UNCUT - Elogium (VOY S2E4) | Star Trek Journey 373

Watching this late. But just want to say. Pen pals is way better than this.

LOL Alex. Morn is probably the closest you came to being right - but you aren't! Ensign Samantha Wildman has a Ktarian husband back at DS9. His name is quite difficult to pronounce or even spell lol. Sam will be back, though not as often as I'd have liked. Sorry if that's a spoiler... The Voyager crew has, besides humans, Vulcans, one half-Klingon hybrid, Bajorans, Bolians, Betazoids, and of course one Ocampa and one Talaxian (Kes and Neelix). Now a new hybrid is gestating.

"Ya gotta reproduce sometime..." 🤣😂😜

Dammit the Mess Hall is on DECK TWO! Not four, not six!

Long discussion of "Gremlins 2". No mention of Robert Picardo?

Yeah the Voyager was not a long range explorer. It's a science ship but mainly had short term local missions. Id imagine the crew swaps out often (other than the senior officers) and crew size probably greatly fluctuates based on the mission because that ship can easily hold way more than 150 people

These guys talk too damn much during the show! They talk before the show and they definitely talk an ungodly amount after the show. I love watching people react to stuff I've watched or things we watch together, but for heavens sakes give us one talking point in your reaction. Or at the very least a minute or less opening description maybe a hello, then your complete silence for a uninterrupted no ad episode and finally a couple of minutes discussion about what you thought about the episode. Cut the chatter please!

Before re-watching this episode for the reaction I thought it was the worst voyager episode but this time I didn't think it was too bad. Still at the floor for the show for me.

They introduce wild man in this episode and did absolutely nothing nothing with her I don’t even get the point of the guest star

Freaking Neelix was probably on the Island

"Now spread our legs, Mr Paris" and then the Seska jokes... I couldn't stop laughing. 10/10 guys. My sides hurt so bad.

dang, I was SO excited for VOY and now Im sad.. why? its passing by pretty fast... when its over.. its over.. the best of trek is behind you imo. Season 2 has the most stinkers, this one qualifies, but even the worst episodes makes me really miss and love this show.

Yes Neelix jealous attitude is definitely one of the annoying things about him lol. The ride you mentioned, Tower of Terror based on a film of the same name, which is watchable, i think of it as kind of a kids version of The Shining. For me this episode is C.

the season start by stardates should be 6 months ago

the 4th worst rated episode in all of voyager with 5.8 , tied on points with the 3rd worst rated episode thats also a Kes Episode xD there is one episode this season left thats MUCH worse, and then its a long time until the worst episode ever which has a 5.0 xD

In the first voy episode the caretaker when they meet Kes the first time the kazon says right there "why would you want such worthless creatures, they only live for 9 years" what I'm wondering is if she is under 2 years here. How old was she in the first episode where she already looked fully grown and had Nelix as a boyfriend. She must have been like maybe 6 month old or something and Nelix must have met her before that since he already knew about her. Another thing I never got was how is a species able to continue if 2 ppl can only have 1 child. If so it's more likely they must give birth to more than 2 children at a time for the species to continue

Wow. If you guys survived this episode, then the rest of the series should be smooth sailing! There are still a couple of episodes down the road that I think will not be well received by you guys, but there are so many better episodes yet to come! Makes me wonder if this is one you will look back on at the end of the series and think, "Yeah, that was a lot worse than we realized at the time." But it's interesting to hear that you still rank it over many of the early episodes of TNG and DS9. I guess it's hard to be specific about what I dislike when I really just think the whole premise of the episode is a flop. I watch this one and I think, "What were they thinking?!" So the proximity to some alien species somehow sends Kes into early puberty and the majority of the episode is exploring the Ocampa's strange process of procreation all while Kes and Neelix go back and forth in deciding whether or not they want to be parents. The writing was clumsy and shallow and the whole storyline was rushed and not believable. It's simply a boring story that I am not at all invested in. Neelix's jealousy was, in my opinion, the worst that it ever is, so that doesn't do the episode any favors, either. You did help give me a better appreciation for the good in this episode, but I stand by my statement that this one is better off forgotten!

This episode is easily an “E”. It’s terrible. I can’t even bring myself to watch it again with you guys. If I was stranded on a desert island and could only take the first two seasons of DS9 or the first two seasons of Voyager with me it would be DS9 in a heartbeat. Voyager was driving me nuts at this point when it first aired. Thankfully it eventually improves.

