UNCUT - Threshold (VOY S2E15) | Star Trek Journey 396

Salamander babies? Salamander babies.

OMG the Barry Manilow tribute to this episode was brilliant.

It's not even that the show breaks the science of Star Trek that's the problem with this episode. The problem is that the drawback to using the technology is solved in the final act anyway! The doctor can reverse the genetic mutation caused by using the warp 10 drive with literally zero drawbacks or side effects, so why not use it? Go straight to Earth, land Voyager in Golden Gate Park, spend a day having a salamander orgy then have the doctor- who would be complely unaffected by the mutation factor- change everyone back. End of series, promotion for Captain Janeway, Tom Paris gets a statue.

Yeah I think Brannon was toting large amounts of blow at this point. I do agree while it’s silly it is in the it’s so bad it’s good territory, it most definitely isn’t boring

Freakin Brandon Braga weird shit this ep is legendary in Star Trek annuals, who else would have the balls to have Paris and Janeway turn into lizards and bang

Somebody send the guys the Playmates mutant Tom Paris figure with Salamander babies

I like the idea that Brannon Braga wanted to explore with this, which is "what if the future evolution of humanity doesn't progress forward in the way that we might think of it, but we actually go backward to something like a lizard?" And yeah, THAT'S possible. However, evolution isn't something that is hard coded into us and predetermined like it's shown here. It's the direct result of whatever environment our species is collectively exposed to over millions of years, determined by the survival of the fittest suited to that environment. Change the environment , change the path. There is no "natural evolutionary path." Brannon Braga is famous for both seemingly being fascinated by evolution, and yet not understanding at all how it works. Then again, you could argue that if warp 10 is infinite speed, maybe it's infinite time as well? Both space and time are actually just spacetime, so you're not going to affect one without affecting the other. Maybe Tom somehow picked a specific timeline where all of humanity had to slowly adapt to an environment where water slowly became a poison, and started going down it at warp speed? Also, if they can cure the salamander thing with a hypospray, then they have a way home. And warp 13 apparently doesn't have this effect of people, nor does other forms of "trans warp." Also, the Kazon have this information now, although they probably don't understand it enough to use it. And what if the Borg ever got this technology? Given how advanced they are, you'd think they have it already? But even if you turn your brain off for this episode and enjoy the ride (which is not why I watch Star Trek. If I wanted that, I'd watch Sharknado or something.) they try to make this a character episode about Tom Paris. That part could have been good, but even the character stuff is done pretty weird. It doesn't really feel like Tom half the time. And that's even while listening to this purely on audio and not even seeing the makeup. It's like this episode is trying really hard to be both ridiculous and serious at the same time, and the execution is pretty bad. The only value of this episode is it being absolutely bonkers. I personally found it boring on a rewatch once you know what's going on.

Fun note about this episode: it won an Emmy for best makeup. I think it was well deserved.

What bothers me about this whole thing is the future in All Good Things clearly showed them going warp 13. Apparently, this threshold doesn't actually work the way that they think it does.

I enjoy the craziness of this one a lot. Everybody keeps saying lizards, but to me it looked much more like some version of salamanders/axolotls that Paris and Janeway turned into and their offspring. Jungle and going into water is much more of a salamander thing than a lizard thing. Their skin had a more soft wet look to it as well.

This episode is a meme. It's stupid. The science makes little to no sense. The makeup is S-tier. I don't completely hate it.

Transwarp is weird in Trek canon. The USS Excelsior had an experimental trans warp drive in ST3 that Scotty sabotages. I guess it was just called that because it was faster than any other warp drive at the time, but couldn't actually hit actual transwarp speeds? We hear from the VOY crew in this episode that nobody has ever achieved warp 10. I'm sure this wont get even more confusing as the series goes on...

Nit pick, Kim informs Chakote that someone was depreasurising shuttle bay 2. Isn't Voyager too small to have more than one shuttle bay?

One other thing I will credit this episode for is introducing the Type-9 Shuttlecraft. Always liked the look of those ones. The old bulky Type-7s from TNG (season 1 mostly) were the minivans of shuttlecraft. The little type-15 shuttlepods are like a Smart Fortwo. The Type-6 is like an F-150 or maybe one of those white utility vans. The type-9 we see here is like a Camaro or something. Small, sporty, fast.

Tom Paris is the second person in history to transwarp. Unless you don’t consider Q a person, I’m pretty sure he can travel at warp 10.

