UNCUT - Hard Time (DS9 S4E19) | Star Trek Journey 409

Top 10 episode imho. S

For the writers actors and director to do what they did in 44 minutes and budget and schedule etc. Nothing short of excellent.

A boy I knew committed suicide some years ago. He needed might have been 21 or so. And his death made suicide finally clicked in my mind. He wasn’t well and a lack of education about mental illness plagues so many people and communities. But you can be so tortured by your inner thoughts that you just want it to end. Because the situation is not temporary. The pills are temporary. When you’ve dealt with mental illness your whole life, there is a part of you that feels like you’ll never be whole, because you may never be. The same patterns come back around and they hit harder than the last. I wished that he not done it, don’t get me wrong. His family was devastated. He had a ton of people that cared about him. His funeral was packed. But as someone who was plagued suicidal thoughts in my youth, his death was like putting a mirror in front of me. And it just makes me hate the “suicide is selfishness” argument. It presents mental illness as something you can just snap out of. We still don’t fully understand the brain. And for many people, it’s not healing they’re offered, it’s coping. And sometimes you just can’t cope anymore.

Pocket Sand!

This is the first time during these reactions that I got tears... "daddy's home, daddy's home..That's right, daddy's home.." man that ruined me

the overlay transitions are so beautiful.

As for Josh being unable to accept the effects shown in the show of living an entire lifetime, or 20 years in prison, as not being nearly changed enough because real people would be practically unrecognizable after that; just remember that that's exactly how the rest of us feel when we don't buy the wacky science in an episode to be believable enough because we know too much about how the science actually works. In both cases, we each just have to accept that there is going to be an element of unrealism in order to get the episode's point across, or we'd have no episode due to the nature of TV. My interpretation for the inner light is the same as Josh's. That the program made it so Picard didn't actually live that life as Picard. He lived it scripted as Camen. Camen was a real person, and they gave Picard his real life experiences and memories. This is different than O'Brien where the prison was meant to play off of his own real interactions with the program. So Picard is essentially role playing someone else's life. It's like watching a movie, or playing a scripted video game where you are so immersed, that you eventually forget that you had a life before the movie. Or a dream that you are convinced is actually real, then you wake up. Are you going to be affected by that, yes. But I think this program was purposefully set up that way in order to actually be an non-invasive as possible. To transfer all of the knowledge and experience to someone, but to still allow them to go on and live their normal life afterward.

Oh boy. Man. This hit me hard and very personal. I have watched this many times but mostly in background, so seeing it again with you guys, woof. This got me bad. Tears and suffering. But reminds me of living and not giving up. Having great personal my own self dealing with these things. And why I love Trek DS9 etc. It actually took me 2 days to watch this with you guys. But very good. You guys are so important to me and I am very sure so important to many who watch along with you. Thank you sooooo much bros! Know, you two have really helped and make a difference in peoples lives. Thank you so much. And I wish I could go to Vegas 60 anniversary to meet you too, just not able to go (money) which is heartbreaking but I hope one day. I haven't been to a ST convention since I was a kid in '94. But again, this episode I can finally see all in again and to have you two guys there with me. Its difficult with these life things but know again, you two make a difference! Luv you guys! Thank you! BTW, I LOVE your guys joking, makes me LOL, love it!

Had a pit in my stomach knowing this episode was coming. This is not a fun ride. But it's a powerful episode. Wrecks me every time. The only way to release shame is to talk about it. That's how we become human again. How humanity is reclaimed.

This one is always a tough watch, especially the brush with suicide at the end. I understand people not wanting to see O'Brien suffer, but I think the idea that him being the most human and relatable as being the reason why he's the focus of these kind of stories makes perfect sense. Also a great episode for Bashir. For the longest time he was like the annoying younger brother to Miles, and though they've advanced past that, their friendship has never really been tested like it was here. O'Brien spat so much venom at Bashir in this episode, and he just took it, and was still there for him. Can't ask for a better friend than that. Definitely S tier

Wasn’t this story supposed to be Sita Jaxa “coming home” after years in a cardassian prison? I thought that I read that somewhere? They wanted to bring her back but they felt it negated her sacrifice in lower decks.

Give me 90s TV schedules over current TV "schedules" any day! Those schedules made so much more sense than anything we get now.

All forehead ridges look the same to me too.

