UNCUT - The Ship (DS9 S5E2) | Star Trek Journey 427

Is anyone else finding Alex impossible to watch? He is really only interested in what he thinks should have happened not what ACTUALLY happens. I am paying monthly to listen to someone continually sulking and trashing really great episodes. Josh understands far more what Star Trek is about . Alex has no interest in any of the central themes of DS9 or any appreciation of 90s T.V. I am not sure why they think people who love Trek would enjoy this constant negativity. I would recommend TA take a LONG break so they come back with a fresh eye.

In the opening scene, O’Brien was talking about “mountains in Ireland” which Muniz said were “gently sloping hills”. The inside joke there was that Colm Meaney had just appeared in a film called “The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain”. It was about a small town that was so proud of the mountain they were situated next to, but then a British cartographer came along and classified it “a hill” because it wasn’t tall enough to be called a mountain. The townspeople (including Meaney) did not take the news philosophically

Man I was hoping you guys would like this more than you did. It's one of my faves, and that was one of my favorite vortas. I think the negotiations were very interesting and high stakes. The entire episode was well conceived. It was a true military and character study on every level. The crew member who died was the only weak point for me.

Easy S Tier. Excellent writing, acting and execution in general. Alex needs to take a break from sci-fi and watch a soap opera or something.

I actually agree with Alex in that I think the death would have worked better if it was Eddington. I don't like how he essentially became a 1-dimensional supervillain at the end of For The Cause. It would have hit harder here since we wouldn't be expecting him to die since he's been on the show for 3 seasons.

One of the best DS9 episodes ever! I honestly don’t know what Alex is watching.

Personally I appreciate the takes that are different to my own, it reframes my own perception even when I don't agree. It does seem daft for them to risk confrontation with the Jem'Hadar over a potential mining opportunity at this point in the show. I don't really mind because the episode is more about the human cost of military success but it's a valid point, Starfleet is taking unnecessary risks in the Gamma Quadrant. It's two seasons since that Bajoran colony was wiped out so it's clearly not safe to be mining there.

When I had watched this the first time and also this time. I believe although not stated in the episode, is that Muniz as he was dying saw the changeling and was saying what he saw, as he pointed to the place where the changeling appears.

This is the difference between amateur and professionale

Variable dopamine reward has been around forever, I try to never go into it in the hopes every episode will be a masterpiece I adore but you have to love the little things like Chief and Worf squabble that is brotherly love. Alex is a lot like the chief, his passion for Star Trek comes out as anger and you know what they say, passion equals love plus anger!

I feel like DS9 is not going to hit for these guys the way you want it. They don't like the main crux of the show whatsoever.

Anybody who disagrees with Picard's decision in "I Borg" has a fairly serious character flaw. Being pro-genocide is... a problem.

I still can't get behind Alex's issue with going to the Gamma Quadrant. Starfleet is about exploration. That's literally what you sign up for when you put on the uniform. Not to mention, not all of the Gamma Quadrant is Dominion Space. In fact, I think there's even a line where they mentioned they are not near the Dominion. Blow up the wormhole? It's not theirs. It also houses the gods of the Bajorans, whose space Deep Space 9 is in. We also established those gods are trans-dimensional beings. Blowing up the wormhole would be genocide. The Defiant is defending the Station. This was mentioned in a previous episode. Why did the Founder die? He died because he was hiding and couldn't maintain his shape, not to mention he was most likely also injured in the crash that killed all the Jem'Hadar. This is an A episode for me.

Alex maybe you need to take a break and chill for a bit you're letting the littlest things or things inherent to star trek get under your skin and destroy your ability to enjoy anything. You gotta let things go more man. Seriously maybe you need a week break it would be better for you, your enjoyment of the show and everyone's enjoyment of the reactions. We love you man, but you seem unhappy or burned out recently.

There is no mystery with the broken bones. They immediately explained that their bones were broken because the inertial dampeners failed and so everyone on board was thrown against the wall at insane speed. The inertial dampeners lessen the effects of inertia so you don't feel the extreme acceleration starships reach. Without the dampeners you would be like a big on the windshield. They didn't say it but I'm guessing the Changeling was injured by the same thing

I know I'm a few days late on this one, but here's my 2 cents. I'm not usually one to jump on the outrage bandwagon. With Past Tense I saw 400 comments and thought it would be the most painful reaction I'd ever watch, and it really wasn't that bad. I maybe thought The Jem'Hadar got some flack it didn't deserve, but it wasn't the end of the world. People are allowed to like and dislike different things. If Muniz story or Sisko's "trust each other" speech doesn't hit, fair enough. I say I liked both more than either of you, but I'm certainly not going to put it on the level of Duet or Lower Decks or Jetrel. That said I honestly got pissed off watching this reaction, because virtually all of Alex's criticisms were completely manufactured. I don't have a problem with someone not liking the episode, but if you have to make up bullshit reasons that are factually untrue of the episode to do so, then the problem isn't the episode, it's the attitude you went in with. To give credit where it's due, you did correct yourself on how far from the wormhole they are. The Gamma Quadrant isn't all dominion space, and they were 7-8x closer to the wormhole than the Dominion border. Why were they mining there? Well presumably if they had a more easily accessible source of cormaline, they would mine it, but they don't. They still need resources. Why wasn't the Defiant there? First it can't be everywhere, so the runabouts are going to be used. Second they established IN THE PREVIOUS EPISODE that the Defiant is now on guard duty around DS9. Between the tensions with the klingons and the fact that not long ago the Defiant came back to find one of the station's arms blown up, can you blame them? And sure you could say it's too risky to send a runabout, but compared to what. If the defiant runs into 6 jem'hadar ships and gets destroyed you're now losing a starship and 50 people. And yeah DS9 is a beast of a station, but the klingons had them on the ropes. Would you put a couple thousand civilians at risk so a few officers are better protected? A runabout is less of a threat and less likely to attract attention, and if the worst happens, you suffer fewer losses. They only called the Defiant when there was a justifiable reason to pull it away from the station. All the "war of the worlds" theories when the reason for the jem'hadar crew being dead and the changelings injuries were explained seconds after they found them. Inertial dampers failed, and they were subjected to likely hundreds of Gs of force. Realistically should have been splattered, but it's 90s trek. Why not blow up the wormhole? Well it's not theirs to blow up. Now if there was a dominion fleet headed their way, might the Bajorans decide destroying the celestial temple is preferably to another 50 year occupation? Maybe, but they're nowhere near making that decision right now. Would the prophets even allow it is another question. Only time we've seen the wormhole destroyed was a simulation. Who knows if it would even work. And if you're going to subscribe to the "run away from your problems" approach, why stop at the wormhole? Why not dismantle starfleet, break up the federation, and just go hide out on Earth and hope nobody bothers us. Because of course people who just mind their own business never have anything bad happen to them, right? I think the Ukrainians might have some opinions on that. The fact is there are always going to be risks in the job we see Trek protagonists doing, but they're worthwhile risks in the grand scheme. No risk, no federation. No risk, no technological development. That approach just leaves a bunch of backward, divided, and weak planets, and then empires like the romulans or klingons or cardassians will swoop in, take over your planet and tell you how to live. Or the borg just assimilate you. Then when it's too late you'll be wishing you took more risks. Turtling doesn't work in the game of civilizations, it just allows the bad guys to divide and conquer. And I don't know where you got the notion that the bombardment was meant to make them run out into it and get killed. I don't know how you'd even arrive at that conclusion but that's an idea that lived only in your head. That was classic suppressive fire, which is meant to do pretty much the exact opposite. Suppressive fire can be used to make enemy soldiers take cover which allows your own troops to advance. It's also a form of psychological warfare. Sure, you could say they knew the Vorta wouldn't destroy the ship, but they were still assuming it was some tech they wanted. For all Sisko and the rest knew, if the bombardment didn't force a surrender after a certain amount of time, they may just decide to destroy the ship rather than let it be captured, especially if they see the Defiant coming to chase them away. It's even possible one of those rounds could end up hitting the ship by accident. Even if you get past that, they're stuck in a dark ship on a hot planet with one of their people bleeding out and constant explosions going off outside. Nobody is sleeping in that, so the thought is going through all their minds that they're trying to keep them awake for going on 3 days straight and when they're ready to collapse from exhaustion then the jem'hadar swoop in and kill them all. The scene where everyone lost their cool was the whole point of that. And yeah, Dax was right. 5 deaths is tragic, but the information they can get from that ship, both from it's computers and from studying the tech is absolutely worth it. The shields on the Odyssey didn't do anything against the jem'hadar. They can beam right through DS9's shields. The Defiant has taken out a few of their ships, but more often than not got wrecked in the process. Romulans and Cardassians fared no better. Until they figure out how dominion tech works, that's going to be every encounter. So yeah, it was worth it. Anyway, I've rambled enough. The point is when practically every criticism of the episode can be addressed by dialogue in this episode, previous episodes, or just by basic common sense, we're getting into the realm of bad faith and very unserious commentary. This one is an A+ for me. If there's one thing that does bug me, it's that they figured out early on that Muniz bleeding wasn't stopping and that it's a side effect of the jem'hadar weapons, but nobody though to phaser a piece of metal red hot and cauterize the wound. It would hurt like hell, but he'd still be alive.

