UNCUT - Family Business (DS9 S3E23) | Star Trek Journey 364

I like this episode but that scene with Rom and naked Moogie was deeply unsettling

Quark's objection to what his mother was doing being "it's the law" is he is going to be held responsible for her actions and she is dragging him into a fight he is unprepared for,does not want, and he has no way to win. There are times when the guys demand to be told and not shown.

I think the clothing taboo is to parallel the same thing on Earth here. It’s just about control. Society telling women what’s acceptable for them to wear or not wear and then having men enforce that is about men having control. It’s the Ferengi equivalent of “You can’t go out in public unless you wear -A covering for your hair so no other man can see it -An upper body that’s covered from chin to wrist -A skirt that goes to the floor -No pants ever Lots of insulated societies on Earth have very strict rules about what women can wear partly to control what they can do. If you’re wearing a floor-length skirt, you can clean and cook and chop wood and feed the goats, but you can’t escape by riding away on a horse or climbing a nearby mountain or swimming away in a river, and you certainly can’t outrun someone in pants. With it being perpetually raining on the Ferengi home world, the women can’t go outside without getting wet and chilled, because it takes clothes to protect them from the elements. When they are outside, it’s easy to tell from far away who’s not wearing clothes, which will let you know right away that a Ferengi woman is out and not at home where she belongs. I think it’s really just about control.

Nicely done on threading the needle on discussing it while dancing around not getting cancelled.

This is what really surprised me about your reaction on Prophet Motive. Let's forget about the humor since, like you said humor is subjective. But put that aside and some day, go back and watch it. Hear me out. The scenes between Armin and Max are like an amazing choreographed dance. I wouldn't be surprised if they rehearsed those just to get it perfect. And the direction from Rene in this one, wow! That shot when Tiny Rom has Zek in the sack and they all start down the hall is so well done. Everyone's movement is captured perfectly. So many scenes are just a complete masterpiece. But maybe the humor not working in PM overshadowed all that? I hope some day you'll watch it again and enjoy all the nuggets. Glad you liked this one tho :)

"The Ferengi head is good." ...say that again...

Maybe the short doorways were just cheaper lol, budgets over comfort! lol. Started to quote a rule of Acquisition but realized it hasn't been spoken on screen yet.

Josh: "I like to believe that women have all the rights that men have at this point..." The irony of saying that in a country where the christofascist government has been stripping back women's rights.

It’s kinda like Riker before the beard, Avery post goatee has transformed

It’s the cozy episodes that make you care about the war episodes

I don’t think it’s just a gag (the clothing stuff). The gag reveals something about society far better than a serious sermon type episode. Laughter can really open our hearts. I’m very glad they aren’t preaching here. At least overtly. And Josh you hit the nail on the head when you said Moogie is strong on her own and they don’t have to dumb down Quark and Rom to make that point. And I just love how moral and proper Quark is. He is traditional. All from a Ferengi perspective. As far as Ferenginar being a rainforest, I assume that’s just the area of ferenginar we saw.

Thinking about Ferengi attitudes toward women, it comes to mind that only 22 years before this episode first aired, U.S. women could not yet get a credit card in their name. Their attitude toward women isn't really exaggerated any more than their capitalistic nature is when you compare it to a history that is still within many of our lifetimes.

Alex, don't let Janeway hear that anti-coffee talk. I'm pretty sure she takes a shot of espresso as a nightcap.

