UNCUT - Initiations (VOY S2E2) | Star Trek Journey 371

Not sure it's mentioned in this thread: We have seen The Kazon-Ogla and the Kazon Nistrim -- SO FAR -- just two of the many sects. This is (imo) one of the few 'meh' or mediocre eps. A few are worse than this (imo) but most are better and even great or even phenomenal. I won't name any ofc, bc that's spoiler territory. Aaron made this a LOT better than it could have been, yet it still didn't make it above 'meh'. The Kazon do kind of suck compared to other recurring villain-species, and maybe I'm being kind saying, "kind of" lol. I'll say that the idea of the Kazon worked "on paper", but in practice, they don't thrill anyone. One good thing about Voyager is that we don't have to put up with any villain species for long, because none of them have immense territories and Voyager keeps chuggin' along thru the Delta Quadrant.

R.I.P. Aaron

This is only my second watch of this episode. I first saw it over 20 years, and wasn't a fan. I did really enjoy it just now and would rate it a low B.

I think Nog got a bit lost on his way to Starfleet Academy.

C. Flat. Forgettable. A. Eisenberg did nice work, but episode is meh. A lot of Voyager is meh. Its like a post thanksgiving turkey sandwich with only one slice of bread having mayo. I'm happy I've got a sandwich, but I don't want to chew this much...and i've had WAAAY too much turkey lately.

Low C tier. I don't hate this episode, and while I see the point about Chakotay's whole "a man does not own land" spiel to be rather hypocritical BS, I do think it's the best use of him so far. That's not saying much, but punching a member of his own crew is a bad look. Here he's at least trying to save a kid from a bad situation, which I respect. Speaking of reused actors, the guy playing the second in command who became leader at the end, he's played by the same actor who played Satler in Starship Mine. Voyager execs really said "the recastings will continue until viewership improves". But yeah, the Kazon may have some surface level similarities to the klingons, but they're just downright pathetic. The odd civil war notwithstanding, at least the klingons can hold together an interstellar empire and engage in some modicum of diplomacy. Even the Kazon Ogla(same sect as in Caretaker BTW) suggesting an alliance was clearly motivated by "give us some of that fancy tech and we'll be your friends.....maybe". That they had to fight to overthrow their oppressors and then just devolved into gang violence and fighting over scraps just paints them as one of the most useless races in trek. No vision at all. Nice seeing Aron, but the episode is mid at best.

I seem to remember behind the scenes, there was disapointment Aaron was unable to separate this role from his perception as Nog, though, they didn't blame the actor, thinking this might not have been the best casting.

will he be the first Kazon to join starfleet?

If there one thing rewatching this episode has made me realize is that the Doctor was clearly the best character on the show

So when’s the next DS9 again???

Always good to see Aaron, but yeah Kazon’s are pale Klingon impersonations. And is chakotey is only defined by his Native American beliefs

Looking back at this episode now, Aaron's makeup was borderline blackface, like TOS Klingons. What happened to them having no water? Wouldn't they just be standing there in his shuttle asking the replicator for a glass of water over and over again.

The less one makes declarative statements, the more unlikely one is to look like a fool in the end I look like a fool pretty regularly! Oh dammit, famous last words… Cliché much

Ironically I prefer watching the YouTube reactions, but the reason I decided to upgrade is that you two have given me so much entertainment since you started TOS, that i feel that you more than earned it. I still regret not joining the bridge crew when I had the chance, but i also know i would probably be spending too much of my bandwidth. For now , consider me a lower decker.

Nana Visitor actually wanted to play Captain Janeway while also playing Kira. She knew it wouldn't work, but she wanted to do both roles.

I totally missed that Nog's actor was in this episode during my rewatch a month ago... And I was forcing myself to actually watch it fully, without skipping, despite it having a "child" heavy story. For what the episode is supposed to add to the lore, it is more than good enough, though IMO.

A whole 45 minutes where we have to watch the most boring character in Trek to this point, Cmdr. Chakotay at his most boringest. Aron Eisenberg couldn't save this episode.

Everybody always compares these guys to Klingons, but they really don't have anything in common with them at all. Maybe on a surface level with lines like "you should have killed me in battle." But that's about it. Both the Kazon and the Klingons SEE themselves as warriors, but the Kazon are just petty street thugs. Everything about them is gang mentality. The Klingons would not respect these guys. They would kill them for having no honor, and pitifully thinking that they are warriors. I like he idea of the Kazon that we get here: representing both gangs, and children who grew up in chaos like this with no role model other than the system they were born into, who usually wind up in or admire gangs. They romanticize killing and getting killed when it serves no purpose. They glorify loyalty to their own tribe and defending their own territory, when there is no real territory and their own tribe would kill them in an instant. They think they're so tough because they take from others to benefit themselves, but ultimately, they are always just as poor as when they started. They are not a threat, and they have nothing. No one takes them seriously because they are a joke. They are too busy fighting among themselves to ever be a strong unified force to be reckoned with. You asked what the differences are between the Kazon Ogla and the other clans? It wouldn't surprise me if there are no differences at all. These are people who are just constantly looking for reasons to fight and wage war. They look for division and justification for killing and peacocking their strength where none exists. They managed to revolt and destroy their oppressors, but for what? Now they just oppress each other, and they'll probably destroy themselves within a hundred years. This whole episode works as a commentary on just how pointless and stupid gang mentality is. It's just another system that keeps people controlled and trapped, while their ego believes that they are strong and free. It would have been cool if Kar had become a crew member on Voyager. He would have represented people who are eventually able to leave these systems. But the ending we got was great as well. This way he symbolizes those who must still live within the system, but maybe now they have the skills to question it.

