UNCUT - Paradise Lost (DS9 S4E12) | Star Trek Journey 392

About not doing "Part 1" & "Part 2" for multi episode shows/movies. I remember discussing "The Fellowship of the Ring" with my parents who were very annoyed that the movie did not have a self-contained ending because they did realize the trilogy was one story. Your preferred conventions do not always work for people.

uhhhhhhhhhh Well not gonna say anything for spoilers

A from me for both parts of this. I love Robert Foxworth who often plays a baddie in films, my favourite with him is Damien: Omen 2, a fantastic film, and his character is my favourite as one of the devil's desciples protecting Damien.

I wish this was a more modern show because then we could have gotten a season long story of Nog undercover two minutes a week in this evil fraternity or society uncovering whatever and eventually tying back into the main cast. That's how Game Of Thrones worked, anyway. Still, they are trying, and its a good complete story, it just needed more ambitious writing, a bigger budget, and to be written 15 years later. I wish these shows did more of this and less of 30 minutes where next to nothing happens.

A changeling plot on earth yeah nah it was just another Badmiral

I'd forgotten that the changeling in Part 2 confirmed what I had commented about in Part 1: In "Heart of Stone", the female shapeshifter took full phaser fire and there wasn't a mark on her.

One of the inherent weaknesses of ALL part twos, that will always exist, is that by their nature the mystery elements have to be revealed and the the episode needs to collapse around what is actually going on, and has to funnel towards a resolution rather than exploration. Part ones can dance around all the possibilities and delicious 'what ifs'. Which is why I rate multi part episodes as singular units, it just isn't fair otherwise. Past Tense is awful, Redemption is ok, Maqui is neat, this one is pretty sweet, The Circle is actually goated.

This was a great Sisko acting episode. The admiral also did a very good job. The plot was a realistic depiction of what could easily happen and a good twist so I thought it was better than having the changelings be causing the havoc.

I watch all my reaction content on eBaum's World.

BUDGET. Yes each season sets in advanced a budget. And you better damn not go over that end number by the end of the season. That's normally people getting fired. Now in some special circumstances a production will have to approach the studio and beg for extra funding (it sometimes works but nor usually). But it had better be damn important, or something utterly outside the control of the production. For example during the episode when the studio sent people home due to an earthquake, the show didn't have to cover extra cost of an extra day of production costs. That was outside the control of the production. And while the studio gave extra money to film Way of the Warrior (5 times normal pattern and approval for an extra day of filming), production still went over that increase. In fact at this point in time, almost every single episode of the season had gone over pattern. Thus putting them in the firing line of knowing that if they didn't start managing weekly expenses better, the remainder of the season was going consist of a vast amount of bottle episodes (primarily no new sets, limited guest stars, no new props or visual fx, limited overtime, ect). DS9 might have a budget at this time in the 2 million range. Fixed costs are how much the studio spends on each episode for things that aren't expenses geared to a specific episode. This is the cost of rental space, standard work of the normal crew, the costs of the producers, writers, directors, and the cost of the cast. Fixed cost at this time would probably be near 1.75 million of that 2 million dollar budget. The last quarter million would be the actual production budget. The cost needed to make that specific episode. IE guest actors, extras, new sets, new designs, new props, new makeup, larger crews for departmental issues that an episode might require, new special visual effects, new costumes, an anytime overtime is used, for crews, cast, guests, anyone. This is called Pattern. Pattern is the budget producers can change week to week, go cheap on one episode so you can go big on another. If you have gone over pattern for a lot of episodes you know you have to go cheap on a lot of episodes. At this point in the season I believe it was stated that all but two episodes had gone over pattern. And two of them by a lot. Way of the Warrior was even more expensive than what Paramount gave them extra, per reports Paramount gave 5 times pattern for those episode, producers went nearly 7. And the other spectacularly expensive episode was Our Man Bashir. By shooting 9 days, it incurred huge overtime rates for every crew person and some of the actors. This two parter was going to need to take a massive hit on what was originally planned. And the producers were going to need to start trimming the fat on almost every episode yet to film for the season.

I get the idea of not wanting to see a part 1 indicator, but at the same time I appreciate going in with the pre-knowledge that I shouldn't expect an end to the story on this watch. I hate it when I am expecting an ending and they pull that rug out from under me!