For me, there's nothing more to dive into with whole "why are Ferengi more comfortable with women being naked thing." The Ferengi are meant to be caricatures of the more ridiculous parts of our own society. In particular, the Ferengi are what you get when you take capitalism and sexism, and crank them up to their furthest most corrupt extreme. So the earth equivalent of Ferengi not being allowed to wear clothes, and the men being uncomfortable around them wearing clothing would be anything pre 1920s when women weren't allowed to wear pants. If a woman dressed up in men's clothing in the 1900s, and started going hardcore feminist, it would be just as controversial as what we see here with Ishka wearing clothes and advocating for women's equality. 1900s society wasn't ready for that, and neither is Ferengi society. This episode doesn't feel woke or preachy because by the 1990s, people could look back on the 1900s and laugh. The message being taught here is a message that our society has already learned. To the point where if we look at a society that hasn't learned it yet, it seems ridiculous. But we forget that our society was right there with them not that long ago, just not to that furthest extreme. Why can't female Ferengi wear clothes? The same reason why they are called "females." Ferengi go way further than we ever did with our own sexism. They demean women to the furthest extreme, not even treating them like people. They view them as existing only to serve the men, and as "things" that have to be constantly kept in line or they'll trick them. So they don't even give them the honor of being called a woman, or even let them wear clothes. It's all part of pushing them down and keeping them fully submissive. It's just one of the many things that make the Ferengi an extreme caricature culture. I don't want the episode to dive into why the Ferengi feel this way about women being naked. It should be obvious to us, that just like their over focus on the pursuit of profit, they feel that way about women because it's culturally ingrained. I don't want this episode wasting time explaining what it is already clearly showing in better ways.

But did you find the disc?

I like this one, definitely a B in my opinion but not a Season favourite, despite the classic line from Jeffrey Combs that makes all Ferengi shit their pants, 'Brunt, FCA' 😂 i knew you'd love seeing Ferenginar for the first time, and yes with it being constantly rainy i knew Alex would say that's how he expected Cardassia to look. I love light hearted episodes as you should know by now. I'm really pleased you both enjoyed this, i know partly for the family stuff, but with it being a Ferengi episode it's hard to predict if you will. To think a few years ago when you two groaned each time you realised the Ferengi were back in TNG, and i was thinking, 'good luck with DS9 when you have 2 or 3 Ferengi episodes each Season ' lol

Last thing I'll put here is just that its a shame that the cultural narrative about progressive politics in writing, which is key to Star Trek's values, has been hijacked by people with an agenda. The problem isn't the politics its when the writing just sucks and doesn't know how to convey a message naturally. Star Trek has literally been doing this for 60 years now, mostly successfully without coming off as preachy, if anyone needs to "Do better' its script writers!

I forgot how enjoyable this episode was. Rom really took a spotlight in this episode and was quite enjoyable. I really like Penny Johnson Jerald as an actress. I hope one day you gents get to The Orville.

Quarks whole attitude to Ferengi traditions and culture is interesting. There's a lot of subtleties in this episode in particular. Like he has kinda forgotten about a lot of the toll culture on Ferenginar, because that's not what he's used to any more and he seems almost annoyed by it. His complaints to his mother are also less idealistically motivated and more about the social pressures he's dealt with, basically his objections are more about not wanting to be picked on by society rather than because he's an ideologue. It's honestly the attitude of most people living in a culture that has questionable practices, and why they continue. Its also very sweet that he's clearly touched by how his mother feels that they're similar. And one of the most revealing things about Quark is how he treats women romantically. While he definitely can be a pig he generally tries to be charming and is only seriously interested in women who are about as far away from the Ferengi ideal as possible. Dax, Kira, Nateema, even the Vulcan lady from The Maquis. These are all smart women with strong personalities who will push back on his BS. Despite his protestations to the contrary Quark often comes off more ambivalent about Ferengi customs while clearly being shaped by them.

I think people have given you guys an incomplete picture of DS9. Yeah there are awesome stretches of story focused stuff but that is always utilized for great character focused episodes. Literally some of the best episodes of the series exist because of status quo changes created by ongoing story arcs but are almost entirely about the kind of character drama you love. DS9 isn't great because its the ongoing story version of Star Trek, its great because it is that while also being just like the Star Trek that's come before with character focused episodes and fun one offs. The genius is that it often manages to tie each half into each other, improving both.

Speaking of references. Kassidy's brother lives on Cestus III, where Kirk and crew were attacked by the Gorn in "Arena." Evidentally, they gave up their claim to the planet to allow Federation Colonists to settle there. And there's even a "Pike City," named after Spock's first Captain, perhaps?

So, I'm not sure if this is WHY they went with the idea that Ferengi females wear clothing, and men feel uncomfortable around clothed females, or if the show states it outright, but TOS costume designer William Ware Theiss has a theory (The Theiss Titilation Theory) that clothing, particularily clothing with the potential for a wardrobe malfunction is sexier/more attractive than nudity. We all remember Andrea in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" So maybe the Ferengi disgust of clothed females is because they find it MORE tantalizing and appealing than nude females. And of course, Ferengi females must suffer for male inability to handle their own titilation.