Alex is getting more and more obnoxious lately. i wonder why. is it because everyone said the show starts in Season 5 so he subconcsiously manipulates himself into disliking it? i honestly do not get it. this is a solid episode

So I am a few days late on this and I have not posted any comments since TNG. First I want to make the point that I think many people confuse Runabouts as Shuttle Craft when they are actually very capable ships built to bridge the gap between a Star Ship and a Shuttle. DS9 is very much on the outskirts of Federation space so sending Star Ships out to the Gama Quadrant is not practical and that is why the show started with Runabouts only. Yes they have the Defiant but its main purpose is to defend the station so taking it on a multi-week journey away from the station is also not practical. Then you have to consider that the Federation lost a ton of ships during the battle with the Borg at Wolf 359. Here is what it says online about their intended purpose... "Runabout ships (primarily the Danube-class) in Star Trek were built as multi-purpose, heavy-duty auxiliary craft to bridge the operational gap between a standard shuttlecraft and a full-sized starship. Providing deep-space transport for personnel and diplomatic missions over longer ranges and durations (up to a week or more) than typical small shuttles. My second comment is about the latest trend with TA. For me watching Star Trek with Josh and Alex is an opportunity to rewatch and enjoy the shows vicariously with two guys from a different generation who never saw Star Trek. It never bothered me when they disliked a show I thought was great and often they helped me find ways to enjoy a episode I thought was crap. Lately though it's like trying to put on an episode of your favorite show and your kid brother who hates it is trashing it the whole time your watching and at a point it stops being fun. I would never want TA to start faking how they feel about a show but it seems Alex has lost all critical thinking skills and is just getting pissed for reasons in many cases that just don't make sense. Yes hate the show on the dialog, hate it for its direction, hate it for its execution but to hate the show based on its actual premise? Why even bother watching? He hates the Bajoran stories, He hates, the Emissary Story, He hates the Dominion, He hates the Worm Hole, he hates the longer story arcs. My wife and I watch these shows multiple times a week with TA and never watch any Star Trek without them but even she has noticed something has drastically changed with Alex and its sucking the fun out of watching along with them. I am still it it for the long haul as I have been with them for a long time. I just hope it gets back to how it was before and that is breaking down a show for specific reasons rather than hating on the show for just being what it was intended to be.

its not three weeks away from the wormhole its 3 weeks away from any dominion space there are hundrets of ships going trough the wormhole doing business with nothing happening, thats just not what we see cause its boring xD we see the few times it goes bad doesnt mean it always goes bad xD

there is a reason this episode has a 8/10 rating xD if you hate on it in the start and then are mad the whole episode then ... well you not giving it a chance alex xD they literally spoon fed exposition in this episode to the point i get angry with the show of thinking i am stupid, and then you still managed to miss it all xD

I feel like Alex is getting a lot of undeserved hate here. I never got the impression that he hates the show, as others have said. He just watches it differently than you, and enjoys different things about it. For this episode in particular, i think half of his dislike came from there being things in the episode that he either missed or didn't understand. These are the things that others pointed out like the inertial dampener failure killing the crew of the ship, the whole point of the bombs was never to convince them to come out and fight, and you wouldn't take the defiant on a routine mineral survey on an unimportant planet that's 3 weeks away from the nearest Dominion outpost. Before the ship crashed, this was considered to be a very low risk situation with very high gain from the mineral deposits. But Alex also has legit points that most of us just dismiss. For one thing, the bombing was kind of useless. Yes it rattled the crew a little, but there was never any real tension from the bombs because you knew they'd never blow up the ship. They were never really a threat other than being loud. This was especially the case for me because when I first saw this episode, i figured out that they wanted the changeling pretty early on because that's the one thing they wouldn't risk destroying. This issue is further heightend because in just a few episodes from now, bombs like this are used in a MUCH more effective way that DOES make you feel like things are at stake. This episode fails at that. And yes, they absolutely could have sent a bunch of Jem'Hadar soldiers in with hand to hand combat without hurting the founder. Actually, now that i think of it, they probably avoided that because they didn't want the Starfleet crew using phaser fire that could have accidentally hit the changeling. And yes, we as fans accept that the Gamma Quadrant and the wormhole are important because we buy into this world, and we understand that this is a long game where you don't just bury your head in the sand and hope the enemy never comes after you. But to people who don't just blindly accept that whole philosophy, or think of things in terms of long term strategy, the show doesn't do a good job of spelling out exactly why the wormhole is important, or why they are still exploring there. I can understand it being a meme. It's like all the people who think in Lord of the Rings that you can just fly the eagles to Mordor. Fans know why you can't, but a lot of people are going to think that's a major plothole unless you take a scene or two to address that issue head on. DS9 probably should have done that more in its early seasons. I'm also in the middle in terms of my enjoyment of this episode. As a kid, I didn't understand manipulation, so I couldn't understand why Sisko didn't just blindly trust the Vorta to go in and get the changeling. Problem solved. This made me hate the ending of "no one would have died if we had just trusted each other" even more, because I completely agreed and saw the whole thing as completely avoidable. Now that I'm older though, I can see why things were never that simple. The ending is tragic now, but that line is still a bit on the nose. I also don't care for this Vorta at all. She has no personality, and there is nothing unique about her. She's also not handling this situation well at all, and she's ultimately a very forgettable character. I also don't get emotionally invested in this one. I like everything with Sisko, and everything between Worf and O'Brien, but I never bought into all of the Munez scenes. So the episode kind of feels flat overall. Other than all of that though, I'm in between Josh and Alex. This episode has some great stuff in it, but I feel like the execution could have been a little better. I like it, but don't love it. Probably a high B for me. It's a good episode, but it's ultimately kind of forgettable.

