Deep Space Nine Season 4 TOP 10 Episodes & Season Recap

I came here to watch the first 5 mins of each top 10 discussion so I could figure out which one I wanted to watch first (because I’m not a slave to release order). Then less than 2 minutes in, Alex brings out his Voyager list and starts reworking it. I’m frantically trying to hit pause, and instead hit the skip forward button. I get why y’all hate spoilers. I guess I did this to myself…. Oh well, off to watch your ST TMP reaction now that I’ve seen the movie all the way through (in the theater!). I’ll come back to this quandary later.

S: The Way Of The Warrior, Starship Down, The Visitor, Rules Of Engagement. A: For The Cause, To The Death, Our Man Bashir, Home Front/Paradise Lost, Broken Link, Return To Grace, Indescretion, Little Green Men. B: Crossfire, Hard Time, Bar Association, Sons Of Mogh, The Sword Of Kahless, Body Parts, Rejoined, Shattered Mirror. C: Accession, Hippocratic Oath. D: The Quickening, The Muse.

I miss the old whiteboard grades. The new system is basically overly simplified into 4 boxes: - E/D ("awful") - C/B ("just fine") - A ("great, but not a personal favorite") - S ("personal favorite") In particular, everything between a C- and a B+ being bundled together as "just fine" or "contract filler" is such a shame. That's a huge and meaningful range in quality that the guys no longer distinguish between. There doesn't seem to be a spot anymore for "good, not great, but better than 'just fine'" -- i.e. a 'B' type grade. Sad, and a little annoying at times.

okay, you convinced me. Will start the X-Files for the first Time. Will catch up in the next few Weeks.

The last 5 minutes of this were my favorite. I’m not sure who is more excited for S5, me or Josh? I’m not going to get into season rankings and be a spoiler guy. BUT, since you did pick on TNG season 5, I think we need a bonus video next season. DS9 season 5 Vs. TNG season 5!! It would be like an MMA fighter beating up on a child 😂💀😩.

Agreed that this is the best season of Star Trek to date. I also agree that DS9 is it's own worst enemy when it comes to it's quality. The highs are just so much higher here, that when it makes a safe or less inspired creative choice, it feels like a precipitous fall. Had Voyager been released before DS9, I probably would have liked it more because it's basically just more TNG with a fresh coat of paint. DS9's bolder direction for the franchise became my prefered flavour, which really made Voyager feel like a graniola bar in comparisson. I'm being a bit reductive to Voyager, but you know what I mean. The cast is still great. It's just that the stories lack ambition.

My Top 10 Episodes from DS9 season 4: 1. The Visitor (S) 2. Our Man Bashir (S) 3. The Quickening (S) 4. Hard Time (S) 5. Little Green Men (A+) 6. Hippocratic Oath (A+) 7. Accession (A) 8. The Way of the Warrior (A) 9. Rules of Engagement (A) 10. Crossfire (A)

I think the main difference between X-Files mytharc, and DS9s, and why the X-Files appeals to you more is the X-Files mytharc is a mystery. Both the arc as a whole, and the individual arc episodes themselves. So the mystery, and the twists, and the stuff you didn't see coming keeps you engaged. The big picture story in DS9 though isn't a mystery. It's not about that. It's all about world building and learning more about how species like the Founders, Vorta, Jem'Hadar, Bajorans, and Cardassians work, especially when compared to the Federation. Whether it's their politics, ideologies, social structure, religious beliefs, or their affect on the Alpha Quadrant, learning more about these species and building the world, and having them all interact with each other and affect that world is what makes that arc interesting. This was the whole point of To The Death. Weyoun was the first ACTUAL Vorta that we ever saw. Every Vorta that we saw before then was basically a proto 1-dimensional Vorta that hadn't been figured out yet. Just like the Ferengi in their first TNG episode. But in To The Death, we learn their role in the Dominion, and how they are going to be portrayed now going forward. You guys said that this episode told us nothing new, but it's real job was to refine what we already knew, and make the Vorta and the heirarchy within the Dominion clear. The Vorta command and administer the White to the Jem'Hadar even though they have no combat knowledge themselves. The Jem'Hadar are the Dominion's soldiers, but the Vorta are the Dominion's diplomats and strategists. Also, the Jem'Hadar have a code of honor while the Vorta have none whatsoever, and don't even care about the ritual they have to do while administering the White. And by putting these groups up against the Federation, we learn even more about their nature by seeing them fight as soldiers. A federation captain like Sisko will go down and fight and die alongside his troops, while believing that every life matters, but a Vorta stays comfortable and cozy in a runabout away from all the fighting until his expendable troops have accomplished the mission for him. We also see that the Vorta, along with the Jem'Hadar, worship the Founders as gods. We learned a TON of subtle information like that about these races in that episode, which is why most of us like it. N-types, which is most of the fanbase, live for this kind of stuff where the world and races feel real, smart, believable, and interesting. It's just that none of that information interests you guys. At least not as much as other things that this show has to offer. Also, I don't think much of us care about how good an individual episode is on its own in isolation the way that you guys do. When it comes to the overarching story, we judge that story as a whole. Was it good enough to keep us engaged throughout the whole show? Do we want to experience that story again? It's like completing a puzzle. I don't care about how well an individual puzzle piece was made. I care about it's place in the overall completed puzzle, and that completed puzzle is what I'll be judging, not the individual pieces.

