UNCUT - Rules of Engagement (DS9 S4E18) | Star Trek Journey 407

Yea… you scan the target before firing. This is like basic redneck gun safety. What’s great about this episode is that is kind of explains why “they are not military.” They are not there to fight the Klingons… (who knows in the future). But Starfleet’s “rule of engagement” at a time of peace say.. SCAN THE TARGET. & Sisco dresses him down for it. It’s great.

You were right Josh it's called a redirect examination if the questioning is done by the same attorney, otherwise it's called a re-cross examination if done by the opposing side.

Makes sense a civilian transport would be cloaked considering they are near the Cardassian border who they are at war with. Odo and Sisko mentioned how no one could figurre out why the ship would have decloaked though they explained it's flight plan would have taken them near there (and of course the attack happened there because the Klingons were setting it up) On a technical note you don't care about, the Klingons' normal border is nowehere near Cardassian space but they did conquer and occupy a bunch of Cardassian territory so I guess it was on the border of occupied territory.

why would the federation at this point have access to Klingon transit records? They're not allies anymore. Even when they were, did they really share data of the transport records of every planet? Josh is right, it's a big galaxy and there's no reason why random people at a bar would know about it. I bet there was a bus accident somewhere in the world this week. Googling, there was one. A school bus on the New York State thruway with one person killed. Now that's just in THIS country. If you went to a bar in Japan, would you expect the bar patrons to be talking about it?

no, the judge was telling the klingon to top doing that, she sustained Sisko's objection, you misunderstood

Technically it wasn't speculation, it was all expert opinion

In the military you NEVER fire at a target you haven't identified

Odo didn't look into it till Sisko ordered him to. It's not really his job, he's station security

Actually, the first time Sisko objects it was sustained. You said "overruled" but it wasnt overruled, his objection to the way the klingon lawyer was reacting was valid.

well, as far as Sisko not being a good attorney, worf wasnt listening to his advice and pretty much let the klingon bait him. A real lawyer would never let his private stuff go into evidence if it wasnt necessary

This might kill the pew-pew fun space show vibe, but with regards to Alex's rant on checking whether it is a civilian target before firing, it was less than six months ago that US forces destroyed an all-girl's school, killing over 150 people, mostly children, because they didn't take a moment to check their target. Sisko is 100% correct that if you are the good guys, even if it means that sometimes you die as a result, you have to ensure during combat you take every step to limit civilian deaths, even if you put soldiers lives at risk as a result. And this is why Star Trek, and art in general, is so great. We get to explore real world scenarios, reflect on them, and improve ourselves and our attitudes through stories.

Odo is a constable. Constable is a police rank. Odo is a police officer.

1. The lawyer was right about Worf. Not in his argumentation and ragebaiting (the "battlefield" of court, "form over fact") but in his thesis: Worf was acting as a Klingon warrior, not a Starfleet officer. 2. I don't think the lawyer knew about the con. Everything he said outside of court seemed honest. Remember, he was being honest to Sisko that he should be afraid of what Worf might say on the stand. I think he was being honest about wanting to defend him inside the empire as well. 3. Just because there's incongruity (and not much of one in this episode) doesn't mean the only explanation is the writers just want Klingons to be the bad guys now. Maybe they were always complicated and your view of them is too simplistic. Maybe there's something going on you don't know about yet. Almost every encounter with the Klingons has involved some kind of duplicity. Probably a greater ratio than with Romulans, and often involving them as well. 4. Sisko seems like a bad advocate because if it weren't actually a setup then his position was actually a losing one. If Worf had actually killed them, and he's honest about his motives at the end of the episode, then he was in genuine trouble either within the Federation or if he were extradited. It does seem unfair to hold an officer accountable for a mistake in choosing tactical advantage over diplomatic/moral caution, when they are under attack and the likelihood of it being a mistake is low, however there are real life parallels, and that's what separates those in command from those following orders. Worf wasn't ordered to fire, he gave the order. The responsibility and the accountability falls on him, even when it's unfair, because that's what it means to be in command. 5. Remember, the situation were life and death but it wasn't an outright war. The Klingons weren't even trying to destroy the Defiant, just distract it while they attacked what the Klingons view as a common threat. Worf spamming quantum torpedoes at a decloaking, shieldless Klingon ship is tactically sound but also pure bloodlust, and not something a Starfleet captain should be doing. Worf isn't a captain though, that's what a lot of his recent interactions with Sisko have been about. He's not there yet, similar to when Data dressed him down in TNG when he failed to adapt immediately to being first officer. All these outward conflicts with his position are meant to reflect his inner conflict between Klingon warrior and Starfleet officer.

