UNCUT - Broken Link (DS9 S4E26) | Star Trek Journey 420
Comments (102)
Superb episode. Definite S Level. Great character development.
These reviews have got so disappointing. Voyager and DS9, "yeah its fine". Guys i thought i'd give it one more chance but there's no enthusiasm and just taking the piss out of minor details in the episodes. I wont be renewing again, sorry guys. Best of luck.
Agreed. Time to cancel for me too.
Odo is now an outcast of the changelings. Before meeting his people, he was an outcast among humanoids. His face will still be that reminder that despite having a humanoid body, he will remain an outcast among the humanoids. It makes perfect sense.
Yep, has nothing to do with the studio or the writers not trusting the audience if Odo's face changed. It makes perfect sense for the *character* and the arc he is on. If anything, it would have been cheaper and easier for the show to just use the actor's face. This choice was made with purpose by the writers.
I know people say this at literally every episode, season, and show, but I'm so SO excited for you guys to get into Season 5, which contains 2 out of my 5 top ever Star Trek episodes (any Star Trek). Even if it turns out you hate them both, it's going to be so much fun hearing your takes.
No, I don’t find their negativity in general fun at all. I don’t think it helps to be watching so many episodes and other stuff in a short time frame. When we watched DS9 and Voyager in the 90s we had to wait considerable time for new seasons and episodes to be aired. It made it special - TA have had no experience of what it was like to be a Trek fan in the 60s , 70s, 80s and 90s. They don’t have the patience or attention span to do the programme justice.
Remember the last time the "tried" it was a ruse, the planet was deserted as it was their plan to lure the fleet to destruction. It didn't do anything because they were faked readings. Also this is the reason for the new homeworld, they had to move after they were aware of and intending to destroy the former.
Now all we need is for Odo to look at Cassidy Yates and put Alex's mind at ease.
alex you already forgot the founders changed homeworld when the romulans attacked ? they destoyed their former homeworld but they had left and it was a trap
I was surprised you were not more into this episode, but after your comments and some of the viewer comments, I get it. I loved this one, finding the scenes character driven while moving along the plot. I remember being floored by that last scene. Yes, we all talked about the episodes on the AOL message boards , and despite an occasional hint dropped by Ron Moore there were no real spoilers. We were really stunned by the Gowron reveal. And we had to wait and talk about it all summer. It was a different viewing experience.
If you loved WandaVision, you would like/love Agatha All Along.
Lol. A chunk of the discussion is complaing about when things are too spelled out for idiot audiences, followed quckly by complaints about things being unclear. 😅
I think that what DS9 did with their season finales in seasons 2,3,&4 is imply a to be continued in the next season and arguably in the rest of the show. That didn’t box them in to write a part 2 which wraps things up from part one. My guess is Josh and Alex and most DS9 fans really like that way of doing it more than the TNG route because it sets up a whole season and not just a part 2.
It's pronounced "Salami"
I disagree about the face thing, let's be honest are you going to fire your makeup people who turn up to work every day to do the Odo makeup just because you made a plot choice? No! Deep space nine was a major Hollywood production filmed on the Paramount Pictures lot in Los Angeles, California, it operated completely under standard industry union rules. Besides do you want your makeup people to get sloppy or sit around in the hopes they are needed that day to do the makeup for some guest alien character I think not. Oh and I believe the American pronunciation of Salome is something that sounds more like "Sallow May"
It sounds like you agree it was for a real life reason, just a different real life reason.
Wow. No new DS9 reactions until September 17. Whatever will we do?!?
Founder: They're dead, you're dead, Cardassia is dead Garak: Cowabunga it is then ૮ ˶ᵔ ᵕ ᵔ˶ ა ~ ⋆｡°✩ ~ genocide ~ ⋆｡°✩ ~ ૮ ˶ᵔ ᵕ ᵔ˶ ა
Garak said "You first".
I also noticed that the episode looked a little different, like they cranked up the sharpening or something. I hope this is just a one off and the rest of the show doesn't look like that because it looked pretty bad.
It almost looked like they switched to video tape or something and had that soap opera look
so we are happy with "to be continued" episodes as long as "to be continued" is not directly written on the screen. gotcha. oh my god you make me laugh sometimes.
