UNCUT - Apocalypse Rising (DS9 S5E1) | Star Trek Journey 425

Everyone knows alcohol kills germs, correct?

One of my favorite SCENE in this episode is Gul Dukat being told Chief Obrien is the father of Kiera's BABY!!!! Obrien got to have Kiera before DUKAT!!!

What! Kill off Robert O'Reilly?! I'm sure the producers and writers did not want to do that. His Gowron is such a fan favorite, and probably one of theirs, as well.

Poor Rene. Never catches a break. Even when he no longer has Changeling abilities, not only does he have to keep the Changeling make-up, he then has to be made up like a Klingon.

Josh, one thing you can take comfort in: Some people hype characters not because they become big but because they are always nothing burger characters. It's been years since I last watched DS9, so I genuinely don't remember, but it may be the case that Dukat's other guy becomes a bigger deal, but it also may be the case that he never shows up again. Audience members popping at a glup shitto character in trek doesn't mean that character will necessarily become a bigger deal. I bring it up because you seemed sour that you were spoiled by commentors enthusiasm, but I think if you keep this in mind it might help you feel less bad because enthusiasm genuinely can mean a lot of different things to different people. Just ask Ensign Gates.

If you're itching for some more Klingon content to react to, watch Star Trek: Klingon. It's a video game but you can watch the whole thing like a short movie on youtube. And you don't have to worry about spoilers cuz it came out in 1995. I think you'll both like it!

45:35 Actually yes, that's exactly what happened! Colm and Avery both HATED the klingon makeup.

alex I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed, why so grumpy??? Can't just enjoy a fun episode? Shatner's performance with his son's death not good? Come on! Dude I think it might be time to pick up weed smoking it'll make the show more fun...and take the edge off of life ;) It's ok you don't have to keep worrying about what's going to happen or what could be, trust everyone that it works out. just enjoy the ride my dude!

I have only one thing to say ...........GLORY TO YOU AND YOUR HOUUUUUUSE

Alex will definitely come to appreciate these episodes in retrospect. At the very latest once they get to Discovery.

I think this is where I've gotta bow out of this channel. I respect that there's no pretending going on, but Alex's constant downer attitude about DS9 is just not enjoyable to experience as a viewer. Especially because it seems as though he is down on the most nit-picky things, which kinda tells me that he just doesn't like the show in general, if the things he talks about can really colour entire episodes so much for him. It's a shame because I was enjoying your reactions to Trek more than any other reactors I've watched. I'm glad Josh is enjoying the show still, and I hope he continues to, and I wish you both all the success going forward!

I always thought it would be more appropriate if Odo was made bajoran rather than human. But my headcanon is that the Great Link made him human because his initial crime of killing another changeling was associated with Starfleet; a primarily human organization.

"make us wait" for Gowron...... There are bigger fish to fry

Thank you for the return of the white boards, it just felt wrong without it

I love this episode it’s a great season opener but I disagree killing gowron would be a bad move for the show, plus he’s a great actor! Speaking of drinking I notice there’s no fireball or ciders anymore how come!?

When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

at least Josh had fun. ^^

People are annoyed with Alex but I think it goes a long way to prove you guys are authentic. If you don’t vibe with something, speak your truth, even if it’s for superficial reasons. He’s still wrong. DS9 rules!

Outside of "Hard Time" and "The Quickening," I don't think there was a single episode Alex truly enjoyed in the entire second half of S4. The apathy for DS9 continues into S5. Just admit you don't like the show! It's okay -- it's not for everyone.

This episode was a banger nuff said

If you both got your wish that Gowron is killed by Worf it would have drastically changed the trajectory of the whole rest of the series. Be careful what you wish for because the reality is the shows trajectory takes a much better story line than anything you guys are coming up with. And, Alex, just admit you don't like DS-9. It just gets frustrating hearing all the changing requirements you need for this show to clear your bar.

Just because Ira Steven Behr was the showrunner, he still reported to Rick Berman who had to take input/orders from Paramount. The recap could have been mandated after the episode was written or put together by an editor without input from ISB. We know Josh can do trailers so I imagine he could do better recaps too. This was a great example of the DS9 producers not being locked in by doing a "Part 1" Season Finale. When Broken Link was written they absolutely planned on Gowron being the changeling. When they came back after the break it was decided to make it Martok instead.

