UNCUT - The Thaw (VOY S2E23) | Star Trek Journey 411

I really really really don't like this episode. Far fetched to think that an alien society would have clowns and a circus like social construct so similar to Earth. Just silly. (and I loathe clowns) .... and of course ... you love it.

Ugh when I see the episode title I always think this is Dragons Teeth and not the clown one🤦‍♂️

I disagree with the whole visual medium thing. Through your entire journey, I've been listening to all of these episodes as pure audio. These episodes work just as well as radio dramas. And episodes like Distant Voices are just as bland when they are audio only, and episodes like this are just as good. I view the visuals of these episodes as an extra layer. The writing is the true core of the episode, but the visuals and the direction help sell it. Now if you want a show where the visuals actually do matter, that's The X-Files. I'm trying to listen along to those as well, but so much of those stories are actually told through visual reveals and visual clues that it's hard to follow if you don't have them. Plus there's surprisingly not that much dialogue most of the time. This makes most of those episodes pretty boring to listen to, outside of just jamming to Mark Snow's amazing score.

This ep is the stuff of nightmares.

Michael McKean will always be Lenny of Lenny & Squiggy from Laverne & Shirley.

These people just wanted to do a little VR gaming while they waited for their planet to thaw out, and they end up being frightened to death by a clown. What a sick joke!! People generally seem to either really love or really hate this episode. I'm not the biggest fan of the whole clown/circus theme, but the biggest issue I have is I just don't find it scary. I did somewhat as a kid, but between knowing how it turns out and being an adult, it just doesn't elicit that feeling from me anymore. The part that used to disturb me most was the the attempted surgery scene. I'm not one of those people that finds clowns scary, just kind of ridiculous. The holodeck scenes in Schisms of Identity Crisis certainly creep me out more. That said the performances are quite good, not just from McKean and the other guest stars, but from Mulgrew, Picardo and Wang as well. We expect Janeway to kick ass, but it's nice to see the Doctor and Harry have something to chew on as well. Neelix not so much. When he said "maybe we should try making him laugh", Janeway looked like she was thinking "I'm going to stop inviting you to these meetings". That's enough to elevate it to a solid B for me. And yeah, Janeway(even a simulation of her) facing down a manifestation of fear at the end was chef's kiss. I do wonder though why Viorsa's body wasn't beamed to sickbay right away though. A heart attack seems like one of the easiest things to revive someone someone from in the 24th century. Finally the comedic timing on "the only thing that could hold Janeway back from being the best captain...." "...is being a woman" was just perfect😄.

Star Trek did the matrix before the matrix and groundhog day before groundhog day and inception before inception

It was a very tos episode it was entertaining mainly for Mckean not sure if anybody else played the clown it would have held up

Seems like they still don't get why the Q continuum needed to be boring to work. It's fine.

I love the Star Trek sandbox. I think it's a good framework. I don't even mind playing just beyond that sandbox. What I don't like is someone taking some sand from the Sandbox, playing with it on the merry-go-round, but still saying they're playing with the sandbox.

You two were watching with a lot of "Past Tense" energy in the first half of the episode. I was preparing for my Patron Take to get thoroughly roasted.

Voyagers move along home… the ending scene was good but the whole episode up until the end scene was an “erase from canon” tho the camerawork was at least decent

"Why the fuck would you want Star Trek to stay in a box?" You absolutely nailed it, Alex. Not every wild story works, but I love when they take risks. You guys are going to love "Strange New Worlds" when you finally get to it.

Not a Fan of the Episode, but the Endscene with Fear and Janeway is absolute amazing.

So Voyager is mostly new for me (I know the broad strokes and saw some episodes). I liked this episode. I guess I don't love it like everyone else.

400K people. The settlement was slightly bigger than Cleveland. I wouldn't see the point of splitting the settlement between multiple locations across a globe if it is a trade hub.

