UNCUT - Hippocratic Oath (DS9 S4E4) | Star Trek Journey 379

Words really can't do justice to how good this show gets this season. And it's just the start.

Great character relationships? Odo-Quark, Bashir-O'Brien, and Sisko-Dax. But you forgot a HUGE one: Jake and Nog! BFFs!

Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but the pips on O'Brien are his new ones to show what he is enlisted. This is the first episode where they new pips appear.

Alex and Josh "It's really disappointing to see O'Brien being this bigoted to the jem'hadar" O'Brien "And you're taking THAT with you??" Also O'Brien "Gentle was bred out of these Cardassians a long time ago" Definitely the best Bashir/O'Brien episode thus far, certainly where their story is the A plot. I know a lot of people are coming down hard on one side or the other, but I'm a little more torn. I get the criticism that Julian was being naive and as the senior officer should have prioritized their escape, though on that count when O'Brien worked out an escape plan, he did tell him to leave. Bashir had no weapon and couldn't have meaningfully contributed to the escape, so at that point he's only risking his life. I'm not so convinced that things would be worse if the Jem'Hadar were to be freed from the white. As pointed out, there were significant doubts about whether they even should take a cure if it existed, but even if they did and wanted freedom for themselves and other Jem'Hadar, they'd become enemy #1 for the dominion, and the dominion's forces would essentially destroy themselves as the addicted and freed jem'hadar fought it out. Could they even organize themselves beyond the squad level without the Vorta? Could they even sustain themselves when all they know is warfare? Either way, after all the losses suffered fighting their own kind, the loss of ships, economy, organization, I don't see a few scattered bands of jem'hadar pirates being more of a threat than the dominion itself. Still, I understand chief's concerns, and the other jem'hadar seem to respect that he doesn't trust them. Also at the end of the day, it's unlikely that Julian would have developed a cure on that planet. The only real chance would be to convince them all to come back to DS9, request asylum, and put the others in stasis while he studies a way to cure their addiction. Of course they'd never agree to that. I personally believe, and it's a common fan theory, that Goran'Agar was deliberately designed by the Founders to have no addiction to ketracel white. Bashir himself said he may never have needed it. The initial crash may have been engineered to put him in a situation where he realized he could live without it. There's clearly a programmed loyalty to the founders in their genetic makeup. The kid in The Abandoned showed reverence to Odo immediately even though he would never have seen a changeling before. I believe the founders wanted to run an experiment to see if the Jem'Hadar would remain loyal without the white keeping them in line, and Goran'Agar gave them the answer. Also I always felt they could have waited around for a bit and taken him off the planet once he finished putting his men out of their misery. He already killed one of his own men to help them escape. Seems ungrateful to just leave him there to rot. Goran'Agar is definitely the most thoughtful Jem'Hadar thus far, and Scott MacDonald did a great job selling that. I love the scene where he's talking about alien religions, and it's like he wishes he could believe in something that comforting, because he realized they are nothing but tools to the Founders. And of course that last exchange with O'Brien was just perfect. I think they struck a good balance of making us feel bad for the Jem'Hadar because Goran'Agar does seem very reasonable and professional. He's not some mindless killer. But the rest of his men counterbalance that enough for the audience to know on some level that they're always going to be soldiers/weapons first, and people second. Not as bad as borg for instance, but it's hard to see reaching the kind of understanding you would with klingons or romulans or cardassians. Finally, I do like that they ended the episode with O'Brien and Bashir's friendship still strained. I remember years ago having a day long argument with a buddy about the stupidest thing. Nothing as serious as here, we were arguing over what defined someone as being rich/upper class. Absolutely zero reason to get so invested in it, but by the end of the day we were pretty sick of each other. We both cooled off by the next day, and a week or so later our conversation took us back into that topic, and we both agreed right away that we weren't doing that shit again.

Despite the ‘A’ plot, I most remember and admire the Odo/Worf interactions, cause that shit hits home: I share Odo’s annoyance at another manager sticking his nose into my division and wanting to tell him to “fuck off, I don’t report to you”, but knowing he was the Golden Child who the executives liked and was always selected to head new projects and I had to just smile and take his passive-aggressive shit. Wow, didn’t the pain still lingered.

