UNCUT - Indiscretion (DS9 S4E5) | Star Trek Journey 380

Dukat kindof reminds me of Aeneas and legendary figures of Ancient Rome. Nominally loyal to family, having feelings and emotions, but at the core, everything else can be swept aside in "duty" to his empire. Aeneas was a man who learned how to give up love because conquest and empire was a far more important and noble goal (In this story, Aeneas becomes the ultimate founder of Rome through his descendants). Dukat feels like a guy who also nominally favors things like friendship and family, but you know he could cast them aside if he had the opportunity while still thinking himself noble and serving "the greater good."

Kassidy is a great character but they sometimes write her to just be an arrogant condescending prick. She was in the wrong so many times and it's Sisko who has to apologize? I know it's supposed to sound clever by having her outwit Sisko in every exchange but how she talks to Sisko is so unnecessary

Villains being real people with hopes, loves, desires, and fears is a scarier thought than cartoon villains who twirl their mustaches.

In regards to Dukat, I don't think him being an irredeemable tyrant and loving his family are mutually exclusive. While it certainly doesn't excuse his actions or anyone else's, Cardassian society plays a big part in molding that cold calculus many Cardassians operate under. Obviously there are some like Natima Lang who don't give in to those pressures, but most do. And remember, in the not too distant past, children were starving on Cardassia. That can create a mindset where maintaining any sort of comfortable position at any cost is just a given, and lends some credibility to Dukat saying that protecting his position was protecting his family. It's not like Earth where the social safety net is so strong nobody "falls through the cracks". All that to say, I think in isolation Dukat does truly love his children. He probably even loved Neprem, though he's delusional to think she wasn't just doing what she needed to in order to survive, or had fallen prey to Stockholm syndrome. He's certainly a narcissist as most powerful cardassians are, and downright delusional thinking the Bajorans should be thanking him and the cardassians for the occupation. I think this is a case of these 2 very different facets of his personality clashing. In most cases, Dukat loving his children presents no issue, especially since Cardassians pride themselves on devotion to family. But Ziyal in particular threatens his position in this very Machiavellian society, so Dukat the dad and Dukat the political figure come into conflict. I genuinely believe he spared Ziyal because the former just won out. He's still a piece of shit, but I don't doubt he loves his children. As for Sisko, I do have some sympathy. I can see that when Kassidy mentions moving onto the station, his mind could start throwing visions of finding her buried under rubble like Jennifer after a klingon or dominion attack. Now one could argue "doesn't he worry about the same happening to Jake", and yeah he probably does. As much as he's miss him, part of Ben probably wants Jake to go back to Earth to study, if only to be far from somewhere as volatile as DS9. But for the time being, Ben is Jake's only parent, so he has little choice. Obviously Kassidy has a ship and can leave in a hurry if things get dangerous, but Jennifer's death still clearly haunts him. His concerns are perfectly valid, but my God man, could you try to communicate that. Really good episode, and your thumbnail game is on point.

At this point in the series, Dukat's character is him trying to tell everyone, "I'm not so bad." I won't say if it stays that way.

It's fun watching new viewers try to figure out what Dukat really is like. Not so bad? Secretly good? Just completely full of shit? I won't tell.

Maybe others have said it, but I missed it if they did. But Alex's saying "the Voyager" sounds weird because for whatever reason, while they usually say "THE Enterprise" when referring to those ships, they almost unfailingly just say things like, "We're going back to Voyager" on that series. And unless I'm mistaken that is how ships are usually referred to in the Navy world.

This is a very astute analysis of Dukat, Josh. You really have to look askance at his declaration that he was in love with his Bajoran mistress, because the Cardassians were oppressors. They were murdering Bajorans. They had absolute power there. So, any "relationship" a Cardassian would have with a Bajoran has to make you wonder about the level of coercion going on, and whether the Bajoran woman is just paying lip service to the idea, because it is saving her life, and providing her food and shelter. We shall see whether DS9 follows up on this.

All around, a very fun episode. A for me.

