UNCUT - Starship Down (DS9 S4E7) | Star Trek Journey 384

You'll notice those engineers aren't wearing any pips on their uniforms. It's not that engineers don't go to Starfleet Academy. Just THESE ones.

To clarify, O'Brien's engineering team are enlisted men. O'Brien himself is an enlisted man. Enlisted men don't go to the academy, they just sign up and get a quick "boot camp" type training

On a rewatch I definitely thought it was weaker than originallly watched I’d give it a B

As an atheist…y’all need to lighten up on the religion/prophets stuff. They’re literally extremely powerful non-corporeal aliens that exist outside of linear time and care for Bajor. Is it any wonder the Bajorans worship them as gods? It’s fiction. It’s okay to be okay with it.

Dax and Bashir: Interesting that you viewed it as reopening a story that they've moved past because I was it more as closure of that particular storyline. Kind of acknowledging that it had been a thing, but that they'd moved past it. Which I was glad for. Kira and religion: Honestly, the religious part of Kira's character has always been my favorite story for her. I think DS9 does an excellent job incorporating and exploring religion in this setting. I think it's refreshing to see a character who embraces religion so fully. Religion may not be for everyone, but religion in one form or another is still a key part of a society or culture and I like how DS9 actually addresses that. You don't see that very often in TV. Worf: I love Worf as a character but I had a hard time seeing him in DS9 because it didn't feel like the same Worf that we knew for seven years in TNG. It was like it looked like the same character but was written very different. I know many fans would disagree, but it just never really felt right to me. Like a sequel to a really great movie that fails to capture the magic of the original movie.

You ask “how is this a submarine episode?” 1) They’re dealing with extreme hull pressure and their ship function is limited/compromised by it. They can’t maneuver like they’re in regular space. Gas giant atmosphere = deep sea dive, and getting crushed to death is one of the big threats. 2) They have very limited visibility and their sensors aren’t working, so they can only tell where the other ships are with a SONAR analog. It’s a blind chase in the murk instead of your typical 2 vs 1 space battle, and it’s not even easy to tell which object is the ship they’re trying to protect. 3) They have to be crafty and resourceful with their strategy and their weapons. They don’t have the full arsenal to use, so they have to rely on ingenuity to find and destroy their enemies while hiding their location. In a normal space battle, who has better weapons and shields is usually much more influential to the outcome. Subs can’t use surface warfare techniques, so they come up with other approaches due to necessity. 4) There’s as much tension from “Is the ship going to be destroyed by what we’re surrounded by”?” as there is from “is the ship going to be destroyed by the enemy?”

An academy is where the most elite of future officers are trained. If you aren’t seeking to become an officer (ensign, lieutenant, commander, captain, admiral), you would not try to enter the academy. In the real world, the military academies are very selective and only admit people with the highest potential, so not even all officers have attended an academy. People with medical degrees, nursing qualifications, and law degrees are automatically commissioned as officers whether or not they attend an academy. People with other kinds of college degrees may also apply for commission directly as an officer without attending an academy. There are at least two other ways to become an officer—Reserve Officers Training Corps, and Officer Candidate School. Most technically trained people like engineers are not commissioned officers but are ratings or petty officers (in the navy) or enlisted ranks, noncommissioned officers, or warrant officers (in other services). It kind of doesn’t make sense that almost every officer we meet in Star Trek graduated from Starfleet Academy because that would make the academy a whole lot bigger and a lot less elite than real life academies, but whatever. But it makes total sense that O’Brien and enlisted people working under him didn’t attend the academy. They’re not officers; they’re just working stiffs.

If they want to have this plotline where Kira feels awkward around Sisko due to her religious beliefs, I wish they would *show* it in other episodes. I don't get the feeling that her relationship with Benjamin is any different than the other bridge officers until she randomly brings it up when they decide to do a Kira-Emissary plotline, and it makes it seem like she is a different character than what we see in the rest of the show.

With Worf, he is no longer a department head, he's become the first officer of a starship. There is a transition there in style. I agree with Josh that the stakes are high for the first officer in this situation when the captain is severely injured, ship highly damaged, etc. I don't think Worf was too hard on the ensign in the beginning, however in a time of crisis, he was having to order around O'Brien's people and not motivating the crew. Threatening to relieve the crewman in that situation is a bit harsh.

The problem isn't that Worf is being too much of a "hard ass." It's that his command style is micromanaging. He keeps deciding what the solution is himself instead of letting the people who are more qualified in that area, like engineering, figure out the solution themselves. Worf has experience as a department head. That's entirely different than being in command of the whole ship. Worf's style might work when he's the head of security, is the most qualified person there when it comes to security, and is commanding a small team. But when you command a ship, you have to manage multiple departments that you have no expertise in. This episode teaches Worf one of the many lessons about command that Worf needs to learn. Being in command doesn't mean you try to figure everything out on your own, and then give someone an order. It's more about getting the best out of the people who serve under you by letting them do their job, and come up with solutions using their own expertise. You're working with professionals. Use their knowledge to help you solve the situation, don't bypass them. You're never going to have all the information yourself. How many times did you hear Picard say "suggestions?" Then everyone gave their solutions, and Picard made the final choice. Or heck, this was the whole point of the ready room, to hear input from everyone on the situation so Picard could figure out how to best proceed. Especially in the case of engineering, you command engineering by telling them what you want to do, and then they figure out the best way to do it. As O'brien said, those people are designed to be problem solvers. You don't tell them to change their own console that they probably had a very good reason to modify in order to keep some crucial part of the ship running, because you're not used to the interface. You don't know why they made the decisions that they did, and you shouldn't just assume it was because of incompetentcy. You need to trust that these people know what they're doing instead of telling them that they have to "work harder." Same thing with the Ensign at the beginning. Worf just assumed incompetency when the time wasn't up to his standard without listening to WHY the time was that way, or even knowing if getting the time down was the most important thing to worry about in that situation. This is what can happen when you focus more on the individual pieces instead of the whole. This is a common problem in the workforce too with managers who don't understand how to manage trained professionals. Fortunately, Worf learns this lesson once Chief talks to him, and it's confirmed at the end of the episode when he tells the engineering crew to "proceed at their own discretion" instead of micromanaging them. This isn't "letting off the reins," it's letting people do their own job so you get the best work out of them. This adds another piece to Worf's command experience arc that was introduced in Way of the Warrior, and first explored in Hippocratic Oath. In Hippocratic Oath, we also see that Worf is a micromanger. Only there, the lesson was for him to learn that being in command now means he is no longer Head of Security. And again, he needs to learn how to work within his own role now, and let others, like Odo, handle their own jobs as they see fit. Worf has never had to delegate responsibility before. He's used to having all of the control and responsibility himself, and he holds himself to very high standards. This is where the micromanaging comes from. Worf doesn't know how to let that go, to the point where letting go of that control and responsibility feels irresponsible on his part. He's not going to learn all of this and change his entire style in just one episode. As stated in Way of the Warrior, Worf has a lot to learn about command.