I think also it's not strictly changing the Klingons completely but a more prolonged look at them, we just typically see the bigger aspect of Warriors etc. We've seen some examples of other aspects such as the Klingon Scientist in TNG, our half Klingon Engineer and Diplomats but also referencing your favorite Trek movie secretly plotting in "The Undiscovered Country". Maybe even the Duras who act more Romulan in their tactics had a hand haha. Also the case being tougher for Sisko in this instance given that the facts themselves weren't really in dispute.....for all intents and purposes Worf did what he was accused (prior to the plot being revealed) so wasn't really a dispute of the facts of what happened unlike others.

I know you guys subscribe to the “Just because it’s based on something real doesn’t make it something good.” school for thought, but the plot contrivance of a civilian ship showing up right in the middle of a battle is based on a real event from 1988 where the US warship shot down an Iranian passenger jet full of civilians that overflew a naval battle. There’s a lot written on the event and the failure of the ship’s captain to properly identify the target before opening fire and all the human factors and lead to the tragedy. Not a bad jumping off point for a Star Trek script.

Chief O'Brien wore his gold dress uniform when he and Keiko got married in 'Data's Day'.

One thing is for sure. We are one episode closer to Season 5...when DS9 really starts!

I'm with Alex on this one. Plus, the Klingons abandoned the treaty with the Federation so why are we even talking about an extradition? Should have told the Klingons to kick rocks until they decide to come back to the terms of the Khitomer Accords.

I agree with Alex' nitpicking of the combat situation. in a comparable situation in naval warfare in our day and age worf's decision would not have even caused a raised eyebrow. awful but lawful, shit happens, collateral damage. The protection of your own assets always takes top priority.

the klingon Attourney using the "Video games make you violent" argument will never not be funny to me.

I think a good way to express the ship being lost and no one knowing would be like if a Cessna was lost in Russia. A random US navy Captain is really not going to be informed about that, especially if the nation is purposely trying to hide it. Even if the Klingons only had a few earth populated planets, 400 people isn't all that much. And to add the question about civilian having a cloak, some modern day airliners do have military equipment to detect radars. Just think of it as probably a cheaper/older cloak, not the latest's and greatest.

once again we miss morn talking

It’s a good episode, I don’t think Alex understands the what it means to be a Starfleet officer. The Klingons don’t go around broadcasting stuff especially since they are not Allies anymore.

Worf dealt with that hearing the Maquis way.

shame he has none of his ancestor lawyer skill from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

Wait till you see Janeway get bald later in the Seasons because of all the Stress as Captain. When she gets her bald head and full Beard, that's when Voyager really starts!

My one edit would be, when revealing the crash replaced by this fake, Sisko should have said, "lost in a crash would not be an honorable death, wouldn't those people dying in a battle be a more honorable death and wouldn't the Kligon high council use those families to honor those dead and frame the one Klingon Federation officer?" In my head-cannon I belive it was in and must be on the cutting room floor. They assuned viewers would get there but in this case I think using honor in battle, as the reason for the lie, allows Sisko to honor their culture even in this case.

We're going to court! I predict you'll both love this one. It's an A from me.

