UNCUT - To the Death (DS9 S4E23) | Star Trek Journey 416

Easy A. Comfortable A. Weird how A & J seem bored with the Dominion before we've barely found out much about them.

Combs is great as always as was the writing. It's clear by this point that A/J are going to end up being much bigger VOY fans than DS9. They glaze VOY episodes that are so mediocre compared to this. But tbh that did kinda refleft the 90s. People really seemed to love one OR the other but rarely both.

Are you missing something? Hell YES. Consistently !!

Expectations. Are as bad. As spoilers. I wish dipshit commenters would get that through their thick skulls.

Apparently, in the original version of the battle scene the Starfleet characters are going through Jem'Hadar like Elrond & Tauriel go through Orcs in "The Hobbit" movies. To the extent that even Terry Farrell was telling the director it was a bit unbelievable.

People are NOT overblowing Combs... You guys are UNDERBLOWING him! lol. Like they said, "Just give it up".. They just don't get it. We'll just have to let them be blissfully ignorant! 😂

So now that they've seen Broken Link, I really think "To The Death" was an elaborate "work" by the Dominio for multiple purposes.

Weyoun "The Dominion has endured for two thousand years, and will continue to endure long after the Federation has crumbled into dust." Sisko "You might have an easier time selling that if you hadn't just told me that your own projections show the Dominion falling within a year" In regards to the whole Jeffrey Combs situation, I agree he's not some amazing standout performance. There are some performances like James Sloyan as Jetrel and Jarok or Harris Yulin as Marritza that are so powerful they stick with you decades later. Combs isn't that, but I think some are selling him as that mistakenly. Now I do think he's a skilled actor. He brings a lot of little things to a role that add up to give a more complete picture of the character he's playing. Little facial or body acting, or the way he delivers certain lines. He's far and away better than the guy who played Boreth in The Search, who more or less just read the lines. But yes, he's not some god tier actor, just very competent with an attention to detail, and some creativity in his performances. But I think really what most people are trying to express is they just like seeing him show up. It's more a quantity vs extreme quality thing. I suppose it's basically been spoiled that this isn't his last role. He's just one of those actors that gets a lot of work and it's always good to see his name pop up, not for any one of those episodes necessarily, but his work as a whole. In that I agree he's great, but it was never about any one standout performance. Basically, I feel about Combs that way you guys feel about Scott MacDonald, and vice versa. I think Scott is a perfectly good actor, and it's cool to spot him when he shows up, but whether as N'vek or Tosk or Goran'agar, or background Voyager crewmember #47, he never really blew me away as an actor to understand why you guys hyped him up so much. The scene where he talks to Bashir about the founders being like gods to the Jem'hadar was probably his best scene. Brian Thompson is another one of those actors I like seeing show up in different things, but it's not because he's some phenomenal actor or anything. Now someone like Tony Todd, there's quantity AND quality there. Even Suzie Plakson, cool to see when she popped up on TNG, but I like K'elehyr as a character way more than her as an actor. She's fine. We all have people we get hyped for, because frankly we like them, or we like their character, but that doesn't always require some Emmy worthy performance, and that's fine. As for this episode, I definitely like it more than you guys, though I'm glad you acknowledged it's a good ep and just not for you. That's fair. As for performances, Clarence Williams was definitely the best of the lot here. In the mess hall scene you can hear the barely restrained rage in his voice when Sisko makes light of killing Toman'torax. 3 years doesn't sound like a very long time, but Virak'kara told Dax few jem'hadar live to 15, so if we say they live 12 years on average, that would be like humans today serving 20 years together, or 25+ in the 24th century with their lifespans. So he's just killed someone he's served with for a significant chunk of his life, because he defied orders, and Sisko's response is to tell Worf to go to his room. Now I'm not justifying dealing with insubordination the Jem'hadar way(or even "the Maquis way"), but that's what they know. He just killed his friend over the fight, and the other party got a slap on the wrist, and now Sisko acting like Toman'torax's life meant nothing to Omet'iklan. From his POV it's a huge slap in the face, hence the death threat. Now I certainly think both he and Sisko came to have a lot more respect for each other by the end. While the character stuff is great, I also enjoy the world building in this episode. I don't think the Iconian gateway is that important here. It's a neat callback, but this is the first time we've seen the Jem'Hadar more than briefly at their best. We didn't get enough of them in the S2 finale or The Search, and in both cases they were playing their part in a ruse or simulation. In The Abandoned, we have a confused teenager they're trying to deprogram, and in Hippocratic Oath they're rebels. The ones we follow here are fully loyal and at their peak. We also get a much better picture of the power dynamics between the founders, jem'hadar and vorta. All that's great, and there's some decent action sequences as well. So yeah, it's a great episode for me. B+/A-. There's better stuff for sure, but I always enjoy watching it. Also as others have said, the reset button is much more excusable in TOS/TNG/DS9 because there are starbases to repair damage and replace crew. Starfleet could send ships and engineering teams to repair the station. Voyager is cut off from all support. Very different situations.