The worst episode in all of star trek

I totally get all the criticism of this episode. Hand waving away a theoretical impossibility by simply finding a new kind of dilithium, none of the starfleet crew seeming to understand "infinitely fast" as a comcept, and not to mention how it breaks the universe of Trek. Also a bonkers grasp of evolution, though I suppose you could argue (aside from the temporary allergy to water and air) that they adapted to their environment. Maybe the lizard man stage was actually super well adapted to life on a starship, and then when they went to the jungle planet, changing the environment, the salamander form made more sense. I dunno, not going to try and think too hard about it. But yeah, as everyone pointed out, they could use this tech to get home and then just cure everyone, so it breaks the show. Also just leaving the salamander babies on the planet is messed up. Still, I love the exploration of Paris' character, and McNeill acts his ass off, or in this case acts his tongue out. Aside from the universe breaking implications of warp 10, the first 35 minutes or so are B+ or even A tier stuff. Neelix, Janeway, The Doctor, Tom and B'Elanna, everyone is great. Also I think the body horror is fantastically disturbing. That look on Tom's face after he pulls his tongue out like a kid who just popped a giant zit, it's too bizarre to not be hilarious. So if 3/4 of the episode is B/A tier stuff, and the last 10 minutes are E tier, where does that leave us? C tier I guess.

Threshold is the most stupid, ridiculous episode of Star Trek, it's such a meme. In my head it's not at all canon but I'm glad it exists lol

I know it’s dumb, but my biggest complaint about their reaction is that they kept calling the creatures “lizards.” They have made it abundantly clear that they don’t care about the science, and they have helped me let go a little bit. I wasn’t as bothered this time around by the bastardized evolution plot line, or even the rapid gestation and resulting shitting on the prime directive. They brought me so far out of my shell that I was able to get all the way through the actual episode, but God damn it, those are salamanders, NOT lizards! It’s like calling a horse a hippopotamus. Jesus.

So do the salamander babies automatically get birthright citizenship on that planet ?

To quote Andrew from the Buffyverse - "I part my threshold!"

Not my favorite but I never hated it. I think there are plenty of worse episodes.

"So I'm going to being going literally infinity meters per second, but don't worry I'll stop after a few seconds, so I won't be far."

Part of the fun of Star Trek is that we get to hang out with a group of hyper-competent people as they fly around the galaxy and go on adventures. This is why it is so jarring when these hyper-competent people start saying things that violate basic 8th grade biology. It is inconsistent, on a fundamental level, with the world of Star Trek and the basic fabric of the characters.

Robbie McNeill said that since this is a panned episode he ran into Brannon Braga at a Star Trek Convention & back stage Brannon was apologizing for this episode. But Robbie said he loved doing this episode, even if most consider it a bad episode. He had great fun doing the Threshold episode. I know this isn't the strongest episode but I enjoyed this episode, it is just so entertaining. I think the winner one year at a "Chicago" Las Vegas Convention (actually in Rosemont) the costume contest were 2 folks dressed as the Salamander looking things with 3 plush stuffed 1 foot long salamander babies that looked very much like the ones in the episode.

I have to say it. Captain Janeway's spirit animal was Tom Paris's lizard.

I hate this episode. I stopped watching Voyager 30 yrs ago based on this episode. I like character. DS9 right now is my jam. This? I dont even have words. MAYBE if they had brought the little lizard babies back, kept them in a swamp environment and Janeway and Tom had treated them like their pets for the next 5yrs MAYBE it would have been better. But this? Good god. I don't understand the "evolving" but they appear to de-evolve. I don't understand the horrific ending-- having them mate and then leaving them? This is Bizarro Season 1 TNG. E. Erase it from canon.

It's safe to say A&J like Voyager a helluva lot more than I do. That said it's still better than most current shows and I've still rewatched it a bunch of times. It's just a distant 4th after DS9, TNG and TOS for me. Threshold had some interesting ideas but the execution was hilariously bad.

TOS warp scale is very different from TNG they changed it

is this the lowest rated star trek episode or are there some even lower ?

I know I'm going to jinx this, but I think you will enjoy the rest of the season. There's one that takes a swing for sure.

When I watched this as a 15 year old kid, for some reason when it ended, my first thought was "Why don't they just still do it with Voyager to get home and just have the Doctor cure everyone". That question about this episode has haunted me for 30 years.

Tom in the episode Parturition: Most common reptiles lay their eggs and never return to protect them. Chakotay and Tuvok: Hmmm… You don’t say…

For so, so many reasons, this episode is the "E" of all "E"'s.

I love how you guys' worst guess on what was going on was a hundred times smarter than any of the reality as written

Ok, so rewatching this episode... Most of it is actually pretty decent. But man the science and that ending is sooooooooooooo dumb! It's a shame because I actually think that Tom's story in this is actually pretty interesting and I really wish it leaned more into that and less into the medical stuff. A longer look into his experience instead of it just being described to us and how it effects him. McNeil is acting his ass off in this and the writing should've let him go deeper into his character. His experience of omnipresence being like a mystical experience is similar to something that happens to another character in Trek somewhere down the line and I think if they handled it in a similar way it would have worked better. Maybe have an ending more like Geordi in Identity Crisis but where you can have him fully break down emotionally and really confront his issues I think it could've been great. Instead as the guys said it comes off as disjointed. That being said, having rewatched it, this is not close to the worst episode in trek as it has been called by some. Instead its mostly uneven with stupid science and a ridiculous ending.

