UNCUT - Innocence (VOY S2E22) | Star Trek Journey 408
Comments (90)
The absolute BEST episode in all of Trek! Double S-Tier!!! How could the guys just talk all over it??! Yeah, I'm shittin' ya. Voyager!
I'm pretty much perfectly in like with Josh on this episode. It's the definition of "C for contract filler". Tim Russ is undoubtedly the highlight. Dad mode Tuvok is great. Where I differ is I don't thing the kid actors were bad. Not good, but not bad. Sure the kids were rambunctious and annoying, they're kids. That's different from the performances being bad. I do also take issue with the whole reverse aging thing. It's clearly inspired by Benjamin Button, but that's a story exploring the idea of someone basically starting at the opposite end of life from most people and moving in the opposite direction, and exploring what that means for the characters involved. It really didn't provide any value to this episode. Aging is IIRC a result of genetic damage over time resulting in imperfect cell division. Not only would fully grown adults need to somehow be born with heavily damaged DNA, that damage would have to reverse over time. Just makes no sense, and Trek at least TRIES (from TNG onward at least) to somewhat make sense. Sure you can point to Q, where no attempt is made to explain godlike powers because it's not important. Q is a tool with which to tell stories. If on the other hand you create aspects of entire alien races that make no sense(Ocampa only getting pregnant once being another example), and aren't necessary to tell a story, it just seems like the writers don't care. Saying some things don't make sense so we should accept nothing making sense is way too reductive for me. I'm more than willing to handwave things, but they have to provide value. The reverse aging didn't. Now, to be fair, the vague explanation about them being "created from energy" and returning to it makes it far more plausible. However if they aren't born, how does Tressa have grandkids? Also if they have an urge to return to this moon at the end, what about before they developed space travel? Were they from the moon originally? If so why is it abandoned? The Drayans are a pretty clear example of the writers just not giving a shit.
He got stuck with the worst girl! I think the other girl was a better actor. The girl in Red made Taj look like Hamlet.
Omg 😱 I just realized what is coming next! 😃
One of my favorites for some reason (maybe the twist), I saw it when I was a little kid and I still remember where I was and the feelings I felt watching this episode, definitely stuck with me all these years. Too bad you guys don't like it, one person's trash is another's treasure, I guess!
Not my favorite episode, it's fine but I still like the blooper of Tim Russ/Tuvok suddenly turning around and running from the cave at the end "Man I ain't going in there!"
By the way, the thing Josh mentions at 7 minutes about ignoring the fact that Voyager was almost blown up last week but now looks pristine is what Patreons were referring to in the takes last episode as hitting "The Reset Button."
I'd say that anyone who's tired of Star Trek 'first contact' episodes is probably tired of Star Trek, or well on the way to getting there
I don't feel that's the point of Star Trek, though. Its a piece of it, sure. Maybe a bigger piece in Voyager being that literally any race they come across is first contact. But look at DS9 (my favorite Star Trek show by a very wide margin), and there's very little of those trope-y first contact situations. Personally, I do not like FORMULAS, which is why I dislike TOS the way I do. Maybe people found some sort of cozy comfort in the 60's with formulatic tv, but I just cant. TNG broke the formula by a lot, and DS9 threw it away. Voyager I feel tried to recapture too much of TOS. For my taste.
D.
Hang on we never did find out why the kids all ended up in that cave or why their clothes were in there with no remains. Was there a little foetus wriggling around in the spandex jump suit? If they start off looking elderly, abortions must be a grim scene on that planet.
That body count of the crew didn't include the +1 baby. I suppose technically it's -2 for the dead baby in the fridge, and frozen Harry floating in space, and +2 for the snatched baby and runaway Harry. Shouldn't they have picked up Harry's frozen body and done something respectable with it? It had a communicator on after all.