One of Star Trek's strengths is episodes can be one of so many genres. Or even a combination of more than one. Drama, comedy, action, adventure, romance. I feel lucky that I'm not limited to only enjoy a couple different types.

You guys might as well call it a day. I mean before ds9 started you wanted something serialized with a “plot” with consequences and character beats and now it ain’t your cup of tea. Voyager is gonna give you I guess most of what you want. And vapid nutrek will give you a smorg of it

Such a fantastic episode , excellent performances all around. It has the dreaded “plot” that not only serves the episode, but also the characters and they all get a chance to shine. S tier for me so I know the guys will say I didn’t care.

Tread carefully with the fanbase on Jeffrey Combs, fellas… FWIW, I totally agree with you. He’s fine, but I don’t get the adoration from the fans.

Jeffrey:"Didn't like my Star trek Character performance? Worst thing you've ever seen.... Well my next one'll be better!"

again super confusing as this is episode 24 on german paramount +

Jeffrey Combs is in this Star Trek episode.

why will the station not be damaged next episode? because in between episodes the U.S.S. Leeds, a nebula class star ship came in with supplies, worker bees and Engineers and repaired them. a thing so mundane it doesn't even need to be mentioned. Voyager on the other hand, can't do that. that criticism of Voyager is valid, even if you don't like to hear it.

I’ll put it to you guys in wrestling terms. I loved WWF in the Golden Age and Most of the Attitude era but when I stopped watching there was this new guy Brock Lesner and they called him literally “The Next Big Thing”. I was like fuck that guy don’t tell me who’s big and who isn’t and this guy is dumb and then I stopped watching wresting. So anyway think of Jeffrey Combs as Brock Lesner. Right now we seem like idiots for telling you he’s the next big thing but like 24 years from now you guys are gonna be, like me with Lesner, and say those guys were right.

..."just get rid of the Odo Jeffrey Combs stuff"...😬👎🚫

This is all world building. It's all going to pay off in time. Be patient.

The "just fine" refrain is beginning to feel passive aggressive.

Well, I always loved this episode. Nevertheless, good show as always, guys (even if I don't agree with the take).

I'm quite disappointed in these quite consistent lacklustre reviews of DS9 and Voyager. I've been following you guys since the early days of TNG and i see your enthusiasm declining episode by episode. This is the peak / golden years of Star Trek and there doesn't seem to be much love for even fan favourite episodes or season cliff-hangers.

I have S4 E23 as the quickening. I googled it too just to make sure and it also says the quickening is E23. Not a big deal just wondering why there is a discrepancy.

Back in the 90's if you missed an episode you were screwed. For some reason I didn't catch this one or the previous voyager episode you guys covered, so new watch for me & I enjoyed them both. But you guys didn't LOVE Jeffrey Combs?? Haha! Some hate is coming your way.

I still can't believe you guys can remember old episodes like All Our Yesterdays so easily. I can't even remember the name of the Voyager episode I watched on Saturday.

kinda feel sisko could have gotten through the 1st if he worded things in a way he could understand like after killing second he should criticizing him tell him now they one less warrior and mission chance victory is lowered

I don't remember this episode at all, therefore I am going to assume it is pretty forgettable.

I don't think the episode sucks. That's it. That's my comment.

For TA, Jeffery Combs has the misfortune of being in a number of nerdy things in which his performances are well liked by many. Transformers, Justice League Unlimited, Re-Animator, etc., so I guess Patreons are just excited whenever he shows up.