JANEWAY: Can you wake him? DOCTOR: I don't see why not. (In Tom's ear) Wake up, Lieutenant! I love that scene 🤣

“Are you fucking kidding me?” That about sums it up

i regret watching this episode while eating dinner

Hey I'll admit I had fun with this reaction despite still hating the episode. I'll say this episode once you get past it breaking so many rules in this universe that it's just kinda amazing how off the walls this episode is and that no one tried to reign it in. I think this episode has great makeup and acting, but the script really just needed more time and this actually could have been a great episode.

Speaking as a gay man who lived through the tail end of the AIDS crisis and lost people to it, I find Alex’s joke about “full blown AIDS”… fucking hilarious. Somehow adding the authentic 80s “full blown” prefix makes it funny instead of cruel. Haven’t laughed so hard since his twin towers joke in that Harry Kim alt reality episode. Even funnier because he looked like he did have it when he was in bed with the lesions plus he ended the episode wishing he’d used a condom. Please keep it coming… life is like sailing up a sewer in a glass bottomed boat and a chuckle hides the smell for a while.

Warp 10 here contradicts Star Trek TNG where in final episode I believe the future ships went faster than warp 10. Also then ... won't spoil. Some people may say it is just different scale, but that is just reason after someone clueless written the idea into the episode.

Okay, but, how am I supposed to leave a short enough take detailing all the batshit things Threshold does to get read on video, when every damn scene introduces a nonsensical right angle plot point that flies in the face of either human knowledge, wider established Star Trek lore, Voyager specific lore, establiahed writing practices or just common damn sense?!

This episode is so dumb it’s brilliant

Among other things this episode pulls out if its ass is a random ass medical team for a scene. The whole reason they HAVE to use the EMH, and Tom Paris was initially the nurse before the alien pixie waif became the nurse is because Voyager's entire medical staff was dead.

"You may be interested to know, I'm putting you up for a commendation... it was a damn good fuck."

It's so bad it's good... Which reminds me of the movie The Room (2003), considered to be a best worst movie - consider watching that if you haven't yet.

Tierlist of episodes that make you crave pepperoni pizza: 1) Threshold, 2) Devil in the Dark

this is widely considered the worst episode of voyager. it is - at least to my knowledge - the only serialized tv episode of any star trek show that is not considered canon by a majority of fans. I'm writing this ahead of rewatching it (for the first time in 20 years), because so far, my taste seems to have changed.

Wonder what Paris's father would say about his grandchildren?

I'm fairly jealous that the boys here (and anyone else) can just set aside that this breaks so many in-universe and real science concepts. I can't get my brain to stop screaming 'evolution doesn't work like that!' or 'you just explained how warp 10 should work, and in the next scene showed something completely different! I would love to just turn my brain off and enjoy a bonkers show, but I guess I don't have that gene (you know, cause evolution...)

This episode gets a REALLY bad rap in my opinion. Yes, it's bonkers and the end is weird, but there's some great stuff in this episodes. McNeil nails his part. That scene with him and Janeway where he convinces her to let him make the flight is chef's kiss gold. Good stuff with Neelix in the mess hall, the Doctor delivers, as always. I'll watch this episodes over again before a slew of others across the franchise.

It's not that the science doesn't make sense. It's that it doesn't make sense within the episode's own "logic". If warp 10 is a "theoretical impossibility", that means it's like dividing by zero, or like the real-world impossibility of reaching light speed. Solving something like that requires a fundamental breakthrough in our understanding of math or physics, not just finding a slightly better material (in this case, a more stable dilithium crystal). The way they approach the test flight makes no sense. Janeway asks Tom about his flight plan, and he talks about it like it's just going "very fast". When really, the answer should be something like "I'll be everywhere in the universe all at once, so is there any such thing as a flight plan at that point?" And during the test, Kim seems surprised/concerned that Tom has exceeded their sensor range. At infinite velocity? No shit he's out of range. The mutations would be acceptable as just an unpredictable consequence of such a bizarre and unknowable experience as being everywhere. But then the doctor says this is natural human evolution. So apparently human evolution, which is adaptation for optimal survival and prosperity, is that we'll lose the ability to breathe oxygen, lose our opposable thumbs that let us use tools and technology, and lose our powers of language that let us form complex societies, and revert to being salamanders. And then, after 100% curing the total transformation from human to salamander, no one thinks to resume the warp 10 experiments now that the primary danger of it has been cured.