Don't know how young David Mack was here and what part of the episode he wrote. However, 20 years later he became the best Star Trek writer (books) and has developed an amazing understanding of the star trek characters... But I think this topic is difficult since it would consist of 98% of spoilers - so, just note that some writers will get better over time ;)

Yeah, definitely disagree on this one. For me a B+. Never found it amazing, but it's nowhere near a D. Very solid episode. There have already been a plethora of comments explaining the officer/enlisted thing, Jay Field probably being the best explanation. In brief, I'm just going to say if you're of the mind that officer equals REAL starfleet, and enlisted equals "the guys who couldn't make the cut", you're way off the mark. O'Brien would have gone through a couple months of basic training, and then began working in his assigned department after getting the applicable training. At one point he worked in the security branch and saw combat, and seems to have picked up some engineering and transporter skills during that time. He clearly distinguished himself enough for Maxwell to make him his tactical officer. He manned the helm early on in TNG, before settling in as transporter chief, and all that experience combined to catch Sisko's attention and get him assigned as DS9's chief of operations(practically speaking chief engineer). He likely has commissioned officers in his department who outrank him, but that doesn't matter. A 24 year old Lt. 2 years out of the academy is NOT going to have the knowledge or experience that O'Brien does, and they're certainly not "better". Any officers on DS9's engineering staff will still report to O'Brien, because rank aside, Sisko put him in charge, and if they try to pull rank on O'Brien, Sisko's the one who will have their asses for it. Comparing O'Brien to Geordi, they've both had various jobs in starfleet, but O'Brien is more experienced. First because he was born 7 years earlier, and also because he was out there getting practical, real world experience from the age of 18 or so, while LaForge would have been in the academy till 22. Is O'Brien a better engineer? Yeah, probably at this point. Not saying Geordi isn't great at his job, but once Geordi had settled into the chief engineer role, his job was to maintain and fine tune a brand new, state of the art ship. O'Brien had to rebuild an old cardassian station from the wreck they left it as, and integrate starfleet tech into incompatible systems, and then he had to figure out how to make the defiant work without tearing itself apart. O'Brien hasn't just been at it longer, his skills have faced significantly greater challenges. Geordi outranks him, yes, but in no way does that fact make him a better engineer than O'Brien. Best way to think of officers/enlisted is that enlisted are the guys that do things at any job you've ever worked, and officers are the supervisors/managers. If a store or business were all managers, nothing would get done, there would be constant meetings, they'd have no idea how to do half the jobs they're used to delegating, and those they could do, they wouldn't like do very well. Enlisted and NCOs are going to be the backbone of an organization like starfleet. Turning down noncoms with a decade plus of real experience for a bunch of ensigns and lieutenants who've only been in space for a couple years would make the Enterprise run WAY worse. As to the stuff I liked in this episode, it was pretty well all the character moments. Dax/Bashir was the weakest, and I think Alex's idea about bringing up Lenara and Melora would have worked well, but I also don't have the playfulness of being able to laugh at how infatuated Julian used to be. Quark and Hanok's story was fun. Not much character growth, Quark is still Quark, but it's nice to see someone beat him at his own game once in a while. I think Kira's desperation at not being able to help Sisko is quite touching. She tries to give him space as far as being the Emissary, but she believes what she believes, and when she exhausted every other option she could think of, she turned to her faith. I don't think Sisko took any offense. Telling her to finish the story was his way of reassuring her that he wasn't dying just yet. And yeah the ending scene was great. Kira and Sisko have had great moments before(Circle 3 parter), but it's a big step forward for them to just hang out as friends. I think Worf is a bit out of his element in dealing with engineers. He's used to working security, running tactical drills, leading away missions, that kind of thing. It's much more about people doing things. Worf isn't an engineer, and a starship is an incredibly complicated piece of equipment. People can to an extent train to overcome their limits, but when it comes to machines, you come up against hard limits that you can't just ignore. There may be work arounds, or alternatives, but it's going to be the people used to crawling around in the guts of the ship to figure that out, not some officer who just wants to get his way. Worf being so receptive to that with only the lightest nudge from O'Brien speaks to how far he's come over the years.

One of the things I really appreciate about this show is that they weave the religious aspect in. What does an alien religion look like? What if Sisko is the analog of Jesus Christ in an alien religion? How does he and the rest of the crew deal with that? Also, the academy is like West Point. It is for the best of the best and creates future leaders. Most of Starfleet goes through some other sort of training, just like boot camp instead of West Point.

Not as great as I remembered. Couple of good scenes. Dax and Bashir scene was kinda lame. Episode felt a little flat. It was fine

The guys were really off their game for this one. It's a B, and I understand some of their complaints, but they were both really irritated by everything.

I'm kinda in the same boat when it comes to the Defiant. I don't *dis*like it but I liked the importance of the runabouts in the first 2 seasons. If budget allowed my ideal DS9 would've had a handful of small/medium ships with different specialties docked at the station. Give it that feeling of being a port.

I know this will be read as dismissive, but all the evidence indicates that y’all just don’t like boat movies. Master & Commander, Red October, this? If it’s a story that works best on a ship, you won’t like it.

It's a submarine episode. The problem is that it's wedged into a 45 minute run time, and they have to introduce the situation and there's all this stuff about James Cromwell and Quark added in that the submarineness isn't effective. Submarine movies work because of the tension... and this episode just can't build any of that. I don't think it's necessarily a bad episode. But it's probably the weakest of the season so far. It's not the low mark of the season (there are two particular episodes yet to come that I think are worse) but given that it's an average episode and yet one of the worst of the season (IMO) tells you just how good the season is.