When this episode came out I was only watching Voyager, so I was completely unaware of Nog in DS9, and as a result I didn't have the same reaction to seeing a distinctive and much loved DS9 actor playing a different character in Voyager. As far as I was concerned, he was just another guest actor. And he did an excellent job. It wasn't until years later that I became aware of the significance of who the actor was and that it was seen as a negative thing by DS9 fans. Now that I've seen DS9, I can see why it could be distracting, but I'm still surprised it is seen as a negative thing rather than a positive. It doesn't bother me at all... I just think it's neat. Aron Eisenberg did a great job in this role and I think it's fun that they found a way to give him a guest role in Voyager. It would be like if Ethan Phillips played a Ferengi in TNG. Oh wait...

Meh. D.

While fleshing out the Kazon more, it doesn't really make them any more sympathetic. They are still duplicitous and a bit extreme. I do like that we get to see Neelix do something. I think his role in the crew is fairly limited.

This is one I fell asleep in front of the TV watching back in the day.

Kazon ... Klingon ... too many "K" bad-guy races.

Yeah this episode for me has always just been "fine" as well....not a particular favorite but "fine". Next episode is one I like again so look forward to the next react!

"Put the fuckin' kid in the suit!" I laughed so hard when Alex did that.

I like this episode more than I probably should but it is basically Discount ‘The Enemy’ featuring Discount ‘Klingons’ and Discount ‘Nog’ guest starring Discount ‘Patrick’

So, Chakotay takes his bundle on board the shuttle, which gets destroyed. We don't see it with him on the planet afterwards, so it got blown up with the shuttle. Except Chakotay has it at the end of the episode... I guess he could replicated it? He must have, I guess he didn't bring it over from his old ship.

"My people taught me a man does not own land." - Former Maquis who formed to defend their land from Cardassians, also an indigenous character who got booted off his land.

We have Klingons at home

Interesting that Voyager has updated Tricorder and Phaser props from this episode onwards. Guess they had them in storage for a year or maybe they just updated the pattern in the replicator. 😉

The Kazon are intended to be an analog for LA gangs. This episode is intended as an analog for someone failing their gang initiation. It is a shame that the Kazon have so many overlaps with the Klingons, given they are based on totally different things.

I don’t think the Klingons and the Kazon are as similar as many people suggest. The Klingon culture is clearly modeled on the samurai: it emphasizes ritual, a formal code of honor, and structured martial training across generations. These elements shape social status, legal norms, and how individuals prove themselves. By contrast, the Kazon feel more like street gangs or pirate raiders. Their power structure depends on raw strength, brutality, and control over technology and resources. Status is won through violent dominance and opportunistic seizure rather than through ritualized ceremony or a codified honor system. That difference matters when people compare the two as if they were variations on the same cultural template. Calling the Kazon “TEMU‑Klingons” flattens those distinctions and misrepresents both groups’ inspirations and social logic. It’s like calling a pirate's cutlass a TEMU‑katana.

Couldn't he have done that ceremony in his quarters since it was stated it was just a private ceremony? Meanwhile Voyager was just sitting in space waiting for him to return instead of spending more time heading home?

C-. The last 15 Minutes saved it.

See personally, I think they wanted to have a Kazon character we could relate to and sympathize with, so they could flesh out the Kazon, as they weren't really getting a lot of love from the fandom at the time. And who better to do that then get Aron to do it.

Will there be delta quadrant TEMU ROMulams? Someone call Max G…

Im noticing that both alex and josh are having issues with my user name. It's Parzifall. most just end up calling me Parzy.

Also, I think when people accuse Voyager of being bland or mediocre, this is the type of episode they're remembering.

Now I'm just imagining how weird it would have been if, instead of Aaron Eisenberg, it was Wil Wheaton.

It took Nog all year to make that Halloween costume.

Chakotay: "I don't believe I own anything." Also Chakotay: "I joined the Maquis to fight a war over a series of property disputes."

"Oh shit, that's the guy from First Duty." lol, you got me Alex.

I died when I saw how short the reaction & takes were.

