UNCUT - The Adversary (DS9 S3E26) | Star Trek Journey 369

Can't wait for the season 4 premiere!

I think they missed that fake bashir swapped the vials

For two guys who complain about sequels and remakes as much as ya'll do, I'm surprised to hear you say you don't value originality at all. You sure about that?

RE originality: Return of the Jedi also copied a lot from A New Hope, with its final Death Star run, but no one really complains about it. And famously, Lucas said the prequels should "rhyme" with the original series. I think the problem with the sequels is that they "reset" the entire Star Wars universe back to repeat the empire vs. rebels plot of the original instead of letting things "rhyme" in a new context, like the prequels did.

Eddington is so dumb, how is he the security officer? If he knows he isn't the changeling, then obviously someone just tampered with his blood sample. And the only person who could have tampered with it is Bashir. Just calmly explain this to Sisko and ask them to test Bashir. Instead, he acts incredulous and says something like, "the real shapeshifter would fight back." Absolutely no situational awareness.

I don't think Josh and Alex mentioned it (forgive me if I missed it) and some people were surprised when I pointed it out in the Discord, but Lawrence Pressman, who plays Ambassador Krajensky, also played Legate Tekeny Ghemor, Kira's "father," in Second Skin. Guess he did such a good job differentiating the two characters that not everybody notices it's the same actor.

First off, everyone talking about Changeling Bashir switching vials, that's not what happened. Look at how he holds it, with his index finger on the rubber membrane the blood was injected through. He was doing that so he could bleed off a little goo and envelop the blood with it to frame Eddington. Also, Siddig has come so far since The Passenger. The subtle way he acts "off" as the changeling is just perfect. Enough that once you know it's not him, you can see it, but not so obvious you suspect anything is off on first watch. Sisko is right that being a captain doesn't really change much. His crew, his assignment, his responsibilities and challenges remain the same. However from the audience perspective, as the character really starts to come into his own, both because Ira let Avery adopt the look he's comfortable with, and also because both he and the writers are finally figuring out the character fully, it's nice to see his growth reflected in him officially joining the other series leads as a captain. Besides "Captain Sisko" just sounds better. I don't personally think his promotion needed a whole episode. I'm happy with the short and sweet scene we got. As for flag officers in other divisions, we've actually had a few. There was Toddman a few eps back who was in a gold uniform, so probably a bigwig at starfleet security. For other examples we can go back to TOS Court Martial. We saw Commodore Stone in a red uniform(Security/Engineering/Ops), and there was another captain present in a sciences uniform. So it can happen, but it's rare. Ever since Heart of Stone, we've known the other changelings can perfectly mimic other people, so it wasn't a stretch to conclude they likely have spies in the Alpha Quadrant. I suppose the first thing they'd need to do is locate a secluded area to regenerate in. Don't want someone finding you when you're a puddle of goup. BTW, the guy who played the Krajensky Changeling is the same actor who played Ghemor in Second Skin. I always thought it was hypocritical that the whole "no changeling has ever harmed another" didn't seem to apply to this changeling destroying the Defiant and everyone aboard, including Odo. But some comments pointed out, there's no reason to think he was trying to destroy the Defiant. He was trying to start a war that would destabilize and weaken the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant as a whole. Once the Defiant attacks and destroys the Tzenkethi settlement, I'd guess the invasive circuitry would be programmed to deactivate, and possibly use the transporters to lock onto and dematerialize anything that could be presented as evidence of sabotage, leaving starfleet successfully framed. However at that point they would have control back and would presumably retreat under cloak, so Odo wouldn't be killed. Gotta say though, the CGI during the fight was pretty bad even in the 90s. Not their best work. What will be the consequence of Odo killing one of his own? Presumably they can't kill him if it's such a taboo for them. Permanent exile? Imprisonment? Going after someone he cares about? Hard to say how they'll react. To paraphrase Picard, they may "have no law to fit his crime". Also beyond what the changelings think of him, what will Odo think of himself. He made a point of saying he's never taken a life, and doesn't even want to handle a phaser. Now not only is that no longer true, but he has to wrestle with the fact he's the only changeling (as far as he or we know) that's killed one of his own. For someone so opposed to killing, it's got to be eating him up. Great finale though. Solid A tier.