I like how Tuvok talks about Katras and whether he believes in them while Alex is sitting there wearing his "The Search for Spock" shirt. "But Tuvok, Spock died and came back to life because he passed on his Katra-" Tuvok: "Where's the PROOF?" "These surprisingly well shot security footage clips from the Enterprise Engineering room. And Spock is alive on Romulous." Tuvok l: "We don't KNOW that's because of a Katra. Maybe Spock didn't die. We just don't know." "Yes, we do. It's all in a movie." Tuvok: "Ahh yes, The Search for Spock from 1984, 1hr, 45min. Directed by Spock actor Leonard Nimoy "
Vuh-DEE-Ehns...not VID-eee-Ehns. They have NEVER said vid eee ehns I don't know why you're so attached to that pronunciation.
Tuvok says it that way literally all the time
Oh. Another reason for my E. The Biology is so laughable it actually violates the laws of logic. Did this show even HAVE science consultants or the network said, "nah! Let the audience have 'fun' and not take it seriously!" The science still is not as awful as Threshold but BOY is it close! I mean, For an adult to progressively "age down" into a kid, the body would have to destroy AND absorb GINORMOUS amounts of tissue, bone mass...oh snd lets not forget brain volume. You cant like...ungrow without causing MASSIVE organ failure. I studied biology in college very recently so trust me. This science sucks-ass.
Oh and the gestation for a Drayan? Welp, that's a fucking paradox lol. You're telling me they go from embryo, to fetus in-utero...and develop in there into a FULLY fledged adult, high bone density, size, etc. What? Do they burst out of the person like Freddy did to Jesse in Nightmare on Elm Street 2? (i assume the boys watched it, so not trying to spoil the movie). Its laughable but NOT the enjoyable kind.
Tim Russ does well here. It is nice to get a bit more about his children. Remember, Tuvok is a FAMILY man. Chakotay was alright here.
I don't think there's that much point about the creators complaining about stuff that wasn't true because they weren't paying attention, they don't care. They like it or they don't. I like it! It was a mediocre episode till the end and then the end brought it up an extra level.
Disappointing, but not really surprising.
you can tell alex checked out of this episode because he missed them addressing that the kids were not meant to be alone then complained about it the fact they were 'left alone' . just shows how boring this episode was.
One hour, five minutes means zero interest. Can't blame them. Why waste time on a waste of time episode?
An innocent enough of an episode.
I didn’t like this concept when The Animated series did it, it’s dumb how are these kids born as adults? That being said Tim Russ was the bright spot too bad he wasn’t given a better script
First time watching. I thought it was okay.
Ah the Nylon stocking people
The Rebels base in Star Wars (Ep IV), Yavin, is also a moon.
Yeah kids are usually a red flag
Complaining about first contact stories on Voyager is just rich. Any time they meet someone it's first contact! And by the way, TNG didn't have a series setup premiere with a character that needed to be revisited 2 years later. The recap was justified!
It was 10 months.
The 'children' did have caregivers who didn't survive the crash. That said, when I saw this on first run, while annoyed at some aspects, there were more then a few touching moments along the way. I was much younger then, now I find myself moved by this gentle story about old age, dementia and fear of death. I'm older now and can appreciate it's message so much more clearly. Come back in 25 years and I suspect you guys will as well.
54:55 another Alex L Take because they talked over dialogue.
By the way, the next episode of Voyager is my personal fav even though it has a flaw that would be too common in VOY. Still my fav and pretty sure TA is going to love it.
He defecated through a sunroof!
This episode NEEDS Miles OBrien. OBrien: "Once there was a Dal-Rok!" Child: "Morrok!" OBrien: "Morrok!"
I have a similar amount of interest in this one to Alex. Before today i'd only watched this once before, about 20 years ago, and i'll happily go another 20 before seeing it again lol.
This is one of those episodes that is so boring, I just come here to watch the guys' intro, then immediately skip to the post-episode discussion to see if they had a surprising take. If not (i.e. they agree it's super boring), I then immediately skip to the Patron Takes and finish out the reaction. On to the next one!