I think the one time Sisko objects it seems like Alex and Josh interpreted it as overruled but I think the judge was actually siding with him. (I could be wrong)

The Klingons now in DS9 remind me more of the original Klingons in TOS: just nasty bad guys. This episode revisits old territory, in my opinion. I feel like Worf learning the lesson that acting like a Klingon in Starfleet is not always acceptable has been taught (and hopefully) learned by Worf before. C rating from me.

In the US military you are supposed to confirm the target before firing even in battle. Obviously that doesn't always happen but that is what is supposed to happen. We have to imagine starfleet has similar if not even more stringent rules. Worf would have been required to make sure the ship declocking was one of the ones attacking.

That take about Keiko and botany is one of the finniest in months IMHO. There are better Trek court eps, but it's still a solid episode. B+/A-. LeVar really got creative with the direction here. I love the scene where Quark is rambling about all these irrelevant details and right when we're about to see Morn speak it cuts back to Ch'pok. Even if it's a bit predictable, and not sold very well in this particular situation, I do agree with Sisko at the end. Starfleet officers do need to hold themselves to the highest standard and avoid civilian casualties at all costs. Yeah it's a bizarre situation that couldn't reasonably be predicted, so not the best example they could have used, but in principle Sisko is right. If the lecture had come from the average admiral, it would be hypocritical bullshit. And yes, we have seen gold dress uniforms before. It was actually Worf wearing it. Remember the time he complained they looked like dresses, and Riker chewed him out and then told him he looks good in a dress?

Is Chi’pok really defenseless? I understand Worf should not have hit him and it is a clever ruse to prove his case. But if they were in the empire those would be fighting words and you’d expect any able bodied Klingon to be able to throw and/or take a punch. To me it’s another dirty tactic where a Klingon is hiding behind interstellar law so he can cosplay as a victim. (Mirroring the whole gambit, now that I think about it)

Waiting for the next one is killing me.

Prosecutor here. Josh hit the nail on the head. After cross-examination, the lawyer who called the witness gets a chance to talk to them again, and that is in fact called "redirect." There's a lot that's done here that wouldn't fly in a U.S. State Courts, but I will say one thing. They did handle the O'Brien speculation well, because they had him declared an "expert" on combat. With expert witnesses, you are allowed to ask them about their opinion on something that is within their declared field of expertise. So things that may be considered speculation for lay witnesses are not if they're asked to expert witnesses, as long as it is a question that has to do with the field that you declared them an "expert." Now, I'm sure that opposing counsel would still have objected based on speculation, but it's not a guarantee that it would be sustained like it would be for a lay witness. Just some fun facts. I do really like this episode though, and the creative way it was shot.

Just a quick note, when Sisko makes a passionate objection and the useless judge says "Restrain yourself, advocate", I think she's talking to the Klingon.

Siskos take is odd in a combat situation where your enemy is decloaking and attacking you need to stoke fast! 💥 It’s not just the defiant at risk but also the convey.. who are also civilians?

I generally enjoy this episode but it's always felt like it was missing something, not really quite sure what. I'm also not sure that the initial premise or the Odo-provided twist hold up to scrutiny really at all, it definitely is a bit on the contrived side. There's something a bit off in the vibe of the episode too, I know this is kind of a bottle ep but I wonder if it would've helped if this hearing had an audience to react to the goings-on.

Dug up some background info on Ron Canada : Actor Ron Canada discussed his iconic role as the Klingon lawyer Ch'Pok in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (DS9) episode "Rules of Engagement" on podcasts like Trek Untold and in his YouTube interview. (Don't watch them yet, they have possible spoilers). Missing Out on Martok: Canada revealed he was originally almost cast as General Martok (Gowron's second in command in Way of the Warrior). He ultimately lost the role to his close friend and former roommate, J.G. Hertzler. The "Tooth Acting": Canada joked about the acting choices he had to make while wearing the heavy Klingon prosthetic teeth, and how it shaped his delivery. Working with Co-Stars: He praised his on-screen sparring partners, specifically Avery Brooks (Sisko) and Michael Dorn (Worf), during the tense courtroom scenes. LeVar Burton's Direction: Canada highly praised the episode, noting how much he enjoyed filming the courtroom drama under the direction of LeVar Burton.

