UNCUT - Let He Who Is Without Sin... (DS9 S5E7) | Star Trek Journey 435

One could most likely make the argument that people have the tendency to rob a character like "Worf" of his "dark side", and try to make him into a lovable (one dimensional) teddy bear with a sash. But he has always been conservative and a bit of a reactionary. Even other Klingons have noticed that. And people are still pissed that he treats Dax like crap... But Dax has the unpleasant tendency to force other people to "have fun". To quote a famous song from the 1980s: "You shouldn't have to jump for joy!" So, for some weird and twisted reasons, I've never hated the episode as much as the rest of the fandom. It's not great. Yet watching Worf go full fascist rings true to me. Not because that's what he is, but because we all have certain aspects about us, where things rub us the wrong way. Like the idea of a "sanitized pleasure planet". A truly dishonest concept, once you think about it. Pretty vicious. Unless you keep your brain switched off. So... Burn, Risa, Burn!

Rewatching it, I like it better than I first did. I still don't like the bulk of Jadzia-Worf arguing scenes but the ending is sweet. I do like the Riza vacation stuff.

Vanessa Williams, Terry Farrell and Chase Masterson in bathing suit I mean even if the story suck so bad I give it a S

Catching up on my backlog of reactions. Unlike the majority of Patrons, I always enjoyed this episode. It was cool to see Risa again, our main characters got to let their hair down on holiday, and painting the fundamentalists as buffoons is very accurate IRL. Casting Vanessa Williams was the cherry on top… she was crowned Miss America in 1983 but was forced to resign and give the crown back due to Penthouse publishing nude pics without her permission, which she had taken years earlier. She was still considered a “scandalous” figure over a decade later in 1996 and was perfect for this role - and shockingly hilarious that, when we saw Curzon on his deathbed when Dax was being transferred to Jadzia, we learn it was because he got a little too frisky on Risa w/Vanessa Williams’ character.

Every character is written here to their most extreme…except may Dax. Which makes it caricature rather than story. And terry Farrell was always my least facvorite actor in this series. So that didn’t help.

Another Marco Inaros situation here I guess for the antagonist. As you say, he was intentionally hammy and formal because he's putting on a character in-universe so I thought he was good given that context. But no matter. Glad you overall enjoyed this episode that I otherwise never thought much about either way except for the absurd sex appeal in every frame.

"is it in?" Dead. P.S. This is my guilty pleasure DS9 episode. It's oddly really good and really bad all at once. Solid B.

I really like this episode, strong B or B+ for me. I assume most people don't like it because most Star Trek fans aren't traditionalists and hate seeing that. Maybe it's just because I can relate to Worf in my own traditional views and in his taste in strong, less-than-traditional women, but this episode adds great depth to Worf's character and seems like a very real development of a relationship, even if through the lens of "this is a TV show and we need to play it up a bit." It also just has a bunch of goofy and fun moments. I can't wait to see the YouTube comment reactions to you guys liking this episode.

Yeah, I hated this episode when it first aired. Not going to say I love it now but I'll raise it up to a solid B. Watching your patron takes has me thinking about why I hated it at first. First, and I'm not ashamed to say, I love it when the space ships go pew pew. Second, even if Risa doesn't want to punish Worf for his actions I have to assume Starfleet would have something to say and it feels out of character for Worf to be so reckless. Mr. Law and order himself might ruin his companion's vacation but this was a planetary wide act of sabotage. The episode's greatest sin though is taking a character I like, and giving him the depth of sometimes being an asshole. That's hard to watch and only with age and perspective (or was it my marriage?) have I gained an appreciation for that kind of writing.

Sorry guys, I'm behind on my episodes. I definitely would have had a "Meridian"-style defector take for this episode, it's good. And it would have been perfect timing after you trashed Stubbs earlier in the discussion, too. Next time.

I am an S-tier villain. The next major motion picture will be Star Trek Picard: the Mind of Stubbs.

This episode has a soft spot for me, I had seen a few episodes of DS9 before this and never gave it much thought. But they started showing it in the middle of the night and I was in college needing to unwind after studying. This was the first episode I watched coming back to the series. This is one of my favorite seasons, for this and many other reasons. I'm glad you liked it, and put me down in the "It's really good" catagory.

I enjoy False Profits over this any day, no competition whatsoever. False Profits was clever, a fun installment, and made me laugh. This one is simply a waste of time. I got nothing from this one. More than happy to move on to the next episode and never watch this one again.

So while I agree the hate for this one is overblown, it's still not a good ep in my opinion. Maybe C tier, which is what I gave Move Along Home. This episode had character assassination, MAH had "Allamaraine", so they balance out😆. However the reaction was S tier. Even if it's not my favourite ep, I'm glad you both had so much fun. The humor in the reaction("is it in?", "kill him like you killed that kid") was definitely better than in the episode itself. Also, I had fun listening to Josh's epic rant, so thanks for that. Now I will say the scene where Worf opens up about the boy he killed was great. S tier scene. However the essentialists were quite cringe, even if on some level they may have had a point. A lot of the rest is C or D tier. By "having a point", I mean that when they did the whole storming into the resort and knocking over tables, Alex asked if there was no security on the planet, which having to ask that question does kinda prove what they were saying. Also even if you think there's little need for armed guards to be present at every facility on a vacation planet(I'm sure security officers are present on the planet and can respond if called), how do they not AT LEAST have electronic security protecting the weather system? Now I don't think Starfleet specifically is soft. Maybe 15 years before when they had lived through decades of peace and hadn't encountered the borg or dominion, and even the romulans had kind of disappeared while they had a tentative peace with the klingons. They wouldn't have built the Defiant back then. Starfleet has definitely got a wake up call in recent years. Q's lesson in Q Who is basically the same as the essentialists, he's just far more effective at delivering it. One difference is their message is more aimed at federation citizens than starfleet, and sure people in the federation are probably pretty complacent, and would be helpless if the jem'hadar rolled up. Yes it is starfleet's job to protect them. Criticizing that is like criticizing someone for expecting the police to stop criminals. Like, yeah that's what they exist to do. But there's also an argument that if you live 20 minutes away from a police station, you should probably be prepared to deal with a dangerous situation yourself. Of course none of those concerns excuse domestic terrorism. And Fullerton and his gang were a bunch of pussies who would be just as helpless if said invasion happened, making his holier than thou moralizing even more cringe. I have criticisms of both Worf and Dax here. First, whether the Risians press charges or not, Worf would absolutely be done in starfleet and probably spend a few years in that NZ penal colony after this. Starfleet is not going to want officers that sabotage whole planet's weather control systems in their ranks. If someone does that once, they can do it again. It would be bad enough if he just made it rain. That's essentially harmless. But he GAVE an extremist organization the tools to cause potentially devastating earthquakes that could have killed many thousands, and they tried to do just that. So that's a bit hard to believe he just got away with. Was Worf being unreasonable in his expectations of a relationship? Yes and no. It's entirely normal to expect that the person you're in a relationship with is not going to be hanging out with past romantic interests. It's one thing if they work together or maybe have shared custody of a kid and see each other during pickup/dropoff, or something like that. Now maybe Dax was just catching up with Boday, but it's heavily implied she had a past sexual relationship with him, and it clearly bothers Worf, so is catching up worth sabotaging her current relationship? Also not wanting her sharing intimate details of their relationship with Sisko and the others kind of falls into Alex's relationship/friends/family separation. Now Worf is honestly being way too stuck up about small stuff here. If Dax wants to drink icoberry juice or whatever it was, despite being mildly allergic, that's her call. Honestly that scene was played for laughs, with Worf saying he wasn't trying to control her and immediately trying to control what she drinks, but he did relent and say drink whatever she likes. Just in general he was casting a dark cloud on their vacation, figuratively and literally. As for Dax, for someone with 7 lifetimes over 3 centuries, she's pretty immature and lacking in wisdom. She says she'd never do anything to hurt him but already has multiple times. Respect is a 2 way street. The thing that has to be remembered about their relationship is that she was the one who pursued Worf. SHE wanted this relationship, and reiterates that here. If Worf had pursued her and then expected her to change to accommodate him, he'd be just as wrong. If she's the one that wants Worf so badly, isn't the onus on her to know what his boundaries are and either respect them or move on? Worf may come across very controlling, but isn't it just as controlling to say "I wanna be with you, now I demand you abandon your standards and accept me as I am"? They really need to have that talk Worf keeps pushing for, lay out what each expects in a relationship, what each is willing or unwilling to compromise on, and if there are irreconcilable differences, agree it won't work and end it like adults. Frankly they're both toxic as fuck here. If Jadzia wants to keep jumping from one casual relationship to the next, power to her, but Worf does not and will never be down for that. She can either leave that behind to be with him, or move on. Had she lived I think Worf would have had a much better relationship with K'Ehleyr. Sure, like Dax, she wasn't so caught up in klingon tradition that she thought they needed to get married after a one night stand, but she also respected that Worf took relationships as seriously as he did. When she came back with Alexander she wanted him to be in his son's life, she wanted him to be in her life. I don't see her trampling all over Worf's relationship boundaries for the simple reason that I don't think she would want to hurt Worf. All this to say, I see why people criticize this episode, but it's certainly not the "worst DS9 ep". There's still a lot of fun stuff here.

