FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek: First Contact

The vibe I got from Lilly and Cochrane, wasn't him taking her credit, at all. I thought it was just that he'd had the big breakthrough idea, and she was the practical engineer who helped make it into a reality. I know starship engineers are portrayed as being both brilliant at scientific research and engineering, but that's not usually the case in the real world.

If Zephram Cochran in this film was a stand-in for Gene Roddenberry, does that imply Lily was a stand-in for Dorothy Fontana?

I know that it was already mentioned that the First Contact music was used during the flag-raising ceremony of Sweden's entry into NATO. But I don't think anyone posted a link, so here it is. Pretty damn cool. For the flag raising ceremony to mark Sweden's entry into NATO, Jerry Goldsmith's theme from "Star Trek: First Contact" was played : r/Treknobabble https://share.google/dqqn8efuAShvfBSKQ

Yeah Picard’s arc is not justified at all and the worst part of the movie. But I’m not gonna change many minds on that one.

Why the First Contact story? If it were a story about shooting phasers at a borg cube it would have been compared negatively as a retread of Best of Both Worlds. (An episode which Normal People were aware of).

Worf isn't usually at tactical on the Defiant so he's not literally aiming and firing the weapons

Girl that screams in the Jeffries tube she was on Voyager 2-22 Innocence.

Ive always loved the addition this movie makes to the lore that Earth has the same first contact story that so many other worlds in and not in the Federation have. The Vulcans were just cruising by doing their surveys, doing their scans, and they notice 'hey you know that prewarp civilisation that just had a massive world war? They just invented warp.' And then they went down and did the first contact thing. Idk why but I just like that Earth had the same first contact and not something different

Sounds like ya both just wanted a hot soapy borg on android film

As for the ergonomcis, Data is programed in 'multiple techniques'. I'm sure at least one or more of them would have worked on the Borg Queen.

Here's to the next half of your Star Trek journey! Well, maybe not quite half way. But it feels half way.

The exterior of the E is the most sexy ship in all of Star Trek, I'll die on that hill. The interior is meh, though.

I've always liked that Geordi's eyes and the Enterprise-E (and Bev's hair) are never referenced. It makes the world feel more real to me, much like how we join the action midway in A New Hope. I much prefer mystery gaps you can fill in with your mind then finding out why and when every little thing happened. That's almost always disappointing.

Very happy to hear the mention of Lower Decks. I wasn't sure of your intentions moving forward, and that's one I'm definitely interested in seeing your eventual reactions to.

Regarding the communications piece, the Borg cut off comms by the time Picard got back to the ship & then Data had to lock out %he computer.

I thought it was funny that the movie mentioned the Defiant and the Bozeman at the same time but Alex & Josh missed the Defiant mention and had a little pop for the Bozeman instead

There was no EMH on the D. It was brand new tech that was integrated into new starships including voyager and the E.

You know who else would never use an EMH? Pulaski!

Out of all the TNG era movies, Maybe even all the ToS movies as well, this one does the best job of being a broadly appealing action blockbuster; which is reflected in its commercial success; but I think Generations and Insurrection do a better job of being 'TNG; but on the big screen with a big budget' which is why I like those movies more. And why I have a soft spot for The Motion Picture.

So a question for TA. Why do you think you like an OP bad guy in the case of the Borg, but not the Dominon?

well originally in the TOS bible they were supposed to be astronauts. There actually are "heads"aka bathrooms in the bridge model, two on the bridge

I'm pretty sure the Riker line about firing phasers is because Worf is a command officer now and no longer a security officer. He was commanding the Defiant, not firing its phasers. He's ribbing Worf about the promotion.

yeah, the EMH wasnt on the D. It's a new feature for the new lines of ships. I can imagine it might be tempting for some medical officers to use one of themif things are crowded and busy, but I also understand why someone like Beverly wouldnt use it.

The Defiant is in it as far as DS9 things. Which, given DS9 is two weeks away from earth, it must have been in the neighborhood. The crew is probably a specialized borg task force crew

Seems like you guys liked it more on a second watch.

Here's my two cents on your idea of giving the Borg Queen more screen time. I'm on the flip side of that argument. I think she was show the perfect amount of time. She's mysterious and vague enough where think giving her more time could potentially make her less interesting. Plus, she technically is in the entire movie because hive mind. She IS all the Borg.