The issue with 'To be continued...' is that it creates an unfinished STORY. EG: Time's Arrow, Descent, or Best of Both Worlds. This by contrast is not an unfinished story. Odo's sickness is resolved, Garak gets his question answered, the crew leaves and returns safely. Everything that was an element of the episode's story was wrapped up at the end. Sure, there are multi-season arcs, plots, and themes that remain outstanding, but that's what 'serialized' means, and why it is different from a 'part 1/2' dynamic
"you're all dead" I took it as her announcing her intention to kill all the Cardassians, ALL OF THEM, for attacking them. Hence Garek's reaction. He has took the message as a threat to his entire race, so of course he's willing to die to destroy them. Like how they destroyed that planet in The Quickening, for standing up to them.
Yeah, you can see the wave of clarity wash over him in real time -- Oh, we're in an existential war of genocide, gotcha, let me play nice while I formulate a plan to nuc them.
SPOILER ALERT 53:02 - 55:14 :( you spoiled the show for me
"Just stuff happening." Could you guys sound more bored with this show than you already do? Yikes. Outside of the rare episode that plays directly to their limited preferences, they seem pretty checked out on DS9. Not saying this is the most thrilling of finales -- it's not -- but there's a lot more good stuff in here than the tired "just fine" refrain justifies. Good character development for Odo (his speech on accepting justice is so well written), great intrigue (mix of lies and truth) from Garak, the intense Garak/Worf confrontation and follow-up from the S3 two-parter, and several other nice bits (ex: Quark). So much more here than a run of the mill boring episode where nothing much happens with no lasting consequences. :/
Agreed. I am wondering whether to cancel my patreon. There is no fun in watching TA continually be bored by episodes I really love. DS9 is excellent , but they consistently criticise it. It’s a shame because they seem to have lost interest in so many of the major plot points, and constantly find fault with excellent stories, actors and the genre itself. I enjoy rewatching episodes more without their input.
Calling her a girl is generous.
First contact in a month or so!?! Let's go! Very psyched for that and also happy the premise hasn't been spoiled
You guys are in luck... because Season 5 is even better than Season 4.
And don't even get us started on Season 6
Fun fact: The Bajoran woman in this episode was in the TNG episode "The Royale" from season two.
Oh damn! I knew she was a bit familiar.
Was it the changelings who made Odo solid, or was it the bajoran ladies on DS9? Yeah it's not the most exciting finale, and it didn't quite make my list, but with the klingons on the move, Gowron apparently replaced by a changeling, and Odo being made human, there's enough here for it to still rate fairly high for me. One thing I really liked in this episode was how natural a lot of the workplace chit chat felt. A lot of the starfleet formality drops away and they can just be people in those scenes. With the exception of Garak, the female changeling was actually pretty diplomatic to everyone. That could be an indication that they don't hold the federation in the same contempt as the Cardassians and Romulans, and perhaps aren't precluding a negotiated peace despite their machinations on Earth. It could also just be a courtesy extended to the DS9 crew because they are Odo's friends and colleagues. Likely the latter. Regarding Garak's plan, it would never have worked. As others have said, the only reason it didn't work in The Die is Cast is because the planet had been evacuated. We saw a bajoran hand phaser kill mirror Odo, so changelings certainly aren't invincible. But the romulans and cardassians had a whole fleet in TDiC. The Defiant would likely only get off a few shots before being destroyed. Enough to kill a bunch of changelings, but nowhere near enough to wipe out all life on the planet. Besides which, there were almost certainly changelings off world(like the one who replaced Gowron). If the founders have essentially declared genocide against Cardassians over bombing a deserted planet, imagine the response against the federation. Garak was acting out of desperation, but he really didn't think that one through. I'm really looking forward to S5, and even if the serialized elements aren't your favourite, I hope you guys end up enjoying it as well.
Alex: *looks directly at camera*
....all I saw was that it was TA's 420. Everything is foggy after that.
Arkanis was introduced in TOS.
One of the core characters literally has a life changing event - "nothing much happened.." What?!
The Tzenkethi plotline was actually from The Adversary. Looks like the patron got it mixed up with this episode.
The Tzenkethi in that episode should have been the Klingons or the Bajorans
You have some interesting theories on where the show is headed. I won't spoil anything but I think you will thoroughly enjoy Season 5, Season 6, and Season 7. On this episode -- I think the female changelings line of "You are dead" is pretty cutting -- in that delivery, we see Garak at somewhat a loss for words -- it takes a moment for him to regain his composure and say his "Madam it was lovely to meet you..." which then directly leads to his attempted attack. Garak is a pretty "grey" character his motives and desires are pretty shrouded, and we've seen him be equally ruthless as well as generous. For him to be so taken aback and at a loss for words was quite chilling when I originally watched this episode, and something that always stuck with me.