Must disagree. I think it is a much better Story that it is a Indside Job than the Dominion. The Guest Admiral is a great Actor and i can fully immerse in the personal troubles Sisko is going through. Would not happend with the Dominion. More Drama and Character driven.

Best Guest Badmiral by Miles.

26 dead, that admiral gonna be in prison for a LOOONG time

*Ship is under attack, music swells, slow pan up to Worf's face* Worf: "Mr. me, fire."

Pt 1 = S, Pt 2 = A

Every episode tended to have it's own budget, but there was an overall budget for the season. This is why you sometimes have BIG episodes, they will go over-budget and take a chunk out of the overall season budget, so that's how you'll sometimes get very small scale episodes taking place either in limited sets with no SFX or new props/sets or extras. These are called "bottle episodes" and basically save a bunch of money.

I think "Dune, Part 1" was more a marketing thing than anything. "Dune" is a pretty thick book, and the adaptation from the 80's was critisized for how much it tried to cram in one movie, so I can absolutely see it as the director assuring people "No, no, we're taking our time with this and letting the story breathe in this movie series."

DS9 has had a ton of guest actors this season. Rejoined was probably the cheapest episode so far because that is the only episode to really take place on the station and use those sets.

Apparently I’m in the minority in that I prefer this episode over part 1.

I have to hand it to Alex he does have a knack for predicting what’s coming

Nothing bad really happened because Layton was manipulating the situation

So if you didn’t like where part 2 went where would you want it to go

Wesley ran afoul of Red Squad

Star Trek is about optimism it’s about showing no matter how evolved we are we can go back to our basest darkest instincts. It serves as our hope for a better future and as a warning against our present. A warning giving our current situations we have not heeded one damn bit

This was the original end of season 3 cliffhanger story. Paramount wanting Klingons as a focal point in season 4 required a quickly written The Adversary. There wasn't a big enough budget available (as a mid-season 2 parter instead) to do the story's scope justice.

Robert Foxworth (Leyton) has a very special relationship with Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry and Data. See the pilot TV movie 'The Questor Tapes.' Hope I'm not repeating another post.

So, Colm Meaney went to Ira Behr when he got the script and saw the part where he plays a Changeling and told him: “I have a take on this. I hope you like it." I just like to imagine that particular Changeling likes to fuck with people, and he’s always volunteering to be an infiltrator. He probably went to visit O’Brien’s parents right after that, not to do anything nefarious, but just to hang out and play darts.

The plan was very well covered up. They didn't count on Odo staying up all night going through every detail caught them. Great detail.

The changlings are just playing mind games with Sisko. I think for the most part they are always honest they’re just sitting back and laughing at the chaos they’ve caused.

Fun fact, Mina Badie played the security officer that Odo nerve pinched. She is the daughter of the episode's director Reza Badiyi. So....yay for nepotism. I'm honestly not sure whether I like Homefront or PL better. I understand some of the criticisms of this one, but I still think it has some real strengths that make it competitive with Homefront IMO. Leyton is actually one of my favourite "badmirals". His actions are perhaps not quite as understandable as Maxwell's even if he didn't kill nearly as many people. Then again, at least Maxwell wasn't making starfleet ships shoot at each other. Still, I can understand his concerns that Earth and it's people are blissfully ignorant of the threat and that if he doesn't take drastic action, the changelings will destroy them. Leyton's biggest problem is he lost perspective. I don't think he meant for anyone to die initially, but he got so laser focused on his end goal, he didn't see that he was becoming a bigger threat to Earth/the federation's safety than the dominion. One of the strongest scenes IMO is when Sisko tells him "don't you see, you're fighting the wrong war". Leyton didn't have to be dragged away kicking and screaming, he just needed someone he trusted to show him how much he'd lost his way. As for the "Faux'Brien"(saw someone use that and had to borrow it) scene, while I don't love Colm's acting choice there, I don't think the scene is entirely useless. If we take him at his word, it is a scary thought that just 4 changelings can throw Earth into chaos. It also reinforces the level of contempt they have for humanoids, and that there's probably little chance of negotiating with them. They're clearly not content to just defend their space from intruders. If they're willing to infiltrate Earth and try to destabilize the federation, they probably have similar operations going on all over the alpha quadrant. It also begs the question why Leyton didn't just stage an operation to seal off the wormhole. That would probably cost him his career, but at least he'd know an invasion couldn't happen(for almost a century anyway). Regardless of which part you like more, I do think this is a fantastic 2 parter.