Another disappointing reaction,one of my favorite episodes because it is so lore heavy.... Another episode you will appreciate more on 2nd or 3rd watch after your finish the whole series. Allot of these episodes/Story Arcs can be assembled into really good movies/mini series. After you finish the series, you can easily go back and assemble them yourself by skipping around. That is what makes DS9 soo good on rewatch. *Warning Spoilers from Episodes ALREADY SEEN" Watch all the mirror universe episode , firangi episode, Dominion Episodes, Klingon Episodes.... TNG had Klingon episodes you can assemble together and watch in 1 shot... However in DS9 they are much more cohesive. They fit together better. You can take all the ferangi ones and enjoy them as 1 long story ARC. It's something TNG couldn't do well and Voyager couldn't either because how they are constantly traveling. Eventually they move soo far that you can't continue a story arc because you are nowhere near the space of that "ENEMY" . Again the mirror universe episodes you've already seen is a good example of this... go back and watch them in 1 shot. See Kira and Bashier travel to mirror universe, Inspire Sisko and Miles(smiley) to rebel, Then see what happens to that rebellion, have our sisko replace him and recruit his wife to the cause. Finally see the results of that wife joining the rebellion and how she helped them take over Terak Nor, and So on... FYI: this is all from episodes we've seen so not a spoiler... Just the lore alone. This is when we find out that the Jem Hadar live short lives, that there are no women, it is confirmed that they are Clones , and told us again how they are addicted to white. We see their command Hierarchy of Founders, Vorta, Jemhadar .So basically Lore wise, it confirmed allot of things hinted at but this episode SPELLS THEM OUTRIGHT!!!

I can't even with these Jeffery Combs comments. They don't have the years and years of Jeffery Combs to make them love him like we do, yet. TA members need to chill out before they start spoiling things.

I am among the Jeffrey Combs fans. I think you are missing something with him, but oh well. And saying his performance is the same as the earlier Vorta... yeah, I dunno about that. I think he's bringing depth or nuances that they didn't with his delivery and mannerisms.

So I like many other folks really appreciate Jeffrey Combs and his performance in this episode. I won't deny that part of that enthusiasm comes from the fact that he's played many characters in the franchise and will play many more (some more beloved than others). But I think he has a difficult role here and accomplishes what the series needs from him well. Keep in mind this is the first we've seen of the Vorta since that trio of episodes that introduced the Dominion (Gem'Hadar+The Search two parter). The writers have had two years to ruminate on the species and decide more fully what they want them to be. Combs is basically portraying the quintessential Vorta here. The harried, put upon middle management of the Dominion. He's the guy the Dominion sends out to be the sagacious, insincerely smiling face offering to make the devil's bargain and give you what you want in exchange for your soul and freedom. The guy holding the carrot while the Gem'Hadar hold the stick. Combs walks this fine line between fake charm and empty flattery when negotiating with Sisko but gives you the right indicators of real motive underneath. He treats his soldiers with this disdain partly that hides his fear that they will turn on him and by extension his desperation to contain this crisis before it threatens the whole Dominion. He also has this disdain for the oaths and rituals the Gem'Hadar rigidly and devoutly follow to the death (title drop!). Like the way he gets exasperated with presenting the White and mutters his way through the words he's no doubt spoken a million times while Metilklan revertly repeats his part back. Weyoun sees the dogmatic behavior for what it is and considers himself superior to it all. But at the same time even while he fears he might fail to stop the rebellion he somehow keeps to his own dogmatic faith in the Dominion and the Founders. He like how he immediately goes from lamenting the vulnerabilities in the Dominion with Sisko to declaring with unwavering certainty the Dominion will survive even if he fails. That scene with Odo highlights that even more. There's genuine reverence there even though Odo is an exile. Odo's feelings might be fairly well established, but Weyoun and the Vorta are not. I thought he captured the kind of reverence his race presumably all feels towards the Founders, his own dogmatic blindspot bred into him by the changelings.

Let us not forget Brian Thompson's most heart-stopping performance! (You know, when Arnold rips out his heart in the original Terminator.)

Next Jeffrey Combs episode, all patrons need to insult the heck out of Combs's performance, maybe their contrarian instincts will override their Combs indifference and they'll decide they love him. lol

Worf finally takes out someone who is not a Klingon. Cool. And nice use of Griffith Park for the location. Overall, I give the episode an A.