Interesting how season 3 DS9 is tracking season 4 TNG. If we say Way of the Warrior is DS9's Best of Both Worlds, it's followed by TNG Family (another tear jerker focusing on generational male character growth, based on a civilian setting with occasional visits to the ship / station., like The Visitor) . S04 E03 TNG was 'Brothers' - Medical in an android way - Lore's betrayal of his father and brother, killing his father is a bit like O'Brien blowing up Bashir's equipment - nuclear option to prevent another chip being made, which would cure data of his life-defining desire to be more human like curing the ketracel addiction. There are medical ethics involved in both - addressing a condition with unpredictable wider consequences.

No one is going to talk about that O’Brien is now gay?

I find it rare that television and movies handle medical morality and healthcare ethics well, and for me, this episode is not one of those times (context, I'm a nurse). The key issue is that Julian and Miles are not dealing with patients in a controlled medical setting. They are prisoners of ruthless enemy soldiers during an active war. No one knows they crash-landed. Their captors are armed, unstable, and only temporarily being restrained by Goran’Agar’s authority. That completely changes the ethical situation. From a healthcare ethics standpoint, informed consent is a major problem here. For consent to be meaningful, patients need to understand the risks, benefits, alternatives, and possible outcomes, and they need to be free from coercion. The Jem’Hadar do not really have that here. They are biologically dependent on Ketracel-white, conditioned from birth to obey, operating under military hierarchy, and being influenced by their leader’s desperate hope that they can be freed from the Dominion’s control. Even if some of them “agree,” it is questionable whether that consent is truly informed and voluntary. There is also the issue that refusing treatment is a patient right. If a Jem’Hadar refuses to participate, that refusal should matter. And in this specific case, the consequences of withdrawal could very likely be fatal or lead to violence. So this is not a simple medical experiment or humanitarian rescue. It is an extremely unstable, coercive, high-risk situation involving enemy combatants who may not be capable of giving meaningful consent under the circumstances. On top of that, Julian is not only a doctor here. He is also the ranking Starfleet officer, which means he has a command responsibility to Miles. His first priority should be escape: protect Miles, preserve their own lives, and bring back whatever information or biological samples they can to DS9. From there, Starfleet could study the situation under controlled conditions and potentially use the discovery in a way that helps the Federation and maybe even the Jem’Hadar. Yes, they stumble onto something huge: a possible path toward freeing the Jem’Hadar from Dominion control. But trying to force that breakthrough while being held captive by armed enemy soldiers is reckless. Julian lets the medical possibility override both informed-consent concerns and his command judgment. So I think Miles was basically 100% correct. He may not have fully understood the larger strategic significance of what they had found, but he understood the immediate reality better than Julian did. Julian was thinking like a doctor chasing a cure, but in that moment he also needed to think like an officer responsible for his subordinate’s survival.

Given how much you enjoyed this one, I strongly recommend "Bridge on the River Kwai" (1957), starring Alec Guinness, when you have a couple hours to spare.

If you like all three plots in an episode sharing a common theme, there's definitely more of that to come.

paramount rly making me angry ... they have no "pic in pic" mode anyways but it was able to use a rightclick extention to enable it, but now they blocked it ... now i need to watch on chrome cause that has an extra extention to add a picture in picture to paramount... do they just hate their paying customers ? makes it so hard to watch with u guys

Julian really likes making Miles uncomfortable in his sexuality.

I looked up the "most appearances in any Star Trek show" question. There seem to be some differences in how people count it, but everyone agrees top number goes to Michael Dorn (and it isn't even close), then Colm Meaney. If you count Majel Barrett's voice appearances as well as physical acting, she comes in either third or fourth, or if not then it's Kate Mulgrew and Patrick Stewart who have a very close episode count. Those all did 200+ episodes, and everybody else comes in under 200.

I didn't have a problem with Odo not cluing Worf in, because the whole thing is a matter of roles and boundaries. And Worf needs to learn this. The security of the station is no longer in Worf's jurisdiction; it's Odo's. Odo has no reason at all to clue Worf in unless Worf has been assigned as part of his security detail. Worf needs to learn how to stick to his own job instead of micromanaging other's jobs. So why didn't Odo just tell Worf? Because it's none of Worf's business. He absolutely shouldn't have told him anything unless he had a good reason to.

The Hippocratic Oath was referred to before in Voyager's "Heroes and Demons." The Doctor said 'The only reason why I do not kill you now is because I have taken an oath 'to do no harm.'"

I'm not sure that Quark is fully aware he's working for Odo...