Thank God that’s over…

I like the Episode. It's a Swing and it is a weird one, but i like it for that matter. Also, it has amazing practical effects. B Tier for me. This Episode over most generic, save C Plot where nothing happens, everyday.

One of the top three worst season 2 episodes for me.

This episode isn't just awful because it's stupid. It's awful because it's badly written, bad dialogue, badly shot, badly lit, badly thought through. The only good aspect of this episode is the special effects, that's it.

The next will be better

I really do love the Tom Paris character stuff in this epsiode and Robbie gives an incredible performance. The thing that bugs me with the science stuff is not the big things, but the little - particularly around the dialog. They talk about how Warp 10 would be infinite velocity, and then Harry is confused when the shuttle disappears. How did they expect to be able to keep comms or sensors on the shuttle when it would be gone? The dialogue is quite inconsistent with the way they expect that to be handled.

THE NANNY! Why aren't you guys doing that on this channel?!?! I love Fran! I'd totally watch that!

First off love this episode so much! Cool transportation plot hmmm yeah okay, More Paris backstory yes please, wait what, oh okay body horror sure let’s go, then the story literally just nose dives, then falls off a cliff lol. First off I’m very aware how evolution works and the science is so wrong it’s distracting. And I love sci fi human evolution stories a lot. Also,Chakotay, who’s supposed to be Native American is completely fine with leaving an invasive species on a planet then never coming back. Plus even if it’s awkward why would any parents leave their offspring in an inbred depression. Might at well shoot them before you go. Instead of this dumb twist, replace it with the Geordie identity crisis episode from TNG. The salamander people are looking for ways to get new genes into their gene pool or something but when the salamander babies get there, they already have a family to be part of then Voyager can leave them babies.

I forgot how absurdly funny it is when they're stunned by the phasers and just plop down, LOL. Stupid episode. I loved it.

https://youtu.be/jMq5udcYZSo?is=cY_q3YksLrbqC6lY Just for fun I synced this to your reaction. Worked almost perfectly.

... ... fuck it. I love this wierd ass episode. The episode is so "throw noodles on the wall" crazy but everyone ACTed the hell outta of this dialogue. Talk about committing to the bit. And watching your literal reaction faces. Damn... Salamander Capt. & Tom Babies really puts the ghost candle sex in perspective. Love this, love you fellas,... Lol, between this and Crossfire, I think one of the most unexpected delights of this channel is watching you both empathsize so completely with the characters. Post-script: Tom chooses the Capt. because she in his ego/id mind is the highest ranking female for procreation which does occur when some animals choose to reproduce.

Benefits of watching Star Trek with other people is that an episode I used to be 🤨 when I watched alone became more 🤭😂

I'll worry about how realistic warp 10 is when warp 1 is actually a real thing that exists. This is the wrong show to be watching for realistic science people!

Can we also talk about that STUPID plot point of Tom's enzyme imbalance that went absolutely nowhere? Here me out; I feel is was a remnant of a scrapped idea. Imagine if they discovered Transwarp would kill him, and there was no way around that? They have the tech now, they have the means to get home or anywhere in the universe, but they could never use it because it would kill Tom. I have no proof this was a scrapped idea, but it would have been...better? But the issue is, the actor would sort of have to stay on the show all seven seasons. If he had to leave for any reason, the show's logic would be fucked, because then they could go home now whenever they wanted, so perhaps they didn't wanna commit to that risk? Just a silly thought.

Voyager sex scoreboard Ummmm ok. This scoreboard could get weird but we find ourselves for the first time speechless. SCOREBOARD Paris 3 +1 new Jayneway 2 +1 new Chakotay 1 Neelix 1 Kes 1 Harry 1 Torres 1 DETAILS IDK gross we truly wish we could come up with inappropriate comments but lets be real, we just watched slug Paris and slug Jayneway have offspring so the sex is confirmed

Sometimes you just have to not ask to many questions and enjoy the ride. Fun episode.

I love this fever dream episode.

I appreciated Alex's little dig that Kes is barely in the show anymore.