"BEST Captain" aft torpedoes fired

**again. Please DO NOT WATCH the beginning music credits of DS9 for season 4 premiere** heavy spoilers.

This was strike number three for the changelings. The first time Salome Jens’s changeling tried using treachery by replacing Kira, the next time the changeling who replaced the Romulan Lovok asked respectfully for Odo to return to the great link, he said no. So time number three this changeling adversary tried using violence to subdue and abduct Odo and force his to return to the great link. Neither of the other changelings used violence against him, if you ask me self defense was justified, his reaction to being linked to without his consent was within reason, if you pick a fight you need to know it can go very wrong for all parties involved. You would think that an experienced changeling that has maybe many hundreds or even thousands of years on Odo should have been able to win that struggle but you realize that there may be a good reason the changelings send their infants into space. The young seem to be stronger then the adults, add to that the arrogance, hostility and lack of wisdom of the young, they may be too dangerous to keep around until they grow up for a few hundred years. Odo was several hundred years early and had not finished the task given to him as an infant, not so different from the Saiyans who were also warlords. When Odo first arrived on his home world only a small group of changelings bothered to greet him. They seemed less like diplomats and more like local security there to keep the riffraff out. They told him he was not ready to join the great link but now that Odo outright rejects them they go after him. At this point their insistence that no changeling has ever harmed another seems like gas-lighting.

Quick note: A Lt. Cmdr. is properly called Commander for short. Same goes with Lieutenant Colonel. Colonel for short. A junior grade of commander is still a commander. A Lieutenant J.G. is still a Lt. Saying the full rank out loud every time is a bit of a mouthful.

ALso, the Tzenkethi is Robert Hewitt Wolfe's stealth reference to Larry Niven's Kzinti, the cat species which guest starred in the Star Trek Animated Series episode The Slaver Weapon. However, he said he did NOT imagine them being a cat species as the Kzinti were, which is disappointing.

I spoke with a filmmaker once, and he had a few rules for what he considered a "successful remake." And one of those rules was that it really helped if the original film that you were remaking was an interesting idea, but the film itself was a bit of a missed opportunity. My example with this would be John Carpenter's The Thing. It's really the second big adaptation of "Who Goes There?" but very fewpeople watch 1951's The Thing From another World, and Carpenter's version, and think "Yeah, James Arness's giant vegetable really captured this story."

Armin was on Buffy and overlapped with DS9 for a bit. :) Armin killed it with his Buffy character.

Any episode of season 3 is better than the bonding there I said it I hate that sour pussed kid. I hated him in robocop 3 and I hate him in the bonding….whew I feel better

It was totally random, but I really liked Josh talking about the changing “floor” for episodes and how that can affect reactions and ratings. Clearly this is something that he’s been thinking about and it’s something I’ve been thinking about for months as well. It’s something I’ve ranted about on here before that I think it’s too easy to become jaded about really strong episodes, just because it may not be the top 2 or 3 in the season that get you really emotional or whatever. The episode floor is going to keep going up and up, so I do think it’s important to take that step back and evaluate from time to time on how far these shows have come. Watch out for the trapping of becoming jaded by so many good episodes and I know you’ll love what’s to come.

I'm pretty sure sure no one was killed because the changelings wanted a full crew aboard the Defiant to complete the frame by making it clear the attack was an official Federation mission.

Someone please do laugh track TOS. (Josh, you know you want to).

I was an Army Guard chief warrant officer. Whenever I got promoted, I would just get a copy of my promotion orders and that's it. No fancy ceremony. Which was how I wanted it and I'm pretty sure everyone knew that. I have to say, because Sisko is a commanding officer, it does seem weird some admiral didn't show up. Then again, DS9 *is* at the ass end of known space. Maybe no admiral wanted to do a multi-day travel just for a promotion ceremony.

There's no way this was based on the Thing when it is clearly based on Among Us.

Attention to detail: When Changeling Julian draws Eddington's blood, you can see that he has 2 test tunes in his hand. When he holds up the test tube with the channeling goo in it, you can still see 2 test tubes in his hand. Pretty good sleight of hand.