That look Janeway shoots Chakotay makes me wonder. I like the existential ideas in this episode. I don't have children, never wanted them but I've known people where the ticking clock has been a huge issue in a relationship. This is another S1 holdover so The 37s likely would have built into the ideas presented here, of people building families and procreating not on a starship. I like getting to know more about Tuvok. I probably didn't enjoy it too much when it came out, but it was a decent episode.

Alex: "Wait a minute, do the _(Ocampa)_ make no _(Biological)_ sense??" Us: "Welcome to Voyager"

I like this episode, but then, I liked "The Child" too, lol.

I've always liked this episode, probably because I've always been pretty occupied by relationships. But this episode hits especially now that I am a mom of two non-verbal special needs kids. Overwhelming is a massive understatement. I often wonder if I did the right thing. They need far more than I can give them. Then again, if we all thought that way, none of us would ever reproduce. I don't think anyone is ever fully prepared for what they are getting into. Kids teach you things about yourself that would have never learned otherwise.

As for old shows that had a connected universe, Star Trek wasn't the first. I highly suggest watching anything by Norman Lear: All In The Family, The Jeffersons, Maude, Archie Bunker's Place, etc. I think those might have actually been the first to have sort of a cinematic universe thing going on. Plus, they are some of the best tv ever made. They are some of the funniest and some of the saddest things you'll ever watch. Plus, they are still relevant today despite being made about controversial 1970s social and political issues. Nothing ever changes.

Weird relationship between Neelix and Kes. They have never shown any affection toward each other except uncomfortable looking hugs until this episode where there was a brief kiss. Super annoying Neelix episode keeps it a C.

Who is hammering?

Neelix wasn't being abusive, again, he was just being insecure. He's an insecure character. Jealousy is directly tied to insecurity. Abusive people are insecure, but not all insecure people are abusive. They're just unhealthy, especially if you get them triggered like Neelix here. If you buy into attachment theory at all, when it comes to relationships, people are either secure, like Kes, and I'm assuming Josh, or they fall into one of three types of insecure attachment styles; Anxious Preoccupied, Dismissive Avoidant, or Fearful Avoidant which is a mix between the two. And yes, all of these insecure attachment styles are survival mechanisms we learned mostly from childhood. They control us from a programming/survival instinct level. They're all rooted in fear. Specifically fear of rejection, fear that we are a burden/unlovable/defective, and/or fear of abandonment or betrayal.. Anxious Preoccupieds are the ones who struggle the most with jealousy. Anxious Preoccupieds are desperate for their partner not to leave them, so they constantly do something called "activating strategies." Basically, they have to constantly reassure themselves that the partner is still interested and isn't going to leave, because they don't know how to give this reassurance to themselves. They usually do this in unhealthy ways that they don't know are actually controlling. For instance, these are the people who scroll through your phone to make sure you aren't cheating, even if you are the most loyal person ever and have never shown any signs of cheating. They don't realize that this is actually a trust issue with themselves. These are people who learned at some point that they can't trust their own perception, because for some reason, everyone they care about most eventually leaves. They don't realize that usually those people leave because the very activating strategies they are using to keep the other person "protected" and "close" are actually pushing them away. Avoidants have the opposite style, so this doesn't make sense to them. They have DEactivating strategies designed to create distance, not closeness. So instead of jealousy, their style is more "one strike you're out." Or "never get married/have kids/in a relationship to begin with." Secure people recognize both of these strategies as toxic. If you start cheating, creating distance, or playing games with them, they won't chase after you like an Anxious Preoccupied would. Why would they? You just showed them that you're toxic. They know all of that is dumb and will just find someone else who is healthier. They might be like Kes and have patience with you for a while for some of your insecurities, like Neelix's jealousy. But they expect you to eventually grow out of that. If you refuse to work on stuff like that with yourself, they eventually leave. They have boundaries that they're not going to let you cross. In short, secure people make sense. Insecure people don't.