Def thing you guys are down on this one for the hunt for red October ‘ wrath of khan vibes (like the nebula stuff in Khan) the defiant def isn’t wedged in here it’s a great addition to expand what can be done in the show. The character stuff was good but there’s def better in this show, I def think your too harsh on the episode in general.

After watching this episode I gave it an A - but because it's always been just so forgettable in the context of the season and the series, I'd have to drop it to a B.

Keep in mind about the Bashir-Dax scenes that a lot of people like me missed most of the first three seasons and just came back in season 4. Their scenes helped clarify their past for people whose memories were murky about their relationship up to season four.

I mean you must understand that they make episodes for different tastes. This has a much higher rating then the last episodes, showing the general audience like this episode more the the ones you love. Me personally I love this and I hate the one with dax former wife that was a snooze fest to me and had a low rating.

Not all engineers don't go to academy but Chief never did, and if we want him in charge no other can otherwise every ensign outranks him

Paramount for me has the NEXT episode as 7 and THIS episode as 8 probably because in germany this aired on the 22th october and the next episode aired on the 21th october xD so paramount changed its order for germany but then in germany it aired one year after usa and the season was basicly every day a new episode. 1 episode a day

During Kira story my eyes started rolling back in my head too.

Reading the comments here, I'm glad I just had time to watch the reaction and not the review after it. It always annoys me when writers are attacked on false premises.

Oh also, as for staying calm under pressure. That is a thing. For example, in my job I deal with people having heart attacks, being shot, horrific car accidents, all of the time. But when we are performing life saving measures, we are not shouting and being dramatic like they do in movies and shows. We have our job to do and we do it with focus. Sure, maybe that sounds crazy to someone who does not do this type of stuff, but when it's your job, it's just your job. Oh, and Kira killed Sisko. The guy had intracranial pressure caused by a blow to the head. His brain was filling up with fluid. Forcing him to stay awake cause more stress, affecting his blood pressure, which is putting more strain on his body and trying to force more fluid into his brain. Then she gave him a stimulant, which is going to make all of that worse. The best thing for him is to actually fall asleep (the stay awake thing is movie nonsense). So basically, if Sisko isn't dead, he has significant brain damage.

Quick Guide: NCO = Non-Commissioned Officer (no college degree) Commissioned Officer = Officer (college degree ; in this case, they got their degree at Starfleet Academy). Miles is I think the second or third possible highest rank he can be, and his rank basically is derived from the Navy. So he is really up there, but he never went to college (Starfleet Academy), but as you can see, he is very capable. He received training, but he just didn't get a college degree for it. More details bellow. The Academy is basically college. Just like anything, you get training for your position, and that includes leadership training. If you are going to be an engineer, you are going to get engineer training, but if you are not going to the Academy proper, you are not going to be an officer. You are essentially getting a certificate, like a welder would. So even if they did not go to the Academy, they are definitely very well trained. Real life example that involves my family: My dad was a staff sergeant in the Air Force. That put's him at a decent rank as an enlisted person (not an officer because he does not have a college degree), but he was in a leadership role and he helped lead a natural disaster evacuation. Another example is my grandfather. He retired a Command Sergeant Major in the Army, which is the second highest rank you can get as an enlisted (not an officer). At that rank, you're kind of treated at the same level as a general/admiral (depending on what branch of the military you are referencing, but as you should be able to tell by this point, a general/admiral would have college degrees.... would have gone to Starfleet Academy). Also, Starfleet IS a military. They just have a more scientific inclination in the 23rd/24th century. *EDIT* Just FYI, they originally were just not creative enough in Star Trek to differentiate NCOs and Officers with the pips on the collar. Now in these lates DS9 episodes, you can see a clear distinction with O'Brien's new collar rank. I think (could be wrong) all NCOs bellow O'Brien do not get anything on their collar now.

It's a fine bottle episode. There's a bit of awkwardness like you mentioned with some of the dialogue, but I'd rather watch this than have Chakotay talk to an animal on VOY or whatever. Edit/ After listening to the discussion after, I'm surprised you didn't notice the submarine references. They literally created a space sonar, because they have no visual scanning, they ping for Jem'Hadar ships. Sisko asks them to make a literal homing torpedo by using a quantum torpedo warhead attached to a probe. It's pretty much been established that a lot of space battles in Trek are based of naval warfare. It was like this since TOS in Balance of Terror. Anyway, on to the next one! :D

Wait, really guys? The 3 minute scene of them coming up with a technobabble justification for SONAR in Space or O'brien referencing plain ol' torpedoes, or Worf using a mine, or having to deal with atmospheric pressures buckling the hull didn't clue you in on the whole submarine thing? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Just replace "Atmospheric gasses," with "Water" and boom, submarine movie. R/whoosh.

I missed the chance to leave a take but mine was going to be: "Neither of them will forgive this episode for introducing a Sisko-Kira baseball game off screen" I don't see this as a 'Worf' character building episode so much as a 'Chief' one. We've seen him be the guy, but we've never seen him lead a team. Now we do, and he's awesome. Knows how to get respect, when to push and when not, how to joke to keep the peace and morale. O'Brien just needed someone to job for him and Worf answered the call. When your two favorite wrestlers face off, typically only one is made to get the push so you have to love the match for what it is.

Last week on DS9: "We have to accept everyone for whatever they want to do. I can't believe people could be so backwards to judge another for their feelings or lifestyle." This week on DS9: "Screw you if you believe in anything bigger than yourself in the universe. Don't push that garbage on me."