On addressing a Lt. Commander (LCDR) as "commander", it is standard protocol in the military. Same as addressing a Lt, Junior Grade (LTJG) as ("lieutenant"). Or a chief petty officer as "chief".

That's the thing about DS9, it's not a static show. People change, get promoted, make both good & bad decisions AND have to live with the consequences, and defy expectations.

Regarding the comment about whether S3 of TNG or DS9 was better: As someone who has been doing their own tier-list as we go; for myself, DS9 S3 episodes all fell into A-C tier for me. Nothing made S or D tier. As for TNG, there were a couple S-tiers, and a few in D. TNG had the higher highs and the lower lows, but DS9 was MUCH more consistent of a season.

I remember getting to this finale and I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if the entire Federation was infiltrated and the ONLY non-infiltrated starship was Voyager because it was in the Delta quadrant?"

Yeah, brand new set for the Defiant, Engineering, and hey lets take is out for a big character defining moment.

Regarding captains in other divisions, I think it is implied that anyone who is a captain of a starship, will be in Command red. Recall Beverly in All Good Things was in Command red even though it was a medical ship. Sulu and Spock as captains of ships both had the white collar of Command Montgomery Scott was a Captain in rank but he was also in charge of building the Excelsior, so it stands to reason that those who proceed into higher ranks in Ops/Engineering or Sci/Med do so in leadership/oversight roles. Bones is another example since he was rank Admiral but also referred to as Surgeon General Emeritus, suggesting a similar rise in administrative function accompanied rises in rank. Regarding this episode, the final words of the changeling was just confirming what was already shown. Recall the Romulan who was a Changeling in the Garak two-parter. And it's going to be a running theme going forward. There was a lot of telegraphing in this episode, notably Bashir's stilted dialog in the Jeffries tube. I think we have Quark has had essentially 3 spotlight episodes this season but been important to other episodes, like when he had to help negotiate with the Karemma. And then he still had parts in other episodes, like Facets. I think he is used as much as possible for his role in the cast/show. Jadzia was really great in the beginning. I feel like Sisko was given the promotion because he has both a starbase and a ship as part of his purview. He's proven himself. A promotion is deserved. I don't think season 4 hits its stride without season 3 helping to get it there. Sounds like Josh wanted another appearance of Admiral Nechayev to give Ben his promotion.

Season 3 of DS9 is assembling the full skeleton of the show. Then Season 4 adds the internal organs. Re-watching Seasons 1 and 2 it is clear that DS9 was intended to be closer to TNG, just with altered dynamics. By this point the show has become its own distinct show.

Since this was an 11th hour change of story from a cliffhanger bridging seasons, Odo having to kill another changeling wouldn't have been included in the original story. (I know this because that original story is still ahead.) Money was not an issue in terms of changing the story. Also, Ken Marshall as Eddington is a real bonus here. Love his body language throughout.

Josh, to be fair to you, the Bajoran homeworld was referred to as "Bajora" in at least one episode of TNG or S1 DS9. As far as Odo's abilities as a shapeshifter, by Changeling standards he is, at most, the equivalent of a teenager who has been figuring things out for himself.

Dad Sikso: S. civil Sisko: A. Commander Sisko: B. Captain Sisko: ?

Eddington's good name gets dragged through the mud. Justice for Eddington!

Good, solid, enjoyable episode. But now I can't wait to get started with S4, when Peak DS9 begins. Oh, there will still be a few duds among the 26 ep seasons, but outside of those the overall excellence and consistency just goes through the roof. So excited!

DS9: "Suffer from success" ^^

I hoped you'd enjoy the DS9 take on The Thing. S from me. In the past few years i've fallen in love with most Rob Zombie films, especially The Devil's Rejects. Even though no horror can top the original Halloween, the remake is also in my top 100 movies.

In retrospect, there probably should have been a Starfleet Admiral there to promote Sisko.

One thing about that box set as I understand it is that it's more compressed/a bit lower quality than the original standalone season releases. There is a video about this DS9 set specifically on youtube. How much of a real effect....no idea, don't have this one to compare myself only the original season releases so maybe not a real issue to you.