Alex went to Catholic school? That explains... a lot XD

Whoa! Y'all did one of the most INTENSE DS9 EPISODES IN HISTORY IMO! This episode wasn't NO JOKE!

Every time they push Miles he gets WORSE. Stop pushing, leave the guy alone, give him the space he explicitly asks for.

Absolute banger. Dark and depressing but a clear S tier.

O'Brien almost disciplined Molly the Maquis way.

I think one of the reasons why they made the hook they did rather then make it the entire episode and say it was all in his head is because that would have been predictable, we would have known that its not possible that 20 years really went by, we would have known something was going to reset so in my opinion i think its better this way

I heard a story that this episode pitch was taken from that season 1 Voyager episode where Tom Paris had to relive the memory of a murder he was falsely accused of.

I think it's one of the very best episodes in all of Star Trek. Gene would have hated it

Your Mic quality in the last 2 Months is not great. Will it stay that way? And ah yeah, S Tier Episode by the way. ( Almost as good as the inner Light :p )

Once again the characters of Ds9 make this episode possible where it would never work with the Voyagers characters, a fantastic episode and you can see why Colm Meany was the Movie star of the bunch. Search his movie rolls out he's fantastic

*Checks notes....yup.....O'brien must suffer*

The cell mate was built into the program to drive the prisoner to murder. The ultimate plan ws to drive the released prisoner to suicide after release into the real world. In other words, double punishment.

Ah yes... "The Outer Light." BTW, the "warden" of the virtual prison was played by Margot Rose, the same actress who plays Picard's virtual wife in "The Inner Light."

I love The Inner Light, but Hard Time raises the bar waaaaay higher if you're comparing the two.

The head cannon that I've always liked for Inner Light is that the new memories Picard had implanted began to fade quickly and after a week he remembers them almost like you would a dream, fragmented and clearly not part of your daily conscious memories. But as it stands, this is one of those things that, as fans of the shows, we have to just let go of and allow ourselves to enjoy it.

I just realized... the Molly/drawing issues, should have been played out as a "trigger" to Miles. The first time she asked, he could have reacted more fearful to the idea. Then later, a second time she asks and he raises his voice, somewhat. Then a payoff, at the end, she asks a third time and Miles becomes aggressive, yelling, "I told you, I'm not interested in drawing, Echar!" .... would have been a better setup to the end. But this episode is gold. In my top 20 in all Trek.

Margot Rose played Eline in The Next Generation's "The Inner Light" and Rinn in Deep Space Nine's "Hard Time." I looked this up when I recognized the guards voice. I wondered if you'd notice that too. Of course I'm surprised I even caugth that.

At the beginning they say he served 20 years but it was supposed to be 15. At the end he says it was only 2 weeks after he killed echar that they let him go. This tells me that killing Echar is how you end the interactive program. Usually prison is to rehabilitate you. This one is designed to take away your humanity, you only get released after you become a monster and kill your only friend. I also think Echar being at the station is part of the program. Designed to keep you alive so you dont unalive yourself. Cause it was less torture and more get help obrien. One of the best but not last torture Cheif episode. They cover PTSD in this one , which obrien has plenty. Not just from prison but war...

I knew you guys would love it. It's one of the only S tier episodes I hate to rewatch.

Another wonderful episode.

"Kevin of Nine" I see you lmao. Nice name.

Dorn did a great job portraying Worf as not really wanting to play darts or go kayaking, but knowing O'Brien needed the company and feeling that obligation as his friend.

Me when I first watched this episode as a kid: "Wow, 20 years!? That's such a long time! That's longer than I've even lived!" Me watching it now: "20 years ago was what, 2006? Pfft, that was like yesterday!"

The conclusion reveal was in the hook so that "the plot" could get out of the way and let the entire episode be a true character story in ordinary time. Checkmate gotcha? 😆

Also, conspiracy theory time. I think the program was created to end specifically after you kill the cellmate. Otherwise its weird timing that it ends just a week or two after Ichar bites it. Which also implies this species is immensely cruel to their prisoners.

Craig Wasson is a great audiobook narrator. Now I can pretend Ee'char is narrating 11/22/63 next time I listen

Not sure exactly where but there comes a point where this episode apparently got chopped up or edited heavily compared to your viewing. Cause I was keeping pace with you guys just fine in my watch along through a good 25 to thirty something minutes of the episode but suddenly the episode was wildly out of sync somewhere before Chief snaps at his daughter.