yeah... its kind of predictable at this point whereas most fans love the last 3 seasons, TA will not because its kind of eveurthing they dont like. Oh well
Basically the milky wy can be treated as a disc because it goes across much more then it goes "up" and "down" When they drew the quadrants the lines go through the black hole at the center of the galaxy dividing the galaxy into four quadrants. The line through Sol (Where earth is) was supposed to be the divider between the Alpha and gamma quadrants. Howver they made an error and Sol is slightly in the alpha quadrant. The federation core starddles thr divider. The Klingons and romulsn are entirely to the "west" of the federation in the beta quadrant, with the romulans being directly west and the klingons being southwest. there is a part of the federation that goes "under" the northernmost partof the K;lingon empire and comes out the other side. We can say "north-south" if you treat the Galaxy overhead. Cardasian Union is southwest of the federation. Actually, some of the "non-official maps" which mostly agree with the offical ones dont have spoilers. so I can link those for anyone interested. Just look at the map, dont read anything written below. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F9ssp4vd9aujz.gif https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Sector_space?file=In-Game_Galaxy_Map_Victory_is_Life.png Official Map from Star Charts, no spoilers https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uyjTiuaVkGE/UQKepl0dv4I/AAAAAAAARtU/IhFCORnTgsI/s1600/star-trek-map-01.jpeg Note the Klingons are probably going (southwest) under the Federation top get to Cardassian territory. Note this map of (local space, i.e., Alpha and Beta Quadrants)from Stellar Cartography has a location seaarch feature, so if you click search you can find the exact location of any planet like Archanis. You can also "zoom in" or go to location search which lists all the significant systems referred to in the show and lets you go to them directly. If you go "back" you can find other maps but I wouldnt recommened them as they show things like the Delta quadrant you dont want to see yet. http://www.startrekmap.com/localspace.html Here are some close ups of Archanis, zoomed out http://www.startrekmap.com/ufpmain.html?cord=7602,5511 As you can see, Archanis is RIGHT on the Federation-Klingong Border http://www.startrekmap.com/ufpmain.html http://www.startrekmap.com/ufpmain.html http://www.startrekmap.com/ufpmain.html http://www.startrekmap.com/ufpmain.html
here is bajor, Cardassia and DS9 Note the two blue quadrilaterals in the lower left hand coner allow you to zoom in or zoom out. This isn't just for the benefit of TA, a lot of fans probably are aware of this but for those who aren't they might find this interesting. I love the map stuff
Archanis has been mentioned, I believe first all the way Back in TOS
The Archanis sector is a federation territory on the border of Klingon space. In non-canon sources it was the flashpoint of the first Federation Klingon war which happened before TOS. The mention of it is kind of a nod confirming the non canon sources to basically be canon as amonsgt the fandom the Archanois sector was long known as a significant location that sparked early Klingon Cardassian conflcit. Thus the "they gave up their claim to that over 100 years ago). Gowron is ordering the Federation to withdraw from that sector basically as an excuse to start up conflict with the Federation. Prior to this after the Way of The Warrior, while the Federation and Klingons are no longer allied they arent at war either and its kind of a difficult situation. Early in this episode we find out the federaton has demanded they Klingons withdraw from the Cardassian territories they have conquered. Most of those were in the breif war when the Cardassian Union was disorganized as a result of the Obsidian Order collapsing and the Underground taking over, But as you may recall, when Gowron agreed to end the fight with the Federation before it developed into a full scale war, the Klingons maintained occupation of the Cardassian territories they took. Since then, the Cardassian government has tried to avoid war but the Klingons are disrespecting them, seizing ships, and threatening to annex more territories, but the Cardassian government hasnt done much as they are afraid of being totally conquered by the Klingons. Dukat started his resistance movement which isnt officially sanctioned by the Cardassian government but no doubt gave the Klingons an excuse to annex more territory (Like, they have launched attacks from this planet so we're taking it.) We don't know the exact reason the Federation made the demand of withdrawl,. but as Worf pointed out to Sisko, many in the Empire felt they have been at peace too long and the Federation could become the next target, so the Federation maybe decided that it was time to stand up to them lest they be seen as weak. Gowron used this an an excuse to make an aggressive demand he knew the federation wouldnt honor as an excuse to start a war. There are factions inside the Empire who don't think war with the Federation is a good idea, and Gowron isn an absolute dictator, so he has to have justifications that will unite the empire under his aggressive leadership. There are many maps of the galaxy including official ones that would be useful perhaps to show you the situation but you dont seem like the type who care about maps plus there are some spoilers in such maps, but you could see where the archanis sector is relative tp the klingons. There was a big Fan Production about the first Klingon war that involved Archnias and they made a great trailer to promote it with actors from the series, but this was a rare case where The Trek People put a stop to that because it was too popular and too professional looking but many consider tht semi-canon. I'll post a link when the time is right. It lead to new rules limiting fan productions as they were getting too good. I forget the exact rules but productions that involved star trek actors playing the actual character they played in the shows were really cracked down on. If you guys want to see the main map site anyway, SOME of the maps like closeups of the Federation core dont have spoilers, but some of the maps reveal locations that havent become relevant yet and you certainlty dont want to see the map of the whole galaxy as it shows the path of Voyager and where some incident thast havent happened yet took place.