Josh, teasing the return of the White Boards is cruel and unusual punishment. 😢

Gul Dukat is the best

fun fact, Jadzia Dax to be the fourth member of the undercover infiltration team sent to expose a Changeling posing as Gowron. Because of Dax's deep knowledge and love of Klingon culture, it made perfect narrative sense for her to go. However, because Farrell's skin could not tolerate the heavy rubber, glue, and prosthetics required to transform her into a Klingon, the writers had to alter the script. They replaced her character on the mission with Chief Miles O'Brien

Jake is all grown up. He went from wearing clothes made from upholstery to wearing clothes made from striped wall paper, like a true gentleman. Definitely higher on it than you guys. This is a solid A tier. WotW is definitely stronger, and it's about on par with The Search. I'd put this ahead of The Homecoming though. There's just so much to enjoy here. Dukat dressing himself up in military honors like a South American dictator, then being utterly confused at O'Brien being the baby's father, followed by amusement at seeing Sisko and the others in their klingon disguises. We got some great scenes between Sisko and Odo as he tries to help him through accepting being a solid. I love the scene where Kira admits it was Keiko's fault but says she'd rather blame Bashir. Once again, it's very natural sounding dialogue. Plus the episode is well directed overall. I do agree it would have been great to see Dax as a klingon, but I get that Terry had a bad reaction to the prosthetics. As for Odo's face, I don't buy into any "the audience won't recognize him without the makeup" theories. I've seen Rene in other roles and he doesn't look that different. The changelings left him looking like that to rub salt in the wound, remind him every day of what he lost. So why doesn't he get Bashir to give him a fully human face? It's because he's still clinging to his past as a changeling, and he's not ready to let it go yet. Shame Martok ended up being a changeling. I rather liked him in WotW. That said, Gowron is too entertaining of a recurring character to kill off IMO. And hey, we got several "glory to you, and your housssse" for the price of one in this episode. Plus it would be pretty hard to settle things down with the Klingons if they killed him. HardER that is, it's still going to be a challenge to get back to genuine peace. This episode also had one of the more brutal energy weapon effects we've seen in a while. When Martok shot the klingon guard outside the cells, you could see his ribs and internal organs for a brief moment. Reminded me of the effect from Loud as a Whisper, but much better executed. Solid start to a top tier season.

I'm not sure if you guys will see it this way, but when you guys are disappointed with big episodes like this one, you seem to be looking at it like a movie. You keep thinking too much about what you would do differently and disregarding any future plans the writers have. Such as your 10 minute rant about wishing they had killed Gowron. Did you really think that's the best option for episodic tv.... kill one of the best guest characters? Trust the writers have better ideas than yours.

Many here are talking about the dudes reactions to DS9, mainly Alex, and the sense that he's not into it and they're nitpicking. Though I agree with many of those assessments, I realize DS9 isn't for everybody, and I'm not gonna let it hurt my feelings; I didn't write, produce, direct, or act in it, and I don't own Paramount stock. But, where I do take issue is the dudes not giving DS9 the credit and respect it deserves. What I mean by that is there have been a number of times prior to S5 where they've made comments to the effect of 'Oh that's ballsy, bet it goes back to status quo by next episode' and an episode or so later they've proven wrong. You would think that by now, they'd give DS9 the benefit of the doubt but based on comments I'm still hearing, it's clear they do not. That's fine and all, and I won't go into detail so as to not even remotely spoil anything, but it's the one part of their reactions I wish they'd figure out.

Maybe its because of how when I first wstched I just on autopilot went to this episode I do not recall being concerned, I was just watching the show, on my own I always skip recaps and don’tmind if reactors do, and in subsequent watches I know so its more about the whole episode and continuing on

Got to be real, your guys criticisms feel increasingly bad faith or based on slight personal annoyances rather than real criticisms. Over the last season it's genuinely felt like alex in particular has a chip on his shoulder even as the show repeatedly serves what an episode or two earlier he says he wants. While taste is subjective, this increasingly feels like he feels entitled to the show being done exactly as he wishes and when it doesn't it makes him annoyed and he checks out rather than engaging with the series on the terms it was written. IDK maybe I'm off base, but if you see this alex, and to a lesser extent josh, I would challenge you both to genuinely reflect if you're actually approaching this and your other shows as unbiased as you think you are.

All I remember about this ep was people thinking Avery looked really hot as a klingon lol. Still think it's a pretty good opener.