Jake: "You're going to like Kasidy, dad!" Sisko, skeptical: "We'll see." Josh and Alex whenever the bridge crew gets excited in advance about an episode.

Love the reaction. Not trying to tease you guys too much, but I think you’re finally starting to “get it” when it comes to DS9. The show has big variety. Serious, relaxed, serious, relaxed, inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale. Voyager does it a bit too. You can finally stop with the worry, worry, worry, fear, fear, fear about the series. Just take it ALL in. Also, I think you’re realizing that not everything has to be wrapped up in one episode, as they constantly love to revisit things. I’m not trying to bug you guys too much, it’s just that mentality shift to overcome that I think you guys are getting to now.

The plot wasn’t missing in fact there were two of them. Great French episode I’m kinda got a soft spot for this ep as moogie always reminded me of my mom and she passed away in February. So many little touches make this a great episode from Jeffery combs to Andrea Martin who they couldn’t have picked anyone better since she has great comedic timing from working on so nany characters on SCTV

Alex believes in "three strikes you're out" but also in multiple at bats.

Shame you guys didn't take some more time on Sisko and Cassidy.

Fun episode, great character stuff, fun and wacky Ferengi lore drop. Really like how "all-in" the writers go on making other cultures really different from what we're accustomed to. @TargetAudience: Regarding the buildup of the "The Dominion," refer back to the recent two-parter as a great reference point. Recall the methods used by the Dominion and the ways in which they totally worked the Cardassian and Romulan intelligence agencies: subversion, manipulation, and infiltration. They baited those agencies into wrecking themselves, without needing to be the initial aggressor. This is similar to how the Dominion was fully introduced in "The Search" two-parter. Did they come out and immediately attack the Alpha Quadrant? No, they captured the crew and ran simulations on how the Alpha Quadrant powers might react to an established Dominion presence. I highly recommend keeping these known Dominion tactics in mind. It will help you better understand the bigger picture at play here.

Before DS9 started I was worried you guys weren't going to like the Ferengi episodes, which are some of my favorites of the show. I'm glad I was (mostly) wrong

Poor Eddington gets forgotten even when theyre explicitly trying to remember minor forgettable characters lol

Avery played Hawk in Spencer for Hire, where he had a goatee, so it's his default look. They made him shave it when DS9 started.

Dude, Ferengi are like frogs, so they live in a swamp. Cardassians are like desert lizards, hence the sunshine.

Behr has been showrunner since just after mid-season 2. I've been making this same comment at least 4 times in the last few weeks. Sooner or later.....

So Alex is a confirmed Fearful Avoidant now. Writing someone off at the slightest sign of trouble, yet also feeling like you'd put up with any amount of abuse just to keep them around is classic Fearful Avoidant relationship strategy. Fearful Avoidants are a walking contradiction, simultaneously wanting attachment, but pushing it away the moment they start to actually get it. They have the most trauma of all the attachment styles because they have the trauma of both the Dismissive Avoidant style (avoids attachment, especially from those who love them the most), and the Anxious Preoccupied style (overly attached, especially to people who want them the least). These are completely opposite types that Fearful Avoidants constantly, seemingly contradictory, flip between. They also almost always have trust issues, parent issues, and/or grew up in some sort of chaotic or unsupportive home environment. I think I found out what Alex's two halves from Faces would be.

Breaking into the bar is an odd choice when they have access to transporters. Banger episode though

A Tim and Eric reference!

I vaguely remembered that this was the ep where Quark's mom got in trouble for earning profit, but not much else, and from the little I remembered I wasn't expecting to like it much, but it's far better than I remember. Brunt is a fun character, I love how EVERYTHING on the Ferengi homeworld comes with a price, including standing, and there's a lot of touching moments reconciliation and restoring family bonds. Finding out Keldar was a poor businessman like Rom, but a good husband and father, and that Quark without knowing it took after his mom more in terms of his business sense, it's all good stuff. Feels weird that the actress playing Ishka is only 2 years older than Quark though. And we see Sisko getting back in the saddle so to speak. Kasidy seems cool, and I wonder if Jake set them up knowing they shared the same obscure hobby. Doesn't hurt the romance when you can nerd out about the same things. Solid B tier episode.