Guys, think. Gowron couldn't have been a changeling in Redemeption, the fourth season TNG finale. Starfleet only discovered the wormhole in DS9 episode 1. Ships started going through after and the colony of New Bajor was founded, so the Domninion was aware of people from the Alpha Quadrant coming through in DS9 season 1, but that corresponded with TNG season 6. The Gamma quadrant, like The Delta Quadrant, is really far away from the Alpha Quadrant so there's no reason to think the Dominion was even aware of the Alpha Quadrant powers prior to the discover of the wormhole (in the non canon books, it says they were aware of some of the powers because of long distance probes prior but didnt know about them in detail) Realistically, the earliest time Gowron could have been replaced by a Changeling would have been some point in DS9 season 1/TNG season 6. So your worries are unfounded.
That said, within the show of DS9, there are revelations which do "retcon" thing, i.e., revelations of things happening earlier then when we learn about them, but in terms of the Dominion, nothing prior to the discovery of the wormhole.
I think them keeping his face makes perfect sense. They make him into a humanoid but not a "true humanoid" and the whole thing is like a mark of punishment, fits very well with what we know of the Founders and I prefer it, I think it would be weird to have him look totally different
Yes, the Founders copied Odo's look s he would be more comfortable/see them as like him. We know they can look like regulsr humanoids but dont care for it. However when they interact with humanoids its easiest to assume humanoid form, and that look which for them is more "natural" feeling then going full humanoid is probably how they choose to look when in humanoid form so they are intstantly recognizable to the Vorta/Jem'hadr but they're hairstyle took after Odo who took it from the Bajoran doctr, Mora. We also know the Jem'hadar and Vorta dont actually see them that much as a large part of the point of having the Dominion is so they cn chill and let their slaves control their "dead zone" for them. The alpha quadrant power represent a more advanced threat then they hve probablyt faced in while requiring more of their direct involvement, and they have to appear in humanoid form more often. It does make me wonder about how the Jem'hadar who explained Jem'hadar rarely live long. Since they probably don't face serious threats on a regular basis, this makes me wonder if this is another way of controlling the Jem'hadar. Since we know occassionally they have the ability to think for themselves (I still think "To The Death" was a ruse as everything the Domion does seems to be a ruse of some sort and it would make sense to see how a starfleet crew would fight with the Jem'hadar, in case say the Dominion conquers some Federation planets, is there the posibility of recruiting starfleet to fight with them and other reasons like testing the loyalty of the jem'hadar after Hippocratc Oath (where it seems like it was just one odd clone) to see if that was something to worry about) Anyway back to my point, maybe they dont live too long because they are worried that older jem'hadar with a lot of experience might start questioning things so they "cull" older jem'hadar since they are constantly cloning new ones and the Jem'hadar think it's because they have died in battle
I don‘t think with all the bangers in this season Broken Link is on many Top 10 lists. But „Melting Odo“ will always be memorable.
With Worf coming in due to a ratings drop, it was actually a studio demand that they make the Klingons a threat again in order to have a storyline to explore worf's charcter- this is a rare case where I think studio interference actually worked. Because of that, the showrunners had to rework their plans a bit and delay some plotlines to fulfill the mandate, which they did. In terms of your question as to why there wasn't as much Dominion stuff this season, that is basically the reason. They had to push back some plans to incorporate the new mandated plotline and integrate it with what they already had planned, and I think they did a great job and it was one of the few times a studio mandate actually worked.
