UNCUT - The Chute (VOY S3E3) | Star Trek Journey 423

It's episodes like this that make me remember why I never liked voyager that much. Yet more "meh", endless meh.

"I've never let anyone see this, but I'm gonna let you read my manifesto. it'll teach you why Neelix really should call Porakan eggs just 'eggs'." - Alex probably

Jeri Taylor went on record saying she wanted a darker, grittier episode, but, she added, "Not this dark."

I always thought this would have been better with no go backs to voyager, also I agree the clamp should have been found to do nothing , then it was all on human nature

Very good appraisal

I don’t know for voyager this wasn’t horrible

First time watching this: The fact that Janway was initially willing to do the dirty work of this clearly tyrannical government and give up a few freedom fighters is pretty shitty both broadly ethically and also in the context of the prime directive I also can't hand wave off how dumb it was for them to be doing a shore leave here. Otherwise it was an almost okay episode but those two factors made it bad for me.

Holy shit you haven't watched Andor yet??? Insane. You gotta fix that.

Pretty horrible episode. Meant to be forgotten. 3 seasons in, 10 minutes closer to home. Boring distractions like this episode.

Extremely mid episode with only like 2 good moments, Janeway coming to the rescue and Tom saying the line about Harry being his friend

i love when they say "regroup" in movies and TV, but they are just one ship. Regroup with whom?

Not one of my favourites. I watched it in about 2006 with the rest of Voyager, and this is my first time since, it might be another 20 years before I watch this one again.

I really liked Harry Kim on my first watch 20 years ago, but I'm struggling to warm up to him on this second run. I just don't really buy his emotions this time around. Tom Paris, on the other hand, works much better for me on the second watch and was pretty much the only ray of hope for me in this episode.

I remember thinking Season 3 is supposed to be some new direction for the show after we destruct the crappy Kazon and Chakotay storyline... And this is what they give us?

I like that idea that the clamp isnt a thing, but then it would be a little hard to believe some of what happens with Kim and Paris

yeah, as far as Kim not leading the revolution, there are a lot of plot threads sort of touched on that don't really go anywhere

it's not that Janeway didn't agree or disagree, she was just saying her interest was her crew. The little girl was calling her a coward for refusing to take a position, and Janeway's response is just to say they should get a shower and hotmeal, not addressing it rather then trying to explain or defende her position and the prime directive

As far as the episode not knowing what it wantes to say, the show was from a leftover script from from Michael Piller, and Kenneth Piller said it was difficult because successful prison movies take place over a long time, and the nature of Voyager wouldn't allow that. DS9 had a device that allowed that to be worked in they couldn't reuse. So the episode was supposed to be about a test of Kim's humanity who was one of the most mellow characters, but to bridge the "people losing touch with their humanity as time passes and hope diminishes" they came up with the Clamp, but Kenneth Piller felt that killed the essential heart of the episode because KIm was under an alien influence so it didn't really have the same impact. That might be what you are feeling with regards to that. However, Piller was surprised by how generally well received the episode was. I think it works fairly well without necessarily having a central theme. To me, the bigger issue is Janeway not struggling with the fact Voyager is limited in helping what seems like an obviously righteous cause in Open Sky which doesn't really come up. If they wanted to make Open Sky more ambigous they could have civilians killed in the attack as opposed to just the military officers but as it stands it seems like Open Sky are legitimate freedom fighters and we never dive into how the prime directive limits Voyager from helping or rescuing the other OPen Sky operatives. I think that angle would have given more weight to it. Also Janeway comes off as sort of naive her and the problems Voyager deals with instead of compelling seem contrived. You never get the sense the enemy ships are a threat to Voyager and they could have easily disabled them, but the premise of not doing so is in wanting to prove Kim and Tom;s innocence, which comes off as absurd given what we've seen of this government. The Voyager sides of things just seems like a bit of a mess where the plot is written in a way that just creates an arbitrary process. The rescue kind of undercuts what goes on with Kim and Paris which is the much stronger part of the episode as it has nothing to do really with what's set up there.