Your thoughts on "Spectacle" once again got me thinking in general about how media is viewed, and has been since the dawn of the theatre, and how I've come to critique works of media since learning about those early Greek plays in University, and my apologies, but it's a long comment. As such, in Aristotle's "Poetics," he describes what he had observed as essential in those initial plays the Greeks would perform, sparking the entire theatrical, dramatic landscape we still have today. He writes that the 6 Essential Principles of effective drama are 1) Plot, 2) Character, 3) Theme, 4) Diction 5) Music and 6) Spectacle, the least of these being spectacle. For me, these principles still apply. If the plot is lacklusture, the production suffers. If the characters are poorly written, incompetent without reason or too flat, then I'm disengaged. Themes - if something is just supposed to be "fun" and not say anything, then it fails, because whether the author wants to say something or not, the production WILL say something, and by just trying to have fun, the deeper thought has been forfeited to audience interpretation, which can be dangerous. If your production does not do a good job of presenting its themes, it can either be viewed as saying the opposite of the intention, or it can be seen as too preachy. Every piece of media SAYS SOMETHING. Either about the author's views, the world at the time it was created or the audience intended to recieve it. "Just have fun" is the lamest, cop-outiest, shallowest arguement for not engaging in media literacy I've ever heard and it pisses me off that mantra has become so mainstream when it is frankly, idiotic. Diction. This is something we're also losing in media of today. HOW something is written is just as important. Unless a dissonance is the point, the language of a work MUST match the plot, characters and themes. The most egregious and obvious example is the current trend of the loss of unique character voices. EVERY character being a quippy, unserious jokester is a FAILURE of Diction. Having one or two characters speaking with that language is one thing, as it makes them stand out among the cast. Having EVERY character speak that way reduces the Themes and Characters of the work, and can affect Plot as well. By making all characters talk in the same quippy manner, it reduces the depth of the human experience to one, frankly hostile, demeening, toxic archetype. People need to exercise restraint in how they write characters to maintain their unique way of viewing, interacting and speaking of the world. Furthermore, if that Diction does not match the world- the plot, characters and themes of that world, it is an immediate roadblock to immersion in the work, thus, it fails. Music. For me, music is important - as a supporting player to the overall work. It should enhance what is already presented. The WORST thing music can do is try and dictate to the audience what they should be feeling. If a work wishes to elicit tears, but has not done enough to highlight the tragedy of the Plot, the Characters or the Themes, with Diction that does not support it, but then tries to use the music to bombastically make up for it - that. Music. Is. FAILING. Music can amp up tension, push the audience over into sadness or give them the catharsis of victory, but ONLY when supported by the rest the piece. Sadly I've had far too many experiences where a product has tried to tell me to be sad just by virtue of vaguely sad sounding music - and since some tragedy in my 20's I'm definitely more of a cryer than I used to be, so when music does this pushy emoting and leaves me pissed off instead of bereft, it's failed. And finally, what started my thoughts on this comment: Spectacle. For me, this also functions as an enhancement principle. I'm not gonna be as enthralled by a special effect, or a monster, or an explosion, if the rest of the principles aren't doing their job. Don't get me wrong, I love me a good space battle, but it's so much more meaningful, impactful and satisfying if it's built on the other 5 principles. Without that, it's shallow, vapid and a waste of my time and someone's money. And that is the criteria I use to critique media, and why I think, even though as a millenia old criteria, Aristotle was onto something. Apologies for the long rant.

I genuinely like this episode. Starting this now, but I hope its well received. I think it's a lot of fun. Crazy, well paced, surprisingly high stakes, and consistent rules. My criticisms of it is just that it didn't push the horror far enough. But it's still pretty darn creepy.

this badassery is a big part of why Captain Janeway was such a formative influence on my tiny baby brain 😂

I've been rushing to the patron takes every week for almost 2 months just because I wanted to leave a take on this episode... AND THEN I MISSED IT?!?!?!? Story of my life... Anyway, I can't wait to watch this one, and I hope you guys loved the ending, especially the fade to black credits with the eerie music right after Janeway and the clown's awesome last exchange! I also hope you liked David Bell's music. IMO this is the first episode he did a great job with.

It's really starting to become a tradition, Josh reminding Alex what the episode Cathexis was about.

I know this is a "me" thing, but Michael McKean seriously rubs me the wrong way in everything he is in. I find this episode to still be really good despite that, which is a testament to its quality.

B for 🦇💩crazy

(takes off prediction hat) well I will never assume I know how the guys will react to a episode again. Fun times.

This is the first Star Trek episode I remember watching, it was terrifying as a kid, but it's a great episode. Janeway and the Doctor both have so great moments - especially the ending

One of Voyager/Trek's finest episodes

You can skip the show Laverne and Shirley others have recommended for watching Micheal McKean, but I do recommend a series of unrelated films he has appeared in with Christopher Guest, starting with This is Spinal Tap, what became known as mockumentaries. I also recommend an earlier film called Used Cars starring Kurt Russell, directed by Bob Zemeckis.