They were locked in, josh and alex calling stuff early.

The Founders fooled Odo in the link. “Hiding” things from Odo or feeding him false information?

Again, Ill repeat what I said last season. While Josh really digs this show, Alex can't stand it. He is struggling and its clear in his eyes and the way he's explaining himself. That's valid! But yeah, I think it's obvious.

I do wanna say, Odo's face being human is another example of you (mostly Alex) focusing on something that doesn't matter that's falsely affecting opinions. It should not even be a factor.

but besides them klling Gowron, Martok would ascend to the leadership of the Empire so it's a two for one

I don't think Odo is supposed to be an alcoholic, he's just depressed

something you guys didnt comment on was the changeling showing himself in front of the Klingons. It's meant to show how he (unlike Salome Jens) hates Odo so much he loses his cool. I think we we are getting a vibe that Salome is the one who feels SHE failed in her mission to bring him back and the others hate him. Even the changeling Odo killed seemed to have some real anger towards gim, seeing him as a traitor. Salome commented that she thinks perhaps it was the Founders fault for senging out the 100. That would have been before they founded the Dominion and developed their hatred of solids

Also, remember from season 1 of TOS Kirk was on that planet where the governor killed half the population because the planet was behind the lines in the Klingong war. I think even going back to TOS, kirk really didnt like Klingons. They are the ones kirk had a direct expereince of their brutality with. Its realistic for someone to be open minded and anti-racist but have one prejudice. Your person favorite Mark twain was a big anti-imperialist anti-racist except when it came to native americans who he had direct expereince with.

There is a fan made show called "The House of D'Gholkus" focused on Klingons. There is also a book series, I. K. S. Gorkon. STO has the Klingons as one of two major factions along with the Federation and the Romulans as third faction and a minor campaign with the Dominion

The Klingons already killed their gods

It woud not make Worf the leader of the Klingons since he's regarded as a traitor. A klingon in good standing, yes

if they had resolved in episode of 7 you would need 7 episodes of a full scale Federation-Klingon war. You are right, the producers wanted to make the Klingons bad guys for worf coming back so they wrote that in and yes, this is kind of getting back to what they were going for. But we did have a season of Klingon-Federation hostilities.

yall are alo forgetting the internet wasnt what it was, and yes there were ways to access episode summaries but the majority of people didnt do that and if you missed an episode, that was that unless you were a hardcore trek fan who would tape all the episodes and in groups who would watch them over and over again

why do you guys want his face to change so much? Why do you think him having a differnt face would be so great?

well, if Worf killed Gowron that would lead to dramatically different long term consequences, and at this point they already have the big arc things planned out

I think Martok was supposed to be a changeling in Way of the Warrior. Noticed how he screamed at Gowron when Gowron said "enough" and called off the attack when Sisko talked him down

they planted it in his head when odo was in the great link. Odo said he sensed there were things they were hiding from him but they meant for Gowron's image to pop out because they wanted them to assisinate Gowron. Note in The Visitor when the Klingons take over DS9 and we dont hear from the Dominion in that timeline

You're assuming they did something to Odo remotely

Dax was supposed to be in this once but Farrell couldnt deal with the makeup

The idea with Sisko was he hit the Klingong out of anger because he was bragging about the starfleet people he killed. Sisko got a chance to get hi revenge in but make it sound like a logical reason Klingon

Gentlemen, welcome to season five! I agree with you this is not the strongest premiere, which is odd to say because this is easily my favorite season of Trek of any series. But it just gets better from here. I do think it was a good call to make Martok the changeling. It makes his scenes urging Golron to attack during Way of the Warrior much more the devil whispering in his ear in hindsight. One thing I love about this season is that it makes rewatching past seasons much more worthwhile in that way.

I read somewhere that they said we never met the real Martok? But if it’s a changeling in the way of the Warrior then he was very concerned about his son’s honor? ‼️

The Klingon empire doesn‘t have a king. It has an emperor, which is powerless and more like a symbol. Like in Japan. The leader is a chancellor.. Like in Germany.

You guys used to be terrible at guessing the behind-the-scenes machinations, but you're really good at it now. The "hey let's have a Klingon arc because Worf is here and we'll get back to the Dominion later" is precisely what happened.