I'm glad they came up with a crazy mating ritual for an alien with just pointed ears. Like they just keep adding more and more crazy shit that I think the writers should have toned it down for someone who still basically looks like a human. Would make way more sense for an alien with a more unique design like mourn or a sheliak or something. Some good scenes here but overall I will continue to skip this episode in the future. I hate Neelix, I don't like the ocampa, and some of the scenes are just cringy and boring. Not an E for sure or the worst episode ever but I'd give it a D

Man, this episode is so crazy. The juxtaposition of the gross Kes makeup and the serious topic of a generational ship and whether families and kids make sense on Voyager. I like the topic of how they should handle families on a vessel that was never designed to accommodate those (not like the big Enterprise and other Galaxy class ships). But I'm a parent myself so I'm a sucker for those topics. But exploring that through hijincks with Kes and Neelix? ew

Things I dislike: bugs, dirt, Neelix being annoying, ....feet. There might have been something to this episode, but it needed some more time to cook and not be a weird mess.

I had a thought listening to discussion and wondering what others think about this. We're hearing J&A react right after their first viewing, and in the context of not knowing anything that follows. Even for those of us who have only seen this once, it's in the context of having seen it many years ago and with knowledge of what the rest of the series brings to the table. And I for one will tend to skip episodes I really didn't like on original viewing when rewatching (simply cause I don't have the time to waste on something "I know" I'm not going to like). I'm wondering if that causes us to remember the high's higher, and the low's lower. J&A seem to tack towards the middle on the episodes that are much loved, and much hated. Obviously with some notable exceptions (I'm looking at you Darmok). This may also explain why some will comment that they originally hated an episode, and then upon rewatch don't mind it. Just musing

Since this originally aired I haven't been able to get the sight of Kes eating insects out of my head, it's seared in there! It genuinely may be the reason I'm a bit "ehhh OK, keep your distance mate" with beetles 🪲

Josh said it himself: Voyager is like microwaved Mac & Cheese! (I like Mac & Cheese as well btw)

Just in case Neelix/Kes wasn't creepy enough, lets reveal that Kes technically hasn't hit puberty yet.

I'm starting to think that, on top of his borderline-abusive relationship with a 1-year old, Neelix has suppressed feelings for Tom Paris.

Not a great episode, but E as some people have said? Absolutely not. It's a C at best, but there's enough redeeming things to make this one re-watchable. Every decade or so!

The Outrageous Okana is fun on the first watch. But every time after that, it becomes more and more obvious how bad it is. It's a Mary Sue. Not only is our entire crew never used, they're also all completely out of character. Does Okana seem like the type of guy that someone like Picard or any of our crew would idolize? No. But the entire episode, all of our crew just worship him until he inevitably saves the day with no involvement from the crew whatsoever.

Tuvok, Kes and Janeway carried this Episode.

The problem with relationships on starships is the judgement factor. You may end up making. a life or death decision based on your feelings for your partner over the good of the ship.

I had so much trouble liking early Voyager but i stuck with it anyway because it was Star Trek. This episode is just so stupid and not even in an enjoyable way.

It doesn't break the streak for me of "Star Trek eps dealing with sex are cringe" but there's lots of specific scenes and moments I like. With Tuvok and Janeway especially.

One of the worst episodes.. Unwatchable. Like Sub Rosa, but you can't even laugh at it. Not the worst Voyager episode, but the first E of the series.

I'd equate this episode similar to Sub Rosa and Masks back in TNG, in terms of weird wackiness of the plot. I don't enjoy this one as much as Sub Rosa, however, I appreciate the swing and how much discussion it prompts in me. As far as Neelix and his jealousy, I wouldn't go as far as calling it abusive, though it may be a semantics issue. Abuse is a very strong word, but Neelix is creating friction, drama and frustration in Kes that isn't needed and actively harms their relationship. His behavior is deeply unhealthy, is how I'd state it. To be jealous is indeed about one's opinion of themselves, partly at least. If you're confident you could find someone else if they did cheat, then it's no big deal. On the other side of the coin though, if you love someone potently, the idea of losing them (even if they can be replaced) is very painful and disconcerting. I get that. Still, the irony there is behaving with jealousy is more likely to result in them wanting to leave you. In fact, that's what happened with my parents, my dad was too jealous all the time, so I have personal experience on how that can fracture a marriage. As for kids, there's a new dynamic at play being on the precipice of lifespan escape velocity (biological immortality). The urge and rush to procreate can more easily be subdued by the higher order brain when it knows that it likely will live for centuries or even longer. Take your time, consider your options, and prepare well. I'm 35 now, and I do want kids, but I'm waiting until I can guarantee them a peaceful, comfortable life. Not necessarily opulent but never having to fear for the essentials. I'd feel like I would owe that much to any offspring I have. I hate mushrooms too Josh. Gross texture.