Alex, you are why we can't have nice things...we find the ONLY stable wormhole in the entire galaxy and you want to blow it up.

It’s going to be a rough three seasons if Alex gets upset every time the Federation goes into the gamma quadrant. Sorry for the “spoiler”.

The Idea of the bombing wasn't to get everyone to run out of the ship into death it was to stress them to their breaking point till they surrender.

To stick with known life, and your own civilization. To meekly stay where everyone has been.

Alex opened his mouth and he was immediately wrong. They weren't in Dominion territory. That was "3 weeks away" as per dialog in the episode. After reading some of the other patron comments, I'll skip the rest of the review. Glad Josh said something initially.

Didn’t have this episode causing such a commotion on my bingo card. Most of what I’d say has been said elsewhere so I’ll just say that I think this is a fantastic episode conceptually and in execution. And I think Avery Brooks did an excellent job selling the fact that the lack of trust was the cause of all the carnage. Great performances all around.

Imagine if the Dominion and the Federation signed a treaty where they stay on their side, and the Federation stays on their side. You know, diplomacy. But way back in the season two finale the Dominion delivered an in person ultimatum telling them to stay on their side of the Galaxy, and Dax just yaps back that nothing is going to stop the Federation from doing whatever the hell it likes. It's mind boggling. I really can't fault the Dominion much, the Federation has shown no respect for their sovereignty, undermines their alliances and treaties, and just stole their technology/ship.

I get what Alex is saying, but it's a TV show. One must assume that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of missions through the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant that don't have conflict, but we don't see them because there's no story when there's no conflict. Of course an issue happens in the episode because the story by its nature is an upheaval of normal circumstances. Now, could the show sell that more in some dialogue or some other way? Sure. But is it really all that different if we have O'Brien say something like "55 missions so far and things have run smoothly before now"? I don't think it would move the needle that much.

Jeez - some of these comments are crazy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - especially on a first watch where some things will inevitably be missed when trying to react. Also, no-one is in a great mood all the time so it's natural that sometimes we will be more receptive than others. We all do this but we're not putting ourselves on camera at set times so we can watch when we feel like it. The guys watch when they can so yeah, their mood might change from day to day. Everyone needs to calm down

Let's have Josh reacts , Alex just puts a downer on every episode.

Josh and Alex certainly like to set themselves up for disappointment beforehand

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid." -Q ("Q Who") Why go out in space and explore ANYTHING, according to Alex? It's too dangerous! Let's scrap all the Trek shows because "something could go wrong!"

When the reaction starts with all the reasons why they could hate it, one being Voyager S3 ep3??? And then slagging on Nick Meyer you know your in trouble

I don't know about Alex and Josh's views on alcohol, but I know when I watched DS9 first time I would always sit down with a Whiskey and coke before starting. Smooths off the edges.

This was a fantastic episode , Muniz is there to show off the cost of war on our characters. Every character gets to shine. And Alex is well I just will leave it at that. Yes let’s blow up the wormhole, that doesn’t belong to them , makes sense. War is costly that’s why it’s a thing to be avoided. I’m fine with someone that doesn’t like the series, or an episode if they can back up their feelings with anything other than inane nit pics. Maybe is Sisko fought a clown Alex would be happy. Can we let Alex go watch wrestling vids and get someone that actually wants to be there please

The "bombing" was basically the dominion trying to psychologically rattle them. It is shown to be effective by how they start "infighting" thats all real stuff. I realize these guys aren't students of history of warfare and psychology, but its kinda rough when they are so sure that a action is "dumb" because they don't know about its real world existence.

Took me over 30 years to figure out what inertial dampeners do but I finally got it from watching this episode a few years ago. Basically think of your car going warp 5 then stopping short. The dampeners keep the passengers from flying through the windshield. Them failing is why the Jem’Hadar crew have every bone in their bodies shattered.

Who pissed in Alex's Wheaties today? :-D Great episode.

In other episodes of the show it's mentioned that ships from the Alpha Quadrant go through the Wormhole all the time. Not all of then run into the Dominion. If we're following our main characters into the Wornhole isn't it obvious something is going to go wrong. It's no different than Picard and Janeway investigating some random space stuff.

Not saying this is a classic or anything, but I’m finding Alex’s thought process harder to follow lately. It’s his opinion, so that’s cool. It just feels like switch flipped in his head near the end of last seasons.

"Boob lady"? I had to go back to check, I mean she does have a little bit of cleavage but I think I'd need much more than that to be calling her Boob Lady.

I'm seeing a pattern, Josh likes the more serious Continuing plot episodes, while Alex seems to enjoy the episodic more fun episodes.

Alex said it was worth it in "The Quickening" because they saved a bunch of people. It's posited by Dax at the end that the recovery of this ship has the potential to save tens of thousands if not millions of lives. We'll have to wait and see if this is paid off later *on screen*, but even if not it's likely this intelligence find will result in many lives saved. Another nitpick by Alex blown way out of proportion. Same goes with Alex not having any comprehension of what it means for the Dominion to hold the Founders as "gods," and the lengths they'll go to protect even one Founder. Makes *complete sense* from their perspective. Kudos to Josh for pushing back on Alex on some of his nonsense lately.

Don't worry, Alex - season 5 episode 3 is where the show really starts! 😅

This was okay, but BSG borrowed the idea and did it a hundred times better. I am trying to remember, I think I thought the dying guy's situation was scrubbed clean and bloodless to make it palatable for kids. This was like "It's not bad" but I don't think I would recommend it.

Is this another Alex gets pissed and sulks again episode?

Here is some perspective. Watching from a healthcare professional point of view, 95% of the medical side of things in Star Trek is absurdly wrong. There are so many times that I COULD say this is completely wrong and choose to dislike the episode and be taken out of the enjoyment of it all. However, I understand the storytelling of the episodes. I understand what they are trying to do medically. I understand the ethical point they are trying to make even though it would be inappropriate in a medical setting. The episode was written with a particular story the writers wanted to tell. From there, I would claim that it is how the episode is "executed" that should determine its quality, instead of getting hung up on the minutia of realism. No one should be using Star Trek to learn and critique military tactics, politics, diplomacy, or medical practices. What Star Trek does give us is a vehicle to think about fundamental life lessons.

I understand Alex's annoyances but there are so many and far stupider illogical shit they pull in nuTrek or in some other series like game of thrones that the small points he makes here feel like nothing. Years later when he has a rewatch of this episode, he'll feel different.

A-tier. Really great episode. I loved the cinematography at the beginning, especially the flickering lights and the unusual camera angles. Combined with the dark lighting, it created a really interesting atmosphere. The ending was strong as well. The landing was handled really well, and the whole reveal once the Vorta and the Founder die and everything gets explained was a great payoff. Suddenly, a lot of things make much more sense. And then there's that great final moment with Worf and O'Brien reconciling and standing watch together. A really strong finish. There was a little too much acting from Muniz but not enough to really bother me. Overall, a very, very solid episode and definitely A-tier for me.