Its definitely in the lower bracket but its a harmless episode

Josh went off pretty hard on AdmiralMurphy for saying "this isn't Star Trek". Which is a bit odd considering that AdmiralMurphy literally never said that. lol

1:05:20 yeah well, not all of us are modern us-american degenerates, and 90's Star trek writers definetly weren't. there are no open relationships. the family structure is alive and well in star trek because it is a utopia.

I've always seen the essentialists as a device to move the plot of making Worf the one clearly in the wrong that is the one having a growth arc through this story. I've actually always enjoyed this one as a low stakes character episode and figured you guys would as well. Also 100% agree with you on the rant Josh

notice how Worf used the exact line of reasoning as neelix did "i trust you, i just don't trust X" yet in this case no one complained about it.

It’s still weird to me how beards came back a few years after 9/11 …beards where just kinda not a thing for most guys

Watching your reaction to this episode has given me hope for when you get to modern Trek that you will give it a fair shake and not jump on the "this is not REAL Trek!!" bandwagon. By the time you get there, there will be 26 seasons of the "NuTrek" era, over multiple shows, multiple intended target audiences, a dozen showrunners, over 80 writers, etc. There is stuff to love, stuff that is facepalm inducing, and everything in-between. I am looking forward to your opinions on it in 2035 or whenever it will be when we finally get there.

Hard disagree on the sentiment that "if the episode is labeled "____" you cant say its not "____", but I get what youre saying regarding this episode. This episode isn't my favorite, worf does weird stuff, villain is meh, but I agree this is still trek. But things like Rings of Power which abandons everything that made LOTR good, or Matrix 4 which abandons everything that made matrix good, or new trek which abandons everything that made trek (including this) good, deserve the label of "not [franchise]". When showrunners abandons the core principles, that label should apply, not when the showrunners honor the principles, but make a bad story the label is misapplied

Just because a TV show has the words "Star Trek" in the title does not make it Star Trek.

I mostly agree with your take on this one. Always liked this as a fun holiday episode with some interesting character stuff. I still don't understand how it is so disliked and that's despite me hearing and seeing lots of people criticize it for over 2 decades. All the issues people seem to have with it seem so minor, petty or needlessly overblown to me. I think it's great that the episode spends so much time just letting our characters hang out on Risa and the essentialist stuff is just sprinkled in to have some conflict and tension and they fit the setting quite well imo. In a DS9-typical fashion, it's a much more grounded approach to having a bit of plot in a holiday adventure compared to a treasure hunt involving time traveling aliens. What I probably disagree with you most on is Leeta. I always thought her bubbly personality is a welcome addition in the episodes she's in. So far, all of them were fun episodes with a lighter tone than is usual for DS9 (Explorers, Facets, Bar Association) and I liked them a lot so that certainly colours my opinion of her somewhat.

The mantle of the angry bearded rant has passed from Alex to Josh, long live the beard!

Some DS9 fans hate the episode because they think Worf was shoehorned into the series to boost ratings. Some Worf fans hate the episode because they think the show is making him less heroic. Most of these people are remembering feelings they had in the 90s because that's the last time they watched it. Having not skipped the episode on rewatches, I think it's fine. Not my favorite but it's good character development for Dax and Worf. And I can never be mad at Star Trek for trying something different.

This is why I watch you guys. I started this episode hating everything about it except for the worf speech. I have a personal connection to it and the episode dropped right around the time I injured someone playing football when I was in 4th grade so seeing a hero of mine struggle with nearly the same trauma meant the world to me... But watching y'all enjoy this episode on a different level made me develop a more full flavored appreciation for it. Thank you.

Smooth shave! Yes. I wondered what was different. You look much better than when I did it a couple of months ago. I had a beard dandruff situation so I shaved properly for the first time in 15 years. I discovered that I no longer had a chin or neck. The beard is back. Dandruff be damned!

Jadzia: "I would never do anything to hurt you!" Jadzia during the episode: Purposefully acting in ways she knows hurts Worf My issue with this episode that I can't get over, is how Worf needs to change (trust) but at no point does Jadzia take any responsibility for her actions, change any of her behavior, or even acknowledge the validity of Worf's preferences. It parades as a couple coming to an understanding when all I see is one side being made to conform to the other. The catharsis of the episode is Jadzia learning why Worf is the way he is, allowing her to 'forgive him' for being the way he is but still requires -him- to change, and her not to. Good narrative finds truth on multiple fronts, and this feels more like inserts affirming their own preferences.