Wait. Josh says "I can't relate to being a Changeling, NECESSARILY." - and earlier he had the word "malleable" right on the tip of his tongue. I see what's going on here. Alex, you have to stop him! I'm saying - he's one of them Josh - the guy from Target Audience -- is a

Thanks dudes, you just saved my work morning by posting this.

Patrons Alex Josh 1- The Visitor 1- The Visitor 1- The Visitor 2- Way of the Warrior 2- Way of the Warrior 2- The Quickening 3- The Quickening 3- The Quickening 3- Homefront 4- Hard Time 4- Crossfire 4- Crossfire 5- Homefront 5- Hard Time 5- Rejoined 6- Our Man Bashir 6- Hippocratic Oath 6- Hard Time 7- Indiscretion 7- Homefront 7- Return to Grace 8- Paradise Lost 8- Indiscretion 8- Sword of Kahless 9- Return to Grace 9- Little Green Men 9- Way of the Warrior 10- Little Green Men 10- Return to Grace 10- Indiscretion Honorable mentions Rejoined Rejoined Hippocratic Oath For the Cause Bar Association The Muse Hippocratic Oath The Muse Rules of Engagement Crossfire Rules of Engagement The Garak/Ziyal story was in For the Cause. Wow! 2 lists in a row where the patrons and you guys all have the same #1, and honestly not all that different lists. 7 episodes are on all 3 lists, with only 14 total represented. In Voyager's case it perhaps more predictable given how many crap eps there are in S2 that were never going to get more than a few votes. But with DS9, there's so much good to choose from in S4. It's almost like TA and the patrons are developing a hive mind and influencing each other's likes and dislikes. You know in some ways, we're even worse than the Borg!

20:24 That's right. It's all nepotism and blowjobs.

"It's who ya know, or who ya blow!" "Mr. Worf.... 'Fire'!" LOL

Salami Jens 😂

Thinking a bit about the conversation at the beginning about serialization, and it occurs to me that sometimes by talking about and ranking the show episode-by-episode can maybe make one miss the forest for the trees. Don't get me wrong - I love critiquing episodes and ranking them and so forth. But sometimes the serialized stuff, even if it happens in an episode that's weak on its own, can contribute to the success of the series as a whole. I guess what I'm saying is maybe there are two ways of evaluating things: How much did I enjoy this episode, or that episode? vs. How much did I enjoy the whole journey? And maybe sometimes a creative choice can be bad for the episode but good for the series. I don't know, just musing here...

Body parts was high on my list. lol I guess I’m the only one

Pseudo Hot-Take: DS9 is my favourite series of the entire franchise, but Sisko is near the bottom of favourite Captains. Over the years, I've tried to figure out just exactly why and the best answer I could come up with is that it's because he simply isn't a "captain". He's just any other run of the mill character on this show. Sisko's authority doesn't feel the same as with Kirk, Picard, or Janeway because he's not some badass sailor forging through uncharted space with everyone else looking up to him all day every day. The crew (and by proxy, the audience) still respect him, but less like a man who has our lives in his hands every week, and more like how we might see the mayor of a small town. For better or worse, that is always going to make him less exciting. Since the station doesn't move, Kirk/Picard/Janeway are always going to feel like more active protagonists, making life or death decisions for their crew, while the best Sisko can really do is tell people to get off his lawn. Sisko definitely still has some badass moments (in fact, he has *the* most badass moments), but the premise of the show ensures that they are fewer and farther in between. You couple that with the fact that the rest of the characters (both primary and secondary) are so ridiculously strong, and soon he just becomes "any another character" instead of THE captain.

For me, the draw of "To the Death" is all the scenes on the ship preparing for the mission, watching these enemies trying to work together, watching this growing tension, the interplay between Sisko, the Jem'hadar commander, and Weyoun, the character moments with Worf, and with Dax. Totally fine, of course, if that stuff didn't work for you; just want to point out that for those of us who do love the episode, it's not necessarily just because it's a "big plot" episode.