I have trouble understanding why some folks don't like this episode because it "humanizes" Dukat (for a lack of a better term). Yes, he's essentially space Hitler, but isn't the fact that this episode makes you question those feelings even slightly about him just good character writing? This is DS9, we just had an episode talking about shades of grey and this is just another example of that. On a personal note, when I watched this episode for the first time all those years ago, I just assumed that Dukat had that daughter killed off screen.

Redemption has nothing to do with what a person has done in the past. Redemption is what does that person choose to do going forward. Even Hitler could be redeemed if he chose to be a completely different person going forward who would never do anything that he did in the past. Redemption is a personal choice by someone to acknowledge what they did was wrong, take accountability for their actions, and commit to not doing thise things ever again because now they know better. Now if you mean redemption in the eyes of the audience, then we're talking about forgiveness. The choice there lies not in the perpetrator, but in ourselves. Would most people forgive Hitler even if he turned over a new leaf and became Jesus? Probably not. But that's a problem with the people being unwilling to forgive, not with any act being "unforgivable." And then there's the issue of trust. You can choose to forgive someone for committing atrocities even if you know they haven't changed and will never change. But you don't have to trust that person. People tend to think that forgiveness is the same as turning a blind eye. It's not. You can acknowledge that someone is evil and never trust a single word that they say, and still forgive them for what they've done. If individual acts were truly irredeemable and unforgivable, then you shouldn't have any problem believing in Hell, because that's what Hell is. Hell is eternal punishment for something that you did that was "unforgivable" or "irredeemable" which means that you deserve to always pay the price for what you've done, no matter how you might have changed since committing that act. This is why I don't believe in Hell because I don't think there is such a thing as irredeemable or unforgivable. And any God who would hold us to that sort of standard is unjust. Therefore we are unjust if we hold each other to those same standards. What is universal justice? How far should the punishment go for an "irredeemable" crime? If Hell exists, should someone like Dukat or Hitler be punished only so long as they still believe that what they did was right? Or should they be punished for all eternity long after they've realized that what they did was wrong, thousands or millions of years after they committed the act? Should anybody go to Hell at all no matter how bad they were? What's the point of punishment unless if offers you the opportunity to learn from it? If your child raped or murdered somebody, would you ever punish your own child for that forever, and never forgive them no matter how much they tried to make it right? Would you never try to understand why they did it, or how they changed, and instead just blindly condemn them with no hope of redemption? Or should an attitude like that only be reserved for the greatest crime of all: not liking Star Trek VI?

Some staff writer's Seinfeld script got mixed in to this episode's b plot. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

I had someone recently say to me, with a straight face, that South African apartheid was good for South Africa because the sanctions forced them to build self-sustaining industries. It is the identical scenario to Dukat claiming the occupation was good for Bajor. Even if we look at only the economic affects of sanctions in the long-run, it was a net loss for the country. But if we include the inhuman treatment of 40 million people for decades, it obviously wasn't a good thing. Classic "Nazi shit". The perfect thing for Gul "space-Hitler" Dukat to say.

Dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but the laughing between Kira and Dukat after he accidentally stabbed his ass was genuine. Both actors found the scene so absurd that they couldn't help but laugh out loud. It really added to the authenticity of the scene

Ziyal, Dukat's daughter, was 13 at the time of the crash. This is 6 years later, so she is now 19. The actress was 23.

Marc Alaimo never missed. Fantastic scenery-chewing character actor. Of course, it doesn't hurt that the man looks like the devil even *before* they start applying all that Cardassian makeup. Such swagger. So evil. Interweaves charm and menace like a proper demon. Love it.

Great episode. I love the look Sisko gave Dax that said dude if you were still a man lol

And oh yeah, I wholeheartedly agree: Avery Brooks’ facial expressions w Dax and Kassidy, at Quark’s, with Jake, were all so good and hilarious.

Dear God, Nana Visitor’s laugh is so precious and contagious!

I dipped out of DS9 after season 2 back when it aired, so I don't really know anything that happens after that. I feel like the whole idea that Kasidy is a Changeling is so good, that I will be extremely disappointed if she turns out not to be.

The boys are in for such a journey

It’s not so much humanity but cardassian loyalty to family. All the character have layers no one is one note in DS9

It’s episodes like this that highlight the writing differences between this and voyager.