The problem with this episode is the character assassination of Worf and the absurd lack of consequences. This isn't one of those cases of "you broke the rules, but for a good reason, so we'll let it slide", or "you committed a crime, but for understandable reasons under extreme circumstances, so you'll just get a slap on the wrist." No, this is "you committed literal domestic terrorism for the dumbest possible reason, because you were pissed that people were too relaxed while they were on vacation". It's absurd writing for Worf as a character that he would so frivolously betray his basic oath of loyalty to the Federation, and it's absurd writing for the world of Star Trek that his consequences would be anything less than immediate expulsion from Starfleet, if not imprisonment. In Rules of Engagement, Worf got a serious dressing-down from Sisko because of a very understandable accident in the heat of battle, even though he was specifically set up to make that mistake and even though no one actually got hurt. But now the consequence for deliberately sabotaging an entire planet of civilians for no good reason is basically just "gee Worf, lighten up"?

The main reason I don't like this episode is that not only are Worf's actions befitting a middle schooler, but he just *gets away* with it. He essentially conducts industrial sabotage, but the writing half-windedly brushes it under the rug. Jadzia let him off *way* too easily. I want to like Worf, but so many writing decisions with him make it extremely difficult. I *do* very much like the out of pocket lore drop about Worf's traumatic adolescence, but I just wish it was planted in a completely different episode. I legit enjoyed watching you guys be entertained by it~

Sisko lets his officers do a little terrorism, as a treat.

Its nice goofy episode. Its not my favorite but it does have its charm :). I give it pass mainly for the Worf story which gives him another dimension and depth. I'm glad you like this season so far but boys the fun is just starting. For me personally this season is filled with heavy hitter after heavy hitter episode. I won't spoil anything for you but I do wish you could watch episode a day because I'm on the edge of my seat to watch what you thing about them and hopefully enjoy them as much I did. ❤

Is this the first time you guys have gotten a taste of what it's like to have a fan favorite episode rejected by you. BTW, I never loved the episode, but over the years I've come to appreciate the Worf Dax character development.

I was surprised that this episode gets so much hate. I thought it was perfectly fine and not offensive. Solid C or even a B

I don’t think this episode deserves all of the hate that it gets. I really only have two complaints with it, and I can live with both of those. First, is that while I appreciate that at least at times, the episode is trying to show a healthy relationship conversation trying to happen between Jadzia and Worf, along with all of the mess that usually interferes in this, like emotional reactions, insecurities, misunderstandings, and accusations, in the end, the episode only holds Worf accountable for his actions, and not Jadzia. From the very beginning of the episode, Worf made it clear that he wanted to sit in private and have a conversation between the two of them in order to find out what each other’s relationship boundaries were, and whether or not they each could accommodate them. This is a GOOD thing! And Jadzia claims to be willing to go along with this. But the entire time, she keeps putting the conversation off because she doesn’t want to worry about it, and instead, just focuses on having a good vacation. Meanwhile, Worf is in an uncomfortable environment hanging out in Limbo in insecurity land until they’re able to actually have this talk, with all of Worf’s relationship boundaries seemingly being violated before they can even be discussed. This leads to misunderstandings that tap into Worf’s trauma of needing to hold both himself and his relationship to a high disciplinary standard, which makes him overstep Jadzia’s relationship boundaries regarding freedom and control without knowing what they are (because Jadzia is avoiding the conversation and never spelled them out other than getting defensive once they were already crossed) which lead to the events of the episode. We eventually finally DO get this conversation, somewhat, once Worf allows himself to be vulnerable and share with Jadzia WHY he feels that he has to hold himself and his relationship to certain standards all the time. This is great, but again, we see accountability, vulnerability, and growth here only from Worf. We never get a moment of vulnerability from Jadzia, or any sort of apology or acknowledgement that maybe she should have had a conversation with Worf first, like what they had planned to do, before she just kept avoiding the whole conversation entirely, or dismissing Worf by hoping Worf would just loosen up and forget about the whole thing, while she just did her own thing on Risa without any concern at all for what Worf’s feelings, concerns, or relationship boundaries might have been. The episode very much takes Jadzia’s side here and paints Worf as completely in the wrong with Jadzia completely in the right, when things are actually more complicated than that. In a way, Jadzia is actually just as controlling as Worf here by expecting Worf to just let all of his needs and concerns never be adressed while she's free to do whatever she wants without consequence, and Worf is just supposed to accept and and conform to her, just like how Worf expected Jadzia to conform to his own relationship expectations. I get that this is Star Trek though, and not couple’s counseling. And relationship drama sells more than modelling healthy and constructive relationship conversations about emotional needs and boundaries. So ultimately this doesn’t bother me that much. I can’t have everything that I’d like to see. ----- My second issue is the villain evangelicals are WAY 1-dimensional cartoony where no one can ever side with them. I think the episode could have been a lot more interesting if they actually had a point, and weren’t so extreme in their methods. As it stands, my husband is someone who is the poster child for following these people’s cause. 1) He’s extremely right wing. 2) He views anyone who views sex and consequently, a place like Risa as recreational as “filthy degenerates” 3) He also has the same trauma based mentality that you can never let your guard down for an instant, or something terrible might happen. 4) He hates anything that feels inauthentic, and Risa actually being an illusion ties right into that. In fact, at the beginning of the episode, he was like Worf cheering these people on. But even HE can’t get behind them once they start resorting to eco-terrorism because nobody is listening to their baseless trauma message. If this group can’t even convince my husband that they were in the right, they aren’t convincing anybody. And they didn’t even accomplish anything by doing what they did except ruin a bunch of people’s vacations. Their entire argument is dumb. Saying that just because danger exists, means that you are never allowed to have any downtime ever, is actually counter productive to addressing said danger. It’s like saying that you should never turn your car off no matter what just in case you have to make an immediate escape in the middle of the night. Meanwhile, you’re putting countless years of endless wear and tear on that vehicle by never letting it rest, which means that it’s actually MORE likely to fail if you ever really do need it in a crunch. People are the same way. If you want them to be effective soldiers ready to handle a Borg attack, you’re more likely to get that if you also respect their needs and give them some downtime. Not force them to be on alert the whole time like robots. And yeah, likewise, you're going to get a lot more out of a relationship if you respect the needs of the person you are in a relationship with, and don't try to force them to be a certain way, which I guess is what they were really going for trying to use these plots as parallels to each other. ----- So yeah, I have some pet peeves with this one that make me roll my eyes and make the episode drag on, like I'm watching a sitcom where all of the drama in it could have been easily avoided at the beginning, making this episode not one of my favorites. But I’m by no means offended by it or anything, and I definitely wouldn’t consider it the worst of the show. It’s just a fine episode with some good stuff in it that is ultimately held back by the areas I stated above that I felt were either poorly executed or could have been improved.

I knew they would love this one. While I agree some of the Worf/Jadzia character stuff is actually quite good, it's otherwise dragged out in a boring, lethargic, ridiculous episode. I don't loathe this as much as the rest of the patrons because of the good character material, but it's definitely among DS9's lower tier episodes. By no means the worst though! (I probably give that honor to either "Move Along Home" or "Meridian").

Josh: You put the patrons in a bind when you say "I won't read long takes, period," then also say, "explain WHY you like or don't like something!" You do know it takes words and a bit of length to elaborate and fully explain things, right? The patrons are just trying to get read: short and pithy. Can't have it both ways.