Not just pushback but also rewrite. They had a general idea at this point where things were going, so maybe the "Gowron as changeling" thing would have happened anyway but it would have been a shorter arc and maybe resolved more quicky whereas now they had to introduce it earlier and spread it out a bit more then theey were going to. Its tricky to say what they would have done because they had general ideas but I dont think it was like a GOT deal where there was a general outline. At any rate, the Klingon storyline as it happened was not part of their original plans which lead to the Dominion having less of a role this season to deal with the Klingons as a threat- while we knew it was a result of the season three plan that destroyed or severely weakened the Tal'shiar and the Obsidian Order, it worked out in practice very well. The founder in that episode saying the Cardassians and Romulans were no longer a threat, the Klingons and Federation were but not for much longer. It let them take the Cardassian underground and give a plausible reason for them winning, as well as a plausible reason with "Adversary" for the Klingons to be paranoid aka a justification for conquest. It feels like it was all planned out ahead of time but they were very good at keeping track of things and planting seeds they would come back to. So now we interpret what the Founder said to Odo as being that they already had plans to control the Klingons and lead them on a path of conflcit with the Federation. I find it interesting that in the Visitor which is an alternate timeline, in the future the Klingons had taken control of DS9 and weren't allowing any passage through the wormhole, and no one had heard from the Dominion. That indicates the Dominion was originally fine with controlling things from behind the scenes and neutralizing the threat from the Alpha Quadrant. One thing that makes the Dominion different from other adversaries is they are very long term strategists and planners. Given the lifespan (bascally immortal?) of the founders this perspective makes sense. Perhaps the Founders were going to control the wormhole entrance through the Klingons and very gradually weaken the alpha quadrant powers either till the Dominion naturally expanded or they had some other long term plan. Its hard to say because the Dominion doesnt conquer for the sake of conquering exacty, its all about creating a hyge buffer zone for the Founders safety and also about a dislike for humanoids and some sense of instilling "order." So we will see, it could be ironic if say, the Domionion was content with the Klingons and Federation going to war resulting in a lack of focus on the Dominion without an intent to actually conquer the alpha quadrant, but this information they were trying to hide Odo results in a disruption of their intial plans. None of this is spoilers, I'm just speculating with where we are now. Recall the founders were willing to move from their homeworld for the purpose of destroying the Order and the Tal'Shiar. I image they have created multiple "back up" planets that could serve as homeworlds, "terraformed" just in case. Perhaps eventually after the threat from the alpha quadrant is neutralized they plan to move back. But their original homeworld in the Orion nebula had been theirs for a very long time, as Odo along with the other "100" had an instinctual thing to return there. Its possible the link is connetected tp them somehow and they inserted that, but without evidence we should just assume it was always theres Obviously the changelings are very different from humanoids, true "aliens" so we can't assume they bave any specific attatchment to their original homeworld... or much else. All we know is from what we've seen. They clearly value other changelings greatly but have a hatred and fear of humanoids who they see as truly lesser lifeforms, perhaps not unlike we see pests. From their point of view, creatures who live such short lifespans and are confined to one form and who cant "merge" with others of their species may indeed seem like "lower life forms." This view seems to be supported by their dialogue which has great reverence for changelng life but sees humanoids as something like rabid dogs that need to be put down. I believe the "female" Founder when she says this was probably a crueler sentence for Odo then killing him from their pov. It also makes sense for them. They don't "harm him" thus breaking the changeling code but they give him what from their persepctive he deserves... he is loyal to humanoids so they make him a humanoid. It's also noteworthy they take time and there was disagreement. The female Founder who seems to be in a position of relative authority compared to the others, maybe shes older or something, seems to care more for Odo then others. The one Odo killed seemed to really despise him. It seems like the jens founder was assigned to bring him back to the link, and she seems to have some kind of almost motherly concern for him. Who knows, perhaps she was a key voice in the idea of sending out the hundred. It makes sense as a way of exploring, sending them out not knowing who they are then having them return with new expereince and knowledge for the great link. But this happened before the Founders so feared and hated the humanoids, before the Dominon was founded. Which means the 100 were sent out over 10,000 years ago, which is when the Dominion was founded accorded to Weyoun. So maybe she feels more responsbility for Odo and/or more sadnes for failing in her mission. I think the disagreement is interesting because it indicates to us the Founders are not of one absolute mine. There's a lot we still don't know, like how "new" changelings are created and the degree to which the great link is actually individuals or if "individuals" break off. Like maybe "individuals" only exist when they are outside the link. Its cool, because we dont get easy answers and it makes it feel like the Changelings really are "alien" in a fundamental way that can't be communicated in human terms, which for most trek aliens, humanoids are basically like humans but with a very specfic