So, I want to like the episode because I like the character exploration of Tom Paris, and the actor did a good job with this. However, I dislike it for a couple of reasons: 1) The body horror. I hate it, and it makes the episode very uncomfortable to watch. I simply do not want to watch Tom's tongue falling out, and all the other aspects of the transformation that are going on there. This is nightmare fuel, and I don't need these kind of nightmares. 2) I don't need my Star Trek to be accurate all the times when it comes to physics & co., but there is a threshold of things I'm willing to accept. Warp 10 basically means that subspace is folded to infinity, because to be everywhere at once, space-time has to be folded and compressed so much that it's absolutely zero. That would require an infinite amount of energy, and Tom handwaving it away with having found some new energy source is ignoring the core of the problem they're trying to solve. Screw shuttle integrity, the issue is finding and controlling enough (=infinite) energy to compress all of space-time to zero. It's like telling a story about someone being stranded with their car in the desert because they're out of fuel, and then they fix their broken exterior mirror and suddenly can drive again. And it's like no, that was not the problem that prevented you from continuing driving! 3) The lack of consequences of this whole discovery is weird: the doctor can apparently easily revert this weird salamander unvolution, so in theory they have a technology now to get home. Even if it's just a shuttle, you could build them, put people on them, send them home along with a copy of the doctor on board, and they could be un-salamandered after their travel in no time. They could communicate with Starfleet about it, could let them know about the mutation, have doctors prepare for the crew members jumping with shuttles and Warp 10 to earth and then start reversing their mutated DNA back to their original alien DNA. Even if they wouldn't want to risk a human, couldn't they risk sending a copy of the doctor with a message? The writers didn't think this one through at all. The implications of this development are far too big, and the episode doesn't even address it at the end.

Honestly, rewatching this? I think I love this episode. Absolutely batshit insane.

I mean, I'll always state my opinion regardless of what you guys think, which is what you guys do and why people respect you compared to so many reaction channels where they know the audience wants them to just love it. Of course that leads to frustration, especially when i feel like you dont like something because you don get it, but still, its much more interesting to hear genuine reactions then peope who realized their ability to cry on command was marketable. it reminds me of college when I attended a play written by someone I ent to high school with. Afterwards she asked me what I though. "It was good" 'But really what did you think?" "I said. i thought it was good." "No really. Like tell me your honest thoughts, i genuinely want them to hear them." "I really thought it was good. " "No, come on. i really value your feedback. What did you really think and what i did right or wrong" "Well.... It seemed like a lot of the humor was just charcters voicing opinions you know your audience would disagree with, and you ":straight man" just pointing out how they are ludacrus gets easy laughs, but it didnt feel like the satire really hit because the "humor" was just "other people have opinions we dont agree with isnt that funny". It seems a bit lowe effort." "Wow. Seriously... FUCK YOU!" and stormed off. She really wanted to hear my real opinion, but she wanted my real opinion to be that I loved it. My main "beef" is when you crap on something because you miss what they were trying to do as opposed to understanding it and not liking it. Like thinking... "Duet" wasnt good because you didnt laugh once. You didnt actually say that but that sort of thing." nevertheless I always find it interesting, even on voyager which I dont care for, especially as the dynamics of successful reaction channles and how you create that and have your own style and point of view is very compelling. Like Josh, I can get pissed and go on rants and even get annoyed but I stay here because Its honestly inspiring and fascinating and worthwhile entertainment to pay for in a saturated market/

You know, watching this again, this borders on Lovecraftian cosmic horror. Tom touches the infinite and experiences what Man Was Never Meant to Know! He is changed, goes insane, and would have ended up transformed forever but was saved by SCIENCE!!! It's so nanners that is simultaneously bad and great at the same time. Insanity. And it's glorious.

i feel like they could still "do whatever they want" in the TOS sense without making the characters and situation unrealistically capable and inconsistent with whats come before. if you want that why use the star trek template? why not a new sci fi show with different rules? Even then, unless the day to day in universe ie believable, its never going to work the way trek worked.

I dont have a problem with "weird shit". Its more about, does this take seriously the universe thats been established? I can say, ok Voyager is an incredible ship made for long term deep space and has industrial replicators on board and nanite biogels to repair damage but the fact it never needs maintenance or repair and the crew can do anything with no support from starfleet kills the realism and makes this show feel like "silly sci fi" compared to whats come before. Its not "oh the science doesnt make sense" it's "whats going on in Voyager seems so incredible compared to the rest of trek I cant buy into the reality of these characters or there situation", not real world science. Its about what these people can do with no support consistently compared to the limits of everyone else in the universe that makes this feel like magical contrivances can happen and leads to me being not invested in these characters and their world the same way as I am in DS9 or TNG or TOD where it feels like a real place with rules that makes sense. As I keep saying its like new star wars versus old. Sure, the original might has "cheesy" dialogue but you could buy this world, rather then self aware later star wars where every action piece was like "ok heres a set piece" and all the dialogue was "quippy" and not at all the way people would talk even in a fantasy universe. That's the key. Do I buy this universe or has it reverted to goofy "it happens because its sci fi and sci fi isnt serious" which was what the original people behind trek were trying to change. Its like it gives up that essential element in favor of "lets just be able to write whatever we want for any particular day and damned if it makes any sense in light of the world we've build or seems remotely "realsticc" for this universe. Like this crew, partially of Maquis and such, which isnt even the flagship crew is the most incredibly capable crew who invent new science and tech by themselves just because.. it doesnt "feel real" and again, this is in line with Moore's slamming of the show.