The show would have been BETTER if the essentialist guy was more charismatic and persuasive. A different actor, with sharper arguments would have triggered better conflict. Instead, we have a strawman cartoon character villain, that the show is obviously telling you to hate and dismiss, which makes it boring. Make him a veteran of a past war, give him credentials that make him harder to dismiss, something.

Personally I side with the Essentialists. I'm tired of these heathen worlds that don't contribute to brutally fighting the Dominion. Worf gets it at first, but he's then seduced by his girlfriend to relent and become soft.

I cannot agree with you!!! ... on the point that this is not a Dax Episode. ^^

as good as captain's holiday. (i liked captain's holiday)

Dumbest episode so far, and it isnt even amusing. I'm sorry, Worf actually is so cartoonishly pouty he makes it rain at the beach for spite? I didn't turn it off so I guess that's something, but this was beyond dumb. I was pleasantly surprised to see Vanessa Williams and even Monte Markham, but that's it. This is an episode without merit.

Those who hate this episode are Essentialists who don't think we should have fun silly episodes, that it should all be Dominion episodes. Who can hate an episode of Worf getting grumpy and ruining everyone's holiday.

Tom Paris in a tank top>Julian Bashir in a tank top.

Haven't seen anyone mention it yet amidst all the excellent debate, but there's another significant thing about this episode: Nana Visitor had her baby the night before filming began (one reason it's among Sid's least favorite episodes -- they wouldn't let him go home)! So, welcome Django, son of Nana and Sid!

Yeah I couldn’t have been more wrong but I loved the experience of being spectacularly wrong because the reaction was great. This is kind of the opposite of the Jem’Hadar because the ‘oh no the plot’ was so laughably (literally) ridiculous or at least the villains were. To be fair to Ira and even the guest actor I think was to intentionally parody how moralistic, ridiculous, and boring those kinda guys were in the 90s. In retrospect having rewatched this for the first time in full in a long time this isn’t the worst episode of DS9

Alex, your facial hair variability defies the space-time continuum. I swear you have full growth days after stubble sometimes.

I thought this episode was very funny and enjoyable.

I can't wait to see the faces of Josh and Alex when they realise it's a Risa episode after Captain's Holiday, for the record I like this one, from me it's a B.

Knew you would Like This one. It’s just a fun time

Clean shaven Alex should count his blessings....he has a chin....LOL.

Worf has never been written so badly, before or since, in all of Star Trek. It's as if he's a character from a bad 70s sitcom. Maybe he's a changeling: did he eat anything in this episode?!

It's a strange episode. I think I've moved into a similar place as I am on "Sub Rosa," where there's a lot here to enjoy and overall watching it is a good experience but I'm not going to overlook the flaws. In particular, I kind of want Worf to get his ass kicked for what he does here. He can "loosen up" enough to break Dax's ribs during their "making love" but he can't loosen up enough to refrain from doing terrorism on vacation? I feel like that merits a slap in the face at least.

Lol Worf kills one child on the soccer field and all of a sudden.... we're robbed of the "Jadzia Dax" episode... 😪🖖 Fork, Mikel... Oh.... "Too Soon!!?!?" it doesn't happen for 241 years... calm down.

Thanks for the response to the take! I’m glad you guys loved the episode cause its way more fun to watch reactions when you are into it, even when I hate the episode. I could do a whole video on this episode and my thoughts, but as you know can only put so much into a quick take to read. I knew I would have to give some reasons though as I knew you would at least like the episode. Hell, on my first watch I remember liking this episode and being excited for it. It was only upon rewatches I grew to hate it, and knowing it’s a widely disliked episode makes it easier to hate on for sure without people being able to back that up. I think it’s the worst of the show because I want to like it and have fun with it like you were able to have, and I believe the DS9 writers can pull it off. I do think I hate this episode more than I would mainly because of the Worf/Jadzia relationship and the Essentialists. I love me a bad episode when I can have fun with it and fun shit talking it, but this one makes me angry and that seep over into other critiques I had for this episode. First the Essentialists I think are so poorly written that they come across as a joke, but the writers did intend to actually explore their message and take it seriously. When you go into the behind the scenes, shocker the studio meddled in the episode and messed with the vision of the episode. I believe Robert Hewitt Wolfe even tried to pull the plug on this episode at one point because they wanted to really explore the Essentialist argument and push the envelope of what could be done on network tv and the studio just wouldn’t allow it. Even without knowing the writers intended to make the Essentialists message one to consider, the way its written is so laughably bad that it does come across as a joke but there is still a hint that they are trying to still seriously write them which I picked up on and it frustrates me as a viewer. To me, a core principle of Star Trek is exploring other ideas, in a serious and respectful way, so that I may consider those ideas and perhaps think about something in a way I might not have before. I think the Essentialist message while I disagree with it and doubt, I would agree with it because I do think it is laughably absurd, I still think Star Trek is one to tackle that idea and make a case for it, which thus creates a more believable episode and world. If the arguments the Essentialists had were at least somewhat thought out, to me that makes it a more believable world and piece of fiction so that I can be emersed in it. Done poorly, and I’m taken out of the fictional world as the episode struggles with the topic. On top of their group being poorly thought out, it doesn’t help that the villain is one of the weakest in the franchise and least memorable. For the Jadzia/Worf relationship, I think it makes sense in the series to write this into the series. I think the actors have great chemistry, and you can explore a lot of aspects of these two characters that opens the door for a lot of different stories like this one. There are elements here like the scene between Worf and Jadzia where Worf explains the childhood accident that I do kind of like. The piece of information I think is great for Worfs background. The part I hate is that it is revealed in this episode. I wish they could just stick to keeping this a goofy episode, but being like I killed a kid in this freak accident is such a hard pivot. Again, it’s this episode not knowing what it wants to be. The other thing I hate about putting this scene in this episode, is because to me I can’t get pass how much it feels like Worf is using that as an excuse to justify his actions, which again were pretty much domestic terrorism. He joined a group that literally pretended to raid the resort with unloaded real weapons. I like Worf as a character and respect many of his characteristics. I have a hard time believing the TNG Worf would do what he does in this episode outside of the plot requiring it. Worf here seems to revert and get worse on many of the things I think he learned in TNG. Jadzia being like 300 years old, many of the scenes come across as her not having the knowledge of those past hosts here in dealing with this relationship with Worf. Sure I think Worf is a shitty partner in this episode to her with how whiney and serious he takes too many things, and pushing his belief of how one should act onto others, but Jadzia seems clueless as to what genuinely bothers Worf and doesn’t think she should address it. Like I do feel he kind of has a right to be annoyed about her making their relationship information public to people at times. This a a genuine thing couples argue about, and I’d like to think an adult relationship would handle and discuss this better, especially from someone whos lived several lifetimes as other people. Here she just seems like she’s a young college girl in like her first serious relationship. Listening to Terry Ferrell take about this episode last week on the Delta Flyers podcast, she really did not like the writing for the relationship as to the viewer, its early on and there are so many red flags here she felt Dax would’ve ended the relationship in this episode with how things went. She wished we would have seen more positive things between the two before this episode so that you could see why these two could get past many of the red flags Worf does put off with how controlling he can be. I love Dax and Worf. Worf is my favorite TNG character and for a time Dax was my favorite DS9 character, (that’s why I love and support the white board inclusion again as I feel the same way). So because the relationship to me isn’t handled well by writers it makes me loathe this episode even more because I know DS9 builds on things so its frustrating to see so early on this plot they clearly want to do be handled poorly. I have no problem with Star Trek doing fun episodes, especially without the need of lasers and Sci-fi things. The Voyage Home is probably my favorite Star Trek movie even though it is basically just Star Trek comes to “our world.” My take was a little exaggerated cause of my hate for this episode. I think I would like the idea of them going on vacation if it wasn’t for the two issues main issues mentioned. Star Trek will do fun episodes that I will defend just like you guys defended this one here but I can’t talk about them yet. To me because the writing was so poor for main elements I expect Star Trek to get right, to me that’s why this feels like a generic could be in any other show thus making me not care. It didn’t really come across as this is the vacation Star Trek episode, but more so as an episode of some other show in a Star Trek show. Idk if that makes sense, or how to better word the idea at this moment. I guess that’s kinda why I thought of Threshold. I still do not like that episode, but I would not argue its not Star Trek. It’s actually very Star Trek, but its very bad from the script to the concepts it tries to tackle all at once around Warp 10. That makes it an episode I can sit down and rewatch and have fun hating on many of its elements. This Ds9 one though I just don’t have that same feeling for. To end some things, I did love in this episode is some of the world building with stuff like the Bajoran dating ritual. That’s something that can be used in the future of the franchise. And I’m glad Rom is getting some love in this episode even though he is not in it! I don’t even think this is a badly produced episode. They at least tried to make what they had good, and it didn’t land for me, hell it even pissed me off on several things which is why I think its still my least favorite of the show. Its not a boring episode though for me since I was excited to get to your reaction, knowing you would probably love it, and I’m glad there are people out there who do.