Yeah, some people treat their Faith (not religion) as a very personal thing, and don't bring it up all the time, even when they struggle to fit it in among other aspects of their lives. But sometimes, when they're struggling, that big aspect they keep to themselves comes out, because they get comfort from it. Kira was praying not to get Sisko magically cured, but to give HERSELF comfort. It was for Her. That's what faith does for people. Then you dump religion - the system and politicalization of groups of similarly faithful, into the mix and that starts to suck because that is about the People, in faith, and people suck my dudes. And again. There's a whole race of aliens in the wormhole. Starfleet won't blow it up. A "Comnission" is the official documentation that gives standing or rank in a military. It's what signifies the authority to lead - to be an Officer. Everyone from Ensign to Grand Admiral has a commission. They went to a specialized school to get it, in this case, Starfleet Academy. It's like getting a Bachelors, Masters or PhD. Non-Comms are those who did not attend the Academy, or only took basic courses. Think of technical Certificates than the above mentioned Academic Distictions. They hold no Officer Rank, and only get training either on the Basics, or on the job. An Ensign fresh from the Military School will outrank any Non-Comm. Both real-world and in Star Trek. That's right, ecen as Chief of Operations, Miles Edward O'Brien is outranked by an Ensign. But he's fine with that, because he got where he is through hard work, not schooling like those snooty Officers. To be fair, Star Trek has not delved into this dynamic much and treats it as common sense. Kudos for figuring out that Worf commands the Defiant and not Kira because it's a Starfleet ship. I've seen plenty of people not make that connection.

I’ll stick with my main, concise point: it’s first-time viewing, not thirty years of re-viewing along with associated thoughts and perspectives. I get the feelings, but again, it’s a first-time reaction.

This is one I always skip, so it was nice to see you had similar opinions. It's not terrible or anything, and the little boost to Kira's relationship with Sisko is worthwhile, but it's just not especially interesting to me as an episode.

I think this is a terrific episode. I found most of this reaction to be odd and weird-spirited.

I like this ep a bit more than your reaction, but I think your take is completely fare. My take on Dax/Julian is just a way of joking about the past and moving on to a friendship and being playful about it, although it could have been done better. i've always felt like Kira's faith is a central part of her make-up but she's very practical when it comes to being on duty. As far as Non Commissioned Officers - I think there's been at least one or two times where Miles jokes around about why he stayed an unlisted man. :) And yeah, this is a total submarine ep. They're forced to use a type of sonar to track the other ships. The gas layers take the place of being in water. The fighting strategies/scenes use submarine tactics. The hatch must be closed or everyone on the ship will die. A nod to submarine fans. Even tho I enjoy this more, enjoyed your analysis of the ep. ♥ And Nana is soooo adorable~~~ Her personal bravery means so much to me. I don't know if you have read what happened to her leaving the studio in an earlier season, but that she kept going and used her own anxieties/PTSD to play Kira is a testament to the woman she is.

Josh, are you guys a bit cold on anything military related in movies or shows? You’ve said before that you don’t like “period pieces”. Not sure what that meant. Have you seen Saving Private Ryan or The Patriot? Big popular ones that are amazing.

Bashir had to put up with Jazdia and her weird “lover of the week” last episode at supper. Now he saves her life. He’s allowed to share whatever fantasies he damn well wants.

Everyone is saying that it’s like a submarine because the ships were right next to each other, but couldn’t see. At one point Alex has an audible reaction to hearing that their visibility is reduced to 2 kilometers. Very distinct from most of the other ship combat in trek we’ve seen. Also, the explosive probe possibly seeking their own ship is right out of red October. You’ve killed us!!!

Welcome to today's episode of "Kira mentions religion so Josh and Alex check out of the reaction".

Silver lining on this episode is that I would say with the occasional exception this is pretty much the floor for DS9 going forward, just kinda meh with some good bits sprinkled in.

I overall agree kinda meh episode with a number of good moments. In particular I disagree about Kira and her religion. This may be due in part to the fact that I studied Religion but I also have my own big issues with Organized Religion but I think there are big differences between how Kira acts and truly obnoxious religious people act. Honestly your criticism about how her religion is compartmentalized in her character is actually a positive to me. It's a part of who she is and comes up when relevant but its just one part of her. She also is keenly aware of how others (Winn) corrupt religion for power and she is never portrayed as gullible or anything because of it. Even how it has come between her and Sisko, is something she doesn't like and wants to have a real friendship with him despite him being a religious icon to her. Even the whole prayer thing is an act of desperation done for someone she cares about. Kira never pushes her religion or its agenda on others like Winn does. To Kira her Religion is largely an aspect of her culture where for Winn it is a weapon. Unfortunately there are a lot of people these days more like Winn and I understand how it colors your view of Kira in that regard but I think you should try and reframe the Bajoran religion a bit in your heads in a more cultural context which historically it has been rather than the evangelizing of more modern religious discourse. I say this largely cause this stuff ain't going away and I think reframing it will help you enjoy it more, especially given the fact that the show is very willing to call it out when it has negative impacts which is what Winn is all about.

This is another Worf lesson episode. O'Brien does a GREAT senior NCO doing what great senior NCOs do...school officers on how to effectively utilize the enlisted to accomplish the mission. Worf learned that, yes, he could micro-manage the situation and bark orders to the crew or he could set the goal and trust them & allow them to figure out it out using their expertise. All officers in the military go through this same lesson. As junior officers, they bark orders and expect people to jump because of their limited span of control. But once they have to act as senior officers, they have other things to worry about...the bigger picture. Some officers have a harder time adjusting than others. I rather like this episode. It reminds me of military life.

Jesus loves The Corre

Josh, I very much appreciate your correctly translating my many typos! I can’t edit on patron takes and I usually notice the typos in the nanosecond after I hit “send”. The new photo is in honor of the next episode 🙂. As far as the writers, John Ordover was already editing the Trek novels for Pocket Books (the publisher) before this episode. Not sure about the other writer. The audience for books vs TV is different (at least according to Ordover said on a message board post I read years ago). And I think that shows here. I remember when it aired many fans loved it. But it wasn’t my cuppatea.

I haven't watched this one in a while. I really like how much this one leans into the submarine combat style. Star Trek combat is generally battleship or submarine warfare where Star Wars had more fighter dog fighting. This episode is VERY submarine.

I'm sitting here watching the discussion...I'm just disagreeing so extremely with literally every word coming out of your mouths. Its wild lol. Its just so perfectly opposite its like its scripted. :)

As for religion...in DS9 the Bajoran religion is REAL. This is a critical, central element of DS9. Its not about faith at all.

There is no continuity error with regard to enlisted personnel not going to the Academy. Why would they? That's not what the Academy is for.