Just great from start to finish. As the series goes on we've seen less O'Brien as new characters and plot developments have come along, but I choose to see him as a shooting star - when you see it your eyes light up and in a second it's gone - and then you wait for the next one.

About the inconsistency in episodes... Weeks in which something might significantly impact viewership were skipped, or got a rerun. This would happen during holiday weeks or when some annual event was scheduled - could have been anything from the Academy Awards to March Madness. This was especially true for Voyager, which was meant to be in a consistent time slot on (then-new) UPN.

They released episodes when they were ready to release them. Every series back then did that. They'd run new episodes for a few weeks then you'd get reruns for a couple of weeks until they caught up. Having 26 episodes of any show released consecutively was not a reality.

Between this, The Visitor, and Crossfire, I forgot just how much Season 4 loves torturing its characters emotionally. Everyone must suffer (but especially O'Brien).

This is my second time watching the episode. For some reason it hit WAY harder than the first time. Never before has a piece of media ACTUALLY made a tear fall down my face. Molly running to hug her father at the end despite how angry he got absolutely sends me.

I think 20 years is a staggering long time, however, I can buy it because each day would be mundane and virtually identical. Part of the reason we experience the progression of time accelerating as we get older is because fewer experiences are novel to us. Those memories overlap or "stack" on top of each other. While that weight would absolutely change O'Brien, I think they delved into that much more than with The Inner Light and Picard, more than enough for me to buy it. Then again, I had no trouble accepting that Picard would still be a reserved and stoic Captain even after a lifetime away on a different planet. He's The Picard, after all.

This is a very minor point and I know it was just a joke, but in the UK your social media posts will only get you arrested if you're inciting violence. I.e. "This hotel is housing asylum seekers, let's go burn it down." (Someone actually got sentenced to 38 months for this).

Season 1's dedicated O'Brien ep was Captive Pursuit

I think there was an experiment where someone voluntarily went into isolation for months on end - and she did not handle it well at all. And that was when she chose it, knew how long it would be, had proper living conditions. Isolation is torture, plain and simple - and it changes people who go through it.

At the start Alex was annoyed they revealed the twist in the hook and that we were going to be dealing with the aftermath. I disagree, I don't think if the episode had been mainly set in the prison and then it ends with Chief waking up it would have felt much different from what we've had before, instead this felt like a fresh take.

Shows used to take breaks very regularly - any time there was a major sporting event or holiday or some other important televised event that they expected a large chunk of people to watch/be absent for, all the other shows that would be on at that time would take a break so they didn't 'waste' an episode. US TV stations were way more aggressive about pulling episodes than say Aussie ones (we had major prime time shows in this era doing 40+ episode seasons)

My first DS9 episode was “Paradise”. Not a good introductory episode, where the station barely appears. So you can see why I wrote it off until season 4!

This is the pinnacle of the 'O'brien must suffer' genre.

Trying to look at it as someone who didn't already know the deal with Eechar, he himself looks a bit ominous as he's framed. Like if I were watching for the first time now, I might suspect that Eechar was implanted in him so that even after prison someone would be there to remind him that he was a criminal. Like maybe that was something this species does to its criminals to reinforce the perceived righteousness of their form of justice. As it stands, I do believe a lesser version. I believe they wanted Miles to do what he did in the simulation but it had to be his choice and it was. They wanted him to feel like he deserved the punishment. Two things can be true at once. Miles committed murder (or legally speaking it might be attempted murder since Eechar isn't real but I am not concerned with the legal verdict) and this species stacked the deck in favor of getting him to do it.

This should have been called Ichar Issue.

This episode made me cry once again when watching this reaction. That scene with Miles and Julian, and then Ee'char telling Miles to be well and vanishing... it's incredibly heartbreaking and moving.

The reason DS9 was so controversial is because episodes like this show its thesis - that humans may have evolved culturally, but take an individual, make him suffer enough for long enough, push him too far, and he'll break in the same way a 20th-century or 21st-century man would. In the end, man must still work to overcome all the vices and flaws of humanity, even in a utopian future. It's a direct response to early TNG, where the humans were better because they were just born better. But the Maquis, Paradise Lost, and now Hard Time show that when utopia fails, humans are still human, which actually makes the utopia all the more precious for how it allows people to be the best versions of themselves.