I do enjoy this one, is it great no. but it is fun. It is light and a bit silly, but I still like it.

The whole rant about people saying this is not Star Trek is entirely on point. Even before the first episode of each of the newer series came out there were people complaining them about saying they ruined Star Trek. I have always hated that kind of attitude. I rather enjoy the different kinds of not only episodes but different kinds of series. I like the world, the characters and the scifi stories. While I do really enjoy 90's trek and would love to see more of that I also want to see different takes every once in a while.

this episode's just genuinely fun as hell i had no idea people didn't like it 😭 i remembered it mostly as just 'oh yeah the episode dax and julian get naked' hell yeah

First time I've seen this episode. Not one I like but it's not as bad as its reputation makes it out to be. It's certainly not the worst episode of DS9.

Does anyone else find the idea of Worf playing Football funny?

You know... It wasn't as bad as I rmembered!

REMEMBER THAT TIME WORF KILLED THAT KID 😂

Whew…Alex picked the wrong episode to stop being a curmudgeon.

There's a popular Star Trek comedy podcast called Greatest Generation (and sister show Greatest Trek). One of the co-hosts common sayings in reply to "This isn't Star Trek" is that "Star Trek is a place." So I can get behind that part of the rant. I recently watched this episode by accident because it autoplayed after Tribbles and was surprised to discover that it's not terrible. Still mediocre to me, but nowhere near a bottom two episode.

There are people out there who consider this the single worst episode of DS9. They are wrong.

This may not be my favorite episode (I actually like it) but this is my favorite review! The best part of these is that it makes fans give episodes a second chance. It's been 30 years and its so refreshing to have a new take than the baked in consensus.

It’s very weird that Star Trek has been very sympathetic to terrorism until the enemy is the religious Right. I found it offensive as a kid and that’s why I dislike it. It’s not the worst episode or bad in the way “The Passenger” is bad, but the central moral conflict of the show is off-putting. The things you like about it are the reasons I like “Captain’s Holiday”; it’s just a romp.

This episode would have benefitted greatly if Rene got to break out the on-location crane shots again.

Well, they follow-up a landmark episode, one of the best of the series, with one of the worst episodes of the series.

I love when you guys like eps a lot of people don't! And this is a fun episode so nobodies mad lmao.

This is an episode that has some iconic jokes and everytime I rewatch it I like it a little bit more. Very funny with some choices I didn't love. I've always enjoyed Quark in this ep though lmfao.

You do look a lot younger clean shaven Alex.

Regarding the gatekeeping thing I've landed here. If you want to have one of those franchises where the standard really is (to switch franchises) "It's Star Wars because the IP holders call it Star Wars and it has things in it that have been in other Star Wars movies" you can do that. But it also means that the brand guarantees less with time. At this point, the Star Wars label guarantees me spaceships, aliens, robots, and laser guns. Which sounds promising, until you remember that Rebel Moon has all four. I switched franchises from Star Trek because, IMO, Star Wars is a cleaner example of this problem. On the whole, while I haven't seen all of New Trek, even that era generally does a better job of adhering to the thematic elements of Star Trek than a lot of modern expansions of classic franchises partly because there's a strong set of basic ideas that are mostly adhered to even by New Trek and the more recent movies. Tone certainly varies but the franchise can survive that. Whatever I think of this episode, it is an episode of Trek. Your typical beach/vacation episode in another franchise wouldn't bother throwing in a philosophical debate even if it's a ridiculous caricature of one. I will give it this too, it's not often that Trek visits an alleged paradise planet and there turns out to be nothing wrong with it. They aren't trying to suck brain juice out of them or trap them them in a comfy paradise forever. People visit, they have a vacation, and they return to life. Though I am a bit wary that the Risians themselves are being taken advantage of.

I was about to say careful about wanting a Jadzia episode, but you swayed me with your argument it was a Worf episode if anything. There are a few funny bits and character beats, but I find the general episode as cringy. (edit: if you are in the mood for cringe it can work I guess.)

Love your take. I would call this an A+ for fun, comedy, and very good satire of itself and social austerity nonsense. Seeing everyone, even Word, just being a person,not their Starfleet or Barkeep personas. Ok nevermind Quark is the same. Everyone else did great though. RIP Bashir Rizzo (which is negative after this)

Worst episode of DS9?! Hell no, this is miles better than most of season 1. I’d say this is more of a fun silly B episode. I do love how Worf has a heartfelt moment, revealing how he worries about accidentally hurting humans, then 5 minutes later he lifts the Essentialist man by his head and throws him across the room. You just know that guy was in emergency surgery fighting for his life while Dax and Worf were skinny dipping.