Haircuts are looking sharp, gentlemen. Reaction was fun, episode was garbage. That said I have softened a bit on it. Not by much mind you. It's still AT LEAST in my bottom 10 Trek eps of all time, and more likely bottom 5, but I'm now thinking 1 DS9 ep yet to come could be worse. It's still hot garbage. I do like the Tuvok scene talking about being a father, and Janeway and Chakotay discussing crew relationships and the possibility of becoming a generation ship were bright spots. Also I can understand Neelix not wanting to raise a child that he'll outlive. Then again, while it's probably not that simple, if Neelix is middle aged and a half Talaxian, half Ocampa child splits the difference in lifespans, it might not be the biggest concern. Otherwise terrible episode. Ocampa lifecycle makes no sense. Seemed heavily implied she would have a single child, no mention of twins/triplets/quadruplets. The pregnancy cravings were pretty ridiculous, Neelix jealousy is super distasteful especially given the age and maturity difference, and the starship orgy plotline is ridiculous. It may no longer be the absolute worst Trek episode IMO, but it's still sharing a list with whatever the worst is. E for "erase this shit from canon"

Painful. Just,... Painful. D for me. Neelix, horrible. Kes, ridiculous. Floating sperm pool in space,.. mind numbing. Save me Mr Wizard.

You have assumed Ensign Wildman's husband is, 1) A character you know on DS9. Voyager left DS9 on a 3-week mission. He may have just been waiting for her. 2) A human, so his wife must have a 9-month pregnancy. I wonder if these assumptions prove correct, or she is simply never seen again? Actually, I don't wonder since I have watched the series several times. No spoilers fools. lol Also Janeway is not married. The clue came in CARETAKER where she asked Mark to go get the dog bed from her house.

A lot better on my first re-watch since it first aired. Not great, but ok. C+

What people are reacting top in episodes like Elogium is partly the bad scifi. This is a scifi audience, that part doesn't bother you as much as long as the story still works. But Elogium establishes that the Ocampa mate once in order to create story urgency but it makes the Ocampa even worse from an evolutionary standpoint. You'd have to make sure every Ocampa breeds when they hit their window and produces multiple children in one go or your population collapses and your species dies.

I do love the themes this episode touch on and the discussion it led into. When I first watched this episode I was about 11 but now this episode goes up a little higher in my book.

Voyager sex scoreboard Some scores but no main crew. We are now questioning the whole Neelix/Kes scores. Almost seems like a a change to no should be done, but stuffin' the sausage (or in Neelix case the mini weenies) is not making a baby. So we are keeping the score. SCOREBOARD Paris – 2 Neelix - 1 Kes – 1 Chakotay 1 GUESTS 2 gold suit random horn dogs in the elevator +1 new The Voyager Ship +1 new Ensign Wildman (prego chick had to look it up) +1 new DETAILS Now we had to make up for a missed score Wildman clearly had a pop-a-top because she is bun-in—da—oven. The Ship got a +1 but really Voyager really got more action than the whole Fin crew in all of season 1. We count it as 1 but it so many “whatevers” pulled of the ship Also, we can't make a call for DS9 yet but we will if we find out the daddy/close/mommy/?anything. God I hope it is Morn. (just to let you know I truly have no idea if this character ever comes back nor do I know if we find out nor do I have a clue if it is Morn so this is not a spoiler or even me trying to be clever I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING)

I think when Ensign Wilman said that her husband was back on DS9, she just meant that he was there when Voyager set off on its mission. She never said that he was stationed at DS9, or even whether or not he was in Starfleet.

Good discussion, guys. The episode gets a solid C from me.

Yo. Those haircuts are looking fresh.

I utterly HATE this episode. One of the worst. It's cringy to know that Kes is basically just now going through puberty but has been in a romance all this time with Neelix. 🤮. Whether they previously "mated" or not they most definitely were in a romance together with at least kissing depicted. Oh and let's make her all sweaty and gross on top of it. Plus more insanely jealous Neelix. Fun Fact: This is the third-lowest IMDB rating in all of Voyager. Hang in there it gets better (promise!).