So here's a fun little music video relevant to the topic. nerdcore literary hip hop, this one about Moby Dick. Fun to imagine him referring to Picard. MC Lars- Ahab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al5-bU8DUAg

For the next two Trek films, please don’t forget to watch & react to the deleted scenes. The third TNG movie has seven deleted scenes totaling 13 minutes - and the fourth film has thirteen deleted scenes totaling over 27 minutes of footage🖖

Does anybody know what Stewart's "real name" is?

That First Contact scene at the end with the Vulcan reveal as the score swells. It feels special to me and very Star Trek. Thematically it tied well, with Picard's struggle with letting go and moving forward to a better future. I also think the Earth stuff gives the other characters stuff to do. I'm not sure I'd want just a borg movie... but who knows, maybe that could be better.

Yah. I liked it.

I think thats an unfair observation about Lily. She's just seeing things in contrast to what Picard told her. She's certainly seen plenty of this in war. Its not a judgement on Picard exactly, its contrasting this claim that humanity has evolved with seeing how hes acting. Its not downplaying the threat of the borg. In the ready room, she heard what everyone else had to say and she recognized this, probably because of her experience with seeing it all the time. the fact she doesn't know him is part of the whole point. She's just observing what she sees NOW in contrast to what he told her without this thing, not only of rank and structure, but the idea they all have of Picard as a "great man." Because he is, but she doesn't know that, so shes just telling it like she sees it at the time

I don't think cuitting someone off before they can answer is a trope. When you say its also a real life trope you dont like, you are misusing the word trope. Rather its just a thing people do that you dont like. But given the charcacter's background and the situation she finds herself in, it would be basically unrealistic if she didn't