By the way, we had another blink and you miss it "sisko checking his pah" motion which he drops increasingly but the guys never pick up

Worf’s digestive system has got to be clean as a whistle… I could definitely see him doing ads for prune juice. “Prune juice… a Warrior’s Drink.”

I remember liking this one back in the day because it was another chance to see Worf in action. I suffered from Worf-block in real time for seven years of TNG. Getting to see him 'Way of the Warrior' it again was fun, and it was his first interaction with the Jem Hadar. (J'em Hadar? Gem Ha-Dar? Jam Hater? They look like Dinosaurs.)

Man, I'll take this Jeffrey Combs performance over David Ogden Stiers's wooden and uninteresting performance in TNG any day.

Combs strikes me as a real Film Nerd fav', the sort of actor who's appeared in various fringe and cult-following movies and shows, and usually does a good job with the roles he's given. Very much a "Hey, It's That Guy!" sort of career for a particular set of fandom.

Jeffrey Combs deserves much praise for his acting in Star Trek, but it's more about quantity and versatility than anything else.

I think people like Combs because he guest stars a lot, and so they retroactively like his performance whenever he shows up as a guest star. It's a vicious cycle of Combs glazing. But I like him because he's the voice of Ratchet in Transformers: Prime.

Ya gotta love these thumbnails. In the video they're like, yeah, episode was fine but the thumbnail looks like they just experienced the holy spirit for the first time 😂

So in summation Defiant is the most badass ship, Jeffrey Combs is the greatest actor and DS9 REALLY begins next episode. I look forward to constantly reminding you for the next three seasons..

You guys are too "must be contrary" about things that have been praised. It is really okay to like things even when other people have said it is good

Brian Thompson was also a Klingon in Generations and an alien in Rules of Acquisition. Do you know who else was a Klingon? JEFFREY M.F. COMBS. Probably.

Love this episode, better than the entirety of Voyager season 2 and it's not even the best of the season. The analogy of not liking Prime Rib is perfect, this is Prime Rib, some people just prefer chicken nuggets.

The convo about Combs is really funny. It's a situation where obviously we can't be specific about why we like Combs which makes the whole thing very amusing.

Its so interesting to me how they don't like the "big story" stuff. I would say seasons 5-7 are peak DS9, but they are also "big story" seasons where the plots we've been building really come to a head and I feel like the time we've taken really amp that up. So we'll see, they may wind up hating that as what for many of us is "the best part" is something they won't care for as the "big story" stuff takes center stage. Going through the Season 5 episodes, I really realized this is when the show hits it peak and pretty much stays there.

i feel like they do need the Odo-Weyoun scene

yeah. they cut a lot of scenes of the battle but apparently for being too graphic

yeah... you guys seem invested in Voyager but not DS9. If you're invested its much better.

Brian Thompson was also the red faced guy from the episode with the female Ferengi and a Klingon in Generations.

no, the gateway was from the TNG episode you guys didnt like where the enteroprise and the romulan ship were infected by the iconian virus

This is one of those episodes that puts me in a difficult position of not being able to say anything. So, A+ Just A+

Haha. That was great.

I think we really need to stop setting expectations for acting performances in ST. Remember that we're watching from the perspective of someone who has watched the show throughout, and that the most notable performances aren't necessarily the first and our opinions are formed over multiple episodes.

The many times I watched this one never felt like a refresher, I can’t even tell you why its funny (looked back at the takes, not as many as usual which hurt it, but while too many are glazing Combs, there were good other takes there.)

It's kind of sad that all the Jeffrey Combs glazing potentially ruins the enjoyment of Combs' performances for Josh & Alex... I wish people would have allowed them to discover Combs' talent on their own terms. I love the guy, but the glazing is way too much. It's better to undersell the stuff you like and then see the surprise, instead of overselling something that can't live up to all the glazing.

Maybe some are focused on Combs to avoid other speculation

What would be the pep talks for our other characters? "My name is Worf. TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE, but surely we won't. Prune juice anyone?" "My name is Benjamin Sisko. I AM THE SISKO."

Forget Jesus everybody, this here is apparently the real JC! But yeah, as someone who had no idea all those Star Trek characters were the same guy until TA hit this season, this reaction and the takes are really funny. I personally think he does a great smiling snake-type character, but I still like Dukat more!