Important point: Anyone can join Starfleet by basically going to a recruiter and enlisting. The Chief did just that. He enlisted. That's why he's a Chief, and not a Lieutenant or whatever. Those who enlist, which is probably the majority of Starfleet, do not go to the Academy. The Academy is a four year program of training and academics to be a COMMISSIONED officer. You do not need to be an officer to be an engineer on a ship. You really think everyone in the engine room on an aircraft carrier went to the Naval Academy? No. they didn't. They received training for their rating from other schools within the Navy. You do not need to be officer to turn wrenches, so to speak.

S-Tier, top shelf episode. One of the best episodes of DS9 thus far. The last episode, while excellent, was basically a soap opera with a twist of scifi in the premise. This episode is STAR TREK. Capital fucking letters STAR fucking TREK. Its important to remember that STAR TREK is NOT a soap opera. Its a science fiction TV show. A fun one, with pew pews and explosions and giant funny looking swords. At its core, it is NOT a soap opera. Its not just people staring into each other's eyes and saying lines about their feelings and daddy issues and bla bla bla. There is *SO MUCH MORE* to Star Trek than that. It can slow down sometimes and do episodes where people just stand around and talk about their feelings....and that's fine. A lot of the best episodes really are that simplistic. But an episode like this perfectly blends the emotional characters crying or whatever...with some actual STAR TREK. Things happening! FUN! Star Trek should not be judged for not being a soap opera as if its some sort of failure. Its a different genre entirely.

Fun B tier episode. A bit of good tension and some of the interactions are fun.

David Mack is one of the best writers in the history of Trek.

I’m not overtly religious but in my opinion this builds on the sisko/kira relationship . Kira had to watch opala die and it’s tough for her to see sisko in a similar situation. It also helps sisko embrace his position as emissary Even if he’s uncomfortable with it presently. To me this is what you guys say you want building of character.

I love the religious aspects of DS9 it stands it apart from every other Star Trek show. Starship battles are a massive part of Trek since Balance of Terror. Excellent episode.

One of the best episodes of the season imo. This is one I've been looking forward to seeing again. I almost feel like we watched a totally different episode.

Not a surprise this one's a mixed bag for the guys. Alex has a LOT of hostility toward any honest and outward expression of religion and Josh is pretty much bored/doesn't care about it. This ep also has a 'tense submarine' naval style plot, which they also hate. I absolutely love this episode though. It's a fun naval-style combat plot that's used as a pretext for some really good character moments and growth. A great blend of plot/character here. Sisko/Kira: Great stuff! Real character growth for both of them. Kira's desperation and earnestness was well conveyed. This incident allowed Kira to kind of "break the ice" with Sisko socially, which is wonderful to see. (An aside to Alex: If you believe prayer and faith is just stupid nonsense, why even CARE if someone prays for you? The fact you can't even see the genuine good will and intent from Kira here to help Sisko in the only way she knew how to in that moment, and to interpret that good will as "imposing" her belief on Sisko, is so very sad and far more a "you" problem than anything else. When people honestly pray for you, their intent is for YOUR GOOD. To spit at that good will is frankly self-destructive and comes across as needlessly nasty and vindictive, regardless of whatever you personally believe.) Worf/engineering: a perfect situation for Worf to continue to learn the ropes of command. There's a nice little character arc forming here, between his intro, the Odo/Quark stuff, and now this. O'Brien tutoring Worf on the side, and Worf taking it well, is just so well done. I'll let others educate the guys about non-comms, which has been brought up in the show before. Quark/James Cromwell: a little bit of world-building, but mostly just a really fun tension-breaker segment. I got a lot of laughs out of these two. Dax/Bashir: good to get some closure and laughs over Julian's early season bumbling over her and how they now have a legit friendship. Slight, but nice. The episode also had quite nice effects, and I really enjoyed the tactical intelligence of the writing. Always bummed when the guys don't like one of my favorites, but such is life. :)

Remember the episode the drumhead, when Picard is having tea with Simon the part romulan human. He told Picard he didn’t want to sit in classrooms for 4 years he wanted to get out into the stars and be in the field. So you do not have to go to Star fleet but they are trained but they won’t ever gain rank

I agree this isn't as good as Disaster, but for me not far off. I still give it high A, i love every part of it.

Also, the engineers on the Defiant are here identified as civilian contractors. They are engineering specialists, not Starfleet Academy. While they are on the Defiant, they are not Academy-trained officers. They are still members of the Federation. The engineering roles are staffed by petty officers or chief petty officers.

As to chief's comment "Everyone's dead," the only thing I can think about is that this is the assumption you have to make in a situation like this. You're in engineering, you can't reach the bridge, and you must make the assumption, "We're in this alone; everyone is dead. What do we do to survive this?" His words can then be seen as a direction to those working beneath him: "Don't think about the bridge or anyone else... we have to get this taken care of here. Everyone else is dead as far as you are concerned." This keeps everyone focused on solutions, rather than, "Hey, is anyone coming to save us???? Help!"

Submarine, as in going lower threatens crushing the hull of the ship, and not being able to see you ememy, using sonar to find them. Watch the movie Das Boot!

People forget, but Sisko helped design the Defiant when he was serving at Utopia Planetia between Wolf 359 and his assignment to DS9. It makes sense that he'd have some insight into her capabilities.

What a: "Oh no, the Plot!" Episode. Which is a bummer becuase the Idea of the Plot is really great. Submarine and Stealth, leaks, high Pressure... but 90% of the Plot Time felt flat. So much potential wasted. But on the other hand, the personal Scenes were good, foremost Kira and Sisko. D for the Plot, B for the Rest. So overall a C.

A couple of things regarding your comments that they should just seal or destroy the wormhole. That action would be incredibly short sighted. To the Federation, the wormhole is a unique subspace anomaly. To the Bajorans, it is the Celestial Temple, and the aliens inside are the Prophets—their literal gods. Bajor was just recovering from decades of a brutal Cardassian occupation. If the Federation had shown up and blown up their heaven, it would have destroyed the Bajoran people's spirit and completely severed the alliance between Bajor and Starfleet. Sisko would never have allowed it unless there was absolutely no other choice. Also, the Federation's foundational mandate is to explore the universe and seek out new life. Permanently walling off an entire quadrant of the galaxy because they encountered a hostile empire goes completely against Starfleet's ideology. At this point in the show, they genuinely believed they could find a diplomatic solution or co-exist with the Dominion.