So I guess they didnt see these comments on the original, but the Sovereign was part of the new fleet of anti-borg ships the defiant was the first release of. If you recall from Best of Both Worlds, it was mentioned that starfleet had new ship concepts but they were months away from even getting started. The Sovereign like the defiant is one of these new lines of ships that are designed primarily as warships. there are no civilians and though it's the flag ship so it has much more functionality, it doesnt have all the bells and whistles of the D. This is a deep cut, but remember, the D was designed during the period the gillworm invasion from "conspiracy" was influencing starfleet decisons, and it makes sense it was a sort of boondoggle idea. Too incredibly long to build, too big, meant to do too much, didnt make sense for it to be a civilian/military ship, nearly everything had to be replaced at some point during the show (central computer, warp core, just to name a few that come to mind) This is actually very realistic and there is a term for this I am forgetting that applies to real military projects. A great relatively recent historical case was the F-35 lighting jet. Itw as supposed to serve the functions of the air force, navy, and army, who all wanted different things. It required intense programming as it ran mostly on autopilot and was about reading the movements of enemy aircraft, hacking their sensors by sending out false information then anitcipating enemy aircrafts hacking moevment. carried only four missiles whih were supposed to be navigated by satteliete while the jet used a laser (auto programmed) to "paint" the target. You had different military contractors work on different parts, so every time there was a change in design specifications , they would have to recode and different teams were coding different things. There were delays in software devlopment, engine problems as it actually didnt fly as well as some earlier jets because the whole idea was this hacking thing so it didn't need to fly well but expereince fighter pilots noted serious performance issues which meant the engine had to be adjusted which again meant you had to adkjust and reprogram the whole thing. There were also structural flaws from "too many cooks" trying to work on sophisticated parts separately. Conceptually it was began in 1995 but the first actual model wasnt released till 2006. Basically to get it actually done they made three separate types for the different needs instead of one that could do all and drastically scaled back the expectations of the finished project despite allies having already payed money for the jet with the initial promises. The cost of the program in total ran to 1.7 to 2 trillion, and each individual plane being sold for 80- to 109 million depending on the unit and features which was way more expensive then waht was planned. This was part of a time period under the Bush 2 when it in hindsight has been considered a time thst there was alot of poltiicking with awarding the huge contract to multiple developers instead of just one due to "military industrial complex" influence, but the whole project was too ambitious and ahead of its time in terms of what it was aiming for. While it's a serviceable modern air fighter, it is not top end and comes nowhere near justifying the costs and overruns. I mention this story because I feel like that was the case with the Galaxy class when the gillworms were in charge. Rememebr they were weakeining starfleet and decommisiong ships at a time when people may have felt like after wiing the Cardasian war (or at least winning and then having two years of negotiating a treay interrupted by clashes) the federation felt overconfident as its alliance with the Klingon empire made it seem too secure, the Cardassians at the time were technologically quite up to Starfleet's levels, and the Romulans had officially been silent although there was still quiet stuff going on. I know this isn't TA's thing, but I actually like to take everything we've been told about the trek universe and use that to reconstruct the history. I'm not making any thing up exactly, I'm just filling in the gaps based on what we know but wasnt specifically spelled out or described. (Obviously this wasnt actually by design but I love how as trek goes on it can add new information that recontextualizes older stuff which is part of how I enjoy the show as putting the later established full universe onto a specific episode makes it feel more interesting. and this is common with trek fans as you know originally they wanted to go light on anyd details that would limit themm but the fans demanded it. Its interesting if you rewatch TOS in production order, the logical way to watch it, how it isnt till later on the first season its actually established there is a federation, as earlier episodes were not clear just what this ship was, and notoriusly in the first episode with the romulans we reference the "earth-romulan war" and "earth listening outposts" along the neutral zone. Anyway,while my thoughts on tge galaxy are my own insights based on what was going on at the time in the universe, it is widely understood in the community the Sovereign is of the same "new line" of ships that are the anti-borg ships and pack sufficiently more punch. Many of these newer ships were seen in the battle scene. So Shelby got the fleet back up but also developed this line and I would think probably organized it so that the federation could mobilize its industrial compacity to produce many more ships in case of a borg invasion rather then having one central shipyards that developed the galaxies over the course of years which is horrible inefficient and why there were only 40 ships availble to intercept the Borg at wolf 395 and why the loss of those ships constituted such a big loss at the time because Starfleet had been weakened for year by the gillworm invasion and this was only a buit over two years later. In fact, oriignally the gillworm invasion was supposed to be connected to the borgh when they were originally conceived as a hive mind of technological insects before budget constraints made them humanoid which is a much stronger choice. But bottom line again, while the Enterprise is the flagship, it hasnt been out of drydock that long and these new ships are much more streamlined and meant to pack a punch. You can see the differnce when, with Picard's help, they destroy the cube, but even before they weren't quite getting manhandled lile they did in BOTB. I suppose if you dont like the ship the good news is there are only two more TNG movies (which isn't a spoiler. And the one after this is bad. Like, notoriusly bad in a "literally killed the movie franchise bad" The last one wasnt bad, but its low attendance was due to how god awful the third one is. So to temper your expectations. While I'm sure there are some people who like it somewhere, the fandom tends to pretty universally agree that movie is hot dog shit, so unfortunately this is the high water mark of the TNG movie franchise. (and I'm pretty sure saying the next movie sucked is ok, there are no plot details there, just saying in my opinion and I think a lot of people's opinion it is god awful, particularly compared to DS9 season six which was going on at the time and from what I believe Voyager fans believe is potentially its strongest season, season 4 (not sure about that one but I do know season 4 is well liked amongst voyager fans.) I understand your point about the aesthetics, but the aesthetics here actually make more plot logic based on what this ship is supposed to be. Voyager was part of that high end line, the super advanced long range expokration ship with its nanites and bio gel packs and industrial replicators. So it makes sense the bridge has more of a Defiant/Voyager feel then a TNG feel. the other "new" ship models shown in this film are the Sabre class, the Steamrunner class, the Akira Class, the Norway class and one or two others I think.

It's ironic that Brent Spiner actually did the stunt where they lower him on the wire (when Data jumps down), but it looks terribly fake and green-screened in the film.

I never liked the way Picard breaks the glass in the conference room. The way he extends his arm is just so awkward and unnatural. I don't know why Frakes shot it that way.

So we have proof that Data and Jenna D'Sora never had sex.