Very surprised that Alex didn't like Shatner's scene in ST: III. For an actor who tends to overplay a lot of scenes, the fact that he was so subdued at first makes it work so much better for me. He's in shock that the son he thought he could finally have a relationship with has been killed. The shock, then sadness, then anger, one emotion after another.

It’s a shame the producers were not allowed to do what they wanted with this episode and expand it out.

The Martok reveal is great the Changlings are shown to be really devious and this fits with their motive. I’d agree probably not best season opener, but DS9’s season openers are so strong that’s not even criticism.

This is absolutely the episode I've been looking forward to seeing Damarr in. Perfection. Moving on now.

Solid A episode!

I really like this one. I would definitely put it above Emissary but yeah DS9 has some great season openers to go up against. But Alex's desires for an episode of TV continue to be enigmatic. Maybe we just need to get it through our heads that these high concept war story-type episodes are not his thing.

Is the recap having some dialog repeated really that huge a deal?

I'm pretty sure Martok was a Changeling in way of the warrior. He convinced Gowron to attack the Cardassians because Klingons were at peace for too long and needed an enemy to fight. If you re-watch way of the warrior... Martok was REALLY PISSED when Gowron stood down and stopped the fight with DS9 and the federation. Martok also behaved ODD when Worf Stole his son's knife. He should've fought him for his son's honor. He did'nt care about Honor there either. Finally you can see it on ODO face when martok says "There will be no honorable combat ..." Also Martok killed a bunch of innocent Klingons to get the guys to Gowron. Martok could've easily killed Gowron at any time. He needed Sisko/worf to kill him to keep war with Federation Going. Finally , Martok kept ODO back because he did'nt want ODO to get killed... The changeling still care about ODO even though he got another one of them killed. *Not really a spoiler spoiler warning* You guys need to re-watch DS9 after you finish Season 7. On re-watch you pick up on allot of story threads that you missed the first time. It's why some of us LOVE some of these episodes that you guys are MEH about. Seeing how they link to previous and future episodes... it makes them soo much better. Also the story arc as a whole improves allot of episodes on re-watch. For example: Knowing that martok is a changeling, you can go back and watch way of the warrior and look for signs. How did he fake the blood test. Which i don't think the blood tests ever worked, i don't think they've ever successfully caught a changeling. They can only catch amateur changelings like ODO. I think it was a fake basheir on S3 finale the adversary that presented them as a way to catch changelings. He used it to frame eddington i think... The adversary Bashier changed his hand into a blood drawer, made it look like he drew blood from eddington, then shook it to show eddington was a changeling, then reabsorbed it when no one was looking. I think Martok cut himself in way of warrior to show he bleeds... then reabsorbed himself/blood when he wiped the blood from the table with his hand.. Finally, it could've been Weyon who infected ODO , i have to go back and rewatch it... SEE even now i'm discovering more story threads to follow in older episodes.

Great episode. Alex let a minor annoyance ruin his entire attitude about the episode yet again

Odo is such a teenager. Rene does such a good job of mixing just a bit of youngster into this clever, curmudgeonly character. Of was a child sent out by the founders and that is still there. Overall this wasn’t my favorite episode. Sloppy plans (sending people known to Gowron and Martok as your undercover people? 🙄), lots of exposition. It was “fine”. I’m with Alex.

We are back!! And let me just say right off the bat that this is a top tier episode. Easily S- I think. I can't go full S because there's episodes that I love so much more. That's how good I personally believe this show gets. That takes nothing away from this and I have to think about it but (so FAR!) this may be the strongest starts to a season, bar none, with the possible exception of Way of the Warrior. It's close!

I think its fine to wrap this in one episode instead of having a longer arc with the question if Gowron is really a Fonder or not. Still, a few minutes less Dragonball placement game and a bit more Gowron talkin at the end would have been a better ending. With the few lines Gowron give, I'm left with the impression, that he didn't want an escalation with the Federation at all - Martok pushed for it, the other Houses are now bloodthirsty - and Gowron can't just end the conflict without the fear to be replaced by a 'strong leader' soon

Correct, if Worf had killed Gowron, that would have made him Chancellor of the Klingon Empire (although I would think civil war would immediately follow).

The intention was not for the Founders to infect Odo remotely. The intention by the writers was that Weyoun , the Vorta, had infected him by making contact with him during their corridor scene in To the Death, but Levar Burton ignored it decided to do an extreme close-up so you can't tell.