Also, it's funny how you both were like "Oh, it's so obvious Odo doesn't sweat" but to me it would have been plausible if he did react to heat like that, just with his looking more amber colored to match his liquid state look. Plus, we've seen him kind of 'melt' once or twice in the past when he's stressed out.

I tend to agree with Josh about the originality thing; I value how good it is on its own much more than whether or not someone else 'did it first'. Some people, when they bring up Hunger Games, immediately go "Battle Royale! Battle Royale!" and, sure, there's similarities, but I don't care. Also, I don't understand why that one bothers some people so much, yet they're probably fine with the entire genre that is 'the Western'. It's okay to be a genre film, but it's not okay (for some reason) for the Hunger Games to exist in a world where Battle Royale already existed. That never made much sense to me and felt very arbitrary. Not to mention many other genre films that exist and are obviously similar to one another as well.

Screaming at the telly that you didn't notice Bashir switching the vials.

The Tzenkethi are one of the 9 big races in the Typhon pact. A book series of 8 books playing after ds9/Voyager. I recommend every fan who finished both show to 100% read them. Tzenkethi are cool

Not much to say that hasn't been said already. I adore The Thing references, and it was a very solid episode overall. As I said in the past, I don't judge episodes based on their placement (finales, etc). If I like something, I like it, if I don't I don't. And I loved this episode! I am going to give this an S. Grudgingly. I was thinking A+ but I think this earns an S Catagory.

I can't believe you've been spoiled about Eric!

Originality is (almost) impossible anyways, I agree Josh. It's about crafting your own original spins to concepts that may have been done before you. Creative works are always to some extent derivative. Also, Alex, I literally said "okay" same as you, when Kira was up next for the test. Lmao. We're terrible aren't we... As for the episode, absolutely awesome. Ice, The Thing, you name it. It's a mystery (with atmospheric horror) and woven within the DS9 Dominion narrative seamlessly. Congrats to Captain Benjamin Sisko!

That was an enjoyable reaction! 🙂 Glad you could end the season on a good note. But now I have to wait for quite a while before I get another DS9 episode reaction... 😭

It's supposed to be the enlightened 24th Century, yet they still seem to have a ridiculous (presumably) over 21 drinking rule in place. Poor Jake ;) I always forget that this is the episode that Sisko gets promoted, too. I think this is a super episode. The tension is set for next season and the potential for anyone to be a changeling. Yes, I'm sure many of us had already presumed this could be the case earlier in the season but the writers address this here and confirm. Glad you enjoyed the episode. Can't believe I have to wait a whole week before we get back underway... man, the time will drag ;) Look forward to hearing your thoughts in full.

DS9 sex scoreboard No scores. Here is the final board at the end of S3 The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 Bashir 3 Sisko 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Jake 1

Wait, someone's coming you say? Wonder who that is 🤔 Great reaction!

The Adversary is one of my personal favorite episodes in DS9 (my most beloved ST show). Combination of The Thing and The Alien of sort really suits here with darker music and tone that what is to come would not be all sunny all good like Star Trek usually do. Really glad that you did not hate the episode :-)

@Alex & Josh I know, I know: You told us again and again that you're gonna experience the Star Trek franchise the way everyone else did in the past, but after watching the DS9 Youtube reaction of Jen Murray, I'd like to make a suggestion regarding the first episode of season 4: One of you should close his eyes (but listen) while the other one watches and listens during the intro/credits. This could be funny and satisfying for all of your followers.

Last Jedi was a farce. S03e26 was great

I think a 6 year old could come up with a better episode of Star Trek than Aquiel.

Sisko definitely changes for the better when he grows the beard, Avery Brooks was basically forced to grow hair and shave his beard because the studio didn't want him to look like his previous big role as Hawk in Spenser: For Hire and its spin-off. They also thought it made him look too "Street" for a Starfleet officer and Ira basically came along and just said fuck that, you can look how you want to. Avery is very obviously much more comfortable with this look as it is the way he prefers to look in his personal life and it definitely makes his performance more confident.

We saw a gold admiral just a few episodes ago.

Welcome Captain Sisko I’ve always felt I’ve been an outlier for this episode. I love this one. It’s a small scale story with big implications for the future. “We’re everywhere” it’s not a cliffhanger but confirmation of what we expect putting the characters on the same knowledge we have.