Jesus loves you, Alex!

A bit odd to have another disaster episode after 'Civil Defence'. I appreciate the new wrinkles the script puts on this template, but it still is a submarine in desperate circumstances story. I assume season budget considerations meant that a bottle show was required. The problem with bottle shows on DS9 is that quite a few seem to be written at short notice.

The Defiant gets better when it goes bald, grows a goatee and starts drinking prune juice.

The legendary streak is over. Long live the next streak.

In 30 years of watching Trek I've never understood the thing about Star Trek having enlisted people and officers and the two things being separate. If I was to look at it uncharitably, I'd guess the enlisted men are just there to mend the toilets and be cannon fodder, but O'Brien worked his way up out of sheer usefulness.

It's weird that Alex and Josh can be SOOO wrong on occasion! This is one of my favorite episodes of the season.

David Mack has written plenty of great Trek novels and comics, most of which came after he co-wrote this episode with John Ordover (who was the editor for Pocket Books’s Star Trek novels for many years).

B for Barely B minus

not the freaking CORRE shirt..

Do i need to leave a comment about the difference between nco's vs academy officers like 20 other people or do you guys get it? Lol

I did always wonder, if Nog hadn't been able to get into Starfleet Academy, could he have gone the O'Brien route and just enlisted? Do you have to be a Federation citizen to sign up?

It's not that engineers don't go to the Academy, it's that NCOs in any discipline - engineering, securitty, science - don't go to the Academy. I'm sure this has been established before, it's not the writers dropping the ball.

I’ve never been a big fan of the episode. It’s a “it’s fine” one for me. Never really liked the Jadzia and Julian stuff the Worf plot felt contrived and I didn’t like the scenes with Sisko and Kira as much. That being said I do disagree- I like that we have a Kira who is religious it’s a different take on a character and it feels original enough that I am glad they touch on it.

Re: religion I think the thing they're complaining about is not so much that it exists, but more the concern that Kira/Sisko plotlines will devolve back to just illustrating the conflict between Bajoran religion and Starfleet atheism. Or that the religious aspects seem disconnected from the wider plotlines.

The Hunt for The Red Jem'Hadar 😂 I knew this episode would be a mixed bag because combat in of itself has little innate entertainment value to the both of you. Whereas I and many others could sit and watch a naval combat or submarine movie with barely any character moments and be on the edge of our seats with 140 bpm hearts bumping against our chests, thrilled beyond words. The Gerald Butler sub movie was epic as hell as another example (Hunter Killer I think it's called) Personal preference, nothing else to it, all good there. About Dax and Julian, makes sense they'd reopen that old history of theirs because they thought they were going to be dead in a few hours. Obviously, we as viewers know they won't die, but as characters, it fits fine. A bit awkward but Julian's is still a young guy not perfectly attuned to ideal sociality even if he has had a lot of growth since S1. Spitting out their history and trying to turn it into a laughing moment in their final coffin, sure. I buy it, and I like it. Regarding Kira's religious side, I'm agnostic myself, but it rarely bothers me if people demonstrate their faith overtly around me, as long as they don't try to force it on me. I suppose in a way, calling Sisko the Emissary could be viewed that way by him, but I never viewed it as Kira's intent to be pushy or convert him to her way of thinking. Her beliefs are what ground her, kept her spirit alive in during the occupation, so especially in her case, I can forgive those displays because they're rooted kilometers deep into her essence. And about Starfleet continuing to travel into the Gamma Quadrant, it's what Starfleet / humanity does. We're explorers. Q warned Picard about it and gave them a glimpse of what awaits them with The Borg. It's not for the timid out here, but Sisko and everyone onboard knows that. They know the game they're playing and play it anyways, that's the gamble, the thrill that our humans souls compel us to pursue.

Starfleet is a military service. That means there are two ways to join: enlistment or education. Enlisting is like going to trade school. You do basic training, all the physical fitness and discipline and being a soldier, and then you get specialized training to learn practical skills, you learn to DO stuff. Hence the whole snark line that NCOs (non-commissioned officers, or "non-coms" as the Jem'Hadar O'Brien is described in "Hippocratic Oath") like to snap back with, "you don't call me 'sir,' I work for a living!" Education is academy, which is like going to college (hence why ROTC is a thing), it's "soldier with a degree." You do basic training, but it's less emphasized, because your focus is book learning, history, strategy, diplomacy, learning to command, "bigger picture" kind of stuff. Desk jobs, behind-the-line administrative stuff. Yes, they are also soldiers (obviously, if you're on a giant mobile weapons platform like an aircraft carrier or a starship, you have to be a soldier), but they're meant to exercise authority and delegate, not do the actual work. Tough decisions that decide other people's fates. Being an enlisted officer does NOT mean you have less skill, experience, or authority, it means you have a different TYPE of skillset. And while technically, any commissioned officer "officially" outranks even the highest ranked NCO, it's almost always understood that is a command structure formality, and in terms of day-to-day operations, your upper level NCOs are the final word. The flagship of ANY fleet will have FAR more enlisted and NCOs than full commissioned officers, Starship Enterprise or otherwise. This is also why Julian is an officer: having a college degree automatically gives you officer training eligibility in most military structures, and having a full medical doctorate probably gives you even more preferential placement. In the Star Trek universe, you can apparently get your full medical degree AT the academy (no separate medical school), so either way, you'd be an officer when you graduate.

I do like the character work episodes and it seems to be what they were going for but they kinda fail. I don’t know what they were going for with Dax and Bashir? Kira and Sisko are just awkward.. her dumb fuck Billy goats gruff story.

Some Engineers in Starfleet do go to the academy, those are the one like LaForge where they have a full rank. But some, like Chief O'Brian, are enlisted personnel, they did not go to the academy and have their own ranking system.

I think the thing about Kira and her religion is yeah she believes, but also her God‘s literally exist. They may just be wormhole aliens but they exist. So they can actually have an effect on her people.