Look. I know we had a bit of a disagreement the other day, but don’t let that sour this advice. If possible, take a mental-health day or two (or week). Burnout signs are bubbling to the surface.

I was entertained enough with the episode, so solid B-tier for me.

I do love the camaraderie between the enlisted personnel (Chief and Muñiz). We don't see that too often.

Regarding burying 30 bodies so fast, that was before the runabout was destroyed. Realistically they probably just dragged them outside, took DNA reading, and had the runabout beam them underground.

Totally agree with Josh on the assessment of this episode. Great direction, some great scenes on the ship between our crewmembers, and some great moments of acting, especially from Avery Brooks (who can be disappointing to me in some instances) and in the final scene with Colm Meany and Michael Dorn. And I do agree the delivery of the "trust" line from Avery Brooks was too heavy-handed and more to his over-the-top acting approach. But yes, this is the show: we need to get on board with the Gamma Quadrant/wormhole situation, or we will not like it, period. You have to buy in to the fact for tension and conflict, these types of situations are going to be more of the norm. A+ for me.

So there seems to be a lot of comment here and in the previous episode of people being frustrated with Alex. This is not to dump on Alex but I was thinking a bit more after reading some people's responses to old comments and I think maybe I have a hunch whats going on here. The thing is, I think people were getting frustrated by him starting out in a bad mood and then getting hung up on what many saw as trivial and kind of not really giving the episode a chance. But this has kind of been in line with stuff that I think people have been seeing for a while now. And thinking about it, I have a guess and sort of suggestion. Reposted- My honest guess here is he never liked DS9 because he liked trek for the fact it wasnt serialized which is something he seems to dislike about more modern shows. He was still in for Voyager but now that he feels Voyager had a weak season 3 start, he's worrying that the complaints about Voyager were accurate and he's now going to have two shows he doesn't like and feels frustrated. After all, he's said (or expressed in some way) he doesn't like.... 1. Big Arc plots. 2. The Dominion, which he's been soured on ever since their introduction in "The Jem'hadar" because he wanted the whole episode to just be a camping trip 3. "First contact" episodes which he defines pretty broadly but to him seems to involve any cultural misunderstandings or prime directive stuff 4. Bajoran politics episodes 5. Emissary episodes 6. Mirror universe episodes 7. Ferengi epsidoes 8. Gamma Quadrant Episodes In practice that means not liking DS9 because those categories constitute a signficant percentage of the episodes. I think when TNG was ending he was in a bad mood, and ironically when he shat on the Jem'hadar for reasons I thought were weird nitpitcks where he didn't get things, I feel like he's been soured on DS9. And more for both of them, I don't think they really get what DS9 is fully going for, the way the Emissry plot line and the Bajoran stuff connects with say Past tense and the general themes of the show about imperfect people trying to defend utopian ideals in an imperfect world and what it takes to do that when you aren't already in utopia. A clear contrast to TNG. He's also complained "star trek could be anything" when talking about DS9 which I think speaks to a desire for a show where you go to a planet, deal with its problems, then go off and the next episode is a clean slate. Unlike DS9 where it's much more about using the world built in the previous treks and taking that universe seriously as a place where things happen and have long term consequences that matter. In fact, going deeper, maybe thats the central problem. He loved TNG and DS9 in many ways is sort of the anti-thesis. I feel like for the people who loved Voyager and hated TNG, in many ways its because Voyager tried to be TNG 2.0. So his frustation maybe is with DS9 as a concept, being disappointed that it's not trek as he likes it, and frustarted with that. But not necessarily consciously and maybe sort of insisting thats not the case because there are episodes he does like but he wishes they would scrap what a lot of the show is (as in how he sort of referred to the Dominion as a "failed arc" they should move on from or that he wants to move on from which is not in accordance with how the majority of the fans feel), and often when you have a frustration you can't articulate, or a sort of cognitive contradiction where you feel you have to insist, no, he doesn't not like it, he has his own idea of potential with good characters but hatesor dislikes most of the setup. And that kind of cognitiv dissonance adds to the frustration. It's a bit like having a significant other, where you insist that you love her and want to be with her, but criticize a lot of her personality and what she does (and has an idea, well, I like you, but when you're like this, and could you just be that way all the time and get rid of all the things I find irritating about you) where she feels that you're being nitpicky and too critical and how you'll get in moods where she can "do no right" but insist that's not the case and you really do love her, you're just trying to say she could be better. I mean, no not really, because that would be super toxic as far as a relationship with a person goes, and this is just a relationship to a tv show. BUT, as has been discussed, there is also the aspect of a "parasocial relationship" so maybe some of the disappointment expressed here is bleeding that stuff in. I think what can also get missed, and this part of internet media social dynamics, is often complaints or issues brought up are done so in "snarky way" which leads people to get defensive or perceive hostiltiy (because often hostility is inherent in snark and thatsa kind of internet problem across the board) But the key thing is people who have been here like the channel, and enjoy the content. And a major reason is because TA doesn't just do the glowy "I love everything" kind of reviews/reactions and give their honest opinion, which makes it feel more intersting. Like you know someone actually enjoys something when they're consistently honest. But that's a bit different then writing off major aspects of a show or sort of pre-commiting to being frustrated for what a show is versus what you want it to be. Not in terms of quality, but in terms of premises and core elements. Maybe if Alex kind of acknowledged this (not to us) but just accepted it as far as what was frustra ting him, recognizing the roots of that frustration maybe would help with being less annoyed by what a lot of us see as "the small things" And I think, like I have seen suggested here, that awareness could lead to an interesting interaction- where he sort of admits he's not a fan of what this show generally does but also sees it can have some specifically high caliber episodes- so going in with that mentality, we get a review/reaction from a skeptic and from someone a bit more bought in. When they talk about redoing it as it was, this in a way would reflect the initial fan reactions at the time, because you both had people who loved it and a group who hated how different it was from previous trek. DS9 didnt really get its cult status during its initial run. It was after it had been in syndication for awhile. Anyway, this is jut a suggetion, so Alex could have a better time and the TA audience could feel less frustrated at time and what can feel like the mood Alex starts with will determine how he reacts. I don't think a break would make a huge difference, because I don't think it's the core issue. And it's not like most of this isnt stuff Alex hasn't said. I think that acknowledging he doesn't really care for a lot of the show's choices and coming in with that perspective would not only help in terms of the dynamic of two different views, but his expectations would be lowered so maybe he could be caught by surprise. I think the reality is, without spoiling, the show from here on, which many people feel is the best of it, more and more leans into those elements that Alex doesn't care for, and knowing that and everyone knowing that would lead to a better review show rather then maybe Alex getting annoyed witht the direction it goes as many feel like its hitting all time highs for trek.

I'm pretty sure the aerial bombardment was just meant to be really loud and annoying. They were trying to annoy the crew into surrendering, not lure them out. I think the whole premise of the script was they were trapped in this ship and pushed to their breaking point. I'm guessing in the script itself it implied the bombardment was constant and extremely loud, but then when it came time to film/edit they realized that having it super loud was too annoying for the viewers so they made it less loud which made its purpose less clear.