No comment about Cestus III? Yates' brother plays baseball on the planet where the Gorn attacked in TOS.

Robert Hewit Wolfe is to blame for the Ferengi homeworld ‘s look. He figured that the Ferengi had big ears because the constant rain & fog made it hard to see and they had to rely on their hearing to navigate their world.

Awesome reaction, guys. I'm glad you enjoyed this one. ''Mother! Take your clothes off right this instant.'' always gets me. Never thought I'd hear such a line on actual TV.

Yessss! The one and only Jeffrey Combs has finally arrived.

I've said before that Ferengi episodes are always a hit or a miss for me, and this one is a hit. I love how it helps to develop Rom more and we're seeing him start to become more of a character other than just being Quark's comic relief sidekick.

I think the Ferengi episodes work so well for me because how utterly committed Armin is every moment he plays Quark in this show. He takes it as seriously as Nimoy took Spock and Dorn took Worf. The comedy comes from TALENT, not the fact that he's a "funny looking alien". I love Quark and this is a perfect example as to how thoroughly invested he is in his character.

The season blew its load with the 2 parter, these episodes are the post coital cigarette.

Brunt! FCA! Ferengi episodes may not be your favourite but I think DS9 do a good job of fleshing them out as a species and making them more relatable as characters with personal problems, motivations, etc. Worth comparing them to how TNG handled them. Ok, they aren't some of the strongest episodes and some of the stories could be better (so far). It'll be interesting to reflect upon them once you finish DS9. I quite like this episode for the character development, away from the main arc. Solid C for me with some very amusing moments.

I bet that disc is in the DS9 pack, but accidentally double-packed with another one from the season. It happens.

It seems no one mentioned the Cestus system is of course near the Gorn, the Gorn destroyed a colony there in a little episode called Arena

I really loved the camera panning up to Jake at the end of the coffee scene.

I think the plot you were missing is the Ferengi world building they had to do here :)

Jeffrey Combs originally tried out for the part of Riker, and while he didn't get that role, Jonathan Frakes was the one who cast him in Meridian as the alien who wanted Quark to create a holosuite program of Kira, and this is the 2nd guest role on DS9.

The final 7 episodes of s3 are a bit of a mission statement for the show going forward. Yes you’ll get the epic scale of the die is cast and yes you’ll get the heavily focussed character based episodes too. A much better Ferengi episode than prophet motive which I would have said is underrated but it’s nice to see so many like it

Of course if I wrote all of Trek I would like it better. But I like this one enough. PS both Max and Jeffery were on screen for their credits on screen

Cardassia is arid and cold. Remember Gul Madred talking about being a “War orphan” children huddled together in a doorway for warmth?

Tech issues are the worst. Unlike this episode, which is GOATED for me.

This episode was PAINFUL to rewatch, one of the worst of the series imo, but I did enjoy the discussion and takes and hearing why understand why most everyone liked it.

A double header worth staying up late. I need to go to sleep now.

56:52 I can't for the life of me find the quote but I remember reading either Ira or Berman saying that they had seen Avery Brooks doing a stage play and knew he was a phenomenal actor but wasn't giving off the same energy in the show. He'd apparently been asked by executives to avoid having a goatee and keeping a full head of hair for various dubious reasons- one often sited being he'd too closely resemble another character he played in an unrelated series. Anyway, I think Ira being on the show finally got them to listen to his requests to have a look more in keeping with his comfort and taste as an actor, and as you say the boost in energy and emotion is immediately noticeable.

Ever notice how when it rains, we tend to hunch over in a weird attempt to keep our heads dry? Now we can understand why the Ferengi are often shown as leaning over and why their doorways have such low head clearance

Makes me think of the line from PSYCHO. "A boy's best friend is his Moogie".

Ferenginar from what we've seen in the matte painting exterior shots comes off less as a rain forest and more a swamp world, like Dagobah in Star Wars but with more greed. It makes sense that their world is like that, given they love to eat tube grubs and other slimy wiggly bugs

To copy over what I said on the YouTube version I 100% agree with you guys. I was just meaning in general some folks are quick to call things "woke." I didn't think you guys would (and I don't either, hence the A from me) having seen all of your TNG reactions before, that was more of a in general comment.