culture. Also, while we know the Founders did this to Odo to make him return for judgement, we don't know exactly HOW they did it. One of you commented "so they could have just done this any time hence the name broken link." Maybe. Or maybe there is more to it that we find out later. Or maybe it remains another mystery of the changelings. I think the point is at this point, all we know is what we've been shown/told, and I don't think we should make any aditional assumptions. From the writers' stabdpoint, its possible they hadnt decided that themselves and left it as an "open thread" they could choose to pursue or not puruse. I wrote out some possibilities of what types of things that could potentially open up, but I deleted them as even if things dont happen it still counts as spoilers here because things that dont/could happen still count. That does make it tricky in terms of pointint out speculation. I guess the basic point is not to make any assumptions that aren't either specifically confirmed or arent logical deductions from what weve seen. What I will say which isnt a specifc spoiler is that the plot as we go on gets very complicated, and keeping track of when, where, and how things happen/happened helps to keep the big picture in mind, which can be tricky. Like how events from Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast are coming back to have a huge effect on what is happening now, and keeping track of that picture and remembering details can be a bit tricky, especially in this show where as we've seen, something from 2 or three season ago can suddenly come up again and be relevant, not just relevant but retcon or recontextualize what came before, like this where we know see that the plan to destroy the Obsidian Order and the Tal'shiar was step 1 of a much more elaborate plan that has played out over seasons. The Dominion is, unlike other Federation adveraries, a group that thinks ahead and thinks long term, so what they do may be more then just what it looks like on the surface. I think this may be the first episode where we really get a sense of just how long term and deep their thinking is, and that our characters may be a few steps behind them. Remember "The Search" where there was a simualtion of how they would react to the Federation joining the Dominion, which undoubtedly affected multiple possible plans of the Founders. Or how they were willing to sacrfice the wormhole, which may be a reason the Dominion didnt just straight up invade, because they realize if they did, they would be cut off from the Alpha Quadrant and need something more complex and sneakier to obtain their objectives. And that they are patient, and are ok with plans that take time to develop. None of that is spoliers, I'm just saying we don't know yet, and we dont know it it becomes important later or not.
The cardasian-Klingon attack did nothing because the founders werent there. They had already left and were giving out fake sensor readings. Garaks'
garak's plan might have worked... unless the founders had defenses they didnt know about... which they probably did.
Sometimes I think Alex thinks too much about what's to come and it gets in his way of his enjoying the show... And his fears so far are almost never vindicated. I get you got a post show wrap to do and the discussion is the best part of the reaction... but wanting the show to be whatever it is that you see in your head in the end will get in the way of enjoying it. Like the DS9 honks (me) with Voyager. Yeah the episode could have been better but thank heavens it didn't suck.
Why would they leave Odo's face that way? Why does the female shapeshifter have an Odo face? To mock him for being a shitty shapeshifter. Remember the changeling posing as Admiral Layton insulting him for his lack of ability? Also, no one had really seen the shapeshifters before Odo blew the lid on them in the Search. So the Odo face identifies to solids "I am a shapeshifter." Also Rene is pretty old at this time and I think it would be too weird because he'd be way older than Sisko or any female love interest based on his character being a solid for only 15-20 years, based on Kira being like 35. They wanted Rene to play Mora, but it would have taken too long to film.
I think Kira is actually suppoed to be in her 20s
Not shown: Garak recommends a dinner at Taco Bell to make sure Odo's first shit is a memorable one. I forgot the ending of this episode until about a minute before it came on, so I sort of got to experience the twist with you. Great setup for next season and of course Rene Auberjonois was fantastic through the whole thing. He really sold the claustrophobia of being forced into a humanoid body, but also the loyalty that kept him on DS9. What if Data had somehow been forced to be human? In a lot of ways, this episode feels like it's taking that next step for Star Trek as a whole. Man, the summer of 1996 was a fantastic juncture for this franchise. Two shows running simultaneously and they both had great stuff going on. We didn't know how good we had it. Thanks for letting us take that journey again.
We have a rare DS9 were Worf's completely reasonable security recommendation is immediately shot down.
I watched all this stuff as it aired week to week and NEVER missed it. This episode reminds me of a very painful time. I enjoyed the episode and thought it was a decent season finale, but after this season when the fall rolled around...the ONLY station in my area that ever ran Star Trek hired a new general manager who despised science fiction. He dropped ANYTHING sci fi related from the programming and despite protest campaigns and onsite picketing he simply would not budge. I was completely in the dark for the next 2 seasons DS9. I was finally able to pick it back up when the small satellite dishes from Dish Network became more practical and affordable, but I had a LOT of catching up to do which was quite difficult back then. Not gonna lie...I was depressed in a significant way for a couple of years.
The Changelings didn't come through the wormhole until after DS9 season 2, so there is ZERO risk of Gowron in TNG being a shapeshifter.