In order to sign up for DS9, Michael Dorm demanded he not have to get into his makeup just to stand around in the background. So, if he's not involved in a scene or story, you just don't see him.

I believe in your reaction to Hypocratic Oath, you asked for to see the water cooler gossip. I feel that Dax, Bashir, Quark, Jake and an off camera Nog collectively just said Hold My Beer..

Jedi's great sin for which it will never be forgiven is it isn't Empire. It's a really good movie that was better in the original version before they tampered with it, and it's still the second best SW movie in my opinion.

Dukat has done horrific things but so have many Klingons (including Kor in TOS): Mass killing of innocents. And I love a redemption story, so when I watched this in the90s I was with Alex. But now, years later, I watch the same episode and think “Nope”. But they write him in such a layered way! He is such an enjoyable villain to watch. And he is rather like Both a mirror and an opposite to Sisko. Dukat is very bad with an occasion hint of light. Sisko is good with an occasional hint of dark. I felt this first in Maquis, where we leaned Dukat had a son. But Dukat is self serving and Sisko is not. Sisko can genuinely love others and I feel like Dukatloves himself more than anyone else.

Sigh... Return of the Jedi... Go find the 2-Disc DVD LIMITED EDITION... on disc 2 in the special features you will find the "original" theatrical version... from before George spoofed and spun all sorts of extras into it. Compared to the theatrical Episode 4 and 5 .... Episode 6 theatrical looks like it was made by a B rate special effects company on a shoe string budget. I believe the "Special Editions" have significantly increased the entertainment value overall, but especially for Episode 6, because it was soooo bad. It felt like a TV episode of Knight Rider or The A-Team in space. Somehow, George made 2 films that blew away the competition, then made a 3rd film with none of the magic of the first 2. It's almost like something modern Disney would make.

The reason why you will never trust Dukat is the same reason why I will never trust Dukat. Every single thing that he does, no matter what he might say, or how he might try to spin it, is ultimately completely self-serving. There is not a truly altruistic bone in his body. I also agree with Josh in that I don’t think that Dukat even actually loves his own children, Zyal, that Bajoran woman he was with, or anyone else. He might THINK that he does, but just like Mirror Universe Intendent Kira, he doesn’t actually understand what love is. What he thinks is “love” is that they all serve a purpose for him. Everyone in his life, he uses. And even though I actually agree that Bajor was better off for having endured the occupation, I mean that in a metaphysical sense. The occupation itself was absolutely wrong and evil, and enduring it was terrible. But I believe that if you zoom out far enough in time, and look at catastrophic events and evil things like this through the eyes of God or some form of universal omnipotence, I believe that all of the bad and adversity suffered in the universe ultimately serves a greater purpose. That many lessons cannot be learned collectively as a species without those events. Or just like Tapestry, that many of the lessons we learn within our own lives cannot be learned without enduring trauma, adversity, pain, struggle, and imperfection. Basically I believe that all evil, no matter how hard it may fight against it, is ultimately designed to serve Good. That ultimately evil cannot do anything that is outside of the ultimate will of Good. This is because the will of Good is love, creation, and growth. And growth cannot occur in a perfect universe; creation cannot come without destruction; and love cannot be understood without experiencing it's opposites. This is the whole point of experience, choice, free will and duality. Tolkien even uses this philosophy as the base of all of his work in the Simarillion. But obviously, Dukat does not mean this AT ALL in the shuttle when he tries to justify the occupation to Kira. Dukat actually believes that what the Cardassians did, and therefore what HE did, (which is the real reason why he’s even bringing it up,) was RIGHT, and therefore, the Bajorans should be thankful for HIM and how "benevolent" he was. THAT is messed up beyond belief. But this makes sense for Dukat’s character because everything I just described is the definition of a true narcissist, and that’s what I think Dukat is. That’s also what makes him feel charming, multi-layered, and interesting, because that is what skilled narcissists actually do. Everything they say and do is calculated to convince you of what they want you (and themselves) to believe. Narcissism is pure self-service with no understanding of actual love. Which is ironically why they desire “love” or at least what they think love is, (which is usually approval, validation, or worship) above all else. Again, Intendent Kira is another example of a narcissist, although hers is more exaggerated and cartoony, whereas Dukat is more like what you would see in an actual person: much more convincing, covert and subtle. I also believe that all evil that we see in the world ultimately all stems from self-service at the expense of others, with narcissism being the purest form of that self-service. Self-service is the opposite of universal love, to the point where you can define “good” vs “evil” as “universal love” vs “self-service.” Narcissism by that definition, is therefore literally evil at work in its purest form of self-service. This is why many villains in popular media end up being narcissists. The writers never intended to write a narcissist. They just intended to write a character who was evil. But in intending to write one, you inevitably write the other, because on some level, we all intuitively understand that self-service, narcissism, and evil, are all the same thing. Now, can a narcissist ever be redeemed? Technically ANYBODY can be redeemed. It doesn’t matter what they’ve done. But what redemption requires is TRUE change. Even the worst, most evil Narcissist ever can be redeemed if they actually one day managed to stop being a narcissist, realized that what they did was wrong, and committed to never doing any of those things again. If they ever stopped serving self, and started truly practicing love, they would essentially be a new person. That person should then be judged on the person they eventually BECAME, not who they were in the past. To be redeemed, all you have to do is start choosing love instead of destroying it, take accountability for your actions, and realize evil for what it is. The reality is though that most narcissists will NEVER do this. They are so hard wired, that this concept is completely foreign to them, and they won’t listen to anyone who tries to tell them otherwise. So for all intents and purposes down here, we have to regard them as “irredeemable” even though they are only irredeemable to the point that they keep choosing irredemption. To be redeemed, all one has to do is choose it, and start living a redeemed life of love instead of self-service. We should wish for everyone to do this instead of worrying about whether or not certain people or acts are “irredeemable” or “unforgivable.” Ultimately, there is no such thing, as both redemption and forgiveness are just a choice, either by them, or by us. It’s just rare that we see true redemption in this world because most people never make that choice and truly change like that. And Dukat has certainly not changed like that in this episode. He's still trying to convince us that everything he ever did in his life was right.