Good part 2 but it still suffers from small universe syndrome....it felt like the defiant and Lakota and the office Sisko and the Admiral are in, are the entirety of Starfleet. Space dock itself is an utterly massive facility and there has to be dozens of other starships nearby.

Fun Fact Robert Foxworth has a long association with Gene Roddenberry having starred in the (failed) pilot episode for The Questor Tapes in which he played an Android that some think was a template for Data it was written by GR and Gene Coon I think in 1974.

I do think its fair with a two parter like this to skip the last time on…..we can all do it

I have a different opinion of this episode than many. I know my comment will most likely not sit well with some, but I firmly believe that Admiral Layton was partially right. His tactics may be wrong, but his motives are not, nor are his grievances with the Federation's lax attitude towards the safety of both itself and its citizens. The Dominion feels like a very, very dangerous threat, one that the Federation seems to not take all that seriously. I am under the impression that the Federation (and by extension, Starfleet) will end up paying for this negligence later on. Irrespective of his shady methods, I guess time will tell if Admiral Layton was right or not.

Absolutely LOVE the Lakota. I, too, wish there had been a budget for a much longer slugfest between Sisko's Pimp Hand and that fully pimped-up Excelsior-class super-cruiser. I know the ships were fighting each other off-screen for several minutes (with both of them holding back their more dangerous arsenals), but it's a shame we only got a 10-second clip of footage. Either way, the battle was a very clear demonstration of how irrevocably relevant (and potent) Excelsior-class cruisers still are even by the late 24th century.

The idea of "Paradise Lost" is a military dictatorship not a attack....

I would say, I disagree, the Chief (Changeling) scene was very important in the one. Him telling Sisko that there are only 4 here on earth, which cause earth to be afraid, which let Sisko know, not directly, but that this was not the Changelings doing. Sisko then knows there is another source. Sisko would not have figured it out without that scene. it also keep them fearful, that when the Changeling are ready to send more, they are not going to stop them. I really liked this 2 part episode. It made us believe it was the Changelings, which was the distraction that was planned all along.

I also prefer part 1 to part 2 here. I always remember how creepy it felt the first time I watched this when fake O'Brien pops up like that. Also the arrogance of that changeling as well. I love Joseph Sisko.

I pretty much agree with your takes here. Part 1 was great, part 2 was good.

Great pair of episodes with an important lesson that in real life we totally failed to learn when creating the "Patriot Act"

My takeaway on the two parter is that there was no coincidence that that one changeling was sluming around as Leyton in episode one. They were hoping the admiral would put himself in effective control of Earth and then pull a body snatchers and replace him. By the time people figured it out the Dominion would be well in place to start phase two and who knows what fuckery starfleet would have been puppeted into. Probably a full scale war with the Klingons.

I think Josh is right about the O'Brien scene being a reshoot. it's at night when all other outdoor scenes are in day, and nothing in it shows they are at the Starfleet Headquarters location. In fact it looks suspiciously like the Paramount lot. My guess is in editing people were confused about whether the changelings were everywhere or not and they decided they needed this scene to clarify.

Overall a great two parter, even if part one slightly edges it.

After seeing this episode, I recommend you watch a political drama film called Seven Days in May (1964).

You should rewatch part 1 now that you've seen this. It's such a clever script. From Grampa not eating to Nog complaining about Red Squad, every scene and throwaway line has a larger purpose. It's setup after setup after setup, disguised as genial scenes of character interaction.

Paradise lost. I hate it when that happens. The trick is to remember the last place you left your paradise. And to check between the cushions of your couch,

I love Sisko going into command mode. It’s pretty rare to see the formalities imposed with how friendly our characters typically are with each other. The scene with Nog and the cadet is a good reminder of what the organization is actually like.

Paradise was never so well armed. As second-parts go, this was good. Frankly given the track record of previous second parts...this was great! All in all however, the most dramatic segment was by far the near-minute long total silence from J&A during the title sequence. I've never felt more uncomfortable. A+!

damn they hated this.

its crazy how "Paradis lost" predicted 911 ... if 911 was an inside JOB!!! The only part i don't like is that they don't really explain the changelings part in all this... were they responsible for that bombing in part 1 or was that also an inside job (probably romulans doing it, I don't see starfleet killing their own like this) ...