We finally have a Captain. I am so glad Trek doesn’t have a laugh track

This was a fun watch. I refuse to believe no Changeling has ever harmed another. They've done nothing but harm Odo every time we've seen them.

WTF is an op? From FB op is original poster.

First thing, I’m wondering if everybody’s on the defiant who’s in charge of the station? They got like one Bajoran major who’s like under Kira?

The colour of blood comes from the metal that the blood's haemoglobin is based on and the collour it turns when it bonds with oxygen,. For example, human haemoglobin is iron based and iron oxide ir red. Vulcan/Romulan blood is copper based and copper oxide is green. I don't think that it has ever been stated what metal the haemoglobin in blue blood is based on, but cobalt would be my guess.

Just FYI, there’s a really good animated TV show called “Gargoyles” that features both Keith David & Jonathan Frakes as main characters (with Marina Sirtis, Kate Mulgrew, Michael Dorn, Nichelle Nichols & Brent Spiner as recurring characters and Colm Meany, Levar Burton & Avery Brooks popping up for 1 shots)

Josh: I don't care what the actors think of the show. Also Josh: Armin says it gets good in season 4!

Ira from behind with the lead pipe!

Reaction #369? Triple nice. Also, I like this episode. Not much else to say on the matter. Its good.

Becoming a Captain and even an Admiral in the other divisions besides Command is certainly possible, we just don’t see it on a starship (or a space station) except very rarely.

Hold on, in "Where Silence Has Lease," Pulaski specifically said she wasn't a bridge officer. SHE LIED TO US!

Dunno' why, but thing I like the most about this one is how they gave this two-time, walk-on, by-the-book needler Eddington character some actual, y'know, character! Given how antagonistic Odo was towards his very presence at the start of the season, now them being almost chummy in the Jeffries tubes, quite the turnaround for him. Meanwhile, on Monday Night Raw this same airdate, the main event saw Shawn Michaels defeat... Gus Kantarrakis? Dear God, Nitro can't get here soon enough.

Mid-week finale! Next week will be lonely.

I always thought this was a weirdly slow episode for a season finale, but I also liked that. It's nice to have time with our characters and not have to RUN! BECAUSE THE UNIVERSE IS ON FIRE!! TO BE CONTINUED!!! And the back half was way more tense than I remembered — great pacing, direction, musical score, plot twists, everything. Nice to end the season on some paranoia and existential dread. And with that, congrats on officially finishing the prologue! Nice of them to lump it together in one box.

I assume he was promoted both because the station is obviously of extreme strategic importance and because he commands both the station and the Defiant.

Considering how much you go on, and on, and on, and on about "The Bonding" (sentimental clap-trap), I would say you're right about it being in the eye of the person watching.

Wow! What a shocking opening statement from Josh and Alex: “It is with mixed emotions that we record this, our final Commander Sisko reaction. The last year has been the most demanding and rewarding of our career. We can only hope that the future will hold even greater challenges.”

Receiving rake in the military is simply orders coming through. The ceremony is simply that, ceremony. The pip was probably picked up in the station's commissary (aka store).

1. I often don't think you guys pay close attention. Then Josh pulls out Sisko wearing his dress uniform in MOVE ALONG HOME. 2. Three for three seasons. No "To Be Continued" or "Part 1" DS9 Season Finales. The Producers have said they generally liked to leave themselves room to change course between seasons. 3. Dear Alex, Sal-O-May Jens. 4. Give people a pass on when DS9 gets good. It is hard to pinpoint because it keeps getting better. 5. THE THING was a remake of THE THING FROM ANOTHER WORLD (1951). The writers listed the 1951 film as an inspiration. 6. It has been a pleasure watching Season 3 with you gentlemen.

Oh Captain, my Captain. Finally. A G-rated version of The Thing isn't exactly setting the world on fire, but that's okay. S4 will do that.

This is (don't say it) where Deep Space Nine (please it has to stop) starts to get good! (post deleted, IP banned)

Without seeing the reaction, I know we have 1) No Jem Hadar, 2) No cliffhanger ending. 3) A Sseason finale. If Learning Curve was an “S” this should be a “SSSS”

Whoooo-Hooo!

Lets Fucking Go!!!!!