UNCUT - The Q and the Grey (VOY S3E11) | Star Trek Journey 441

I don't in general have a ton to say about this episode. I don't want to say this is the first Q ep to feel like they're jumping the shark, but I do think it's the most evident here. Q started as a cruel trickster god, then evolved into a sort of guide for Picard and humanity(Q Who, Tapestry, AGT), but at some point the Q started getting played for laughs, which I feel is a huge disservice. I did like the philosophical aspects of Death Wish, but I don't feel the implications of a Q civil war are felt anywhere near as much as the writers want us to. At least we got "Bar Rodent", "Chuckles", and "Helm Boy". C+ I'm going to somewhat defend Q here however. I think "rapey" is a little unfair given what we know about the Q(more on that in a sec). Sure, he is being a creep showing up in her quarters(that part is par for the course though), and setting them up for a romantic evening. A lot of that is just arrogance. He assumes "well of course she'll say yes, what woman would turn down a god". So he's trying to pull this James Bond-esque seduction technique and it just doesn't land. However when Janeway turns him down, he resorts to begging the rest of the crew for advice to win her over. Not saying it wasn't highly inappropriate and entitled to just show up and expect Janeway to mate with him. However in True Q, Amanda Rogers abducted Riker to that gazebo fantasy, and when he wasn't playing along, she overrode his free will and MADE him become infatuated with her. Now yes, she did stop a few seconds later, but that is 100x as "rapey" as anything Q did here. Ultimately Q still respected that Janeway had to be the one to choose. As for Suzie Plakson, I'll join the chorus of voices saying "I don't get it". Best guest star in Trek? She's good sure, but hardly worthy of that level of praise. She did nothing noteworthy as Selar, and she was mostly just fine here. She was good in The Emissary and she was great in Reunion. I get loving K'Ehleyr the character. She's a great character, and she complemented Worf a lot. However that's separate from raw acting talent. If she better than James Sloyan? As Dr. Mora, probably. As future Alexander, perhaps. As Jetrel or Jarok, I don't think so. What about David Ogden Stiers, or Marc Alaimo, or hell Colm Meaney back in The Wounded. I could see an argument for Wendy Hughes evoking more emotion with her performance, though that's closer. Regardless of how one feels about Tuvix as a character, Tom Wright turned in a very complex performance. I like Plakson, but there is just WAY too much acting talent in Trek for her to be considered the best. Take away the impact of K'Ehleyr's storyline, and she'd probably evoke no more reaction than any other B tier recurring guest star.

Jesus Christ what’s the big deal about Suzie plakson

What’s with the obsession for Suzie Plakson again ? I don’t get it

Going from DS9 to Voyager can perfectly be summed up as: (Simpsons Dr. Nick Voice): "You've had the best, now try the rest!"

Europe mostly sided with the Confederacy during the US Civil War. They wanted cheap cotton and also to prove that the American experiment was pointless. They traded with the south, giving them heaps of guns and ammo and artillery and even built blockade runner ships to help them slip through the Union's patrols. The British and the USA even came close to going to war when the Union took rebel diplomats off of a British ship. But Lincoln decided going to war with the British while in a Civil War was a really dumb idea and threw apologies at them and freed the diplomats. In the end, a poor harvest in Europe suddenly made US grain and other crops a lot more important than southern cotton. When the Union said they were changing the war's goals to include ending slavery, no European nation would ever truly side with the rebels after that.

"We're not looking for a quick fix." I'm not gonna say she is lying, but.....

I mean she’s such a one note actress I don’t get the glazing

Plakson is no Joel Grey

Mulgrew and delancie were good friends and you can tell how they play off each other

People that don’t like dogs…

Like what is so great about Susie Plaxton? I mean she’s not a bad actress …she’s fine but you guys have put her on a pedestal like she’s perfect lol I agree Voyager cast is also fine they need more development but I think she’s flat in this episode.

I don't know where you guys met Suzie Plakson in person, but this weird hype around her is just as weird as the episode itself. And honestly, I find your current mood towards the show quite dangerous. If you keep telling yourselves something is bad long enough, it's going to become increasingly difficult to get out of that mindset, no matter how good the series gets from here on out. Voyager still has SO many great episodes ahead, along with some really good character development. But if you keep approaching the show with this attitude, it's going to be a pretty unpleasant journey for all of us...