This episode does have lots of plot holes .... why didn't the Dominion just transport them out. They needed a throw away line about jamming transport out but they can still transport in. Sisqo doesn't ask for medical equipment when negotiating with vorta. What happened to that alien creman's body ? Needed a throw away line about that along with "They took/destroyed medical equipment " off his body. Finally last episode mentioned benzanite having a breathing tube now. That 1 klingon was bragging about killing the benzanite captain by breaking his breathing tube.

They couldnt risk sending more jemhadar, even if they are armed with Melle weapons, the federation with their phasers can accidentally shoot and kill the founder. This is a very important episode, they finally have a Dominian ship to study. Up until now they dominion have kicked their ass every time. Now they can study this ship for weaknesses.

Alex, The defiant never lost its cloak, it was just damaged for that 1 battle in way of the warrior and they couldn't use it for rest of the episode. They can only use it in Gamma Quadrant and they haven't really needed it since way of the warrior. Space is big... Normally doing a quick survey mission in a tiny runabout a very safe distance from Dominion Space isnt an issue. The odds of running into dominion soo far from their Space or even in their space is very low. They were just unlucky that a SHIP with a VIP crashed on the planet they were on. Jemahadar were killed when inertial dampners failed. They say it in the episode that the speed/turbulence of the ship crushed their bones. However, that wouldn't kill a Founder. I've always assumed he was injured from an explosion or radiation. That is why he couldnt just leave , he was too injured. Some say he was found because he had to revert to liquid form. I dont think experienced changelings have to do that. Only odo has to revert, ive never seen any founders claim that they had to revert. Finally, the ship is valuable because they can study it and learn how to fight the dominion. Etc.etc.

The first time I watched I binged in DVD in a month then immediately watched again

I really enjoyed this episode.

Guys, when I commented the last thing I wanted or expected was a "Bash Alex" session. It would be normal for someone to get a bit fed up of a show after so long watching it so regularly. Remember, when we were watching it (if on release) it was every week and then months between series. Even if watching it after release with the repeats we could take breaks. Maybe Alex just doesn't enjoy these shows as much as TOS or TNG and that's nothing to bash him for. I just wondered if a break would help. I did not want it to become bashing Alex!!! Lets just hope some upcoming episodes get his mojo back.....

There's already ships going to the gamma quadrant all the time. The reason the mission became dangerous is because they went toward the crashed ship. Remember, they didn't know what kind of ship it was, so wanted to render assistance.

The reason the bones are broken is explained in the episode. Inertial dampeners failed.

For the people saying "Alex has every right to hate this show". Yeah. Exactly! The issues people have is Alex is being less than honest. Come out and say, "I dont like deep space 9. Fuck I would love that. lol. It would be funny, interesting, contrast, etc". Its not ABOUT that. It's about his individual reasons for ragging on episode are not valid because its excuses and not honest and no one can follow his line of reasoning. He looks and acts angry before something even happens, he doesn't wanna be doing this, and it shows and were picking up on it. I think thats the issue. Hell, I know it is. I don't see evidence of any person having an issue if Alex was a DS9 Hater. How cool of a duel reaction would that be, being that i'm pretty sure Josh loves the show (mostly). It would make for a great reaction and discussion. So no, I don't want Alex to like it. I want him to admit the truth.

Alex: we don’t need constant in-episode reminders of plot points and details. Also Alex: misses details. But we still love him!

This was a solid eight coming in, but the show tried to squeeze out a ten from it that wasn't there and soured the juice.

You guys find the weirdest ways to hate episodes.

DS9 fans are such babies omg “I can’t deal with Alex anymore he doesn’t like what I like” lmao why are you here then? the boys are allowed to like or dislike an episode just the same as we do

So you’re saying vaping is an existential threat?

You don't need to empathize with Muniz the character to appreciate the trauma you must feel when severely injured or facing a terrible illness. You don't need to know his entire backstory to observe how chief's affections towards him versus Worf's ritualistic interpretation bears out a conflict that engulfs the whole crew. With Sisko trying to keep everyone focused. These are people marooned under attack in a high stress situation, they've already suffered losses and are now dealing with a hostile enemy force while one of their own barely hangs on. I think you both lend too much weight towards setup and then gloss over the outstanding moments within the episode(s). The show that tells us to "Bodly Go" and "Seek Out New Life and New Civilization" can't be about nothing happening. Starfleet operates in space, and as Q tells us in TNG: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." The deafening silence when they realize Muniz has perished and how Sisko rallies them back towards their task. The fundamental lesson about how trust (or in this case mistrust) can lead you down the wrong path. Sisko and Chief's coda scenes with Worf joining in as a way to button up the conflict -- these are the great moments of this episode and some of the most powerful of the show.

As the Vorta said, this is the biggest Starfleet Intelligence find in long time. Yes it is.... I'll leave it at that. Freaking A+ ep

There are some bad episode slogs in DS9. If episodes like these aren't doing it for Alex then I don't know how he's going to survive lol.

I agree. Not sure I want to continue watching him shred it. You can tell if he’ll like an episode before it starts if he’s in a bad mood. Seams like he’s looking for negative. I love this episode.

"To BOLDLY go where no one has gone before!" As Q also told Picard, there's treasures out there both wondrous and gross, but it's not for the timid or faint of heart... Humanity as a collective is a race of explorers. It's embedded into our souls. The desire to see what's beyond the horizon. What's at the top of those white peaks. Hell, we navigated through the treacherous Drake passage centuries ago in little wooden ships! We're crazy. Is going through the wormhole risky, absolutely. Is it what Starfleet MUST DO because of the very nature of who they are? Yup. If you cannot accept that basic premise, it does make it hard to buy into some of the initial plots.

Throughout the years I've been along with you both on this journey I've been given new appreciation for episodes I didn't like and new critiques of cherished episode. Only recently has it felt like one or both of you were primed against an episode, not giving it a chance. If this episode was changed by giving the antagonists a different name, different forehead bumps and a vaguely referenced history of conflict with the Federation would your reactions have been the same? I know I can't argue you into enjoying something and it is up to the show itself to be good or not but I do believe the way we approach experiences matters. There is still so much more amazing Star Trek out there for you, I'd hate to see your experience marred by it becoming a slog. Maybe a break is warranted (a short break please, I'd miss you guys). I wonder if compressing decades of content into a few years is impacting your enjoyment of it. Live long and prosper.

Lots of engagement this episode. Yup.

he fact the changeling is so badly hurt is the plot point. You're suggesting totally different episodes. Also the Vorta was hot

its supposed to be forecast and how O'Brien only knows that way to relate to him emotionally, cracking wise, it goes from being a bit goofy to soemthing they're using to keep his spirits up.... Yes, I knew exactly what they were doing as well.. I guess I knew guys like that, who were always busting each others ballas as a way to show friendship, and they're trying to do it to normalize the situation.... I felt there were actually layers of subtely to that in their back and forth and How meaney slightly changed his "bad acting" over time. Chief is the classic blue collar giuy, he doesnt really know what he can do for Munoz so he keeps this up. When you say you guys didn't remember Munoz... When there was a discussion about DS9's great cast of secondary characters, I mentioned (yeah even the really minor ones Like Munoz who is the chief's assistant whose been in a couple.), sure it wasnt something you rememberd but they did try to ast least build him up a littl bit in previous epsides as not just another guy. As far as the Benzite, in the previous epsiodes a Klingon mentioning killong a benzite capitain by "pulling out his breathing tubes" so they have some oher tech thats filtering their air which sounds like its internal.