This episode is pretty much crap. Yes Robbie does a solid job with what he has, yes Westmore makeup work is great. But that doesn't make a good episode. Its for me like using A Matter of Time (the Max Headroom episode), and saying Rob Legato did some effective planetary sfx, thats good for his department, but it doesn't make the episode good. What kills it for me isn't that its campy or over the top, but that it doesn't work for the show its on. Star Trek is a created universe with rules. You can do odd things, do the shore leave planet from TOS, to its all happening in a illusion in your mind (the like the Cage), let it be the work of a being like Q or Trelene, or hell there's the Holodeck. Hell go to a quantum reality where the rules are different. That still makes sense. Those are all ways to tell a crazed, over the top acid trip episode, and still be set in the world of Star Trek. Instead it does this as if it's in there reality, and there it collapses. Sorry if it doesn't annoy you. But in reality it should. There are plenty of shows, and films where the very premise and rules of the universe encourage the utter crazy. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's the "universe" that it set in. For example, if you were watching Band of Brothers, and get to the battle of the Bulge, and suddenly instead of a tank, you see Hannibal leading 37 war Elephants into the US airborne, it would be seen as utterly ruining a great episode of TV. There are ways to tell crazy, wild and high jinks within the world of Trek, that don't utter betray the world created.

I'm legitimately surprised Alex said "as much as I love DS9 and the dominion wars" I thought it was sort of a stated thing that he didnt like the big plot stuff and for whatever reason was not a fan of the Dominion as a concept, and that was kind of just something that would affect his viewing of an "big plot" episode that involve them that he had kind of admitted.

I don't know what it is about your reactions, but they put me in the mood to be charitable to Voyager. And truly, aside from the LSD trip that is the final five minutes, this episode is much better than I remembered. What a tour de force for Robert Duncan McNeill. He carries this whole episode and has some great character growth to boot. It's enough to make me forget that they just leave all those little salamander children to their fate.

The idea any ship can go warp 10, let alone a little baby shuttle is idiotic in universe. But I also figured you wouldn't care.

"Throw them in the bucket with Giant Spock." Well said.

That music video was the best thing to come out of this episode.

From someone not a big fan of Voyager, I must say, this bonkers episode, I enjoyed. it was way out there, but it is sci-fi, so it does not have to makes scientific sense it is fiction. I do not know if they babies ever come up again, that would be wild if they did. haha. but most likely never again.

Okay so I had a think about how to make the episode 'make sense' (because honestly there's a lot to love about the episode). Instead of 'oh this is natural evolution' (nonsense, evolution is caused by generational exposure to the environment with mutations in offspring either being positive or negative in regards to surviving to make offspring of their own - very simple explanation but I digress) its "Tom was exposed to a virus while in transwarp that originated on their planet that caused his body to mutate to adapt to that environment at an accelerated rate". And instead of the whole "Warp 10 threshold means you're everywhere at once" its "new form of warp drive that breaks dimensions and causes you to be everywhere at once but is obviously so flawed let's not try it again". But who am I kidding? The episode is bonkers and should be respected for trying. E for being nonsense even in the Star Trek Space Magic sense that breaks a lot of the pre-established lore, but S for fun crazy times with surprisingly good acting.

I'd written off Threshold as a 1/10 episode for a pretty long time now because of the whole everything of it, but you know what? I never remember the scene with Paris dying in sickbay thinking about life, "I never thought there was anything wrong with crying", wanting a last kiss ... ... 3/10

Star Trek: Voyager showrunner and writer Brannon Braga has explicitly apologized for the Season 2 episode "Threshold," famously acknowledging that it was a "royal, steaming stinker" and a "terrible episode". This won't be his only apology.

This is it guys. The official worst episode not just of voyager but the entire Star Trek franchise.

It was pretty good until the heavy handed writing in the last scene. And no way they would leave those kids on that planet.

The Voyager reset button hits particularly hard on this one. Not only do they discover trans freaking warp, but they also learn how to deal with the medical side effects. Yet nobody even sugests using it to get home and just curing everyone. Gotta hit that reset!

I feel like this is why there is seemingly such a divide between Voyager and DS9 fans - DS9 centres on the technical, lore-building elements of creating a living fleshed-out galaxy, kind of like a massive D&D campaign, whereas Voyager is more like "lets smoke some crack and see what happens" Been looking forward to this reaction for a long time BTW, and it didn't disappoint :)

Mental episode that's somehow become a cult favourite due to just how far it runs with the ball. If there's anything you can say about this episode, its not boring!