I love this one, i give it A.

Enthusiastically believing Eddington's blood test in the season 3 finale. Now continuously claiming Cassidy is a changeling. Casting doubt and generating paranoia, Alex. Exactly what a Changeling would do, Alex.....I hope Josh is administering blood tests before each episode watch.

watching this episode, i couldnt help but feel proud of the cast and crew for creating such amazing tv. its gotten to the point where i fully trust the show wherever it wants to go

I really don't like the idea that someone is so evil that the only way to be redeemed is to kill them. That just makes characters feel flat. Especially not after just seeing Jetrel.

I'm sorry but they did Sisko SO dirty in this episode. First Dax suggests his girlfriend live on the station in front of her WITHOUT consulting him. Then Yates overreacts when Sisko is a little hesitant at first, especially in light of his last serious romantic relationship ending traumatically. Then all his friends gaslight him into thinking it's his fault for her getting angry. And finally Yates says "let me worry about my safety" when that's such a slap in the face to someone who, again, lost his wife to the Borg. Of COURSE he's going to worry about your safety, especially as you get closer. Really pisses me off.

I think it's telling that Ziyal says she'd rather die than live life without Gul Dukat and THAT is what causes him to spare her....

Kira did imply to Dukat that if he really wanted to kill his daughter, he wouldn't have told her anything. Great writing <3

In this week’s episode, Dukat puts the ass in Cardassian.

It is rare for a show or movie to pull off a villain that I deeply love and, even at times, root for. I don't know what percentage of it comes down to acting chops, raw charisma, and writing. Some mixture of those creates this perfect toxic cacophony that is irresistible. Only Dukat and a few other characters in Game of Thrones managed it for me. And Vader of course, but he exudes pure aura, it's almost cheating to be that badass.

Just realized that whenever I picture Levar Burton directing, I picture him wearing the visor for some reason.