I will sleep better tonight, thank you
Since you were talking about Hans Beimler, fun fact about him, he's actually the grandson of Hans Beimler who fought in the Spanish Civil war and got killed there. (well i figure you probably never heard of him since i don't think he's very famous in the US)
I think there was a comment in a previous episode where they address the appearance of the Founder, when Odo asks if Founders were always shapeshifter - and the implication is perhaps they were once solids in the distant past? Its hard to tell because the question was batted aside. But perhaps their appearance is how they once looked, and its like a 'default' the Changelings instinctively know how to form without much effort (or, alternatively, they used genetic engineering on themselves in the past). So Odo was able to learn how to become like that due to genetic memory, perhaps? And the Founders see Odo is limited by that and hasn't learned to improve upon it, so they choose to appear as he does in order to not alienate him. The Founders, for all their flaws, do care about each other - they just care nothing for everyone else. Seemingly their entire species is bending over backwards for Odo - which makes sense, as he's the first of the younglings they sent out into the galaxy to return to them and they really want him back. Its very much like a weird family.
yeah, they were pretty vague about that. there's non-canon stuff that explores it more and explains that the founders actually have a god who created them and another species, but again thats in a non-canon book. In my head canon I take all the conflcting stuff fro the books and various incarantions as different timelines or dimensions and just use whatever makes the most sense. I LOVE the plot of Star Trek Online, and it was said that was canon unless it contradicted the show, but later treks undid a lot of what was established there... we can talk more about that when we get there. Irregardless, many fans were very interested in the broader "world" of star trek and going back to TOS they would get fan letters asking about details and while the showrunners were intiially reluctant to commit to nigger world stuff they saw it was in such high demand from the fans they started incorportaijng it. What does annoy me is with later treks, there is a common complaint that it ignores canon. As someone who really understandsa the canon, no it DOES NOT, its just people who havent bothered to dive deep and think it does which annoys me as while there are legit criticisms these days with anything there is some contingent of people who like to complain and exagerrate about anything and algorithhsm favor negative stuff over positive. Take the new Star Wars. While I'm not going to argue the original trilogy wasnt better and there were lots of problems with the newer stuff, tjhere's also some pretty ridiculous arguments where culture war bs comes into the way people perceive things, people in general seem to miss what the actual intentions were, and people also forget that Star Wars at its core was aimed at very young people ( I lucked out and dint see it till the remasters in theatres which I saw in seventh and eight grade, probably the ideal time to see that) and people missed that even if it was great, its just not going to be the same as seeing it when you were kids. Good shows like Buffy actually "grow" with the audience but people forgte how much complaining there was with Return of the jedi at the time it came out from people who didn't factor in they has aged since the firt one came out. In general, trying to turn star wars into a franchise was always problematic because the original trilogy told a relativelt simple complete story and you're just going to be kind of redoing that no matter what. Inherently trek was conceived as something that could have a lot of different kind of stories. I particualrly thought the people who said that the show by the Family Guy Dude was more "trek" then actual trek struck me as so stupid. basically that show was just a fan remake of TNG with crude jokes. But TNG was not the be all and end all of Trek as many of those shallowish fans want to make it out to be. Generally i am just not a fan of the mode of "criticism" where people think they are so clever by being snarky and cynical and angry as opposed to trying to see and appreciate what creators are going for, and its a bigger thing I think with the way the internet has treated cultural criticism in general.
If the founders gave Odo a humanoid face, that would naturally lead to the question: "why does he look like Curzon Dax?" since "Facets" in Season 3 where Rene lost the Odo makeup.
That was Curzon Odo, not Curzon Dax
During TNG the bean-counters at Paramount determined that after season 7, the amount of money paid to make the show (production costs, salaries, etc) would exceed the profits. So, in true Ferengi fashion, they decided to end the show with seven seasons. That rule held until Enterprise, which was cancelled early by CBS' anti-scifi CEO.
I think during TNG season 5 there was talk of TNG lasting for 10 seasons.
You mention the new Battlestar Galactica not being completely serialized and still being at least somewhat episodic, and I agree. I also think the original BSG was even more a combination of serialized and episodic for exactly the reason you mention: it was a full 24-episode season.
Nice cliffhanger ending. Overall, decent episode. I agree about letting Odo have Rene's face - it would've made more sense. Also, good scene with Worf and Garak - he gets to take down a non-Klingon for a change. Overall Rating: B-
“Yo Dominion our bro Odo here is sick! How about we put our differences aside and just do him a solid yo?” “As you wish….”