I like this episode, but it is as you said - a refresher episode on the Dominion after ignoring them for a full season. Fun, but not too deep. Still nice to see the Jem'hadar in a more fleshed out manner too - and that they are individuals (within a narrower spectrum).

Seeing your reaction throughout the episode and then your discussion afterward really make me appreciate how your experiences differentiates from others you hate, love, or are just fun. It's cool seeing you understand that while it's in general a good episode (hence why It seemed you were still drawn in the whole time), it is indeed not your cup of tea, ... Early Grey, hot.

Dammit, now I want some prime rib and sweet potatoes! LOL! Nah, I get the analogy perfectly. Good episode, not to your taste except for the really good character bits. I like it, but I like the action stuff here just as much as the dialogue. I have a broad palatte when it comes to Star Trek. Great reaction, guys!

There is a lot to this episode that matters after the fifth watch. But still, I am rarely excited over specific actors, they did their job, this is the hardest part for reactors, almost worse than spoilers, when we first watched, few of us had fellow fans being excited over only one aspect.

Chief reminds us he is the Chief

I'll be honest, I never understood the reverence for Combs either. He's absolutely a good actor, but I've never found him to be S-tier or anything. I'd also agree with the statement that his portrayal of Weyoun here is just "fine". All that said though, I would actually agree that in this episode, he "does for the Vorta, what Shimmerman did for Ferengi or Alaimo for the Cardassians". Both can be true. Like Alaimo/Shimmerman, Combs takes a generic "bad guy" species, and starts carving out some very distinctive characteristics for them. If you look at his performance again, a lot of the words could be delivered in a VERY different way. For example, in the scene where he gives the Jem'Hadar the white, all that's on the page is something along the lines of "Do you swear loyalty to the founders? Then take this white." This could have been delivered seriously in an authoritative and ceremonial way. Instead, he plays it off as a trite annoyance. There's a LOT of this in the episode. Sometimes notes like that are in the script, but often, it is left up to the actor and director's discretion. This is what he's bringing to the role, and to the Vorta overall.

I think the Jeffery Combs thing is just part of the downside of doing reactions like with while listening to fans. I do think Jeffery Combs is pretty amazing but people are hyping him up too much for early episodes when I feel his brilliance is something that takes time to really see. I just hope you guys can give him a fair shake despite fan overhype.

I love the way Vorta operate. It's manipulative diplomacy with a massive physical threat to back it up. It's unique in the star trek universe, and I think compelling. To Alex and Josh' point, it is not a standout episode. I love Vorta, but totally forgot this episode existed until now.

just in case nobody mentioned it in the takes I would like to say Jeffery Coombs is great in this.

Reheated nachos is a perfect metaphor for this episode being like Hypocratic Oath.

My take Worf could have killed all 6 Jem Hadar! Dust off his uniform like Blade.

Both of your reactions to all the Combs takes are 😆😆😆

I’m with you guys, it was fine. Biggest problem for me was they didn’t make me care about the final showdown.

We've finally found the limits of Brian Thompson's power: He can't shit-talk Worf. Ah well. It was a good run. I agree, the setup for the conflict is a lot more interesting than the conflict itself. But we get a lot of great background on the Jem'Hadar. The series refuses to treat them as one-note bad guys and I have a lot of respect for that.

I like this episode, more than the boys! It’s funny I was thinking About Dax’s letters to her mother? It’s weird that it’s taboo for Trills to maintain connections.. to think Dax has kids out there whose last names are Dax? But the simbiant hasn’t seen any of them ever? After a few generations it wouldn’t matter as much some of them would be joined too. But you would think they would want to know?

Let's just get Suzie Plakson on the show as a Vorta and we can all be happy.

I really like how the Dominion is kind of this slave empire where nobody but very few individuals have their own free will completely intact. While they are assholes it brings up to what extent they are culpable for their actions in a way I find perfectly DS9, it's not "The Borg are all innocent victims" or "The Romulans are all evil elves" in the way TNG did it. It's a very good threat that examines freedom of choice.

Let's GOOOOOOOOOO

Combs is great. Looking forward to the apology tour by the time you're done the series!

Now we know why J&A just walked right past Jeffrey Combs' table at the convention. 😅

I believe... it is time... to f*cking go. According to Miles Edward O'Brien.