The writers have shown on various occasions that they are educated with the classics of literature. To use them with a twist is a well known technique. This is clearly a take on "The Count of Monte Cristo" by Alexandre Dumas. Like in Hard Time the Abbé Faria saves Edmond Dantes' mind from going insane in solitary confinement with humanity and kindness. Lke here his death marks the end of the hero's imprisonment and accelerates his liberation. The twist is that Dantes didn't kill his cell mate by himself.

It's interesting to speculate if the cell mate was part of the prison or the program. Although t was stated that the form of punishment was specifically designed for the Chief.

Are you already made aware that your new mics sound crappy? Just saying 😁

I didn't want to miss your reaction so I did end up rewatching, but occasionally just muted the episode 😅 Great discussion as always, guys!

Today on O'Brien must suffer... Really enjoy this episode and have to admit that I got a little teary eyed right at the end. Glad to see you enjoyed it, given Alex's apprehension after the opening. It's refreshing take on a characters traumatic experience. Also, I think Alex has found his ComiCon outfit (The Miles Imprisonment Look - week 2-3) - you'd nail it.

The only way to top this on the 'O'Brien Must Suffer' scale would be for the Satanic substitute teacher from X-Files to be on his ass.

I don't think O'Brien being released shortly after killing Echar was a coincidence. It's even mentioned that the punishment for his crime was meant to be 15 years, so I think the simulation was designed to push him into killing his cellmate. However, O'Brien held out for longer than other inmates, so they extended the experience until they "broke" him. Basically, to turn him into a monster to justify their cruel and unusual punishment.

I also think the is superior to the Inner Light. The Inner Light is very good, but E'Char is more real of a character than every character on Kataan combined.

Whispers, Visionary, and this are all bangers but the Shaving Cream monster in The Storyteller wasn't half bad if you think about it.

Keiko is the best, glad Rosalind and Hanae were there or this would not be as good. Not as fun as Whispers or Armageddon game.since I watched this first on DVD 12 years ago and Voyager first 2009 mostly on DVD, this is the first time I am seeing them together in airdate order, always wanted to see how that was, and for both its torture wanting to just keep going with every episode

TNG's Violations is the episode for me. It's not even based on any personal experiences. It's just that "mind r*pe" stuff is just too awful to watch to me. Don't want to see that kind of thing in any show or movie.

For some reason I imagine a really bad version of Ee'char going away, where he tells Miles goodbye and then instantly disappears with a loud, cartoony "POP" sound.

This one has stuck with since it originally aired.

Ok, now that I’ve stopped crying - how about a fluffy episode for a break? What’s the Gamma Quadrant’s version of Risa? Maybe Sisko should invite the gamer aliens back to the station? 🙃

This is how you do believable drama, not like that stinking burning trash pile that is The Bonding. Good reaction except for Alex still being mad about Sisko doing his job possibly hurting Worf's fragile little feelings in the previous episode.

During the post-episode discussion, was Alex..... "questioning the science" regarding the memory implant procedure? 🤨 😁😂

Wow, the channels I was watching these shows on never just kept showing the SAME rerun in the next week? Is that right? I think they did show reruns only from that particular season in that same time slot until new ones came. Is that what you meant? Or Phil meant?

The inner light is a somber celebration of life through the lens of an extinct people. Hard time is a window into the fragility of morality and the human condition under duress.

The background changing is so good as well!!

I wasn't going to have anything to drink this evening, but had to bust out a fine aged ale to pair with the reaction to one of the most hard hitting episodes. Skål!

Well you guys never want me to sleep. Challenge accepted!

I hadn't watched through this in a while, and I can confirm it does hit harder on a rewatch. I see now that this had to be an O'Brien story, because you're right, he is the POV character. He's the everyman. And if he could break this way, so could any of us. That's a big part of why this one gets to me.

Great discussion. Thought you handled the delicate nature of this episode well.

Haven’t rewatched this one in a while. It’s great but damn is it emotionally exhausting.

RHW solo teleplays: In the Hands of the Prophets, Shadowplay, The Wire, Second Skin, and this one.

Died and replaced by future self, arrested and put on trial by cardasians(tooth pulled out), watched clone die, had biomechanical gene disruptor splashed on his arm and went to stage 4 DNA collapse before getting the cure, mental prison sentence for 20 years. O'Brien must suffer

Excited for this one, I genuinely have no idea how the boys will react to this one!