But you see it as a failed arc and the show runners realy didnt. And the fans dont and didnt

they have deep arcs they have been setting up and investing in, they're not just going to drop the gamma quadrant and dominion plots entirely at this point, that would be such a weird direction.

Yes, the female Vorta was trying a more feminine softer approach. I found her a really interesting character, genuinely "alien" like the Dominion members have been

There isn't supposed to be any mystery. the ship had an engine failure and crashed. The inertial dampeners (whats stops people from falling with the momentum changes of the ship) failed. The ship survived the crash but the jemhadar had their bones pulverized. The founders arent really gods. It survived but was badly hurt. AS far as what the ship was doing, maybe trailing the runabout to see what it was up to as I'm sure The Dominion has the wormhole surveilled. Its not supposed to be mysterious. They literally told you what happened and you can conclude the founder was badly hurt from the same thing.

I loved the performance f the vorta, her subtle shifts and the Munoz thing, it was set up as a kind of male "we can only relate in jokes and its abit corny and overstreteched but if you buy into it really can make the dynamics emotionally charged. Again, when youre invested there's a belief in the situation, the stakes, the struggles of these people. Worf is not the same guy he was on TNG. We know he "felt like a warriori from the old days" guy and loved his job. He's now questioning himself and his beliefs but you also have to keep in mond his idealized sense of klingon culture is like if your read captian america strips in the USSR and that was what you thought america was like and were all in. He clearly has been more emotionally conflicted as he chose this assignment for Sisko's request and because he needs an experienced starfleet tactical officer. Burt he's very much on his own journey of self discovery as he doesn't have thst feeling when he was on the enterprise. And this is an absolutely critical mission that looks like you have almost no chance of surviving and the noise and heat and horror and the extreme difficulty of trying to get a ship they know nothing about running and trying to find something when they dont know what they're looking for is an incredibly taxing situation even for experienced starfleet officers. This isn't the flagship crew. They are NOT the perfect starfleet officers. it's a collection of oddballs and misfits. They are still starleet. Yes, if it was Picard in command it wouldnt have gone down that way. But Sisko is still learning how to be a Captain, he isnt Picard level yet, and I think it makes him interesting as a huge arc here is Sisko's journey through the series where he "comes back to life" and finds himself in an incredibly important assignment. I think the details of depth and the character development that underminds this and realizing how important the stakes are, this would be like the US during WW2 or leading up to their entry, captured a full intact U-Boat. Given the Dominion technology is not understood and more advanced then the federation, this is really huge because up to this point, there's been no real chance starfleet could handle a Dominion invasion or do anything really is the Dominion tried to overpower them. Thats why the station has been so massively upgraded into a top equipped space fortress from where it was in the first two seasons. Sisko doesnt belive her for a minute, hes just sizing up the situation in going out to talk to her and see what he can learn. By the way Alex, what if Sisko were prejudiced against the Vorta? If he thought they were just total weasels who just blow hot air all the time to throw you off.

I’m cutting Alex some slack on this one for a few reasons 1. This has always been a love-it-or-hate-it episode. For some people it really resonates and for others it simply doesn’t click and the nitpicky minutiae gets magnified. If anyone listens to Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill’s podcast going through their first watch of DS9, I believe McNeill called this the WORST episode to date. So YMMV is an understatement with this one specifically. 2. This season is an outlier in that unlike previous seasons that start with slam-bang no-holds-barred streaks of top tier quality right out of the gate and then have some slumps, this season has sort of a slow burn/impulse power start before ending in what almost feels like a different series (again). Seriously, the changes this season are mind-blowing and it’s hard not to want them to be loving this season right out of the gate, but honestly it is just not that great a start to the season relatively, as we’re used to complete shakeups in season openers on this show, and season 5 feels uncharacteristically status quo- at first. As we wish Alex would have a bit more trust in the writers, I will have trust that his mouth will be so agape from this season’s twists and turns he won’t even be able to eat his words!

OK- they cant use energy weapons because they could hurt the founder. They also cant risk for starfleet to use energy weapons. and large scale persence in such cramped ship is seriously risky for people with swords and for the founder tehy are trying to rescue who they figure would hide as part of the ship- so they could shoot it because it could be anything and they cant recgonize it unless it changes and they know its hurt because of the crash. The inertial dampener failure was what caused the crash. We don't know what caused that but even dominion ships can run into space phenomenon or something that mess up their engines. We dont know why they were all the way out here, maybe they were on the tail of the runaboit because they probablu monited the wormhole and wanted to follow sisko at distance. The situation makes perfect sense and was easy to follow, your just so annoyed and complaining you werent paying attention or talking over and you misunderstand the setup and details I thought they were xtremely obvious and again the shelling is to rattle them in the hopes sisko will consider the deal or they slip up or something because theyre running out of time and options, they know the founder is in bad shape. and is in hiding.

This one ranks pretty high on my list. I've always loved the interactions between everyone when things get tense and how Sisko gets everyone back in line. Muniez's struggle and death absolutely work for me. He's no Ensign Sito, but I wouldn't put him far behind. Plus it heavily features Dax as everyone's best friend. She's the emotional bedrock of that team. I may be in the minority, but it's S-Tier for me.

So i really love this and I thought you guys would. Honestly I think (Alex?) went into this one in a cynical mood and never gave it a chance. The thing is, you have to be invested and open to it and its very effective. But I'm bought into these chaarcters, the Dominion, the whole thing and I understand the value of the ship. The Federation can analyze thier technology, weapons, etc. The ships seemed like something most Alpha Quadrant skips can barely tackle in the way they come in attack groups. The Defiant can hold its own at best but the point is in terms of the meaning of that part for the federation, yes, the value of the find to the security of the federation is absolutely worth it. I understand your general argument about the gamma quadrant but I think youre supposed to be questioning this- they literally had a whole simulation to highlight they would do this, so that's something in the background. Generally it was just so clear you were in the mood where you were going to sigh and roll your eyes metaphorically at everything because you're on a negativety trip. When you think about it this episode has everything you want, seeing our characters and their dynamics in a new situation. The firing was to rattle them, not kill them and it was working. The hope was to make the situation bad enough Sisko would consider accepting her terms because at that point the offer of the ship was genuine. Her initial priotiy was to take both but the life of a founder takes precedence over anything. You also didnt seem to get why the founder was hurt. Remembe rthe inertail damopening failure and all the bones being crushed thing? The Founder survived but was badly hurt. We were pointed out to something moving through the walls. At the end it was hiding as a piece of the ship waiting for rescue, and the vorta became more desperate as she was in mpre of rush to get the founder and treat them. Absolutely she's manipulative and evil and Sisko has no time for that vorta charm. But it turned out the last offer was genuine. and trading a founder for the ship is absolutely worth it. So at the end, he afterword, hes more focused on the absurdity of it all and the deaths and whether it was worse it and hes commenting how they both could hjave acheived their objectives had they manage to establish somne kind of trust, but you cant with the Dominion. I feel like this is another case of not understanding what the wepisode is going for. IT supposed to feel claustrophobic wth building tension and atmospheric which is hard to go with if youre cracking jokes about movies and what you focus on which seems to be your own... its like, the show now doesnt start from neutral, its has to wow you after youve already gone in pissed off, and you wont enjoy good episodes like that one because you want.. apparently more procedural mundane super realistic depictions, where a crew doesn't have adventures and just do normal planteray services and repairs equipment and escorts deals and represents the federation in negotiation. Thats never what star trek was, and though TNG could do quiet life in the enterprise episodes, thts not what everybody wants. Its just a shame cause I know how enjoyable this can be if you're invested and grokking it, which you're missing out on because of being overly cynical when you get into certain moods.