What I really respect about good Trek writing is when is can give a fair hearing to viewpoints it disagrees with. Hopefully we'll get some good Trek writing soon. This is probably my least favorite episode of the series. Or at least it's in my bottom five. The Bajoran breakup ritual is ridiculous. It feels like an echo of Gene's whole "it's only weird if you make it weird" approach to sex and dating in Trek I forgot Worf's story about childhood was in this. It's almost the only good thing in this episode. And as for the episode's extremely subtle title, I would remind the writers that Jesus was talking to people who were about to literally stone a woman to death. He also kicked over the money changer tables in the Temple If you're not Christian that's fine. I am just tired of the whole "I can destroy your worldview with a single verse from the Bible you're allegedly thumping" thing. And this episode applies equally well to people who block traffic to protest, people who throw red paint at meat eaters and shriek "murderer!" There are a lot of forms of "I'm going to ruin a bunch of stranger's days because I'm mad about something." People who have decided that today their issue takes precedence over the lives of people just trying to get through their day who are no more complicit than the general public

I think it's a terrible episode because the premise is just stupid. Worf sabotaging weather controls? How is he not kicked out of Starfleet? Still I'm okay with you liking it. I'm not sure why it irritates you so much when the audience disagrees with you. You put a lot of effort into making it seem like everyone else is suffering from mass psychosis; it's just a difference of opinion.

This episode bored me when I was younger. I liked it more this time. Maybe a B for me now. The Josh rant, now that was an S.

I don't know... ... They put that much effort with the Tribble episode to attract new and old Star Trek fans to ds9 and the very next episode is ... this? Yeah, I liked Worf here, the fun parts are good, Bashir and Quark have good scenes, you understand Dax and admire how calm she stays with everything Worf does... but the essential-bushit-guys? They have an interesting idea and message and it also fits quite well to DS9, but this episode wants me to belive that 5 people on a whole f*ing planet are "a movement"? And they happen to be exactly where our officers are? And the weather control has no firewall? Just an uplink was needed? Let them at least blow up something and explain that it will take 3 days to repair or whatever. And after the last episode, you know how they advertised this one? With a hinted topless scene with Leeta... Smells like a studio decision 'sex sells'. The scene is still in the official promo for this episode on startrek(.com) (btw spoilers on that page so don't go there)... (they reshot the scene replacing bathing with a massage for the episode, but still kept the original one for the promo teaser) On first watch I hated it. Now I ... don't. hate. it. Is this a bad episode? Not really, there are worse even in this season. Is this in my top 150 episodes of the show? Don't think so. update: after watching your discussion and the takes: I'm surprised you liked it. And I like beeing surprised :D

Pretty sure they already "explained" why Worf is different than other Klingons. They explained it for seven years on TNG. He was raised by humans on Earth. The end. Having an accident playing soccer didn't stop him from being "aggressive Klingon" any other time during the character's existence. Something the TNG crew always reminded him of when he asked to kill people LOL Also, he went through Starfleet which is a military-style organization that expects composure and control to rise in rank and perform your duties. These little "this one time" explanations are hack writing. It's absurd to think "oh THAT'S why he {insert character trait}". Where is the story that explains why Dax is so "loose"? What specific story-trauma gave her those character traits? LOL! That would be just as dumb.

Oh god no

I love this one! Had no idea people didn't like it.

Terry in a bathing suit. .....wait, what? Story? What are you talking about?

I can’t with this episode - the whole terrorist plot and Worf joining them is one of the worst character moments in Trek. It’s a shame the show can do low stakes character episodes so well and just did in Looking for Par’mach

I generally like this one, and the Worf revelation is heart-breaking. I *do* find it strange that the Risean government/council/whatever didn't prosecute Worf over the device causing the rain but they seem pretty "hakuna matata" on Risa and were probably glad he stopped the Essentialists from destroying everything with earthquakes.

Dax really pisses me the fuck off in this episode, Worf should dump her.

There are some funny moments and Worf's monologue is pretty good, but this episode suffers from 2 major problems. 1 is that it immediately follows Trials and Tribulations, and that episode is so much better both as an episode in general and as a comedy episode, so this looks pretty bad by comparison. The other is that the script is on Jadzia's side while most of the audience is on Worf's side since she does spend the episode going to extremes with no respect for Worf's feelings until he finally snaps and does the straw-man thing with the terrorists to prove he was wrong all along. A script that acknowledged Jadzia's flaws and had her need to adapt just as much as Worf would have gone over a lot better. The lame villain does not help either.

I'm... glad... you enjoyed this one?

Regarding the rant, here's the thing. I LOVE a good low-stakes, nothing much happens Star Trek episode, if it's done well. That's not my problem with the episode. My problems with it all have to do with thinking that the dialogue, characterization, and attempts at humor are done very poorly. Of course it's Star Trek. It's bad Star Trek.

People think this is the worst episode of the whole series??? Are we just gonna say "Move Along Home" never happened? Even ISB and the actors have all expressed their embarrassment about that. This one isn't a go-to, but it at least provides some continuing character development. I have no argument against someone liking it, or disliking it, but "worst of the series" is too strong.

But Star Trek 6 *isn’t* Star Trek. 😛

This episode loses me when Worf is calling Quark "the Ferengi" to his face and not talking to him directly. Like wtf man The backstory they give him does at least explain why he's such a stick in the mud while every Klingon we meet is practically a fratboy, though I find it odd to retroactively add something so extreme to a character that's been written, performed, and directed by other people for the past 10 years. IDK, it's something this episode always makes me think about from like a writer ethics POV. I guess if Ron Moore approved then I'm ok with it.

This is the "Cost of Living" of DS9

So I like this one, but to answer the question, what I've heard is the following 1. The Essentialists are too ridiculous because Risa is a vacation planet, not how federation sitizens are spending their whole lives. Except you have the same sort of people nowadays who do the same thing. 2. The main thing people seem to not like is Worf's charectrization in helping the essentialists do something blatantly illegal. I disagree with this, because Clearly this is NOT the Worf from TNG who felt like he had found his place, this is post-TNG Worf who does not feel like he is part of some legendary crew and trying to find where he fits in and who he is know that "the good times": are over. That's a key to Worf on DS9. On Enterprise, he felt like "they were warriors in the old days and nothing could stand in their way" He loved the Enterprise and it fit perfectly with what he wanted. This worf is introudced as unsure of where he belongs and having to figure out himself and what he wants to do with his life, so there's a big difference. 3. I think some people dont like such a major revelation about Worf's character this "late" in his development. But again see above; we are exploring Worf here in uncertain status, and certainly his relationship with Jadzia brings out very conflicted emotions in him.

I like this and False Profits. lol

So did Worf get a red card or nah for killing the soccer player on the field?? That's worthy of at least a 1 game suspension

While I agree with your "rant" about what is or is not Star Trek, I will be curious to see your reactions when you get to new Trek.