I think star trek needs these far out silly ideas every once in a while it keeps things interesting voyager gets better at these concepty episodes as it goes along but I never disliked this one and when I started reading forums and stuff I got really surprised that this was considered one of the worst episodes ever. it is weird that chakotay decides to leave the salamanders on the planet but I'm not offended by it lol your faces during those moments had me in hysterics so thanks for that If anyone is interested the guy who plays the weasel traitor in engineering is played by Raphael sbarge who would go on to voice act carth onasi in star wars knights of the old republic and then kaiden alenko in the mass effect trilogy

Very much enjoyed watching Alex enter into an extended existential crisis when he saw the Paris-Janeway lizard babies.

Don't worry, those three salamander kids are foreign to that environment. They don't know what's dangerous and what isn't. They'll be eaten in no time.

To address why they didn't use it to try and get home, I think the biggest reason is that there is no guarantee that they even make it, they could all turn into lizards and just fly off to god knows where and stay as lizards. Plus the Doctor is only stuck in the Sick Bay so I don't think he could do everything needed himself, he needed Engineering help.

Well now I know how you reacted to Tom spitting his tounge out. Once again you didnt disapoint.

You were asking if warp 10 would have criticism, I think it should. As they say it is an infinite velocity. If that is true, in order to achieve it you'd need an infinite amount of energy. Unless that new form of dilithium Tom mentions they found at the beginning of the episode doesn't provide that infinite energy, there is an obvious plot hole. And if it really is an infinite energy source they should be able to solve their energy needs (not just for warp but for everything) from now until forever.

When Tom's on the bed and "dying," he starts talking a lot like....Q. I wonder if that's a coincidence, or a result of occupying all points in the universe at once.

You guys should watch the fan video where someone animated parts of this episode in the TAS style! https://youtu.be/jMq5udcYZSo?is=LViOCn5cy0xLvFC8

Voyager jumped the shark with this episode

In terms of Warp barrier and warp scale, TOS had a different scale, and there it was possible to go over warp 10. But those were different numbers all together. For instance, warp 5 in TOS scale was a slower speed than warp 5 in TNG scale. The warp scale was reimagined for 24th century with warp 10 being theoretical limit, infinite velocity. So all the extremely high speeds would sit in between warp 9 and 10. In-universe transition to newer scale was said to have occurred in 2312.

A few episodes in Star Trek TOS did mention travel at or above warp 10: "Journey to Babel": Spock reports that an enemy vessel is traveling at speeds around Warp 10. "That Which Survives": The Enterprise is recorded traveling well over Warp 11. "By Any Other Name": The alien Kelvans force the Enterprise to travel beyond Warp 11 to cross the galactic barrier. "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield": The Enterprise is pushed past Warp 10 to escape a threat.

The song from the fan video was a cute and funny take on a Barry Manilow song from back in the day.

If its any comfort, the all time champion for worst representation of evolution is still "Superman/Doomsday: Hunter Prey" It reveals that Doomsday was made by the scientist Bertron going to the hostile environment of ancient Krypton and ejecting the same recopied baby into the environment till it became the ultimate life form. The next baby was copied from the genetics of the last failed one. First of all, not every life form survives a harsh environment by becoming a monster that can beat Superman to death with his fists. Some learn to hide, some exude bad smells, threatening coloring or camouflage coloring, finding a food source away from the greater dangers, forming a symbiotic relationship with a stronger lifeform, anything. Second, Bertron was subjecting it to a harsh environment but had completely removed the selection pressure. The baby didn't have to survive long enough to grow up and reproduce, it just had to leave enough organic remains for Bertron to clone it again. So any unhelpful mutations wouldn't have been weeded out by failure to survive. They would actually accumulate and the baby would probably end up even less viable over time.

Even though this is a fun episode, these are erase from canon events and implications. I hold this whole franchise at such a high standard and am not willing to accept this as a part of the in-universe lore. But that's just my opinion.

Not surprised you guys liked this nonsense. I totally disagree, but respect your opinion. Stay weird, guys.

I bet if Tom had evolved in a beautiful and Q like omnipotent being people would have loved it. The lizard „perspective“ for humanity was just too disturbing for most.

My take on seeing this episode for the first time: WTF?!? I have no idea how I feel about this one.

And yeah, leaving the kids behind is a wild mess. One, they should be as human as Tom and Janeway, so why not restore them as human children? Two, as Alex said, what about the prime directive and leaving this invasive species on another planet? And three, if they're still anything like human children now... wouldn't they likely just die without their mother?? So bizarre.