" I never felt as heavy as the show wanted me to" To me that's a byproduct of the very episodic nature of Voyager. You guys like episodic tv, but given the lack of long term consequences I feel the lack of weight comes with the territory

well, their characters are supposed to be "off" because they have neurostimulators messing with their head. By the way, the doctor;s description of acetlycholine wasn't accurate. Adrenaline or even noradrenaline would have been a better neurotransmitter to pick. Acetlycholine is the primary neurotransmitter accounting for the vast majority of synaptic communication. It IS an "excitatory" neurotransmitter but it's functions are extremely varied. I would guess the writers saw "excitatory" and assumed aggression. Now if the device targetd specific acetlycholine receptors sure. But this is not great science as it's stated. Trek does better with physics and generally biology then neuroscience. I remember "The Game" talking about serotenergic function which they clearly mistook with dopamine.

Argument- They aren't terrorists. The bombing killed 47 military officers, not civilians, thus was a legitimate military target. "Terrorism" doesnt just mean a rebel force. It's when people kill civilians to inspire terror in the general population for a political end. It doesn't mean "rebels". This is a common tactic, for a state to call it's enemies "terrorists" to delegitamize them, but "terrorism" has an established meaning that makes it a "special evil." You can't just call any group who uses insurgent tactics "terrorists." By that logic, partisans fighting Nazi occupation are "terrorists." This used to be recognized, that established states can also used terrorist tactics, ie "The terror bombing of London" when the Luftwaffen switched from military to civilian targets.

I do wish we could be a bit more creative with aliens then "humns with bumpy foreheads" TNG gets criticized for this but Voyager is worse with this in my opinion. In unofficial sources the homeworld of the presevers in the Beta Quadrant but it seems they were able to seed the whole galaxy pretty effectively.

A neat bit of trivia, the actress of plays the 14 year old girl was the daughter of an actress who was in the TOS episode "By Any Other Name"

This is also a rare chance to see the acting skills of Garret Wang being displayed, and it seems like when they actually give him something to do, he has the chops. It's unfortunate his character, like Chakotay, is kind of milquetoast and ill defined.

This was a good episode, but the prime directive doesn't seem to come up which should have been a major thing. In fact, Voyager seems kind of inconsistent with the Prime Directive. It seems like there are internal affairs here that should have come into consideration. Voyager potentially turning over the Open Sky members (maybe a bluff) would have been a violation I think. It should have come up as a reason they couldn't assist the OPen Sky people who from what we've seen come off as sympathetic as this governmenr seems totalitarian.

It was the first episode of Season 3, the first episode produced in Season 3.

Perhaps I'm projecting what I know of the characters from later back onto the episode, but I've always been a fan of this one. It's not without flaws, and I wouldn't put it up against Hard Time or anything, but I give it a solid B+. The performances range from decent to good, the direction memorable, and we get a pretty crucial development in Tom and Harry's friendship akin to Bashir and O'Brien in Armageddon Game. Paris has been sort of a big brother to Kim since they met, and even saved him on a few occasions, and now Kim gets to return the favor. I honestly don't get the patron take saying Neelix is at his MOST annoying here. I mean sure he got caught up in the moment finally getting to do something more exciting than cooking, and as such wasn't necessarily the best getaway driver, though I can't blame him for angling for a shot at the helm. But being a little over ambitious and overly talkative when he should be gunning it? Is anything here honestly more annoying than him refusing to let Tuvok be a vulcan in peace, or the whole jealousy arc in early S2? This is like a 2/10 on the annoying Neelix scale. A couple notes on the guest stars. Rosemary Morgan who played Piri, is the daughter of Julie Cobb, who played Yeoman Thompson in By Any Other Name(the one who got turned into a D20 dice and then crushed). Julie Cobb was also married to James Cromwell for about 20 years, making him her stepfather at the time of this episode. And Robert Pine who played ambassador Liria is the father of Chris Pine.

I came away feeling the same way Josh did. The writing was meh and kind of all over the place. The performances were mostly so-so, especially from our 2 crewmembers in the prison. Another C episode for Voyager for me.

Someone imagined that cool Janeway down the chute shot and then wrote an episode around it.

Have you guys ever done a rewatch of 6? The sum of its parts are greater than the whole. Spock, Chekov, Uhura conducting an investigation. Christopher MF plummer’s performance! Joseph sisko being one of the bad guys! Odo playing one of the bad guys! Micheal Dorn Cameo! TOS’ final outing, our first look at zero G. The Kirk/ Bones Bromance is a highlight. Sulu is a Captain!