Worf as Klingon Boot Camp Drill Instructor is such a fun idea. Wouldn't surprise me if Dorn really does this for Klingon extras every time they have to shoot a scene with lots of 'em.

I agree 100% on Shatner's reaction to David's death being the only bad part of his ST3 performance I 100% disagree it doesn't justify his arc in ST6 but what else is new

Another thing about recap versus no recap is probably that the writers can't always predict the runtime... an episode may run long and have to be cut down, or (as maybe happened here) it can run short and the recap fills up the time-- in which case the repetitive dialogue is still needed for padding.

Coming home from work and treated to TWO reactions from my favorite reactors, it a nice treat.

Paramount+ needs to give us a Klingon "Game of Thrones style" show.

You were worked

I love this episode, lots of wholesome Klingon shenanigans. Plus they brought J.G. Hertzler back, he's awesome

As far as I know, Ira never wanted the Klingon storyline – he wanted to develop the Dominion as the enemy, not the Klingon Empire. But it was studio mandate for ratings to get Worf on board, and do Klingons because people like Klingons, so that's why you get the Klingon conflict in S4. So if you're wondering why Ira isn't escalating the conflict in this episode for example by killing Gowron but rather de-escalates: it's not the conflict he had his heart set on.

I wonder if Changeling!Martok was so intent about recognizing the Chief's face was because of the four of them, O'Brien was the only one to be mimicked by a changeling. Probably learned about being him from the Link. Speaking of Changeling shenanigans, it's been revealed that "useless" scene between Odo and Jeffery Combs in "To the Death" was supposed to have an insert of Weyoun touching Odo on the arm, and that THAT is how the Founders infected him. Finally, have you guys noticed Cirroc only tends to be at the starts, ends and just a little bit in the middle of every season? Almost like his appearances are scheduled around something else? Like say, whenever school is on break?

Chief O'Brien wasn't present at the end because he went home to Keiko in full Klingon gear for a reunion. Incidently, Kira was also babysitting Molly at Dax's place that night. :D

The only major criticism I have of this episode is that this is a prime example of wasting Jadzia. She was in on the plan with Sisko from the start. She knows how the devices work. She's an expert on Klingons. She should have been part of the mission instead of O'Brien. Can you imagine, Dax as a Klingon? My heart is a-fluttering at the thought! (And yeah, the whole allergy thing. Forgot about that. I'm sure they could have gotten around it if they tried - using a different material and limit the close-ups on her forehead (or give her a hat).)

Recaps and repetitive dialogue: back then, every episode of Star Trek could be someone's first episode; there's no guarantee everyone would start it on time at 8 Central. Some people might only join in after the first or second commercial break or while channel surfing. So they leave breadcrumbs for those viewers. It's not like today where you just pull the full episode up on streaming and everyone follows along. And networks being ratings focused because they get their money giving ad space to sell stuff to viewers, ensuring new viewers can follow along is important. It's not because they think a couple a 30-something-year-old reactors are too stupid to follow along.

Casey Biggs and Roxanne Dawson were married from 1985-1987, so both were divorced before either's appearance in Star Trek. Also I don't see this episode as shelving the Dominion arc, it's clearly part of it. It even includes a freaking changeling. The Dominion is not just about the Federation, it's about the entire Alpha quadrant, they've already meddled with both Romulans and Cardassians when they manipulated and orchestrated the the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order attack attempt.

This is by far my favorite season premiere so far. Yea, little irked Sisko didn't trigger the device quickly, but it's a minor point it's not something that would cause me to hate the entire thing like Peter Quill fucking up the Thanos fight in infinity war. Sorry, there's not enough money in the world to get me to even slightly care that they had a recap.

I agree with Josh that this was probably DS9’s weakest season premiere so far, which still makes it pretty solid. Ira had planned for this to be a two-parter, but the studio for some reason nixed that and told him to do it in one episode instead. Would probably have had more weight if they didn’t have to rush through it so fast.

I love how even when Dukat shows up in an episode to help he can't resist doing unimaginably fucked up shit

Josh bursting into laughter at the sight of Klingon O'Brien. Appropriate! 🤣

Fistful of Datas *was* a better fish-out-of-water episode, you're right. Flying into the sunset at the end? *Chef's kiss.* I was halfway through "Humbug" when this dropped, so I had to switch over. Priorities. Glad you enjoyed it!

We're back, baby!

Damn I guess I’m not sleeping tonight