Regarding the "you broke your little ships" line, to me it was an (in-universe) out of pocket like where Lily was more at a loss for what else to say to Picard, where he was seemingly unreachable and unwilling to bend on his position. Stewart does such a good job too, you can see it in his eyes that it's dawning on him that he IS actually in the wrong here, and really going to make the same sort of self-destructive mistakes Captain Ahab did. A great moment of self-reflection in those last few shots

My favorite thought about the Borg being a hive-like entity with a queen is that maybe this means the Borg have a special little dance they do when they find some new things to assimilate.

They were also doing it to set up the later seen with data and the queen about the sensation of touch through organic skin

I live three hours down the road from where First Contact takes place, Brannon Braga's hometown. I hope to be there on that day.

I feel like to better explain why I agrred with Josh that this was good but not quite great. If we consdier this as a sequel to Best of Both Worlds, which as a two parter could be considered a movie in its own right, and a bit longer, by comparison even though this obviously had a higher budget and better effects, I still think that the original BOTB would have been the better movie then the sequel even though the oriignal eas here was actually two episodes of television

I just have a hard time seeing ANY of our future based characters hearing Picard's tirade and saying the exact words: "BULLSHIT!" It's too "less evolved sensibilities for any of them to convincingly say.

Interesting and fun conversation to listen to gents: these podcast style long form discussions really work for me. So I'm pleased to hear that Stage Trek will be returning soon. Looking forward to that one and it gives me an excuse to stick TOS back on as well. Cheers.

I promise you that, sooner or later, you will do EXACTLY what I did -- You'll pause the movie at the moment Worf reaches behind his back as the camera does a closeup of the handle and you'll compare what's on the screen to the prop in your hands. You'll see slight imperfections, little marks & scratches on the finish of the mek'leth Worf is about to use that match up perfectly with the one you are holding. The contours of the back edge of the blade line up exactly with the one sticking out of the Borg drone's neck And you will smile, nod approvingly and mutter to yourself "Fuck, yeah! This is the one"

So uh... the Borg cut off commuication on the Enterprise. But the Earthside crew had their own mission of making sure First Contact happens, so they were putting the mission first before worrying about the ship or getting back to the future. Wait, how clear was it that the Borg attack damaged Cochrane's ship and our crew had to repair and launch it in time for the Vulcans to see? They weren't just putzing around chilling with Cochrane until he launches his ship and convincing him to go through with it.

I can't wait till we get to the 2017 stuff. The Star Trek: Scouts reactions are going to be peak. But in all seriousness, I think you guys will give the 2017+ shows a fair shake, and hopefully enlighten those duped by right-wing click-bait rage-farmers who have vilified Star Trek for pennies from YouTube.

Sorry for the long post: I have to agree with Josh, I would have liked this movie even more if it had been 100% focused on the Borg (and I already love it), not first contact, even though I enjoy most of those ground-based scenes (primarily because of the brilliance of James Crowmell). With the exception of fitting in the end-Vulcan first contact scene, with drunk Cromwell, humorous brilliance incarnate. The Borg scenes are shot so creatively, and infused with malice and horror, which is exactly the vibe the Borg should command. They're a hivemind that swarm in to assimilate your technology, and your soul. Nightmare fuel! As for the Enterprise-E interior, I get it. I love the cozy, warm, bright, colorful almost hipster shaggy carpet (in a good way) bridge of the D. It'll always be home. But Maybe that's why I love the E's interior too? The beauty is in the contrast between them. It's sleek, hyper-efficient, because it's made for a vastly different purpose, for a galaxy that's now in turmoil. I think being reminded of that isn't a positive for you guys, who aren't really into politics and war stories so much. Understandable. Don't remind me of the dreadful horrors, bring me back to the happy positive exploratory family (with some necessary drama). Also, you bring up the Rocinante, great comparison, but you ask who wants to live on it... well, this guy right here! I have to agree regarding the Picard & Lily scene in the holodeck. Even not understanding what the hell is happening, if I was Lily, I would be celebrating this guy exterminating two Hellraiser rejects trying to probe us. In fact, why did you stop shooting, holo in new magazine just to make sure... For all her other scenes, never really thought of her much either way, now either. Shame she sucked (a little) bit of joy out of the scenes she was in, in sort of an opportunity cost of what could have been Diana or Beverly (which I do agree with). But glad it wasn't as much of an impact as the initial reaction made it seem. I find the consummate professionalism of Starfleet officers, no matter how dire the situation they're in, to be charming too. I actually like that Data hasn't had sex since Tasha. It makes their encounter feel even deeper. Great discussion guys. Here's to the next 30 years & more.