Imagine little Alex and Josh, stranded on a planet, with Tuvok... and that makes this episode work!
Since we don't know the lifecycle beyond ending as "children" I don't see how we can say it's bad science. Maybe they have several life stages like insects ( egg ,larva, pupae, InstaReel, adult) and the last stage is this childlike one.
I liked it.
So is this race born as frail 140 year olds snapping hips right and left or…
For all we know they are hatched from eggs, or go through several stages like frogs or insects.
Yea you totally missed a line -- the attendants (who were on the ship that crashed) died in the crash, the first prelate even says they weren't meant to face this time alone. Also the framing for the episode is that Voyager is looking for a mineral to reinforce the warpcore
It's not really a first contact story -- it's not about the race per se, it's about Tuvok's relationship with the kids. The twist certainly elevates it -- I would say B for this. I think you both disliked the kids, and then just checked out 5 minutes in.
weirdly enough i kinda liked this one. I guess Tuvok with kids worked for me
I like Tuvok so this is B for me. Th ekids were not bad . They had to play adults who were aging and forgetting their past--a pretty tough assignment for anyone.
I don't remember much of this episode, and I have to say I quite enjoyed it, especially seeing Tuvok out of his comfort zone with the children at the start. And I totally forgot about the twist at the end. It's also nice to see that some Vulcan's enjoy singing around the camp fire. I wonder if he knows Row Your Boat?
Tuvok singing pulls this up to a C
I think if everyone had fries or pizza watching any Trek would make any episode better
Tim Russ tries very hard to make this work and it shows. Tuvok comes across as a great dad. That said, the best thing about this episode is that you now know you can safely skip through it on a future rewatch of the show.
For real... I constantly forget that this episode even exists. I know I have watched it, but it refuses to enter my long term memory somehow...
I would watch this over and the children shall lead any day and before I watched When the Bough Breaks though I like that one more than most
At least with Liaisons I can imagine that guy succeeding in his mission and getting dicked down by Picard and chuckle to myself and smile.
This episode is like a B-- to me. It's very thin, but there's stuff to like, it's not offensive or bad, and unlike the guys, kids tend to warm my heart rather than make me roll my eyes, so they have to be pretty awful to be a negative to me.
I have to admit, the ending hits me in the feels just a bit. Not a ton, but still. It's a pretty sad concept.
you often make links and comparison between pairs of episodes i wouldn't have thought to do but relating this one to liaisons is spot on. I don't think the kids were that bad, in the history of star trek kid episodes is this near the top? is this better than rascals? i'm not passionate about it enough to defend it regardless. On another note I wish singing was slightly less rare on star trek. Picard singing in allegiance is a classic moment, same with o'brien in the wounded and uhura in conscience of the king, can anyone remind me of other examples?
Uhura in Charlie X
"It's a clip show, who cares?" I care because it's a waste of an episode that could have gone to literally anything new. I'd rather watch one more unique episode of TNG than a clip show.
“You have to remember in the late 80s…”
Ok episode, mostly only interesting for exposition about Tuvok's family/history and the twist ending. At least the child acting is way more believable than the terrible The Bonding.
You know, I have to give Tuvok props for comforting the dying crewman in that way - shows he is paying attention to all the crew dynamics and understood that it would cheer him up in his last moments
Josh making sure there's one Star Trek show that gives Dax a lot of screen time.
I do question why Janeway had survey parties exploring the moons of this planet *before* they'd even met with the....owners of those moons. That's a strange way to write the episode. Surely if Janeway had asked permission ahead of time, the aliens would have said "okay, but not this moon!"
The biggest flaw in the episode is that its one of the ‘if people had just communicated’ episodes, and Tuvok just tells the kids everything
I just realized that this is where one of the Voyager bloopers I've seen comes from.
Alex being Alex. Complaining about the fact he thought wasn’t explained, while not paying attention and missing that exact fact. That’s awesome.
I feel he listens to his own inner monologue more than the show sometimes
The children couldnt die fast enough. ;-) F-. Movin on.