You both mentioned how generic the episode titles have been. I can think of some in DS9 S5 that you’ll definitely like.

I think, just in terms of consistency and episode hit rate, DS9 season 4 might be the peak of this Trek era. Just pick any random episode to watch and it’s probably a good one. Then, when you add in eps like The Visitor, TWOTW, The Quickening, and Hard Time that I think would show up on a lot of fans’ top 20 Star Trek episodes list, season 4 has a solid case for best Trek season ever, IMO.

Josh, you articulated the divergence between us well. The production elements of an episode need to hook you in; the story is secondary. Or 50/50? I think for many Trekkies and general sci-fi nerds, the story is 80%. Even 90% at times. The technicals still matter and if they're utterly atrocious, that can pull us out of it. Otherwise, it's enough to hold its own weight. Even to the extent I'd say that we're blinded by the overall "quality" that you both seek out first and foremost. I would say, knowing what comes later may slightly enhance my pleasure in rewatches of, for instance, "To The Death," but it's not at all the primary factor of love and praise that we dish out. I was enthralled by it on my very first watch decades ago (I do not like using the plural on that word...) In addition, I think many of us are drawn to fighting, battles, military professionalism and command, competency porn for their own sake. Coupled with intriguing story elements, we're off to the races. I have to say Alex, I never expected Bashir to become your favorite, but I'm all for it! There can never be too much Bashir / Alexander Siddig glazing (and he's still acting to this day, though I won't say in what shows). It's an interesting dynamic too, baked into the question of who is your favorite character... is it purely relating how that person is written in-universe, or a mixture of that in addition to the acting performance? For me it's a fusion of both. But it's why Picard is my favorite of all time, carried on the back of Top 5 world-class acting ability. In DS9, I think René Auberjonois is the true acting standout, with Nana Visitor as a close second. And I do love his changeling backstory and personality too. But in this case, it's a reverse, while I think Alexander Siddig is a great actor (better and better over time), it's more about his in-universe personality and drive that I connect with so much and why he's my #1. DS9 is the most "ensemble" of any Trek show so far. The Kira & Dukat dynamic is riveting and puts me on edge, in a good way. There's no wrong choice.

You said the Cardassian-Klingon conflict isn't Founder related but we found out the Chancellor is a Founder which brings the whole chain of afairs into question.

If you want to reduce the suspension of disbelief for a different actress, imagine she was basically starved at the Breen Colony and this is what she would have looked like had she been healthy fed and treated decently, so the person was older then the actress ppeared to be, als Cardassians, yada yada. I didn't notice the recast of Braums. Took me completely by suprise to learn that. I guess that's a sign of good acting.

Supposedly Dukat was only supposed to be in the pilot but they loved the actor so much they wrote him into the show.

To bridge the difference, I think it's important to remember we had already been into trek and had watched TOS and TNG but over a different time frame. For a lot of us all the tropes you are so familair with, star trek was our first exposure. That made us care about the world, and the fate of theat world... and as I'm older I see the thematic ties between other parts of the story you're not seeing. Ben's slow evolution. Bajor amd Cardassia and the grief of real healing and what it means here. The history of cardassia, now under civilian rule and losing a war to the klingons where the Klingons basically wait for ideal conditions if they want a planet, and they won't do anything becaus they dont want to porvoke them further. All these have these thematic threw lines that echo the "bigger themee" The Dominion represent and existential threat to the federation. The last time, as fans, we had a collective memory of that was the Borg. Which took 2 episodes to set up a story reduced from its original plan as a serialized direction for the show (TNG) as a season long arc... And it cast such a collective effect on the fans where the media noticd TNG and were talking about it... anyway, The Dominion isnt quite the Borg but it's the anti-federation. Founders who are not humanoids who dont trust to the point of hate, humanoids, then create races of slaves to do their bidding and addict them to a drug only they can supply? It's the antthessis of the Federation and it seems like it has all the advanatges. So there are themes running here but I do think its only possible if you're bought into the bigger world which probably is different in terms of the way you're experiencing this. So when you're grokking that interconnected theme, which yes, could be influenced by knowing where it's going and seeing what is being set up take shape, you can really appreciate everythin they were TRYING to do.... and I would say it's probablu just a different expereince, because watching DS9, it was like Trek had grown up in some way, was taking itself and its premises seriously.... I did lose interest originally more due to puberty and other things being more interesting. But I saw in reruns the shape of it and every timw I filled in more blanks ait was still great. It's also the way some people prefer some things. You guys have a preference for the episodic, but I did watch that mini-series Midnight Mass and I felt that really worked as a whole thing, looking at it episodely would be weird because of the early mystery and the sense of growing momentum. And I thought that was great. But because of the nature of it I couldn't look at it as purely episodic. Anyway, felt like writing, hope you guys mention the legendary guest performance by Jeffrey Combs as Vorta Weyoun! I'm sure that was a highlight of the season for you! Really, nice review, interesting and very infromative, well done.