This is a controversial epispode but I liked it. I found the Worf character stuff good. I wasn't bored. Sure it's "lite" for ds9 but I'm fine with that, we don't need very episode to be super heavy. Its funny, i get annoyed with Alex complaining about the plot stuff, but I also enjoy a low stakes character driven episode where we literally get to see our characters on vacation. And boy, Chase Masterson sure is gorges

Star Trek suffers from an interesting phenomenon in which, while the series’ as a whole have been individually reassessed over the years and the fandom has shifted in their opinions of them here and there (I.e. DS9 being not accepted initially and now is being viewed as just ahead of its time as TV has evolved around it), the initial receptions to certain episodes have been sealed in amber and develop a reputation that is very very difficult to break. It happens with episodes considered both bad and good. We’re talking bad or good initial reactions and then 30 years of those reactions entrenching themselves over and over again until the quality becomes a foregone conclusion that apparently justifies itself. That’s one of the reasons I enjoy this channel- for me it’s actually the first time seeing an in depth critical take on Star Trek from a completely fresh perspective with no foreknowledge of individual episode responses from the fandom to color them.

I'm not going to give this episode a rating, but I will say this: the reaction was more enjoyable than the episode. For me, the episode was overall, just okay. This is definitely not the worst episode of Trek, though.

Have you noticed how much Bolians have become the alien-of-choice when they want to include a non-human in the background or as a minor supporting character? Must have been a quick, cheap, and easy make-up to use.

I've never understood the stick some fans have up their asses about this one. No, it's not particularly good, but it's harmless imo and I honestly find Worf's story so absurd as to be genuinely hilarious, but maybe that's just me. I guess I think some fans could stand to have their own little Worf arc and lighten up a bit, not just with this episode but ST in general.

Why does everybody say Worf ist out of character? Worf's WHOLE story on DS9 is his struggle with himself. Is he a "traditional" Klingon, a human with a Klingon face, something in between or someting unique? Being with and against Jadzia is the very expression of this struggle.

You look good, Alex. Clean-shaven suits you.

I watched this in first broadcast... and it made me shelve Star Trek for a while. I recorded it on VHS because I knew I'd get back to it, but this episode sucked harder than any episode before it. I just kept feeling cringe.

I really don't get the hate for this episode. Yeah it's not the Wire but it's a perfectly enjoyable fun episode.

Leelah adds 2 BIG things to the show.... 1. She balances out Kira, showing that Bajorans can be Hott and Chill. 2. She's also often the audience Character that they explain things to... She adds levity and humanity to the show. As for WORF, Guinan called this out in TNG and it shows here... Worf says "Klingons Dont Laugh" and she's like NO, you don't laugh, I know Klingons that laugh their ass off. He isn't a normal Klingon, He is what someone who read about Klingons in books thinks Klingons should ACT. He did'nt grow up Klingon, he Grew up Human reading about Klingons. So allot of the things he says are Klingon Things... are WRONG!!!! DS9 is where he and the audience discovers this because DAX knows Klingons more than him and can call out his FAKE KLINGON BS. He Becomes a real Klingon in DS9. With Khelar, he dated another fake Klingon (Half Human who did'nt grow up Klingon) ... with DAX he is in a way dating a "REAL KLINGON" and finally becoming a real KLINGON. He finally gets to experience what it is to be Klingon.

I had no idea this episode was rated so bad by IMDB! That honestly surprises me! I wouldn't rate it as highly as you guys, but theres nothing here that's boring or bad. I *will* say that Risa seems way too lame/tame, but...90s TV. Meh. If this was made today, I'm sure it would be way more sexualized as it should be. The villian was bad but he was supposed to be, so that doesn't matter. Cartoonishly over-the-top is the vibe they wanted which is obvious. I guess I would give it a B Edit: But let me get this straight, the Universal Translator can translate every word but that stupid Risan word for sex? Jamarahwhatever. You're telling me TV back then wouldn't even let a character say, "are you seeking to get laid?" or "are you seeking to have sex?" Really? Or does the Universal Translator have censorship filters? lmao B-

Sometimes funny is enough. Pepper in some great character moments and a wild piece of back story or two, like Vanessa Williams sexing Curzon to death XD, and we end up with an episode that was better than I remembered.

At its heart, this is the story of a woke, bisexual, gender-fluid and a toxic right-wing chud as they navigate a new relationship. She wants him to be more open and adventurous, he wants her to be a tradwife, and this conflict leads to him being radicalized by an uncharismatic and cringe influencer. Perhaps the most relevant and prescient episode in all of Star Trek. S+

I have barely ever seen this episode over the decades, so rewatching it with you, if I had to guess why it’s so hated? 1 It’s a light episode where most of the humor doesn’t land. I’m not even sure it’s trying to be funny, but it's barely amusing, IMO. 2 Worf and Jadzia’s issues are very shallow and repetitive. Dax wants Worf to loosen up and enjoy life/their relationship. Worf thinks Dax is not taking their relationship seriously enough and is too open to others about it. That’s pretty much it, and I feel like the episode hits those same notes like a dozen times. It culminates in a good scene with the Worf revelation, but not enough to save the episode. 3) There’s nothing else really interesting about the episode. The Essentialist story is a dud. Quark/Bashir/Leeta just feel like they’re filling time. Nothing compelling at all about their presence. They’re basically just extras in the story. I will say, I did appreciate the Sisko/Odo scene at the beginning. I feel like not only has Odo really loosened up as a solid this season, but they’ve given us a lot of Sisko in scenes where he’s not just in command, but actually getting to be lighter, vulnerable, or just having fun.

This might be my favorite reaction of this season so far. Just slightly ahead of the tribble one. Josh, I think you need your own damn soapbox in Las Vegas to stand on and rant, lol!! Ya, it's just an average episode for me. Call it C+ (B-?) with an extra bonus for some laughs. I like it becuase I love the characters that I've come to know so well. I figured you guys would low-key like it, but you liked it even more than I thought. I seriously don't understand the EXTREME HATE for this one. Probably becuase it's in season 5. The worst episode of DS9 is probably S2e9: Second Sight (yes, I had to look it up!). Like, THAT is some boring shit!! A little scene that I really like (I think you guys talked a bit during it), when it starts storming and Quark says "I have seen drier days on Ferenginar and we have 178 different words for rain". Lol! Then he talks about how the moisture affects the food quality and how "there's no word for crisp on Ferenginar". It's almost like you couldn't have those lines unless it was in a STAR TREK EPISODE!! :p Edit: Oh, and it's great to see you guys BOTH come back so smiling and fresh-faced after a week off and ready to tackle a new reaction. I think that really played a nice part in the end result. Even Alex threw out the term "jaded" at the begining, which I've commented before. I encourage the occational week off in order to help reset.

I don’t think it’s the worst. I think Worf’s judgment of Jadzia and making comments on her behavior reflecting on him and all that bothers me on a personal level which has overshadowed the positives that A/J pointed out over time. It was nice to get a fresh take on it.

Ira Steven Behr said: You couldn't even have sexy bathing suits, really. So why the hell were we doing this dumb show about someone who is upset about Risa when Risa seemed so unassuming and so tame. I mean, as we were writing it, Robert Hewitt Wolfe said, 'We should dump it'. I just didn't have the guts to dump it. I wish I had dumped it. It's a totally valid episode, but just not for the time".

Vanessa Williams has had a long career as an actress, but her rise to fame was by being the first African American woman to become Miss America, only to have the title stripped from her when a nude photoshoot of her was published in Penthouse magazine in 1984

It's mind blowing to realize that Doctor McCoy is technically one of the former host lovers that Worf could theoretically be jealous of.