Generally, i want to like this one more than i do. kira and sisco are good, but most of the other character interactions seem too forced and unearned. kinda awkward. End of the day, i would say C+ ish.

I don't hate the episode. Its fine. I can see why people wouldn't be a fan, or maybe even actively dislike it. Its a solid C for me, which alongside the rest of season four so far isn't great. But C as the floor is still a miracle.

As an atheist, I find it a little strange that you guys aren't onboard with the idea that one of the entire points of this show is a deconstruction of organized religion altogether. The "religion stuff" in this show isn't there to tell you "god exists!". In contrast, it's there to point out how religion is purely a construct of man, and that men can make gods out of almost anything. From the thunder, fire, and powerful animals our ancestors marvelled at, to wormhole aliens over the skies of Bajor. The show makes it crystal clear that the Bajoran religion isn't "real" in the sense that there is no actual "mysticism" around it. The viewer knows that the Prophets are the stuff of quantifiable science. However, it then asks the question, "What happens when YOU know something isn't 'real', but a lot of other people are True Believers?". Does it matter if it's real to them? How can we handle this clear conflict? Whether you are religious or not, I think you would agree that a question like that is one of the main issues driving our world today, and you yourselves have said that Trek is always at its best when it takes our world, and finds some allegory in a sci fi. I really hope you guys watch the rest of the series with an open mind when it comes to the "religious stuff". I absolutely hated this plot thread when I watched the show when I was younger and found it boring. Now as an adult though, all I can do is marvel at the sheer balls the show had to imply that the Pope and his Cardinals are just falliable dudes who are more concerned with personal power than making people's lives better. All they had to do was slap a nose ridge on it to get it on the air.

Wait, so if Sisko has seen all the baseball games, and enjoys showing them to people like Kira to see their first time reactions... are you guys Kira and we're all Sisko?

There's a lot of non-action episodes that also couldn't be done without the Defiant, such as Rejoined. There's no way you can get all those characters in a runabout and do the same script. So disliking what the Defiant does to the show or wanting it gone is short sighted imo.

Also, it was not a mistake or bad writing. Its not that engineers don't go to the Academy. NCO's do not. They are not those sorts of officers, unlike bridge officers or something like that. I think I got that correct. You can be in Starfleet and not go to the Academy basically. I believe this has always been canon.

I understand your gripes with this episode. I share some of them. I can say that for me, this gets better upon rewatches. Its above mid, I think, and for me, this is what B-Tier is made for.

Non-commissioned officers (i.e. NCOs, and other enlisted personnel) go through training, but they don't necessarily go to the Academy. Now, they could perhaps take a course or a piece of their training at the Academy, but they would not be graduates from there.

Pros: Armin Shimmerman and James Cromwell give it their very best The idea is pretty good Cons: No one can be bothered Sooooo many tropes in one episode Chakotay's panpipes keep playing, a-coochie-moya Bashir is a big creep Worf is such a square The Mandalorian and Grogu is a terrible film, what happened? It was so dark I couldn't even see it!

So, we've reached Sea(C) - level for DS9 this season. Honestly, I was pretty much bored 5 minutes in. To your point, I think the Defiant has already become a crutch (or albatross) for the show. I might have enjoyed this more back when it first aired, but watching it now, I really felt it was meh.

#DeepSpaceFine

No surprise the writers couldn’t be bothered to give Quark any kind of retort to a bargain-bin labor theory of value. What’s hilarious is that they don’t even acknowledge supply and demand, which even Marx accounted for when talking about market prices. But it would make sense if the trader operates in a command economy. The Dominion tells you what to make, how much to make, and what you’re allowed to sell it for, then dresses it up in a labor-based formula. Accidental communism-as-totalitarianism argument. Sounds about right to me. Thankfully, Deep Space Nine’s regular writers usually wrote Quark with a little more intelligence than this.

John Ordover was the editor of Star Trek books when the episode aired and while the shows were on the books had to all be one off stories to not contradict the shows. David got involved in the books after the shows were over and the books were to serve as season 8 of TNG and DS9 so they could have continuity and stakes.

Ira agrees with you guys he didn’t like the episode either. For me the episode was very much like a season 2 episode with the Kira being nervous around Sisko and the Dax & Bashir stuff and I agree with most of your points. The original vision of the episode was an action heavy Defiant under water story but budgets didn’t allow that.

I think the "lack of urgency" thing comes down to direction around special effects. Obviously, the actors can't see that failing forcefield, and that carries over into their reaction. The scene with Bashir closing the door to cut off the toxic gases...he isn't hurrying at all! It's just bad direction.

Whilst not one of the greatest episodes, I think there is a lot to like with the character developments but your mileage may vary. I enjoy that Worf is still learning how to be an effective commander and that Kira and Sisko end the episode with as friends. Besides that, the episode is ok.

Did you skip an episode?

I think when Chief says that engineers don't attend the academy he's talking about the non commissioned guys, in which case, yes, that's correct, the academy is for officers, the non commissioned personnel have another training route.

Most personnel in Star Fleet didn't go to Star Fleet Academy in the same way most personnel in the US armed forces didn't go to West Point. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

Worf was captain briefly in "The Emissary" with K'Eylhr . 😭

"I don't care, I like my version better". This is my philosophy too. I'm saying this all the time about both Star Trek and Star Wars.

I agree with Josh and Alex their problems would go away if they never traveled to the Gamma quadrant, up the wormhole/kill the worm hole aliens. In fact even better, to resolve their problems with the Romulans/Klingons they should just mothball Starfleet, go back home and become Isolationists. Space is dangerous, they shouldn't be out there. There's peace of earth, leave the risks/exploration/discovery to other races. Star Trek should just become a show of father and son camping trips in Yosemite.

Not a great episode, not a terrible episode.

Well, I didn't come down as hard on this episode as you guys, but watching with you did make me cool on it. Probably went from an A to B. I definitely did not remember how long we are on the Defiant for the first half. By the way, are there examples of fiction/media exploring religion and faith that resonate with you? Something that did make you care about it? I think good fiction can make you care about things that you don't normally care about in real life.

Huh, surprised you didn't like this one more. I don't think it's a masterpiece or anything, but I love all the little character vignettes. My interpretation of the Dax/Bashir scene is not that it's opening anything back up, but that Bashir has matured and moved past that, so they can now look back at it and laugh about it.