How many times did you guys watch the movie? lol It wasn't that Riker chose not to communicate with the Enterprise. It was stated that communications were down.

The movie told us the Borg Queen was on the cube with Picard (Locutus) during Best of Both Worlds. That cube was destroyed. Since this cube also had a Borg Queen, one must assume her consciousness can inhabit "Queen bodies" on many Borg vessels.

I'm honestly surprised they liked this movie. As someone who is more interested in the science than the spectacle, First Contact is my favorite Star trek movie. During the reaction they glossed over a lot of the scientific explanations, but thankfully, this time, they didn't let their indifference about science ruin their enjoyment of the spectacle.

The Borg are indeed like bees or ants. There is a queen in the hive. With bees and ants, if the queen dies, the hive doesn’t necessarily die- they grow a new queen. They need a queen to function and the queen is different from drones and worker bees.

i always wondered if this caused a timeline change, like there original timeline a universe with no borg no enterprise at first contact, then , they go back and go to different future timeline they just didn't noticed difference

So refreshing to hear them use the word "good" again when evaluating Trek! For me, First Contact is a B+ film. A ton to really enjoy, but it definitely has some flaws.

This discussion was much better than the reaction lol. Much more sober, sensible takes across the board. A far more reasonable assessment of the film than the after-watch discussion. Very much enjoyed this!

The human adventure is just beginning. The journey continues...

I don’t want to spoil too much, but Holden gave the final piece of the Borg Queen to Fred Johnson. He just couldn’t quit her.

Geordi’s new eyes are cool, but I did feel like the franchise lost the thread a bit there. We had seven seasons of stories about the VISOR making Geordi unique and special, and now they get rid of it like it was really a handicap all along. I get that it was LeVar Burton’s request, but still. It’s the feeling I got when the Parks and Rec characters spent six seasons loving Pawnee for its weird quirks, and in season 7 it was like they couldn’t get out of Pawnee fast enough.

In 30 years I never clocked the association between Data touching the Pheonix and him gaining sensation with flesh later in the film.

The contact in that woman's eye was in fact, the first contact from the title.

My one problem with the fight scene outside the Enterprise on the dish is the Borg are both part synthetic and part organic (cyborgs). Their organic parts should have died from being in the cold vacuum of space (in fact, I think they even refer to this when they talk about the gas that erodes organic material).

Thinking about how much cool shit you've seen up to this point and how much more cool shit is still coming up just makes me happy to be here today. Cracking a cold one for you guys. Cheers!

They couldn't have done the Picard crashing out scene with Guinan because she'd be right there with him, she'd be agreeing with him because of her Borg hatred. Deanna would never shout back at him. I definitely think they could have written that scene with Beverley, and because of their relationship and history it would have been amazing.

I thought Zephrem and Lily characters were better than you were saying. To me they were essential to the Movie.

I think there are multiple “queens” throughout the collective and they all share the same consciousness. Based on her line, "You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become." when responding to Picard saying she was previously destroyed

I really like the Enterprise E, but it doesn't have a show, so it isn't a favorite.

Alex, great thought about Zephram Cochrane being a stand-in for Gene Roddenberry. I had never thought of that before, but I think you may be on to something there.

I think Lily is meant to be more of the audience's perspective, particularly the non-TNG butts in the seats. I get it. She's fine. I like Alfre Woodard as an actress, but I still wish they had used Crusher or Troi in that scene with Picard.

Do you always talk this much?

No more families on starships probably helped attribute to the decor changing from warm and homey to being more militaristic.

Yes, Patrick Stewart had final approval on the script and he wanted Picard to be the action hero of this film.

My biggest problems with the film are Lily and Zephram Cochrane. Lily is insufferable, and Zephram Cochrane does not feel like the character from the original series. Now, of the two, I still prefer Zephram Cochrane, but I do not feel in ANY way that this guy could have ever created warp drive, especially given the fact they all live in a survivalist shanty town.

There’s a treadmill at the coffee shop? 🤨

Glad you both enjoyed it! :)

Am I first?