I honestly think Wildman mentioned her husband was “back at DS9” because that is where Voyager left from for this mission.

This is an episode that sort of justifies some of the Neelix hate, even if I think it is overblown. He is just insufferable here.

Love the Instant Mac & Cheese analogy LOL

Both y'alls hair cuts look good >_> <_<

One thing I just thought of that they don’t touch on: How long is their child's life span going to be? One hesitation Neelix could have had is knowing with near certainty that you're going to outlive your child and is that something you want to face?

Boy I hate this episode. Part of that is the subject matter, part is just a visceral reaction to two performances in the episode. The subject matter is Kes going through the period she can get pregnant. Humans equate the ability to procreate to the process of puberty. This is typically (though not always) done before adult age. Kes has been referenced with the term "child" by her own people in Caretaker. Now was that a comment reflecting her societal status as a minor, or more of the speech of someone talking down to someone they believe doesn't know what they are talking about? We don't know. We don't know the age of Neelix (we did know at the time the age of the actor). That shapes my view of how old Neelix is. So the idea that they have been in some form of a relationship for many, many months, and Kes is still a year old, and is now entering a period she can conceive (again human bias puberty), is completely gross. Than add to that that its triggered by outside forces, gives the impression she isn't yet ready for that stage of her life. That ick, factor gets even worse. The idea that the teleplay is done by Jeri (a woman) ughh. And as one of the two head writers she would automatically have the final pass over any other credit writer on the episode. (Piller might have done a pass after Taylor, as the other head writer, but he isn't credited, and I know you only judge based on screen credit). Then you have two performers..... I normally really like Jennifer's performance, but here, I literally can't stand it. From her physicality, to the tone of her voice, which brings out the reaction I get from listening to finger nails on a chalk board. Its a tonal quality that just causes discomfort and removes me from the episode. Than you have Ethan Phillips, who I have liked in many roles over the decades, and I have a love hate relationship with his character. A Character that I can really, really like, to other times, when I wouldn't stay in the room with the character. Here it falls on get that character off my screen for a good part of the episode.

Remember how fast Starfleet declared the Hera lost in Interface which was a horrid season 7 episode

You know, it just occurred to me. This episode didn't just have a B plot and a C plot - it also had a D plot!

Neelix : "Kid, when you turn 1 you are out on your own and paying your own bills. Get used to it."

I was happiest with my ex! (Who Kes Reminds me of) she wasn’t perfect our relationship was never perfect, but I was soo happy in her proverbial arms.

Think this episodes biggest crime is how it handles Neelix. They really are making him hard to like at times.

another of my first episodes so I have a fondness for this one, its very Trek,

Power Rankings: 1) Pulsar 2) Nebula 3) Blue Lightning 4) Nellix hittin' it 5) Extraneous Expository Dialogue

Another early access? I'm never going to get any sleep at this rate.

Shared universes are an old idea even in TV example Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman circa 1970's and The Universal Monsters shared universe albeit a bit more primitive an example but still a shared universe, I'm sure there's more I'm not aware of.

There’s some episodes of all Star Trek that I still see through the lens of a 14 year old girl. I still love this episode. I thought kes looks gross especially her hands for some weird reason. Cuz puberty is gross I guess lol.

I could care less about the Ocampan Pon Farr. (edit: I could be biased. I have seen too many videos on hatred for the Ocampa. From an evolutionary standpoint it would be impossible for a species that lives 9 years to evolve into a civilization. That's anti-science etc etc) But yeah, aside from that the Ocampa bore me for the most part. D

Definitely an episode that I can say feels very late season 1, I often don't remember much of it but it is a nice touching episode, nothing spectacular. As for the alien situation, makes sense, Voyager is damn sexy.

My backstory here is my 30-year vendetta against this crap episode. But coming into it this time, fully aware what a jankfest it is, I relaxed into it and ended up having a blast. Yes, it's garbage, but it's gloriously insane. Voyager joins a space-sperm orgy and Kes eats bugs and dirt. What's not to like? Seriously though, there are actually some solid scenes here about parenthood (especially from the always reliable Tim Russ), and — for as nuts as her role is in this episode — Jennifer Lien gives a powerhouse performance. This is far more outrageous than anything Okona did and I like it for that alone.

I think I'm seeing double.