This season is very strong in the first batch of episodes

Not knowing if Julian could have found a cure denies the viewer the luxury of hindsight. It forces us to sit in the ethical choice as it was for our characters in the moment.

You guys met a Vorta. The woman with gill ears who pretended to be chased by the Gem Hadar when the Siskos, Quark and Nog were camping.

Also, this is the one time O'brian's rank and position in the command structure is explicitly stated. Thus he finally has actual insignia for his rank as a senior noncom, as opposed to a half pip that actually applies to the commissioned officer track. Its an important detail that took a DECADE to get sorted out. Crazy.

I fall entirely on O'Brian's side, here. Idealism is fine and good...but not when it interferes with survival. The Chief is looking at this in a characteristically nuts and bolts way: We do this, we live. We don't, we die. Bashir meanwhile, head in the clouds, putting being a healer before his duty to escape.

This is the type of episode that people wish Voyager did more of, as part of "using it's premise." That premise being having the Startfleet and Maquis crews be like Bashir and Chief here as Idealism vs Pragmatism. People wanted the crews to bring different viewpoints to various moral quandries of the week, especially regarding how far they should go in order to get home.

The Vorta are the "Oh no, the plot!" aliens from "The Jem'Hadar"

Bashir was in my first watch many Years ago my least favourite Doctor. (Star Trek Enterprise was in this Time the last Star Trek Series). But he is great on rewatch. :) The funny thing is, now Dr. Crusher is my least favourite from the old Era. (Yeah i liked Pulaski more).

I might be wrong, but i thought Dax was in one scene, the staff meeting discussing the Klingons.

You guys assign me a tone of voice that is not even close. In any case, I will stand by my take. They are at war and need to survive, and here comes Bashir acting like a college sophmore stopping everything to get into deep philosophical debates, risking his own life, O'Briens, and the safety of anyone the Jem Hadar might kill down the road. Its not realistic for this debate to happen while being held hostage, and Obrien was right in everything he was saying.

They FINALLY figured out how to denote Chief's enlisted rank insignia! Love it! I really hope that, going forward, the enlisted corps gets their representation in the Trek franchise.

I think you missed Odo's good intentions as well. Had he maybe treated Worf not as a resource to play but a temporary recruit in the sting operation, his involvement could have still helped in the end. But there again you run up against character as that is incredibly not Odo's style. It was a little out of the ordinary to get Quarks help, and that had to have been a risk in his mind already.

So much discussion about Dax not being in the epsiode when she was discussing the Klingon war in a early scene.

Another superior DS9 episode

julian looked especially handsome this episode. B tier!

When you mentioned getting to see the gossip, I immediately thought of Lower Decks when the young officers are gossiping in Ten Forward. Not our main characters, but I think it still counts.

The analysis keeps bringing me back. I've seen this a number of times and love the episode, but never actually connected the themes of good intentions leading to bad consequences. Spot on gentlemen.

Ronald D. Moore did an uncredited "polish" on this script. Director René Auberjonois requested Scott MacDonald for the role of Goran'Agar.

Great reaction! I love this episode, even though I hate seeing Bashir and O'Brien argue. You can't blame either of them for acting the way they do. A great episode which develops our characters and their relationship and also expands the worldbuilding as we see the potential for some sort of 'good' among the Jem'Hadar.

Goran'Agar really made this one. Excellent gravitas beyond a simple soldier, made you really root for the bad guys. Oh and I think O'Brien and Bashir had a few scenes..

Love this episode. Love this whole season. Love everything that lies ahead.

Always fun coming back to DS9. I remember enjoying this episode back in the day but I’d forgotten how good it was. I like how the heart of the disagreement between Bashir and O’Brien comes down the same value for human life and loyalty to their respective oaths. Obviously Bashir cleaves to the referenced Hippocratic Oath of the title. All he sees are sick people and lives he needs to save. O’Brien on the other hand is driven by his time as a soldier, in particular protecting himself and his men from the enemy and never leaving a man behind. I love the parallel this conflict has with our mutant Gem’Hadar and his addicted troops.

This was always a fun one for me. I liked how Worf needed to be established that HE IS NO LONGER SECURITY, THIS IS NOT THE ENTERPRISE, which at the time worked for him and the new TNG audience. Plus Worf just is the best foil for every character, he bounces of the personalities so well. Plus I always love the arrogant moral young doctor against the seasoned non-commissioned war-time expert fighting with clear ideals. Strong show all around.