Also, I wish they'd actually go further to justify Leeta being attracted to Rom other than 'he's cute'. It.... mostly just feels like a counter-intuitive attraction for her to have, without really helping me see her POV better than this. I get that Rom has redeeming qualities, but he's also this ugly, oafish doormat most of the time, and he's from a species well-known for being super sexist to women. It just.... could use more foundation than what they gave us. Granted, this is after the union episode, I'll say that much. But there's liking someone as a person and liking them romantically, and the latter just.... really?

"The new essentialist movement-" *THE PLOT!*

Sorry my take should have been better, but it's hard to keep it brief: I don't think this episode, for the most part is meant to be funny. I do find it a bit offensive. I think it's supposed to be a serious episode about Worf and Dax. The few jokes there are don't land and I think Worf's controlling behavior is reprehensible and borderline abusive. Not funny! And no, it's not excused by an accident from his childhood. Classic deflection of asshole behavior that doesn't own up to his actions which tries to manipulate Dax into excusing his bullshit. That's not what the story intended, but that's how it can come off. This is the loathsome shit the E-tier was made for. That said, I get why you like it. It would be 100x enjoyable to watch with a like minded friend riffing on the terrible (goofy)? material. I'm glad you had a good time, because it made me (almost) have a good time... but I think life experience has just made me hate Worf's behavior that much more than previous viewings. What I liked is the discussion helped flesh out why exactly I hate this one so much. Side note: I think Dax has a lot in common with K'ehleyr. She's tall, tough as nails, a has a jokey sarcastic streak. She's his type. Side note to the side note: This is Star Trek. Unfortunately. I had a feeling you wouldn't hate it, but like it? Somewhat surprising.

I guess that begs the question, and to me it's not an easy answer: What makes it Star Trek or not Star Trek? (EDIT: Go see Ryan's comment for better answers than mine) I think it's a complicated thing to answer, but I suspect different fans will give different answers. It's almost easier for me to say what, to me, is not Star Trek, at least in certain ways. Like if the characters were all dropping F bombs and cussing like sailors, I'd say that 'isn't Star Trek' to me, to name just one small example. I think if the characters were overly-emotion, low intelligence people, that wouldn't be Star Trek to me. I think if it handled politics with soap box rant and/or ham-fisted, one-side messaging instead of being intelligent and presenting multiple points of view that leave it to the viewer to make up their own minds, that's not Star Trek. If it doesn't at least try to make sense, then to me it's not Star Trek. I'm probably leaving a lot of things out, but this is off-the-cuff at the end of a long day, so I'll just say 'it's a start'. Oh, and I think this episode is Star Trek, btw, but I think it's pushing it with the Essentialists being so lazy and one-note where they don't really try much to make us see their POV, and Worf is arguably out of character to some degree, but the other characters seemed normal enough to me, and Risa is certainly a Star Trek idea, we get to see a variety of Trek aliens, although there's not a lot to that other than their visual looks in this episode. But the planet having controlled weather is a Trek type of concept IMO. And Worf's backstory fits his character IMO.

To paraphrase Alex, "No Wormholes, no Dominion, no Emissary, this is Star Trek!".

The episode has issues but they are all worth it to learn that Curzon died from too much bangin’.

I for one think it makes Worf more interesting if he’s capable of engaging in some light, harmless eco terrorism over a bit of post-honeymoon jealousy. This episode is a blast

I'm going to wade into the "this isn't Star Trek" argument. For me there are some core concepts that animate this franchise. YMMV, but mine are something like: Are our characters acting like competent adults? Are they trying to think their way out of problems? Do they at least pay lip service to the idea that violence is the last resort? Are they trying to understand other points of view? Even if they're being shitty people right now, is there at least an expectation that they can grow and change and so can humanity? I think anyone who's writing an episode should have a baseline understanding of those things before I feel comfortable calling it Star Trek.

I do think something that separates some fans is whether or not they feel they can let certain things slide. Like, yes, if this was a serious episode, Worf should go to prison, but it's not that kind of episode so it doesn't bother me. I think it's why I'm somewhat forgiving of Lwaxana. In real life she would be insanely insufferable but as a tv character I kind of enjoy her tormenting the other characters because I don't feel like the story is taking her that seriously. Obviously there is a line for this sort of suspension of disbelief but this episode doesnt cross it cause no one really gets hurt and the tone is consistent.

Let's put this comment on the right episode this time - This is my LEAST FAVORITE episode of DS9. The writing is flat and tedious, the humor isn’t funny, and Worf is horribly out of character to the point where I’m actively rooting against him and Jadzia being together by the end of it. Worst of all, it uses my least favorite character development trope: the “this one experience in the character’s childhood neatly explains their whole personality” school of psychology. Erase from canon.

The image of your boot on DS9's neck yelling at it to justify itself feels oddly very in character for the show at the time. 😂

I always liked the Worf backstory scene, but otherwise the rest is just... well, it seems more interesting on paper than it was in execution to me. Fun stuff sprinkled in, but mostly forgettable to me. And while I partially understand Worf doing what he does, I think he goes pretty over the top to actually join those weirdos.

40 year olds have gray/white in their beards

Okay, this was a lot better than I remembered. The villains are terrible and their whole plot is a caricature, but the character moments with our crew are great. Look at Terry Farrell and Michael Dorn with some real lines to chew on! And Engineer Rom becoming a sex symbol, well, insert pipe-laying joke here. I wouldn't say S-tier, but I was thinking D and this is like a B for me.

I think there are way worse episodes in Star Trek, but this coming directly after the Tribbles episode... if any classic Whovians are here... this episode is the Twin Dilemma to the previous The Caves of Androzani story. Not complete trash, but the previous story was high art, and this is pantomime.

Alex is dolphin smooth

Alex looks good clean shaven. Very fresh. I hid my face behind a beard for a long time (context obvious) and seeing my face again for the first time in a decade was a weird one. But its been 14 years since then, so I'm used to it and get weirded out by even stubble now. And the episode is fine. I know some people hate it. I'm mixed.

This is not a good episode but it is not one of the worst, think the reputation is overblown. It's just kind of mostly dumb.

Star Trek contains multitudes. We go from the highest of highs...to this.

It's a functional episode, but not remotely one I enjoyed much.

Ugg. This one…. I mean Jadzia looks good so there is that. I was looking forward to a fun Risa episode instead Worf is moody and judgy. It’s not fun it’s not Risa. Then it rains and the Esentialists are the worst. Only Quark makes me smile. I miss Our Man Bashir that episode knew it was fun. This one is pulling itself from morals, trust, open relationships, breaking up, jealousy or is it fun. It does none of it well. My opinion

Youtube link not working..

Well I guess the federation still has reactionaries. I wonder if they have pictures of Colonel Phillip Green in their living rooms? They must go to a bunch of rallies too

Mr. Worf...its "Eco- T-O-U-R-I-S-M" not TERR@RISM...

I don't get the hate for it, it's entertaining.

Ohhhhh Rom