Great discussion about Dukat! This is exactly why he's my favourite 'villain' in Star Trek. There's just enough there to make you like him but then you catch yourself and remember everything he's done. Fantastically written character.

Fun Facts: Roy Brocksmith is a fairly old Star Trek-Berman era alumnus by this point. He started all the way back in TNG's season 2 episode, Peak Performance, as Sirna Kolrami. And Armin Shimerman also appeared in that episode as Bractor.

Yeah I always thought the Breen looked like the Leia bounty hunter outfit from Return of the Jedi

Jake for the Win! Only scene and nailed it ;) The solid run for the fourth season continues. I very much enjoy this episode and the exploration of character dynamics. Tension, humour, emotion, this episode pretty much has it all. With regard to the Breen, the first time I saw them I immediately recognised the helmet from the Star Wars prop cupboard :) Look forward to hearing your thoughts at the end.

Sisco’s face during Quark’s advice is comedy gold.

As far as talking about ROTJ I ❤️ the opening in Jabbas palace! Luke’s plan is stupid, but it’s heisty and fun and it’s intriguing.. Back in 83 we didn’t see Jabba until now.. he was a complete mystery digital Jabba ruined the reveal

As funny as the rock up Dukat's butt is, the fact that he was able to laugh at himself in that situation did a lot to humanize him and make his inability to shoot Ziyal at the end believable.

Sometimes I like this episode, sometimes I am waiting for”get through this to blank episode” this time was good with you guys

I gotta say, your discussion about Gul Dukat and his sincerity was fantastic. You both have a great read of the character, and it's great to see you so invested in a character I think is an all-time great on television.

Just another great episode, and the reason is because I just love all the characters on this show, and they are settled in on them. they can interact with each other. This is missing for me on Voyager still for me. but I am watching, and hoping that changes for me.

Back in 1995 Star Wars was just a Blockbuster Trilogy like Back to the Future or whatever. It wasn't the bloated monstrosity of a franchise it is now.

It is always a treat when Marc Alaimo or Andrew Robinson's name adorn the opening of the episode. But especially so with this episode. Indeed, all his Season 4 episodes are real bangers.

Who had Dukat getting pegged by Kira on their bingo card?

Apparently, DS9 had terrible luck on location. Whenever you see them on location, assume it's 100+ degrees, because it always was.

Imagine if Darth Vader had secretly had a kid, and later saved its life. Crazy.

Josh is the changing.

Guys, they showed how Odo can give the illusion of eating and drinking. You can't catch a Changeling that way.

Gul Dukat taking his half-Bajoran daughter back with him to Cardassia? It’s a big step.

One of the reasons those old late 90s WWF episodes of Raw and Smackdown look so damn good is because Vince made a point to film them on actual film. At a time when it would have saved a ton of money to use tape he had the foresight to want to make a “WWF Network” for years, long before streaming. He wanted it to be a “premium” cable channel like HBO or Showtime. So when the streaming version of the Network came along, the episodes were all there in high quality. A few were lost for whatever reason, or just segments were, and you could tell watching through when that happened because they would switch to scans of backup tapes that looked awful in comparison.

Dukat's having a face turn? Seems like a big step for his character to me.

Alex is gonna be so surprised when Josh reveals he's a changling...

To suspectf Kassidy being a changeling is exactly what the Founders want. We are everywhere! Muahahaha!

You know hindsight being 20/20 they probably should have evacuated the civilians from the Saratoga. I’d rather spend a few weeks floating around space eating MREs as opposed to a date with a Borg Cube and it’s cutting beam. Live and learn.

Road trip with Hitler!

“To make a Rejoined trailer or not to make a Rejoined trailer?” Josh right now? 🤔

there will never be a "perfect season' of Star Trek. There will always be a few stinkbombs. However, DS9 seasons 4-7 come very close.

I get the feeling you're going to love this. Dukat is a compelling character, to put it mildly.

Still gotta watch the reaction, but I have to say — the bit about your old set was so endearing. The idea that you had to haul a couch into place every time you filmed says a lot about your dedication to Star Trek. I'd probably switch to something like Firefly if I knew I'd be moving furniture every time.

Let's fucking go!!!