it. :) All I can say is this: Where can I hide when Anh finds out what the buttfor REALLY is? Perhaps in Marigold's house, in the panic room? Because Anh won't be happy, Dang it, not at all.

We're in full support of this portrayal as well. Our spouse and both kids use they/them pronouns, being nby, fluid, and trans*. It's super helpful to have this type of conversation normalized.

Speaking as a "Cissy McHetterton" who tries to do right, I'd say this looks like good modeling to me. In other news - How you doing with the closing? I graduated Hampshire in 92 and am slightly alarmed at how deeply the feelings are hitting.

you can have a genderfucky world and people fucking up anyways, this is fine

It is a great example of how both parties can handle this kind of mistake, gentle correcting and immediately accepting the correction. This is how it should be.

I learned a new word "flounces" - Verb (Movement): To move with exaggerated, jerky, or bouncy motions, often to express impatience or anger, such as "flouncing out of the room". The more you know.

Speaking of your website, have you considered using the Wayback machine to recover what you can of the site? I have no idea if that would help, I thought I would mention it

As a trans person, I think Anh misgendering Yay is in-character and believable. Honestly, I think it would make for a more interesting character if she continued to struggle with misgendering Yay. Just because she did the right thing by standing up to her dad, doesn't mean she automatically stops being a narrow-minded asshole.

If you don't know what's a buttfor, then first check out a Henway.

This works well and also tbh Anh prior to now likely spending her time around a lot of normie rich girls maybe wouldn't have had a tonne of exposure to nonbinary robots! Makes sense to me

Cis as heck so my opinion on this subject is probably less relevant than some, but I think showing that accidental misgendering happens, and the right way to react to being gently corrected, is perhaps more valuable than acting like it's possible to always get everyone's pronouns right the first time, even in the funny post-singularity horny robot world.

warnings and condolences really sounds like my kind of night

I am also Trans and definitely say keep it as is.

As the 57th person to comment I also think panel good. Also: how long have robots been around in QC world? Do we know that? Is it long enough to have the kind of mass, generational language change where everyone defaults to they?

As someone who's nonbinary, I feel like either option would be fine to go with. On the one hand, it's nice to imagine a world where everyone defaults to neutral pronouns until told otherwise. On the other, constant misgendering (accidental or otherwise) is something a lot of us deal with, and it's also nice to see someone be corrected and just go with it without making a fuss. And, who knows, seeing the latter happen in a webcomic might help someone not be that person in the future.

I'm enby myself, and I have no problems with the way it's presented here. I think it's a good way to showcase how to deal with that situation, getting gently corrected and moving forward with no issue.

speaking as a they person, I vastly prefer this version, tbh

The payoff to this has to be Anh giving Faye and Bubbles a Buttfor as a gift later on saying "Because the old one keeps on breaking and needing calibration"

As a they/them user who defaults to using they/them for everyone until I learn otherwise, I found the misgendering and reasonable correction fine. You get to set what's cannon for your world, and I know in the one I live in, even in the real life western MA, most people don't default to they/them for strangers. I can see a utility to modeling a reasonable correction and immediate course correct on Ahn's part. I'm also happy to imagine worlds where this doesn't happen. 😊

It's your world, but if it's in the present, there are a whole lot of discriminatory things people say and do despite the fact that they should know better. So I don't think as many folks as one might think would default to omit gender. Also, are there many other AIs who use nonbinary pronouns that we've been introduced to?

honestly, I think it's totally in character for Anh making that mistake.

It’s okay if you don’t do it on purpose. I’m old and forget sometimes with the offspring’s buddies. I always apologize because it matters to them.

I hope your site is back up and healthy soon! As for the misgendering, I think that is good to represent too. Even here in your Patreon, possibly one of the safest spaces there is, sometimes we make mistakes too. And gentle correction is always appreciated.

I'd say keep it. It adds a bit of flavor, and this *is* Anh we're talking about - I doubt she's put as much thought into this as you have.

As a trans person I think modeling good correcting/being corrected behavior is probably more useful for the world than every character having intuitively perfect gender politics.

As for whether the misgendering is appropiate, I would say it's being portrayed well, so I think for you it would just be a choice with regard to practicality and the kind of wordbuilding you want to do.

To be fair, I would have defaulted to the gender they seemed.

I think it's a good character beat. And the majority of the AIs we've met have a gender presentation, so I don't think it's outlandish to start with one or the other.

i definitely think it's worthwhile to show people getting pronouns wrong by accident, being corrected, and immediately pivoting and moving on. normalizing that kind of interaction will hopefully contribute to making it safer to actually correct people

The pronoun thing is a bit tricky, but plenty of AIs choose human standard bodies - they're not all articulated arms or giant spiders or toasters; I think loosely assuming human-equivalent pronouns is reasonable in those cases

Has Bubbles gotten slightly smaller?

I thought “flounce” was a Dollar General name for fabric softener sheets.

I think leave it. It shows a good way of handling it and not being to concerned about needing to be correct on first impressions but still shows that you could be wrong and having someone gently correct you is good

Wait, didn't Yay switch to singular pronouns once they collapsed into a single body? Did I miss something?

as a trans person i say keep it. god knows i have to correct people constantly in the qc discord server