I think as an episode, it is held back by how much it relies on the relationship between Leyton and Sisko, something we actually didn't get to see a whole lot of in Homefront. It would have been really nice if Leyton had been a recurring character in previous episodes, possibly even in place of the admiral in The Die is Cast who reluctantly ordered Sisko to stay out of things but then secretly praised him for going behind his back. Just some previously stated connection to make their division stand out more. After all, that's why serialization worked so well for DS9. They could tell these larger stories while limiting the need for additional exposition. Having to spend the time expanding on the relationship between Leyton and Sisko really slowed the pace of the episode and reduced the impact of otherwise great scenes where the two argue about the ethics of Leyton's actions. Still love this two-parter, though.

I believe for Trek, they had a fixed budget for the season, and so if they overspent earlier, they had to make up for it later. It’s why you sometimes see them doing bottle shows as the penultimate episode so they can save that money and put it towards the finale. Duet was conceived in part because they needed to make a cheap episode.

I love this story on so many levels. Yes the dominion killed 27 people at the conference but it still feels like a Cold War. Klingons ended up starting a war with the Cardassians and end the treaty of the federation. Earth/humans didn’t let it get that far. However, 2 people killed on the defiant and 24 of the other ship plus starfleet lost what I gather was a good admiral = 27 more officers gone. Also, can I gush about the Defiant a little. Sisko’s wife is killed at Wolf359 then he spends 3 years working on Utopia Plantia on mars building Starfleet’s only war-class ship to fight the borg. The other ship being upgraded to match its abilities it neat too.

A little bit of triva about Robert Foxworth. He played the lead in pilot that Gene Rodeberry shot called the Questor tapes.

I love the President being like “A Starfleet Admiral going bad? Inconceivable!” Sir, have you not seen seven seasons of TNG?

They blew the season's budget on The Way of the Warrior

Will die on the hill BoBW2 lives up to part one. I would argue the Odo / Changeling Layton scene is important because we learn of how upset the Link is with Odo…. I'm with you, the O'Brien changeling scene was awkward and didn't fit. I always wanted Sisko to pull a concealed phaser and stun the prick as he's walking off.

Don’t think it came up in the discussion for either episode, but this story was what was originally going to be the season 3 finale/season 4 opener. Paramount told Ira and company they didn’t want a season-ending cliffhanger for whatever reason, so they had to write The Adversary in a week. Obviously, the episodes would have had a much bigger budget if they had been done then. Ira thought that limiting the budget so compromised the episodes, particularly this one, that he put a note on the wall for the rest of the season that just said “Remember Paradise Lost.”

I do wanna ask: Do we all think Layton had Red Squad murdered? I don't think so, only because he wasn't that level of evil. He would have been more the type to send them on a bullshit mission in deep space somewhere and would have brought them back once he seized power. Edit: Then again, he was willing to destroy the Defiant, but at that point he completely lost perspective and it came down to emergency self-preservation.

Damn! Thanks for the almost immediate drop of part 2 <3

I agree that part 1 is much better, but it's really comparing two good things, and the fact that episode 1 was steller doesn't take away from this very good conclusion. Nothing about Paradise Lost let me down, per se, when I watched it. I guess my reaction was something like, "Oh....well, I didn't expect THAT." I do think the 'We end up being the monsters that destroy ourselves' is used WAY too often in Trek, but then again, it's the Changelings' entire M.O. so I can give it a pass. This time. Part 1: S Part 2: A Overall: A+

I never understood the complaint about the lack of extras playing security guards on the streets. It's a global blackout. How many officers do we expect to see on each street over the entire planet? There are around 100 million streets on Earth today and we see four Starfleet Officers standing outside a Creole Restaurant on some random street in New Orleans. So even if they dont build any new streets on Earth for the next 346 years, it would still take 400 million Starfleet Officers to cover the planet at that level. If you ask me, there were too many extras.

Colm Meany sure looked like he had fun playing Faux' Brien. Curiously, this makes for the third Episode where Meaney got to play a fake version of the chief. The other two episodes being Whispers and Crossover.

Can we take a moment to appreciate Admiral Leighton's voice? Smooth as silk

Part 1 is a great set up. Slightly compromised second part. Tho still good. It could have been more.

🥰😃🥰 After Past Tense I was nervous to get excited but you liked part one. So haven't watched the follow up yet but 🥰🥰🥰, THANK YOU for the early release.

Refresh win! I hope you like this one. I'd say its a good part 2, even if I prefer part 1 slightly more.