I feel your pain, Josh. One of the reasons I stopped watching this show after season 1 back in the day was the characters were not memorable, fleshed out, or likeable, except for Janeway, Tuvok, and maybe Torres. In fact, I think the Doctor is my favorite character. An AI hologram. That's sad.

I'll add something to Suzie Plakston's resume: great at techno-babble. That being said, aside from her being in this episode, I still like this is all "meh". Rating of B- from me, only elevated from a C by the presence of a former half-Klingon. Would've made it to a full B if the Q's had each had a cigarette after they did the deed.

Yeah. Added thoughts. Every Interview I’ve seen with Robert Beltran he is a phenomenal human being. I just like him as a person. I suspect he could’ve given an amazing performance. I don’t know that they gave him anything. And I do know of some moments he has that are really strong. Under wraps. Passionate. But subdued. That dude can act. I don’t know what the producers/writers did to these actors

I love your characters Discussion in this. Yup. For 30 years. I have been struggling to like the voyage cast.. They’re not bad. They’re fine. I don’t know if it’s the actors. I kind of think it might be. But I suspect it’s more of the writing. I suspect Rick Berman took Jean Roddenberry‘s no conflict to heart. And it’s like they wanted Voyager to be the anti-DS nine. I love Jane way. I adore the doctor. I kinda like Tom parris. And I actually like Belana. Oh my God, the rest of them are so bland. And Tim Russ is the worst Vulcan I have ever seen. He plays him like a robot rather than a passionate person who keeps their passion under wraps. I’m sorry, Tim. I just can’t.

My problem with the show is that i always had a hard time 'connecting' with characters. But there are many many really good episodes to come. :-)

S for 'Bar Rodent' (if you're like me and choose to ignore literally everything else in this episode) List of things Voyager has completely ruined for me: - Q

Weird and silly is good. A little campy but this episode was good television at the time.

Here’s another Rick Berman story for you: Back in February 2019, Rick Berman posted on Twitter that Denise Crosby *gave* him Tasha Yar's combadge after her last day of filming "Skin of Evil," and claimed it sat on his desk for nearly 31 years as a sentimental keepsake. Denise Crosby publicly corrected him, reminding him that her final scene was actually for the episode "Symbiosis" (which was filmed out of order), and that Berman came to the set with a cake, then ripped the com badge off her uniform, and told her, "You won't be needing this anymore” and he kept it all those years!! 😱

I really hope the four stars that went supernova didn’t have any inhabited planets orbiting around them! 💥💥💥💥

oh f*** I was wondering about the nice Chakotey thumbnail and asking myself wtf this episode is about and if I ever saw it and had to wait over 80 minutes to find out. ROLF! well played!

I never want to bias the jury for reactions, but this discussion really hit upon my personal "what's wrong" with Voyager show. The characters are on whole, less compelling that the hooks used in TNG and DS9. The Doctor stands out because it's an interesting premise (is a bit of a Data retread). Would it have killed them to explore an existing Alpha quadrant alien? Give me a main character Bolian!

Josh, I LITERALLY just got through watching the part where you and Alex reflect on how you feel about Voyager’s characters, especially when you bring a guest star like Suzie Plakson on board, and I had to chime in. You have both read my past comments saying that my biggest problem is that there are no compelling characters for me to latch onto. I’ve gotten thumbs down and a little backlash for being the Ken R. of this series! But I feel like you guys now get where I was coming from. Personally, I have nothing against the actors themselves…I’d welcome the opportunity to have a beer with any of them. In fact, I’ve had a few run-ins with Kate Mulgrew and Garrett Wang at conventions and we’ve spoken about their thoughts on the series. It’s the characters and the lack of compelling performances that leave me hollow. And I agree with you…the real litmus test was bringing in someone like Suzie to shine the light on that. Anyway, I didn’t want you and Alex to think I was just being harsh with Voyager, and thank you both for confirming that I’m not the only one who feels the way I do. 🖖

Have you watched Alien/Aliens? If not, you should! If you have, you should know why I thought of it lol

The way I would frame the choice to put Q in the Union uniform is that he says his side is "disrupting the status quo", which is what the Union was doing by dismantling the institution of slavery in the United States. The rebels left the union to preserve slavery. But I think what he says in the rest of the speech contradicts this, so... In general, I don't think the Civil War stuff was thought through very well. Q says to Janeway "your" Civil War, and she says back "our" Civil War, which implies that both Q and Janeway think of her as an American, which is... weird.