Worf’s fists are lethal “wheppons.”

The resolution is the weakest part of this episode. My Sons of Mogh. What's worse is how long it's dragged out. It's like the opposite of the ending of Tribunal. Sisco goes on and on walking us through what we were just told. Overacting the whole time. B

DS9 sex scoreboard Morn on a roll The sex score board Jadzia 5 Quark 5 Bashir 4 Sisko 3 Kira 3 Morn 3 +1 new Worf 2 Jake 2 Chief 1 Odo 1 Keiko 1 DETAILS: Well Morn looks like makes another Morn video. It is a bit of a stretch but not really given our assumption rules. It would have been Bashir until Quark remember whom was in pre-bang mode.

I think you guys may have misunderstood the judge's ruling on that first objection. She said something like "Restrain yourself, advocate" - I'm pretty sure she was instructing the KLINGON advocate to restrain himself from his spiel about what it means to be Klingon. She was sustaining Sisko's objection, not overruling it.

no-win scenario, Kobayashi Maru. Basically Worf had no good options in thiis episode and set up for the end conversation with Sisko

Great direction and some nice shots; and I'll only say this once for the entire series: that was just so goddamn boring. I think it's actually the only episode in the entire series run I'd happily never watch again, and I've been through it all 15 times.

I am surprised that no one mentions the core of this episode which is Worf‘s current Identity crisis. Is he a Klingon warrior or a Starfleet officer? If he is both which side is stronger? Does he know himself who he is at the moment? Started by Gowron‘s desicions in Way of the Worrior, discovered in Sons of Mogh, it is here front and center. The Advocate knows this well and builds his whole strategy on it. And Worf runs into his trap right away. Sisko is right: Worf is damned lucky that he didn‘t bring him down on his own.

You guys both make a lot of good points regarding this episode having a lot of good and bad. I feel like I'm halfway between you both about this episode's merits. Bring back the Klingon chef.

Ch'Pok: "Everyone? Not just the soldiers, but the people of the town? Civilians... women... children?" Work: "They're animals! And I slaughtered them like animals"! For a court episode I really enjoy the style in which it delivers the story and the fourth wall breaks. Great episode for me. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Odo is literally a police officer. That's what constable means.

The original Klingons were not pronounced dead, they were listed as surviving the crash through a fake report. Klingons blab about battle victories, usually hyping them up above the truth, not random crash bullshit. Also Odo was investigating the whole time, he was just not finding anything, he reported to Sisko multiple times, trying to find a motive fot the captain, the backgrounds of any of them had a known violent past, grudge against Worf or his family, etc.. Klingons saying they're honorable and being honorable are two very different things. Even in TNG they were willing to accept a cover up to keep the Duras in power while Worf and his father takes the blame. That was in no way honorable. Klingons have always been liars about their honor. Joseph Sisko was right, they are the alien trash of the galaxy.

Someone's got to take the blame, Admiral sister.

The first time I recall Worf in a formal command role was Gambit, where he's acting first officer to Data. He gets a bit if a dressing down there too. But Data also had the goal of teaching Worf how to be a better commanding officer there so the pattern tracks.

"YOU WANT ME ON THAT WALL, YOU NEED ME ON THAT WALL!!!!" Worf calm down, this is not the time to quote the classics.

I used to roll my eyes when the prosecutor spoke of the truth being won but that has validity in this context. Truth is often contingent on meaning and in a tense political stand off, meaning can be won. And the prosecutor did reveal something to Worf even if the circumstances were rigged

I've been excited for this ds9 streak; honestly the end of season 2 of voyager never held much interest for me, but some of my favorite voyager episodes still lie ahead. Still might have to go back and watch deadlock though, considering the high praise you had for it!