Episode is better than I remember. Acting is good from our main characters and some of the guests. The prison is horrific if you think about it too hard.

I just wanted to say a few things. I was 15 when Voyager came out. I was already a fan of Star Trek and the meaning that one day us humans would work together as one. But the one thing I loved about Voyager over any other Star Trek that you reacted to so far is the unknown Lost in Space adventure, but I always watched it alone so I only had my own perspective of not only Voyager but all Star Trek... And that's why I joined Target Audience, It might be jarring at times, seing your favorite episodes get disliked but also now I love episodes that I hated thank to these two friends working stupidly hard over the last few years, making this happen. I know I'm getting really professional, honest take so yea lucky to be a part of this community and amazing times ahead.

This episode is the definition of 'kind of alright, I guess'. All the elements of a great episode are there - but as you said, the execution just isn't quite there. I actually think the episode could have done with a different introduction - having Tom and Harry enjoying shore leave, explosion goes off, security show up and arrest them. Then cut forward to them arriving in the prison after the intro. This would have created the tonal shift, that the society that does this to people seems like a nice happy place - but hides a deep dark secret. Because as it is - this planet just gives me vibes of "this place sucks" and makes me wonder why anyone would want to visit it, we see nothing positive about it.

I think this episode highlights just how important writing is for making a good episode. Good concept. Good direction, but everything feels flat. I think, more than any other series in the franchise back then, Voyager suffered from this most often. That being said, sticking with the show does bear some great rewards.

I like the next few better. Neelix’s ship is a classic DS9 Ferengi look

If only there was a character named Dick on the show who could hang out with them.

I think TNG coddled to much

A fine episode with a number of standout moments that unfortunately don't elevate it.

I'm happy this one didn't get resolved by Voyager fighting their way through enemy lines. Subterfuge was the more interesting direction for the save. Even Neelix got a rare chance to shine, but of course he also has to ruin it by running his mouth.

This one isn’t pleasant to watch, noisy, but the character moments and the end are great

This also is an episode of Star Trek Voyager.

I agree with the patron take re: Janewayms behavior. I found it odd that she was cool with trading a 14 year old girl’s lifelong freedom to what seemed like an unjust or harsh penal system for just a chance at getting Harry & Tom back. It felt like they cut a scene where she must have had a moment of realization regarding that and the cowardice comment.

It's weird yal watching in release order. I had already watched all of ds9 b4 starting Voyager. I remember liking this episode. The meat of the episode is character stuff. But now it just feels like chop b4 ds9's return.

As ill advised and ridiculous as it was Janeway sliding down the chute with a rifle was badass

i liked it

Is it me or is the guest actor in this one doing a better acting job than Garret Wang? They abandoned Zio in that prison and nothing changed, what a terrible ending.

Harry could've taken the manifesto the ONE PLACE that hasn't been corrupted by Capitalism... SPAAAACE

I like it :)

I totally forgot this one. I agree, something seemed just a little off about everyone. It felt like an early S1 episode where everyone was still learning their roles, except Voyager's season 1 was a lot more self-assured than this. And as you said, the score was great. The direction was fantastic. I reflexively give bonus points when they actually let Garrett Wang act. But all of that didn't come together. You know what would have helped? A close-up shot when Harry scatters the papers where we learn that the title page says "MY MANIFESTO" in crayon. Would really have set the tone, I think.

Once again, Voyager delivers an episode that's just fine. It had some good moments, but really falls under the heading of "just entertaining enough." Solid C+ stuff, mostly because of Tom & Harry.

Well, it's an episode. Gah, I wanna get back to DS9 already. Can anyone older than me tell me if we had any airdates back then where we had a nice string of DS9 without Voyager for a few weeks? lol

Oh, Chute.

The scene when Kim is about to bash in Tom's head always gets me.

"all i remember is someone saying "this man is my friend, nobody touches him" i'll remember that for a long time." I really like any ep can highlight the Harry Kim Tom Paris friendship!

I feel like this is another stargate sg1 clone episode.