I like this episode, but I disagree in that fact that I think it could have been executed a bit better. The pacing is a little bit slow and there's too much jumping between scenes, I swear the Chief has at like 5 separate conversations with Muniz about him not going to die etc. I still think it's an A/B though. Totally agree with Alex though about sending Runabouts into the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation still has tons of space to explore, mine, colonise etc but they choose to send 3 senior officers and 5 crew across the galaxy near to enemy space, just to mine some ore?! Strategically, this makes no sense, even Worf says it's extremely difficult.

It's important to keep in mind that not everything in the Gamma Quadrant is Dominion space. Sisko said they are 3 weeks away from the nearest Dominion outpost, and the Vorta said they are outside of Dominion space. So it's not like they are going deliberately into enemy territory. Saying they should stop exploring space in the Gamma Quadrant is like saying the Enterprise under Kirk or Picard not to explore space because Klingons or Romulans are out there. The criticism that they didn't go there with the Defiant but with a runaboutnis absolutely valid though.

I always loved this episode. The upsidedown ship setting, all interactions between our main characters, the score and direction and the Chief

Starting to wonder if Alex doesn't need a break from Star Trek, it seems he isn't liking any episode at the moment. What show would Deep Space 9 be if they never went through the worm hole. Also as has been pointed out before the Worm Hole is the home of the Bajoran's gods. Starfleet wants Bajor in the Federation, how likely would that be if Sisko and his crew killed their gods??

Look, I'm always open to new POVs and takes on episodes, but if the thought process is going to be "heading into the Gamma quadrant willingly is stupid", then that really is at odds with the entire concept of the show and you're going to be in for a bad time. They even put in a throwaway line that they are "three weeks away from any Dominion outpost" so presumably they think they are safe (not that it should even matter because that's not the point of the episode). Also as a reminder, the crew didn't go into the Gamma Quadrant in the Quickening to "save those people". They were on some random survey elsewhere and picked up a distress signal. So if we're being consistent with the argument, then that episode should be equally as "stupid" and ridiculous as this one.

I feel like it's also worth mentioning that the Vorta chick with the big cans hanging out could probably negotiate me into all sorts of things. I'm aware of my weakness.

I definitely have mixed feelings on this episode. I feel like a good attempt at straining emotions between the crew but there are better episodes that do it. Also a good effort to make a minor character’s death mean a bit more than usual but didn’t quite hit the way it should have (needed to be more established than a couple minor interactions in previous episodes). But overall I think it’s a good tension builder just not the top of the list for episodes that try to depict the characters under pressure

Josh, I really appreciate you standing your ground on this one and offering Alex every single olive branch to chime in a update his reaction. I do NOT want to pick on Alex, but I still need to say some things. I think Alex will like this series more on a second watch. TRUST the writers a little bit more. Small example is "Half a Life" from TNG where he rated it mid on a first watch and was shocked that he didn't give it an S-tier after a rewatch. You miss A LOT the first time on these. We all do!! There's a ton of lines and little explanations that you miss or get wrong the first run and that gives you this list of things you don't like. We're all yelling at the screen saying "They explained that!". What I'm saying is, just try to enjoy the damn ride, man. Other shit: 1) I'm glad you noticed that you got the 3 week/3 days things mixed up. That's what I'm talking about and thank you for mentioning that. 2) Remember the scene in The Expanse where The Ring shows up and that guys speeds into it and gets splatted like a bug on a windshield? THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED to the crew on this ship, but splatting them all into blood jam is too graphic for this show, so they just said (all their bones are broken or whatever). O'brien said they were all dead before the ship crashed. 3) According to Alex, being stuck in a trench or a bunker and having artillery shells or bombs being dropped around you for days on end is the same as being curled up in a comfy bed during a thunder storm. Seriously, man? You need to learn a lot more about this topic, becuase that was just embarrassing. 4) Josh gets it. They're going into the wormhole becuase they're making a TV show. If you didn't want them to encounter danger, they should have saying on Earth and never started a damn Federation of Planets at all. Oh wait, Earth has danger too! Every episode of TOS and TNG they got into some bullshit and encountered all kinds of danger without a wormhole. That's really a bad excuse, man. There's a bunch of other things I could mention. I had a whole list in my head, but some other have mentioned things in the comments and I've had a long day.

This episode's saving grace does remain the double-denouement, but yeah, is a bit of a reach to get there.

My response to Alex's criticism: 1. I think most of the time they go to the Gamma Quadrant, nothing bad happens. We just don't see that because 'nothing happens' doesn't make a good episode. Some dialogue here establishes the Dominion is actually a little ways away from the wormhole, not at it's doorstep. 2. The shoot around the ship because they can't attack the ship. It's pure psychological. The key point is that the vorta/jem'hadar are also stuck. They shoot around the ship because they can't think of a better strategy. Negotiations failed and they're just as unsure of what to do as our main characters. I agree the Moral Of The Story was a bit heavy-handed but didn't detract too much. A-tier for me. Thank you, Josh, for defending the episode. Thank you both for your thoughts.

Huh, I actually do enjoy this one. We get to see the characters under stress and actually showing the negative traits of their personalities. The waste of it all is frustrating and reminds me of the classes we took in law school for mediation - everyone could have gotten what they really wanted except they couldn’t negotiate or communicate properly. Plus new vorta 🤷🏽‍♀️ I dunno, I like it

Y'know when you go up or down an elevator, you feel that push or pull at first as it gets going? That's inertia. The greater that take off speed, the greater the inertia. Now imagine you're in a ship that takes off at even a fraction of lightspeed. You'd get thrown backwards into the wall, shattering every bone in your body and inflicting heaven knows what kinds of other types of physical trauma to your body. That's why they talk about inertial dampeners - why when those dampeners go out in battle our crew bounce around in their chairs like that, and why everyone on that ship was dead. Because they pressed the wrong button on the elevator.

The 100th episode of TNG was “Redemption, Part One”.

Really? Wow... I loved this episode. 1. They weren't 3 weeks away from the wormhole. 2. They explained what killed the Jem Hadar right after they discovered their bodies, and it doesn't take that big of a leap to see how the Founder was injured in the crash and died from its injuries and from holding it's shape for too long without regenerating. 3. They weren't bombing to force them out, they were just rattling them, and it was working. This is all stuff that was spoon fed in the episode, I'm not sure how you could miss it.

The innertial dampeners are the g-force canceling tech in Star Trek. Frankly, some of the writers use them too freely when they need something recognizable to break. Not this time. They save the crew from being thrown around or outright ground to paste by gravity when the ship accelerates, breaks or turns. When the IDs fail, shit gets real quickly. That is what killed the Jem'Hadar and mortally wounded the Founder in that ship.