Since you said it, it's now not a spoiler. The Kazon were originally conceptualized as rival gangs in this section of the Delta quadrant. Much like the Crips and the Bloods, these gangs battle over territory and initiate children into their ranks with successful acts of violence. If you look at them this way, you will probably not see them as similar to Klingons in any way, shape, or form.

The Kazon look like Klingons who stuck their heads in a dumpster, and after removing it, the leftover garbage stuck to their heads became their hair. Not Star Trek's finest racial design, but I still love Voyager.

Another unimpressive season 2 episode imo. The Kazon really are a shit addition to Trek.

Aron was good to see him in this one, but I did not care for this one. Not one I would rewatch

Aron had to audition for this role. They had trouble finding a young actor with the chops to play it, and called him, but he still had to audition.

So.....if Chakotay couid do his private ritual in his quarters, like he did at the end, why did he risk going off alone in a shuttle in a hostile quadrant of the galaxy?

Being "Klingon-Lite" was always the problem with the Kazon.

Yeah they’re kind of Temu Klingons. Aron is really giving his all, though

I just wish Aron's character's name was Egg

Yeah, as you guessed, they used Aron Eisenberg here only after trying and failing to find a good child actor for the role. And yes, we all totally recognized him as Nog when the episode aired - a fact that apparently surprised the producers. From the book "Captain's Logs Supplemental": "Jeri Taylor explained, 'More people were aware of [Eisenberg's DS9 role] than I would have thought. He didn't look anything the same, but he has a very distinctive voice. It broke the suspension of disbelief and made people say not, "Oh, there's a young man in pain," but, "Oh, it's Nog from Deep Space Nine." As soon as the mind is doing that, it's not involved in the story […] We got the good actor, but we got a recognizable one.'" She and Michael Piller apparently thought in retrospect that it was a mistake to use Eisenberg for that reason. Eisenberg was really pleased with it and had a great time, though, apparently.

I'm quite warm on this episode - the script definitely felt like a rushed draft, but the acting, directing and score are all really good in this. It had potential to be a great episode and it could have been a really good way to improve the Kazon.

Always good to see Vasquez Rocks, the legendary site where Bill and Ted met their doom at the hands of their evil robot impersonators. I think that's it for this episode.

At least they showed Aaron before the credits, I didn’t know it was a DS9 character, I watched DS9 years later and was told that was Aaron. I also saw Voyager before the episode First Duty so I never think of Paris as Larcono. Your assessment was fair. As I am binging Who’s the Boss and Kate and Allie any Trek episode is good

The main Kazon is the legendary bad guy Patrick Kilpatrick.

For me I really don't see a single negative with reusing actors. I think we're in the current media culture I really don't like of this character = this actor and no one can replace them, for me that takes away some of the magic of filmmaking. Marina Sirtis and Gates McFadden are great actors but were not given much so it'd be nothing but a positive to see them play a new character in Trek against type. Just a one episode character in DS9 that has nothing to do with Crusher or Troi, give them a chancd to show their range a bit more, for me that's a lot more exciting than actually getting Troi or Crusher as a guest character on DS9.

Boy season 2 was not off to a good start to me. Chakotay and the Kazon. Two things I really don't enjoy about a series that's already sub-par for me. Aside from that, I know this doesn't matter to some people but this was too derivative of The Abandoned. A child-version of an antagonist race. Yeah, different overall plots but even still. A solid D

After casting, they really missed an opportunity to name him Kog. But good job Kar!

The Kazon reminds me of Outlaw lifestyles of the 19th century, along with biker gangs of the 80s and 90s

So Chakotay is a high ranking terrorist who doesn't want to hurt the enemy or get anyone killed? Not even in self defense? Either Starfleet is bullshitting us about the Maquis or there's some kind of large gap that needs to be filled in with his character

Did Chakotay always have the gray hair up until now and I’m just really unobservant?

Forst time seeihg this, I reacted about the sameway you did when I realized it was Aaron Eizenberg. I have to admit this is the first time I watched it in awhile. Couldn't remember how it ended. This episode wasn't all that memrable.

"People don't own land. Except the land I was putting my life on the line to defend as a Maquis. But, like, not other land." Cal Kestis was a great deep cut. Throwing him in would have made this a better episode. I'll never say no to Aron Eisenberg, though.

I laughed at the length of the video compared to normal. Even Aaron Eisenberg, the Vasquez Rocks, and Temu Klingons can't add enough value to talk about more than a few minutes. It's that meh.

Is this a record for shortest discussion/patron takes? It’s very telling just how meh the episode is.

Their faces in the screenshot are great.

Aron’s voice is just so distinct, even though I think he does a good job at making this character feel different enough from Nog. But it is kind of like if they tried to cast John de Lancie as just a random guest character of the week on Voyager. It would be deeply weird.

Chakotay lost another shuttle what's the counter at 2 now?