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Plaxton as Voyager's recurrent Q character rather than De Lancie is a fun idea for sure

i did like this episode, if only for "Commander Chuckles" "Bar Rodent" and "You! Helmboy!"

Lastly, it's hard for me to talk about Voyager because I want to speak on it as a whole, not just where we are now, so I'll just say that Season 3 is rougher than I remembered.

Also, the discussion where Rick Berman came up made me realize I need to do some homework and really dive into the good and bad of his role in Trek, because my hazy recollection is that it was truly a mixed bag and yet I'll always appreciate, if I'm recalling correctly, that he always tried his best to carry the torch for Gene in a 'what would Gene have wanted' or 'is this consistent with Gene's vision of Star Trek' sort of way, and I think that's low key very, very important. Not in a 'it should always be 100% what Gene would have done' sort of way necessarily, but if nothing else I think that type of thinking should always be sort of the 'elephant in the room' of every Trek writer's room to honor the foundation of all of this and to hopefully not stray too much from it, even when it's being expanded or experimented with.

As to this episode, I liked it more when I was younger, and now.... it's a big shoulder shrug for me. The thing that struck me the most tonight was how much they've dumbed down Q.

I have a hard time with 'just turn your brain off' when it's a Star Trek story. I get it, even this franchise requires some degree of that, but to me part of its uniqueness, at least at its best, is that I don't have to do that. Plus, I've seen so many franchises go into the toilet partially due to that kind of thinking, I just naturally bristle when I hear it now.

There was a Civil War mini-series in the 80's called "The Blue and the Gray".

I'm with you, outside of Russ, Mulgrew, and Picardo the rest of the cast is really dull or annoying. That's a big difference between enjoying mid TNG/TOS/DS9 compared to mid Voyager

The Q are supposed to be beyond gender. Remember when Q said "Jean-Luc I should have appeared to you as a woman..." or words to that effect in Qpid

Funny how time frames affect how we interpret things , isn't it? When people hear a story about an imnipotent God-like being showing up in the 24th Century and wanting to impregnate a human female without her consent, it is considered "rapey". When people hear the same story set two thousand years ago, it is considered a valid basis for a religion.

I was actually hoping you didn't recognize who Suzie is in the credits and had the experience I did of slowing realizing as she spoke that it was the actress who played Keh'lyr. ... Not to nitpick, but since I know you guys want to feel the authentic experience as it premiered, I feel like in the 90s where you wouldn't have had as much access to research and be exposed to her and her name outside the three times her TNG episodes aired on TV, seeing her name in the credits at the start of this episode wouldn't have distracted you as much before she appeared in the episode.

Alex admitted that the puppy was adorable!! Also, if we're talking about continuity, this pup is an Irish Setter wich is the same breed as Janeway's real dog that she left at home with her fiance Mark.

Berman and Braga are really, really disliked by the Star Trek fandom; and watching Voyager and Enterprise is really going to show you why.

Pretty sure this is going to end up comfortably in the top 5 episodes for the season...which is really sad.

Suzie sucks! I think she’s a terrible actor. 🤦🏼‍♂️

lol civil war/colonial era those are like 100 years apart. Thats like equating now with the 1920s

I highly rate this episode personally. The whole continuation of the storyline of allowing a Q to kill themselves I think is fascinating, and the way it's resolved here is great.

This is one of those instances where I wanted to bring this up with Death Wish. I liked that episode but it laid the groundwork for the stupidity we get here. How do humans operate Q weapons? Suzie Plaksen can step on me. FYI, fans often call her character Suzie Q.

Voyager really denigrated the Q. This is just dumb. So they represent the civl war with a literal civl war. And somehow the voyager crew can use their god weapons. dumb dumb dumb

I'm glad you explained that thumbnail of Robert Beltran, as beautiful as his joyous face is there, it did confuse me

Well, the Patreon videos seem to have crashed but I made it as far as you shitting on Rick Berman, which is very justified. Seriously, fuck Rick Berman.

Voyager's problem right now is it's a very plot driven show, the other Treks had worked out by this point that they need to be about character. Also TNG and DS9 were both syndication from day one, whereas being a network show Voyager had tons more studio attention on it, so likely interference too. When every decision has to be signed off by lots of people, in an effort to please everybody you end up pleasing nobody and it's just bland half-arsed stuff. Meanwhile nobody cares about the weird space station show so Ira is left in peace to do his thing.