Kira was scripted to go on the stand and be the one person supporting Worf's decision. Ron Canada would've cited an incident in Kira's past where a terrorist attack killed innocent people. The fourth wall break was apparently Ira's suggestion, being inspired by a scene from Clockers (1995) in order to make the episode distinct from other trial episodes.

Yep, Sisko's main goal is to get Worf to learn from his mistakes. He really is the best dad. Like a lot of courtroom episodes on a lot of shows, this one stretches a bunch of details to get where it's going, but I don't care. It's all just an excuse to let Ron Moore write both sides of an argument and I'm here for that every time. And it gets us to the fantastic scene where Ron Canada is being as lawyer-smug as possible, doing his best to weasel out of every question, and Avery Brooks is literally circling him waiting for his chance to drop the hammer. Peak Trek = two(ish) people in a room!! (And looking back now, Sisko's dressing-down of Worf at the end was clearly the inspiration for Adama ripping Tyrol a new one in BSG's "Litmus." It's like poetry... they rhyme.)

Is Quark serious?! Two of his Dabo girls are called Chlydia and Midia. that can't be good for business

The Klingons had in fact been changed to be Romulans ever since The Search For Spock. The villains of Star Trek 3 were originally meant to be Romulans and were written that way, and the Bird of Prey was meant to be a Romulan design. That's why the ship had a cloaking device and a bird motif, and why they spoke about honor, which in TOS was strictly a Romulan trait and something TOS Klingons had no interest in. That's why the Romulans have so much Roman iconography and ranks in TOS, whereas the Klingons were supposed to be more representative of the Soviet Union in TOS. They ultimately decided to go with Klingons instead of Romulans for the movie, but the writing was not changed much to reflect that. However, it still became the basis for Klingon culture in TNG and onward. So Klingon culture is heavily based on Romulan culture to begin with, though they de-emphasized those traits in the Romulans after they had been transferred to the Klingons.

Data and Riker and Miles are the only ones Worf has called a friend

The next time they go to Starfleet Academy, I want them to show Nog in law class, with the professor saying: “Now, it may seem odd that you’re all getting a law degree here at the Academy, but you will be surprised how often you will need one out there."

I like the distinction that Starfleet prioritizes civilian safety over their own and have to take that extra precaution. It makes them distinct and helps justify why they get presented as 'our heroes' in these shows IMO.

A very good court episode. Not as good as The Drumhead, but it's not supposed to be anything like that one and I try not to compare good against good. There are some tropes that are getting tired; 1. They are losing until the last minute piece of evidence that invalidates the hearing/trial. 2. The last-scene dressing down by the captain that was supporting you, followed by a "despite all that". We have seen these things before. But despite all that (see what I did?), I really liked it! I always like to see Klingons, like the lawyer, who decide not to become military warriors. I also adored the breaking the fourth wall artistic direction! So, a few nitpicks, but I appreciate the episode trying to do it a little different as well, and in that, I think it succeeded! A-

I agree that the 'twist reveal' feels like something that would have been discovered right away. As to the idea of a civilian ship behaving that way in combat, while it's not likely, I can imagine in Star Trek a ship doing that. Immediately I thought 'we see ships get hijacked in this universe, or taken over by the computer or an alien to do things they normally wouldn't do for X, Y, Z reasons.'

ah yes, the character building of worf. Good stuff. also the crashing of the ship happened a couple weeks earlier, Worf destroying the ship had just happened. and poor alex cant handle Sisko saying mean things to worf. Boohoo. haha. Worf-chan. It's called Character building and Sisko expecting the best from worf. It's truly good stuff.

"But unfortunately, there's no one to rage bait". Yeah.... about that....

This episode always felt like it was close to being a great episode but was just missing out on something but I’m not sure what it is.