Chief did not go to the academy. That's why Bashir outranked him a few episodes ago despite being like 10-15 years his junior. They both get full training, but Bashir got trained to be an officer, and a full department head, Chief was trained to be canon fodder.

It’s not a joke. You speak truth!

Also its Colm Meaney's birthday today

Yeah Chief is enlisted and didn't go to the Academy. They talk about it in DS9 quite a bit actually, even brought up in Hippocratic Oath

Sorry for being that guy but wouldn't the Defiant be crushed like a soda can the moment the force field failed?

I have to admit the action in this was much more impressive 30 years ago. The first time I saw this I thought it was amazing, now it felt mid. The original script was about an ocean planet but it couldn't be made on a tv budget.

Duller than I remember. Some nice bits but the whole episode lacks tension.

Man this episoe is a snooze fest.

Well I guess you could keep your headcanon about almost everyone being an Academy graduate when it comes to the Enterprise because as the flagship it presumably only accepts the best of the best of the best. But don't forget there were even civilian scientists like Keiko serving aboard. So there are some NCOs and civilians but we can just say that these few exceptions proved their worth in some other way (like O'Brien being a decorated war hero).

What's even more annoying than religious people responding to things from the perspective of their religion is Atheist people who react to any sort of religious content with eye rolls. It's like saying "I don't care if you're gay just don't do this gay shit in front of me" but religious. Just cringe.

Chief saying everyone on the Bridge is dead was kind of a callback to TNG Disaster. I think it was Riker who said everyone on the Bridge is dead, and Chief happened to be one of those people. Also ironic, because one of the main plot points in Disaster was Chief and Troi having faith that folks below deck were not in fact dead...

Kira praying I think was more for her than Sisko, it was her cope. I think the point of the scene was just to show her being vulnerable in a scary situation. Not too much below the surface, but I don't think there was intent for that either.

I get that you aren't a fan of the religious aspect, and if you compare it to real world religion then that's valid. However, unlike literally any other religion, we know that (in star trek universe) The Prophets do exist. The Bajorans aren't worshipping some unknown deity, these are real entities that are actively looking out for and caring for Bajor. They are also outside of linear time so they are basically omniscient. I don't know if maybe just looking at it from that lens lessens the obvious irritation you have for that aspect, but the religion and the emissary aren't really going anywhere so may be worth a try?

I'm not surprised there's confusion between the difference between NCOs and Academy graduates. Even if there were nods to it in terms of rank and such, it was never made explicitly clear Starfleet operated like that throughout much of Trek, so it'd go over the heads of non-military watchers. In fact, this was the episode where I realized that was even a thing. I'd imagine low-priority starbases like DS9 would have more NCOs, whereas the flagships of Starfleet would primarily have career-minded Academy alum.

Also, the comment about Sisko being a manager refers to the line about going to four shifts a day. Kira initially says that to Sisko while she's trying to keep him conscious on the Defiant, and then Sisko brings it up at the end of the episode like he thought of it. I think Kira smiling there is supposed to be because she knows why he thought of that.

Well they were not enthusiastic about Wrath of Khan, they hated Hunt for Red October. I guees they just don't like submarine war scenarios. So please do not ever watch the greatest submarine movie of all time "Das Boot", It would be such a waste.

This may be the worst DS9 so far this season, but it is still better than all Voyager season 2 episodes so far except for "Projections" and "Non Sequitur".

Oh boy. You have to accept Julian will always be in love wirh Dax. Regardless if she ever returns his feelings or not. You have to accept that Sisko is captain AND the Emissary. If not you will complain all over. And it will be in vain.

The officer to NCO ratio (Non-Commissioned Officers) aboard a modern US Navy vessel is about 15% officers to 85% NCOs. Commissioned officers are the folks who graduated from Annapolis Naval College while the NCOs are guys who walked into a recruiting office and asked "where do I sign?". Once they pass recruit basic training, they get specialized training for whatever job they'll be doing on the ship. However, they won't rise to the rank of an officer. That's where O'Brien and his engineers are. They joined Starfleet and began serving aboard ships while getting their training on the job, like an apprenticeship. The folks who went to Starfleet Academy learned command, diplomacy, laws, which fork to use at fancy dinners.... that kinda stuff

Josh: “Is enlisting in Starfleet like joining the military, where you can just do it?” Back in Shadowplay in season 2, Chief has this convo with Jake. O'BRIEN: When I was 17, my father even sent a recorded audition to the Aldeberan Music Academy. JAKE: What happened? O'BRIEN: I got in. It was the happiest day of his life. I didn't know how to tell him I didn't want to go. So two days before I was due to leave, I went into town and signed up for Starfleet.

Not as good an episode as I remembered — the tension goes slack too many times. But I do love the malfunctioning-starship genre in this franchise, so I'm still on board. And I really appreciate that they took some time on the station at the end to lock in the character stuff they sprinkled throughout the episode. Good instincts there.

The Defiant addition to the show primarily was Ira Behr going, “We can’t just take on the Dominion in these tiny Runabouts.” But there were also the network notes of “It’s Star Trek. Get off the station more.” And the Defiant does offer them the chance to do more “traditional” Star Trek episodes. And, IMO, when you’re doing 26 episodes a year, there’s nothing wrong with adding that kind of story into the mix. The Defiant is just one more tool in the show’s storytelling tool belt.

NCOs in Star Trek do NOT attend Star Fleet Academy which is like going to West Point or the Naval Academy at Annapolis- instead they would have attended Basic Training and specialized training like they do in the US military now- where every branch goes to Basic Training/Boot Camp and then people go to Infantry school, tank school, paratrooper training etc. In Star Trek the Basic Training is in harsh places like the desert, oceans and then special training happens on Mars or other parts of the Solar System

A little bit of a downturn in the quality in my opinion, especially as the guys have been spoiled by so much that came before; but overall it's a solid episode with some nice set pieces that once again showcase how amazing DS9 is at two-character interactions: Quark and the Karemma, Sisko and Kira, Bashir and Dax and Worf and O'Brien all shine in different ways.

LETS fucking Go!!!!