I like how this feels like a classic TNG episode but with that very distinctive DS9 style. Not derivative at all, just feels very in the spirit of classic Trek. The ethical discussions are always some of my favorites

I think a lot of us remember DS9 for its Big Swings, but "smaller" episodes like Hippocratic Oath really showcase just how much the writing has evolved. When you compare this to the Storyteller and Armageddon Game, there's just a world of difference. Instead of an external conflict thrust upon O'Brien and Bashir, the conflict is anchored between them. It's not about dealing with "The Plot", but about a fundamental difference in character between these two men, both of whom are right in their respective ways. The show is also now really leaning into using all of the lore they've set up in order to supercharge their worldbuilding. Need a story where Bashir wants to help the natives but Obrien doesn't? Let's choose to make the natives the Jem'Hadar. Need a throwaway meeting scene just to get everyone in the same room? Let's make it about the Klingons expanding their territory to give the world more colour. It's so exciting to see the show finally find itself.

Worfs new job as "strategic operations" officer is kind of nebulous. But I guess it means he handles all sorts of military and intelligence type stuff regarding the other powers (Dominion, Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, ...)

You’ve seen the Vorta before in the S2 finale with Eris and then in “The Search, Part 2” with the one that poses as a Founder in the simulation that the crew experiences.

Colm Meaney does a lot of Trek episodes, but you are forgetting Michael Dorn. He did nearly every episode of TNG and is now on DS9 as a regular.

I know what I'm doing after work

Sex Score board. No scores. One comment. All you haters have to admit that the Sex Scoreboard is growing in maturity. Not once in any Jem Hadar episodes have we made a joke about white creamy looking liquid going into the the throat of the Jem Hadar. Not once....

I like how we just know Dax is the gossip queen of DS9 without being shown lol

Honestly the ISB/RHW shade of days past was water off a duck's back to me, because I knew it'd be impossible to sustain 😂

Always enjoyed this episode and the moral and ethical debate built into the story. It also has a great B plot for Worf and his adjustment to the station. Season 4 continues its strong start. Great hearing your thoughts, guys.

Good episode though its not the one I would recommend after Schindler’s list. I think both Bashir and Miles were a little wrong in this one, O’Brien for taking charge too much instead of working the system, Bashir for being a little too doctor optimistic though it fits him and the Jem Hadar didn’t understand that not everyone is like him. It feels a little less plot motivated in a way unless the plot was, we want Bashir and Miles and Odo and Worf to disagree. But Sisko is great

I never thought that Quark and Odo were working together in this episode but now that you mentioned it… I gotta go back and rewatch some other episodes

I really appreciate how Goran'Agar had the character development here that we as viewers hoped we would see out of the Jem'Hadar child in "The Abandoned." Given how hopelessly that episode ended, it helps knowing that Jem'Hadar ARE capable of more. Which just makes them all the more tragic.

Terry is actually in this episode for one scene. But I'm sure you figured it out by now. At least she got that paycheck.

"Good intentions lead the road to hell..." Love that

I love it so much when Star Trek hard-commits to taking both sides of an issue. This reminded me of the "do we help the alien girl" discussion/argument in Picard's quarters in Pen Pals. No one is entirely "right," but ultimately circumstances force their hand. I also respect that the Chief/Bashir bromance isn't quite healed by episode's end. Like you said, the consequences of their intentions.

Worf butting up against Odo's style of security was probably the most obvious plot for him upon joining the cast, and I'm glad they did it as soon as possible. Leaves window wide open for other things going forward.

From what I’ve heard, George Lucas’ comments as a director were along the lines of “Could you do that again, but better?”

Vorta was Eris, showed up in season 2 finale and season 3 debut as that other dude

Thomas O'Malley Alley Cat

Isn't Tom O'Malley the red tomcat from Disney's "The Aristocats"? A favorite of my childhood.

Odo not telling Worf is also perfectly within his established character. He already doesn't like having Starfleet over his head, he's not going to unnecessarily divulge information to Worf that he doesn't need to. He told him "I'll take care of it," in his mind that's all Worf needs to know to stay out of his business. That's one reason why I love this show. By and large, characters stay true to their motivations and established personalities.

The Vorta were mentioned by name in The Search pt 1

I do wish they had made the Chief's position a little more sympathetic. I think that's what they were going for, but he ends up coming off a little closed-minded.

Chief is, yet again, the GOAT.

Aww you should have posted this 2 hours ago when I still had a pizza to eat!

Let's go!