Agree with you guys; definitely heavy TOS vibes, especially 3rd season, right down to the sets and color schemes. Although I was pretty checked out until the Doctor showed up in the "dream". It built up from there. The ending was an S, but overall, it's a B imo.

I think DS9 is more grounded in character, politics, and "reality" and less in technology and tech speak and sci-fihigh concept. DS9 is Moore, VOY is Braga. I don't think Deadlock would work half as well as a DS9 episode, and it's hard to imagine the Voyager crew doing Homefront / Paradise Lost.

I'm not sure anything could have saved Distant Voices because Bashir was explaining everything to us except what Quark stood for... but I do think it's a good overall point.

Michael McKean is not the most famous from "Better Call Saul". Michael McKean is *most* famous for being "Lenny" from "Laverne & Shirley." Ach! I'm watching Target Audience with children. (Or I'm just an old Star Trek fart.)

Fun fact Michael McKean is Married to Annette O’Toole from Smallville.

Imagine if it did end on a scene where Kim was like "damn i really fucked that one up" lmao 😂

“She’s coming.” Alex: *looks directly at the camera*

Loved watching you guys expecting the “Special Guest Star” kiss of death…only to get this banger.

"She's coming!!!!" (Alex stares at the camera). Oh my. A truly delightful fever dream of an episode. Enjoyed every second. I have to agree Josh that visual storytelling and creative directing / camera work can elevate and make the difference between equally solid scripts. A food analogy as I so love to make, take a prime ribeye cut but cooked with minimal salt and a weak sear. It'll still taste half decent because the meat (writing / concepts / ideas) is just so pristine. But give it all the extravagant spices, herbs, cooking techniques and accoutrements (directing and camera pop) and suddenly you have a dish fit for a King. Though I think there's a weighting imbalance between you guys and (most) sci-fi lovers. For us the quality of the prime cut matters much more, but for you, even if the cut is truly sublime, with nothing to spice it up, it tastes bland. I'd say there's a wildcard aspect too, acting chops. Not sure where that'd fit in this analogy. Probably more so on the quality of the meat, hmm. Maybe Darmok would be an example of that? Absolutely top-tier writing and acting, but not much visual uniqueness. Then again I don't particularly like Darmok myself (I don't hate it either) so I'm getting lost in my own analogy lol. Drumhead is another break from this as it's purely focused on writing and acting, but everyone loves it, TA included.

The more I revisit this one, the more I admire Michael McKean's performance. And he's very good in Better Call Saul, if you ever do react to that, Josh.

It cracks me up how much you guys let credits, of all things, affect your appreciation of any given show!

Cool ending.

This is an aside, but why is the ship called 'Voyager' in the show as opposed to 'The Voyager' (aside from season 1 where it was said a few times). I mean the characters call it 'The Enterprise', so why drop the 'The'?

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but the background performers were actually from Cirque de Soleil

Top episode and a perfect ending.

Move Along Home very much was a budget issue. They imagined a huge spectacle but they were disappointed what they had to end up with because of budget.

I would say "tik tok" or "internet brain" is a real thing. This phenomenon has been well backed by research. It's demonstrable how people are often uncomfortable reading anything longer then twitter length takes and will cope by posting "TL;DR" I think you're just wrong in saying that criticism or a criticism is automatically invalid, we will lilely see more and more obvious examples of this phenomenon as the kids whose parents let them be raised by their phones get older. Thats not all of them, but from teachers I've talked to the difference is noticeable.

Didn't like the hologram ending. I wanted the AI to be able to tell Janeway wasn't living that seems like a plot hole. I wanted Tuvok to go in and tank the beheading with Vulcan emotional control.

I can watch this episode blind and still enjoy it a lot. That's my test if something has garbage writing or not, if the dialogue doesn't hold up without all the dumb bells and whistles then it's shit and won't hold up when visual standards change. I used to enjoy content this way as a child, I'd be in my room not allowed in the living room because of bed time, but I could still hear the TV. Phantom Menace fails this test, all visual, no heart and the dialogue is literally painful to listen to.

This is just the Menoskiest of stories, isn't it? I love when Star Trek does macabre psychology horror stuff, and Michael McKean is fantastic as the clown, but a lot of this episode doesn't hit for me. I find it too flatly lit and theater-like, and it pulls me out of the action. This could have benefited a lot from some X-Files shadowy steam basement aesthetic, or something like TNG's Schisms with the weird noises coming out of the darkness. The direction is great, though, and they flat-out nailed the ending, so I can forgive a lot.