I also highly suggest everyone check out SFDebris' breakdown of this episode and why he considers it one of the worst STAR TREK episodes ever. Look at breaking the warp speed limit. Its a THEORETICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. Finding a new type of dilithium or trilithium or whatever it was, cannot overcome what is IMPOSSIBLE by theory and mathematics. It's like, to bring it back to real life: the speed of light isn't something that could EVER EVER be broken under any means (aside from cheats such as warp or wormholes, because you are always still locally traveling below the speed of light). I wont go into the math of a Lorentz Factor but suffice to say, it's dividing be zero. It would make as much sense going slower than stop, or traveling more north of the north pole. It's meaningless. The hand-waving of the IMPOSSIBLE in this episode is actually offensive. At least to me.

Why did the Trek writers struggle so much with the concept of evolution? I mean... I'm by no means an expert, but my goodness do they love to go bonkers with it.

This is sort of the anti-Way of the Warrior in the sense that I've been eagerly waiting to see you react to this for the exact opposite reason. Obviously, you're well aware by now the abysmal score for this episode is people bouncing off the ridiculous scifi. I think in a way, this did a service for the audience in asking them to let go of the idea that Star Trek was going to take the science seriously and just enjoy the crazy ride. I compare it to Mass Effect 2 which is where I started with the series. The first Mass Effect has hard well-thought scifi by video game standards. Its diamond hard by video game standards. But my intro to the series was Shepard falling to a planet from space and being rebuilt over two years. That set my expectations for what the series was going to be and it helped me enjoy Mass Effect 2 and 3 a lot better than if I'd started with 1. The real objection is what this establishes and how it hurts all plots going forward. We can do infinite speed now. Have you thought about trying to travel at a finite speed that is still really really high? Because we have this thing we're trying to do that is basically the main goal of the entire series. But the one that doesn't get talked about as much, its not the infinite speed in a show that is all about traveling a really long distance, its not the mangling of evolution. Its the EMH being able to turn two hyper-evolved salamanders back into humans OFF SCREEN. Remember this the next time there's anything at all on any Star Trek show that involves medicine. The EMH basically performed a god-like medical procedure here. Though too be fair, Unnatural Selection already established that you can basically reset a person using the transporter to CTRL Z and the only reason it was even hard to do in that episode is because Pulaski doesn't like using the transporter so they didn't have an autosave for her body.

For me this episode was so out there and memorable I bought the Tom Paris 'Mutant' action figure

I am ready to go Warp 10!

People criticize this episode for its science, then call what is clearly a scaleless, slimy salamander-like creature a "lizard"! Robert McNeill has said that because of how often he was asked about Threshold at conventions, it's the only Voyager episode whose title he remembers.

So Brannon Bragga admitted in the special features that this episode did not turn out like he thought in his mind. But his initial idea was that people tend to look as evolution as always improving, where-as, it's really just adapting. So he thought it would be interesting to show, what might happen, if humanity did not receive the appropriate struggle to continue to evolve forward... i.e. life becomes too easy, and the body no longer requires high intellect etc..

Whatever your thoughts are on this episode, Robbie McNeil is a beast of an actor. He's so versatile, and just gels with almost anyone. On his podcast, he said he learned the most about acting from his brutal 4 years of soap opera acting. He said it was absolutely brutal because they'd give him 30 pages of dialogue a night to learn, and actors that took more than 2 takes would get written off the show. So you had to be good to stick around given the pace.

This isn’t a great episode but I can imagine worse

They have gone past Warp 10 in TNG and TOS(although they later claim TNG and TOS used different warp scales to explain it). They sort of ignore that for this.

Screw it im on break so ill comment now. This episode blows. Now, I KNOW i am always all about "so bad its good". Aside from considering Sub Rosa and Masks as A+'s, I adore awful horror such as Las Vegas Bloodbath, Death Bed: The Bed That Eats, New Years Evil, among many others. Threshold just DID NOT do it for me, aside from, yes, Tom's makeup was great! I can give it that. Aside from all the usual issues people have such as bad science and a nonsensical plot (which would be fine in "so bad its good", in THIS case....I dunno, I felt they tried too hard, as if they MADE it to be "so bad it's good", and when that happens such as Sharknado or The Room, or Thankskilling...it doesn't work. For me, something has to be unintentionally bad for "so bad its good." And aside from that, the humor or lack thereof just didn't do anything for me. E. (if I enjoy it tonight when I watch the reaction, while on substances, I will upgrade it to a D-)

They put bro in a Warp Iron Lung lol. Never remembered that.

“Here lies Tom Paris, beloved mutant”

Josh predicted the head thing hahaha, get him in the writers room! Elite prediction

Be there soon

First comment bros, pre reaction. You guys are gonna love this I feel.

Josh at 1:00 "Episode 15 let's be good please." 😭😭😭 Its so bad its good.

Aannnd Im at work. AGAIN! lmao. Welp, I'll be watching in 6 hours 😭