I have to apologize for remembering incorrectly. The name of the Ferengi homeworld wasn't mentioned yet in this episode. But I am relieved that I was not the only one who thought otherwise.

Used to not like this one, mostly due to the typical 'Ferengi Episodes Bad' bias many developed through TNG. Now quite enjoy it for the actual character development it gives Quark and Rom, plus all the absurdist capitalist humor of life on Ferenginar.

Avery Brooks in real life is really something else. I am basing this on three different interviews I have seen him in (one of which he is interviewed by William Shatner). He is eclectic, perhaps even eccentric. A ball of intense energy. Multi-talented. He is a musician and an artist as well as an actor. Taught theater at Princeton University for quite some time. He comes across as a quirky yet extremely intelligent oddball. He definitely marches to a different drummer. Starting about now and throughout the rest of the series, he truly becomes the gravitational center of the show. His presence changes so much that it will feel like he was sleepwalking through the first three seasons. Whatever changed behind the scenes, either in his personal life or in the shows production team, it lit a fire. I understand what you are saying about the difference between Sisko the homebody and Sisko the officer. What he achieves moving forward is a successful fusion of the two resulting in a more dynamic character.

Jeffery Combs as Brunt was a gem - what a slime ball of a character! Loved the exchange between him and Quark at the end, the insincere friendliness was so thick

The great comedy nicely softens some heavy family stuff. Quark being obsessed with business success because he thinks his dad could have done better, without even knowing the whole truth about his dad? That's some tragic stuff, actually. Kudos to both Armin Shimerman and Max G. for putting some weight behind the goofiness. And as Phenomenon noted, the only times this series has brought up Ferengi society's treatment of women is to shit all over it, so I think their hearts are in the right place. Actually I had forgotten how overt this episode was with those prejudices. They were a lot ballsier than today's TV in terms of giving clear examples of behaviors they think are wrong.

The reason they all have to crouch down indoors is because the Ferengi like low overheads.

As for the horrible way Ferengi women are being treated in their society, it's good to see that the only two women we have seen so far (Pel and Ishka) are totally not cool with it. Both of them have proven they were just as (if not more) capable as Ferengi men to earn profit, so let's see where they go with this

Hmm. The DS9 DVD disc disappearing right before the next Ira and Robert episode? Nice try, Alex!

DS9 sex scoreboard Runs have been scored but everything Ferengi still sucks. We could see the hard on from Sisko once sliding into second was said. The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 Bashir 3 Sisko 3 +1new Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Jake 1 GUEST: Cassidy +1 new DETAILS: Let’s start with a – 1 for Alex. How do you not know when a woman asks you to come up for a coffee it means sex. Here is proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2DEbtwTfss Now the ep. Jake should get an assist and Sisko just kinda fell into Cassidy, luckily facing the correct direction. Sisko scores a HOMERUN (wow that was the easiest lame comment I could make.) Maybe some day he’ll do a double play with Cassidy and her brother but right now he is just looking for the single but getting an RBI score. (better one). Perhaps Him and Jake will do a Double header with Cassidy and Jake’s new foul ballgirl. No need to go into extra innings that is enough.

Props for fight scenes? REAL GLASS?? Cry me a river

I'm usually not a fan of fourth wall breaks, but that subtle one at the dinner table just worked perfectly 😄

Ha! Just realized I’d been thinking of their mom’s name as Grilka smh interesting how Rom’s most assertive moments are to protect his son’s future in Starfleet and to defend his Moogie. You can already see where his values/priorities lie. But I don’t get the feeling Quark is precisely without any family affection, just more concerned with being a good Ferengi than the others (like telling Pel that he’d care that she wasn’t a traditional Ferengi female).

Rom n qaurk leveled up in my top 5 fav bc of this episode😍

This is my favorite Easter Egg.

I may be in the minority, but I actually love this episode. Edit: Glad you liked it! I'm sure you know this by now, but Brunt (FCA) is indeed the horror GOAT, Jeffery Combs!!

Another fun Ferengi episode.

Need my TA fix!!!!