The kids weren't just dropped off on the moon. The "adults" sent them to the moon in escape pods when their shuttle crashed. I think they were supposed to be atended to till the end came.
It's disappointing when people trash the episodes that I love but I understand everyone has different tastes. But I have always loved this one and it's probably one of my top 5 favorite Voyager episodes. This episode changed my life, I have experienced chronic pain for most of my life, but I use the mediation method that Tuvok showed the kids and it really works to help me manage my pain.
I like it. I don't think I'd say top five, but probably would get in top 10
This episode isn't good. But its not the worst. Its tolerable, but I'd never have rewatched it by myself. On the plus side... we got to hear Tim Russ's singing.
Because you hark so much about it, the kids shuttle also crashed and the caretakers died. They normally have staff around to support their elders as well.
Loving Josh's Jadzia shirt in the discussion.
The episode is D+ for me, only redeemed by Tim Russ' entire performance, including, but not exclusively, the campfire scene. I would rather watch this than And the Children Shall Lead, but yes, it is definitely forgettable and not worth seeing again.
Bad moods hurt us all especially when the episode is a c
the fillerest episode, a good breather episode, not bad, not the best either. But works for going into the season finale.
I also have a theory regarding the placement of this episode, being that we came off Deadlock, the Dead Baby episode. So I think they put in a more lighthearted episode that confronts Dying directly seems like a production choice.
First contact situation is only when one alien race is meeting another alien race for the first time in their civilization's history and never met any aliens before. As such this is not the case here, because these people know of other alien cultures. And neither was the Burger King episode, because the race who is meeting aliens for the first time has to be aware what is happening.
yeah, every race Voyager meets is going to be "first contact" for them because they are in the delta quadrant
I think Alex missed the several times they mentioned that the "children" had attendants who were supposed to be with them and take care of them, who all died in the crash. Anyway, since I'm one of those who took issue with the "reverse aging" twist, I'll say again that it's not an all-or-nothing thing with caring about the science making sense. Stuff like "Deadlock" doesn't bother me because the science is all completely made up. But aging is a real thing, and the idea of a species that in old age turns into and acts exactly like human children is pretty ridiculous. If it had been used in a better way, I'd be willing to accept it, but it wasn't. And if the twist is the only point of interest in the episode, then I'm sure as hell going to be unhappy if the twist makes no sense.
Yeah, you're talking about a show-universe where beings can snap their fingers literally and bring the entire crew into the Big Bang. They even say they are "created" not born, so I doubt their existence comes from a biological evolution in the same way as humans. It is likely from their own words they just sort of "appear" and when they die they disappear. Perhaps they are energy beings that take physical form and then "reverse" in age. Nothing more broken here than the rest of star trek. If you can give Q a pass, you have to give other dumb aliens a pass. Let's not forget the floating eyes and mouth from TNG that exploded a mans head.
Yeah but the insanity saying gives us that fantastic moment in Far Cry 3, where Vaas leans over you and says "Do you know the definition of insanity?" before he kicks you off the cliff. Great stuff. That's all I really have to say about this episode. Benjamin Button, woo hoo. Although the ending scene did give us one of Voyager's best bloopers, where Tim Russ yells "I ain't goin' in there!" as he hauls ass away from the cave.
Far Cry 3 is great!
Not nearly as annoying as and the childrennshall lead. Been a long time since I watched this one
Star Trek + children = hard pass. More to the point with this PARTICULAR episode, it's dull and pointless with no redeeming qualities as far as I'm concerned. Bad for Voyager standards, definitely AWFUL by Star Trek standards as a whole? and frankly awful television as a medium. E
The only mildly redeeming part for me is that Tuvok seems like a pretty good dad.
Not the worst
Classic bad voyager never change
This is very much part of a number of early Voyager episodes that felt like early TNG episodes and one wonders why?! They had already refined a lot of that BS away in TNG so why was it coming back in VOY?