Also, the Dominion has jurisdiction over the entire Gamma Quadrant the same way Russia has it over Ukraine: they don't. Just because they said they did doesn't make it so. And furthermore, The Federation isn't just gonna let this expansionist empire spread on the other side if the galaxy, growing in power until that empire decides they're gonna attack and the Federation is overwhelmed. The Federation also isn't gonna leave every civilization on the other side of the wormhole to get overrun and subjugated by the Dominion either, not when they have evidence of their genocidal intent. Not going through the wormhole is sticking fingers in ears and hoping the problem goes away. Even if you blast the Wormhole closed, the Dominion will STILL be coming, and countless people will suffer in that time. Now, you and I may not be ones to jump in and get involved in an injustice, but Starfleet IS. It's why they exist.

Shocker. Alex is mad at the plot setup so ignores the episode

Alex, instead of thinking of the bombing as a thunderstorm, think of it as a baby, constantly crying in the background, pissing you off and getting in the way of your focus, hampering your work. THAT was the goal of it, not to get them to run out and leave.

Sisko didn't say that they were three weeks away from the wormhole. They said they were three weeks away from Dominion territory. Hardly in their backyard. (Glad you later caught yourself about them not being that far from the wormhole, though.) And I thought the bombing wasn't to flush them out, but to put pressure on them and wear them down mentally (which it did, they were starting to lose it). I can agree the 'if we'd just trusted each other' scene could have been better, but to me it still somewhat works because they're both demoralized, both tired or exhausted, and they both lost something that mattered to them.

DS9 sex scoreboard SCORES!! sorta The sex score board Jadzia 5 Quark 5 Bashir 4 Sisko 3 Kira 3 Morn 3 Worf 2 Jake 2 Chief 1 Odo 1 Keiko 1 GUEST: Josh and Alex +1 or maybe +2 DETAILS: These crude comments do not come from the scoreboard they are from J & A. J and A both say they had explosions in their mouths so........COUNT IT!!.... Now the possible +2, we think so since they both also said they had white monsters and a graphic explanation of what happens with the white monster......(though Josh has not had one in a while so maybe not a score BUT Alex KNOWS ALL ABOUT the white monster hint hint nod nod........... sorry it has been a long time since any thing happened in either show so we are desperate to say something.

Also what Worf's Klingon ritual of watching over the body was pure bullshit (the Klingon death ritual is established in Heart of Glory) and it's very sweet of him.

Alex's reaction to Sisko explaining to us simpletons the point of the episode was perfect. You two being split on the episode much like the fandom is also perfect. As much as I don't think this episode works, what Sisko does here is no less stupid than Picard not separating the Enterprise to protect civilians (children) before obvious battle situations.

The idea that they should never go into the gamma quadrant because "it's dangerous" seems so at odds with Star Trek as a whole and the real history of humanity.

There's some great stuff coming!! This isn't my favorite episode of season 5, but it does introduce new Dominion tech and shows what it costs Sisko as Captain. Just saying, the wormhole is what put DS9 and Bajor on the map. They're not going to stop exploring. That's Starfleet.

The Jem'Hadar crew died before they ever crashed. The inertial dampers failed and they were crushed by the ship's motion. (O'Brien and Dax said that when they found the bodies.)

Chang was a good villain

to boldly go where we know we're safe lol

One thing I never understood in this episode: Why are the Jem'Hadar hanging from the floor? They wouldn't have been strapped in, and the inertial dampeners failing would have crushed them, not, like, embedded them in the floor, right?

I watch TA for Josh’s analysis of the episodes for obvious reasons. I don’t always agree with his take, but he’s always articulate and has good points to support his opinions on the episodes.

I remember when I was a kid watching Trek, my head canon was that many mundane things happen on many other days off camera, but the episodes we see only are about things that happen that are exciting or significant

It's explained in the episode why the Jem Hadar were crushed, inertial damper failure that crushed them with extreme G-forces when the ship went to warp. Also Munez was the guy in charge and giving O'Brien assignments and ease him back into work when he came back to DS9 from Hard Time.

This is low key my favorite episode!

I know there was some Voyager in between, but I feel like this is the first time you guys have disagreed on two episodes in a row. What's the biggest split been? Darmok?

Their bones were crushed from the G forces from acceleration or deceleration as O’Brien explains. Basically Star Trek ships have “inertia dampeners” that keep the people onboard from being turned to pink slush every time the ship accelerates or decelerates or changes direction. The dampeners on this ship failed so when they went to warp everyone died and the changing was badly injured.

This feels like one I should really like, but I’m just kinda “meh” in it. The two Worf-O’Brien scenes are stand outs but otherwise.. meh.

Sorry Alex, but to critzise that the „aliens in a Tom Crruise movie“ died by themselves and not by humans, is just bonkers. The classic SciFi novel „The War of the Worlds“ by H.G .Wells the movie is based on was published in 1897! Yes, we know you give a shit about history, but history also gives a shit about ignorance.

One negative that irks me a little is Worf. His hostility and anger seemingly came out of nowhere. Okay, so I get why, but I wish they would have built up to it a LITTLE more, maybe? Maybe some closeups of him looking frustrated or grunting the way he tends to do, while shaking his head. I dunno. Minor nit-pick.

I'm sort of between you guys. I liked it...fine. A B- which is def above par, but I didn't LOVE it. But look, here's the thing about 'The Gamma Quadrant is Always Dangerous. I gotta point out, as a TV Show, whereEVER a Starfleet vessel goes on screen in an episode is 9 times out of 10 dangerous in some way. lol. Otherwise there would be no episode. Be it Alpha Quadrant, Beta Quadrant, Gamma Quadrant or Delta Quadrant or in the rare instances we go to another galaxy. On ANY Trek show. It's rare that our crew visits anywhere where...nothing dangerous happens either large scale or small scale.

Man, this is a weird one. It has the vibe of a low-budget bottle show, and yet a bunch of budget must have gone into it. It doesn't seem like anything really happens, and yet it makes me feel a bunch of things. I once heard Star Trek described as "gloriously boring." This is kind of that, maybe? I think this one gains immensely by taking the time at the end to ponder what just happened. I don't care about Muñez, but I care about Sisko, and watching him struggle with his crew members' deaths cements him as a person I like. In some mundane ways, this episode quietly conveys that this conflict with the Dominion sucks in a lot of ways for a lot of people. I like million-person battle scenes in the moment, but stuff like this stays with me.

Just a reminder that the wormhole is the home of the Prophets. The Bajorans would very much appreciate it if they don't blow it up.

During an away mission the red shirts are killed, because they stayed on the ship! Hah what a funny twist to the TOS model.

I think, with Star Trek, you just kind of give them the setup of characters in a Runabout that probably shouldn’t be in a Runabout. They shouldn’t ever be doing it in the Gamma Quadrant after they learned about the Dominion, and it doesn’t really make sense that two characters on Voyager are out there on their own in a shuttle far enough away from Voyager that they can get in trouble either. It’s just the easy setup so there can be an episode.

I actually agree with you both on this one. When it comes down to it, I don't know or care about Munez, and all of these experienced Starfleet professionals have been in far worse situations on a weekly basis. I was distracted by trying to understand why they were emotionally fraying at the seams. I see what the episode is trying to do. But, it just doesn't work for me.