Pretty much agree with you on this episode. I like it, but the first ten or fifteen minutes are pretty awful. Berman was still around on Voyager, by the way. Michael Piller is gone now, but not Berman.

I could have done with less of Q creeping on Janeway this episode. Has enough of that when he was going after Vosh on DS9 and at least that had Sisko punching him in the face. That aside this is a very silly episode that still has its moments to me.

Love the continuity with Death Wish.

Who the hell is kaylar? Don't you mean Dr. Selar?

I laughed out loud when you said you don’t want to judge these people. 🤣

Voyager sex scoreboard WORST score ever SCOREBOARD Paris 3 Jayneway 3 Torres 3 Chakotay 2 Harry 2 Neelix 1 Kes 1 The Doctor 1 GUESTS Q 1 new Q 1 new DETAILS As the storm in the distance rumbles, Q takes Q by the hand. Leads Q to the bedroom. Q leans in and kisses Q. That leads to Q taking his Q and Q it ever so Q-ly. Q starts the rhythm of his Q lead her Q. As Q continues to Q Q, she feels Q all within her. Faster and faster they Q until finally bringing Q close to a Q. As the tension and passion climbs, Q finally is in the moment and screams I'M Qing!!!!!. If that was what we got good score. We did NOT. We got a finQered.

Q clocked Neelix perfectly, the bar rodent just couldn't accept it.

Not my least favorite Q episode, but it’s near the bottom.

You’ll find your Top 10 for this season in the second half.

As far as I know, Garrett Wang claims that he was told to underact by Rick Berman in order to make the show's aliens seem more realistic. I think it was because they often would have more make-up on, and therefore couldn't be as expressive? I don't think it makes a lot of sense, because the main cast of Voyager doesn't have a lot of alien make-up that hinders them in their acting. Neelix maybe, but he was the most expressive of all of them (I assume nobody told him to underact?). At any rate, make-up never stopped good actors to feel realistic. Best examples are characters like Quark and Dukat, who have lots of make-up on, and both actors are doing an amazing job.

Looks like, from 1992-1995, Suzie Plakson was a regular on a sitcom called Love & War. 67 episodes she appeared in.

In that time Suzie was a recurring guest on Dinosaurs, and a regular for the entire run of the sitcom Love & War.

Rick Berman is definitely not gone from Voyager at this point. Michael Piiler is the one who is just reading scripts and giving notes. The scuttlebutt that’s come out in the years since is that Berman could not control Ira and basically had to let him do whatever he wanted on DS9. (Ira was basically like, “I’m happy to quit if I can’t run the show the way I want to run it.”) But, as a result, Berman took a much firmer hand in Voyager and shot down anything the writers wanted to do that he personally didn’t like.

I heard this a number of times from Garrett Wang and others before Voyager started to film; Rick Berman told everyone that their performances would be tamp down. The real Star was the ship Voyager. He said it really made everyone feel insignificant. This was before Kate Mulgrew was hired.

I do get that the crew characters aren‘t very developed (yet) but „I don‘t care about B‘Elanna!“ kind of hurt.

Q was and is such a fan favorite, we didn't need much justification from anyone for him showing up! Always a treet!

It's just so dumb.

Calling this episode garbage is an insult to the garbage of the world.

I would've liked this episode if Suzie Q showed up in a soldier uniform at the end instead of a dress.

You never have to apologize for telling Rick Berman to fuck off.

Jeez , why do people feel the need to spoil things, why mention anything about future shows!

I do find it interesting how you guys often seem to forget about the Doctor when you're going over the roster of characters. Robert Picardo was always such a standout to me right from the pilot. He nails every scene he's in, IMO.

The title is a play on Blue and Grey -- which were the two colors used in the civil war by the opposing armies of the union and confederacy. It's also the title of a 1982 miniseries on that same subject.

I have no idea what the title means either. Maybe a shades of gray thing? Not the TNG episode! lol. But some moral thing? Or some historical thing. Shrugs. Either way, they are REALLY reaching with these Q titles. As far as the episode goes...eh. It's a Q episode. Not the best but certainly not the worst. Better than that awful DS9 Q episode we saw and I honestly can't think of the title or be bothered to look it up lol. Yes, in terms of these two episodes and Death Wish for that matter, Voyager does Q better than DS9! Still, it's not fantastic. It's above mid. C+