I love this season finale. On its own, it's not mindblowing, but like the rest of this season (aside from The Visitor), it's just very solid and opens up plenty of doors. Just think about it. Odo....suddenly being human. Imagine all the storytelling possibilities moving forward! Having said that, I also want to add to something Alex said, about Star Trek being/should be about exploring places. You're right. DS9 doesn't do much physical exploring. But it certainly explores inward: people, relationships, cultures, beliefs, politics. It's just a very different type of exploration. My two cents :)
And that's why DS9 is top dog. The writing is just superb
And no, the baddies in the prequel Star Wars trilogy are not just a copy of the Empire, but yes in the sequels the 'First Order' basically is, which is one of the reasons it's lame.
As to 'it's boring' talk, I can understand, but for me I'm so invested in the world and characters that I was hooked not only by Odo's situation, but the latest with the Founders, and the Garak subplot that I was always locked in. Not my favorite episode, but good IMO.
Same. Well said!
I recently watched a two hour plus interview with Ira Steven Behr and my respect for the man has gone through the roof. Many of the writers on his staff praised him as the best show runner to work for because he took the heat from Rick Berman and the higher execs at Paramount and stood between them and his writers, encouraging his writers to write without limitations and taking the producers complaints about it on himself. As a writer in my personal creative life, I have made respect for that. Apparently he was brought in on the TNG episode "Sarek" to write the emotional aftermath of the Sarek/Picard mind meld and Berman gave him shit for having Picard mention Spock. Berman didn't want a legacy character reference so the show could stand apart, so Ira kept hounding Berman about DeForest Kelley in the pilot and Mark Lenard in the freaking Sarek episode until Berman threw up his hands and agreed to ONE reference to Spock, then Patrick Stewart refused to do the scene. He talked about "Captain's Holiday" and how he originally wrote it as a story of Picard being offered an admiralcy and Riker bumped up to captain and it was a very serious episode about Picard evaluating why he joined Starfleet. Patrick said he would never do it and wanted the captain to "fuck and fight", this what "Captain's Holiday" became and Ira seemed a little sarcastic and bitter about it. This he quit TNG and then Michael Piller called him up about DS9 and promised the reins of the show after the first two seasons. I will always love Ron Moore, but Ira has become my new favorite.
Thanks for taking the time to share all this background trivia with us!
6 months for attempted genocide LOL. Also.... Odo probably wasn't immediately able to 'hold it' for a toilet... right? Poor Odo lol
Oh… shit.
You have to appreciate that Dax said "Hold on" when the Dominion ships approached instead of saying "Wait a minute...."
Arcanis/Archanis is a callback to 2 throwaway lines from Arena and Day of the Dove.
Sure its not the last of the Archons too?
Love Alex's look at the camera when Aroya she says "And I never eat alone.", and then again later when he says "I live alone." You're cracking me up, dude.
Garak tried to pull a "No U" and end the show early
Characters who have done nothing wrong: - Captain Benjamin Maxwell - Elim Garak
The reason the last attack on the founders with multiple ships failed is because the Founders were never there in the first place. The founders faked the life signs, the entire thing was a setup. In this scenario the Founders were actually on the planet. If Garak succeeded he would have killed many. This is something you could only do in the 90s, now a days everyone has Tik Tok brain and can't retain a a running thought longer than 30 min. Let alone multiple seasons. You guys thought Kira would deliver this episode, 90s TV trusted the audience was smart enough to hang in there for the long game. Now everything is 8 episode long seasons with no real story telling. (this last paragraph is just me ribbing you guys for blaming 90s TV for something you don't like).
Oh yeah that’s right, good call.
Bashir absent-mindedly about to skip rocks off the Great Link *chef's kiss* he's the best to ever do it
Anything less than 100 skips will be nothing less than his true self.
Why doesn't the Federation just claim Klingons are now part of the Federation as their 1051st world and tariff them in the meantime? That's a America/Canada joke.
The changeling life signs were faked in the Die Is Cast 2 parter. They were actually really there this time for my attempt at some light genocide
Damn, double drop? I'll have to watch this 'part 2' later, alas. But its good to see its waiting for me!
I always thought that one of the reasons they didn't just let Rene play Odo without any makeup at the end of this episode is that Odo is like, what, 15 or 20, and Rene is over 50 at this point? And I think Odo might just come off as a lot older than they would like if they did that.
Odo is like Ang, the last air bender. He is 20 and 320 at the same time. Like ang is 13 and 113.
DS9 becomes anti-woke. Odo is no longer gender fluid. ba dum tss
The Solidining.
Double bubble Let's Fucking GO!!!! 😝😝😝🤪🤪🤪😤😤😤😤