Really feel like they could have just injected some lorazepam and solved this ten minutes in. You started to notice the "some kind of" writing tic I see. Have you seen the supercut?

Great episode but rewatching the beginning, they pick up an absurd amount of info from brief scans in mere moments. It's not that they couldn't reconstruct it but it's like they're reading it all on their panels mere minutes after encountering the planet "I am detecting what appears to be a classical neocubist painting from what is likely their third revival era. Sensors indicate traces of discontent with the prevailing post-imperial institution structure." "Have you identified the artist?" "Not yet, there's too much interference in the ionosphere." "Remodulate the sensors"

I am similar to Josh with clowns, mostly indifferent, while not my favorite this is a great episode

Also, LeBron to Philly is EXACTLY the right move.

Love this. It's so very weird.

When it aired I hated it because I hated clowns. But when I learned to appreciate the TOS vibes it grew on me. Even the colors are very 60s.

If anyone ever wants an introduction to Star Trek, make them watch 'The Game', 'Move Along Home' and 'The Thaw', in that order

The actor who plays the clown played a comedic role in the 1970s series, "Laverne and Shirley." He played Lenny. You should check him out. Search YouTube for "Lenny and Squiggy." He was part of an acting duo.

My “ending on the scene” is rewatchability, this is very rewatchable. I love Voyager though.

this is my favorite episode of voyager. That said, they do the thing where we are told something (that Fear wants to die) that isn't shown.

I love this one, Michael McKean gives a great performance, plus who doesn't love seeing this crew tortured? I don't believe Harry Kim's fear is growing old, it's growing old and still being an Ensign.

I always wonder what exactly Harry Kim saw as a child, we get implications but really that sounds messed up, likely a surgeon cutting away dead flesh on a girl because they mention a radiation disaster. Crazy good episode and very TOS-like

Cut scene at the end of Kim describing the horrors he endured. Janeway: "Mr. Kim, we're Starfleet officers. Fucked-up sci-fi PTSD is part of the job."

Could have been a mess - but it’s a great episode. One of Voyagers (maybe Treks) very best closing scene too

As far as the importance of interesting visuals go, I knit as a hobby but am not good at knitting blind. So I know for certain episodes/shows that I might as well just put my project away because my eyes don’t want to leave the screen and others where I am basically just listening to the dialogue/sound effects with eyes on the needles and it’s sadly about as good as actually watching it.

Peak cinema ending.

I completely forgot how good this episode was! Great reaction!

I hate this episode even Michael McKean can't save it for me. Oh and btw to me Michael McKean will always be Lenny from Laverne and Shirley but you guys are probably too young to have seen that show. E tier for both my daughter and I. But we knew you guys would like this one. Always love your reactions.

Some Clowns go from 1 to 10 in terms of Fear.... This clown goes to 11.

The silent camera take from Alex when The Clown said “ohh! She’s coming!” Excellent.

Hoping you either like it or hate it and rag on it. Nothing worse than seeing someone get bored by your favorite.

Best episode to watch before bedtime, right? 🙃

Voyager loves to go wild, swinging for the fences. And occasionally it scores a homerun like this episode.

Love this episode. Enjoy Vegas guys.

Wake up good voyager is here

Not Janeway drops the coldest line in Star Fleet history. Fade to Black.

Total S-Tier episode!! So, for those in the know, my avatar is Jax from The Amazing Digital Circus. (watch it on YouTube for free! It's worth it). So here's something interesting; The Amazing Digital Circus and The Thaw are VERY related. Both were heavily influenced by the book, 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream'. After Watching Digital Circus, and watching this episode again, the similarities make so much sense now that I know they were both influenced by the same source material. Some differences; I don't wanna spoil the book, but the computer a.i. that traps the humans is basically hate incarnate. Caine in Digital Circus is basically Insecurity, and The Clown here is Fear, and they all torture humans in a digital playground for it's entertainment. I think here it's done beautifully! I don't have a fear of clowns per se, but he is just the right blend of playful and menicing that can almost give Pennywise a run for it's money. (almost. Not quite lol)

Oh... fellas... my isominia has given rewards. In the words of Doomed Deadlock Janeway... "Welcome to the bridge..." Aka, enjoy the Landing of the Season 2 Plane of Voyager. 🖖