While I love TOS and Enterprise I will only rank the seasons of TNG, DS9, and Voyager. As you know teir lists are hard but of TNG its seasons 6 & 5, then 4 & 3, then 2 & 7 then 1. For DS9 seasons 5 & 3, seasons 4 & 2, seasons 6 & 1 and season 7. Voyager seasons 1, 2, and 4, seasons 7, 6, and 3 and season 5. Ranking them together wouldn’t work because I go to them for different reasons. And I am being nice because season 1 of TNG would be equal with its season 7 for me the same with DS9 season 7, its about certain choices that were made more than general execution. I like them more than I used to. And while I put season 5 of Voyager as my least favorite for them there are at least ten episodes I really like there more than seasons 1 & 7 of TNG and season 7 of DS9. I guess season 3 and 5 of Voyager could be switched or equal, I like a lot of those stories but prefer other seasons.

I was worried when they could not stop praising X-Files and talking down the Dominion plot in the beginning. And then …

Without saying why: DS9 S6 > DS9 S5> DS9 S7 = DS9 S4 For me, it gets better for the next 2 seasons and then dips back

Second gen trek rankings: TNG3, DS94, TNG4, DS93, TNG6, TNG5, DS92, TNG2, TNG7, DS91, VOY2, VOY1, TNG1 With The Visitor and Way of the Warrior being the two biggest all time bangers

A minor correction for something Josh said Not to take anything away from her achievement, but Majel Barrett wasn't the first Star Trek actor to get a writing credit for a Trek episode. That fell to Walter Koenig who wrote one episode of Star Trek: The Animated Series - "The Infinite Vulcan" (AKA - The "Giant Spock" episode).

The writers wanted to have Worf get his edge back and make mistakes because by TNG season 7 he had been defanged and was just a guy with a big head.

Fantastic discussion, guys, as always. Across this franchise, there are so many great episodes I love so much, but there's precisely one that makes me cry big, ugly tears every time, and it's The Visitor. Also, about that moment in The Quickening when Dax is yelling "Julian" and then switches to "Doctor." That's the kind of thing that would have been a paragraph of dialogue in a lesser show. On this show it just takes the right person saying the right word.

Off the top of my head, if I were to rank all the 90s Trek seasons we've seen so far, this would be the order (Best to Worst): TNG S4, DS9 S4, TNG S6, DS9 S3, TNG S3, TNG S7, DS9 S2, TNG S5, VOY S2, VOY S1, TNG S2, DS9 S1, TNG S1.

Again, missed my chance, but I think my top 3 would be: 3) Crossfire; 2) The Quickening; 1) The Visitor. Peak Star Trek and peak storytelling / acting in my opinion...which means nothing. DS9 is the best! I keep telling ya. Season 5!!

That's high praise from you, Josh. For me, I still think TNG Season 4 is the best season we've had so far, simply for the sheer number of S-rank episodes it has but DS9 Season 4 comes very close. It's certainly more consistent.

On my first watch of DS9, Julian was also my favorite despite S1 Julian being one of the most annoying main characters in all of the Treks, but I always come out with a different fave on subsequent watches (which admittedly were never *full* rewatches with no skips). My favorite has switched between Julian, Miles, Dukat, Odo, Quark, Rom, Garak, and a few others, whereas in the other shows my #1 is either unwavering (Bones) or a coin toss between 2 characters (Picard/Data, EMH/Tom).

30 extra minutes compared to Voyager? Nice. And makes sense. Voyager's plots and episodes mostly stand on their own merit. DS9, even the 'episodic episodes', are built upon the entire season. It takes longer to really talk about what's going on! Plus, you know. Its two seasons ahead.

Its funny people call Ferengi episodes comedy, I never found them generally funny just usually good tv

DS9 was often referred to as the middle child Trek show back in the day. Hilarious that Josh nailed it exactly.

Time to grab a beer and clear my calendar, because the TA DS9 recap just dropped. I mean, my calendar had nothing on it, but still. LFG.

*Shoots up the hood of Josh’s car from Nakatomi Plaza* “Welcome to the party, pal!”