UNCUT - The Die is Cast (DS9 S3E21) | Star Trek Journey 360

Man, Alex makes fantastic episodes like this almost unwatchable. At least the X-Files reactions are enjoyable.

I just watched the reaction, and I have to say, for me personally, this episode is easily SSS-level. It has the tension, the character moments, that certain something. It benefits from the series’ excellent world-building and character development, and on top of that, it offers a spectacular space battle and an epic, terrifying enemy—all woven into a meticulously crafted overarching narrative. But tastes and preferences vary, and I fully respect that. The sad thing is, since they found this episode just pretty neat, they’ll likely find Season 4 and beyond rather boring and won’t appreciate them—you can be pretty sure of that, unfortunately. That’s why I’m not hyped anymore for Season 4 and beyond; quite the opposite. They probably won’t appreciate it because it contains so much sci-fi stuff. Maybe they were just having a bad day—everyone has those—but if they react the same way to S4 E1+E2, without any euphoria or enthusiasm, then I won’t watch their DS9 episodes anymore, just the X-Files reactions and Voyager later on, when it gets interesting.

Odo was just proving the guy with the perfumes with an assassin. Was it that complicated lmao.

The gimmick of Alex being a discontent fretter…..time to grow from that

Soo... We get nice Character development for 2 Characters AND a good Story. And you are afraid that it will be like this? lol.

Jesus...I spent way too much time listening to commentary about Alex being a negative nelly, skipping the rest of that.

Oh dear. I hope for all our sakes Alex gives DS9 a fair hearing. This may be their channel but your viewers do matter.

Alex, you're going to hate every single episode from here on out. Now you can be pleasantly suprised with each episode if that's not true :)

Another note defending Ira Steven Behr. He produced the rather excellent television series based on the movie, FAME (1982-87). A series much admired by both critics and young people of the day (I should know.).

I'll admit I'm big fan of the Star Trek space battles, science, technology, and starships... However, I'm an even bigger fan of the storytelling, and especially the characters and their dynamics between each other. These two episodes do so much great work with Odo and Garak, and, ultimately, that's what I remember down the road.

I’ve watched this one a number of times. And I never got the parallel between Garak and Odo here. Even the changeling offering Odo to stay just as Tain offered Garak. I get why Odo didn’t rat out Garak. He understands wanting to return home even if your people are bad guys. I feel so thick 😊. As far as the overarching story- writers room. But the screenplay writer takes the ideas and makes it work. Ron is amazing. I think A is a very fair grade for this one. EDIT. Holy cow! Paul Dooley! Fantastic!

I love that Sisko has chief at the Defiant's transporter controls when lives are on the line.

Alex, don't sweat it. There's lots of stuff in there for you, too.

Seriously, y'all really need to watch Krull (1983) if you haven't already seen it. The actor who plays Eddington is the main character in the film and it's such a guilty pleasure film and is one of my personal faves. :)

Just watching along now but during the long ass intro I wanted to write this comment out…… So you’ve just (from my point of view watching) mentioned why not go through the wormhole cloaked? Then saying maybe they can’t. Interestingly everytime the defiant has gone through the wormhole up to this point it’s gone through then cloaked on the other side so interestingly a nice little bit of continuity flow there. An actual reason why? I dunno 🤷🏻‍♂️ Anyway the episode is about to start after the intro now so I’m gonna carry on watching 👀

I saw this when first released and have seen it probably 30 times since or more. Its hard to evaluate a single episode without knowing the full context. I think an A is fair as a stand alone, but for me its an S with context. DS9 is journey that might be better than the sum of its parts.

They gave this an A. I think that’s totally fair, and exactly the grade I would have given it.

I'm quite aligned with the guys on this one. It's good but never understand why people rave about it so much. Like so much of DS9, the fans hype it up to being amazing but actually it's kinda mid compared to the highs of TNG.

What I love so much about rewatching this is the new layer to every single line Lovok says. Him being concerned about Garak's presence. Who is this random guy, is he going to have this mission called off somehow? Who knows. Lovok explaining that they can only go at warp 6 or else they could be detected. Is this true, or is he stalling for more time so the founders can evacuate, or maybe give more time for Jem'Hadar ships to arrive in the nebula? Him being shocked and concerned at the discovery of the anti-changeling torture device. Of course that would concern him! Him vouching for Odo not to be killed, and then confronting Garak to ask him why HE tried to protect odo! Gosh, it's so good.

The Founders' basic perspective is that other life forms ('Solids') are threats to them by their very existence. If not currently a direct threat than potentially at some future point. This mindset means the Founders are expansionist and aggressive. Their violent subjugation of other species and civilisations also produces pre-emptive or reactive aggression in return. The show has already set out that the Dominion will be coming....

I remember weeks in the 90's when I worked during the day and there was not much entertainment until the weekend, but there was some star trek playing at night. We were just happy to be watching it to kill the silence in the room. Take off the S colored glasses, and try and remember that comparison is the thief of joy, oh and don't stop what you are doing 'cause you boys are killing it!

So ummm, this follow-up discussion after The Die Is Cast was not on my bingo card.

O boy. 'We dont like serial shows or big picture'. This is going to be a long several seasons.

The guys just don't seem very into big picture world building, which is one of DS9's biggest strengths. Not a lot of shows are good at this, so it's a bummer the guys don't appreciate it all that much. The great characters on DS9 will always keep them into the show, but I'm beginning to doubt they will fully appreciate and enjoy how carefully crafted DS9's long-term storytelling is. It is WAY better than Voyager in this regard. Different tastes and all...

We don't think Alex will change his mind with Ira running the show, we think Alex will be triggered more than ever now.

I want to name the 2 future episodes of DS9 that I love and Alex, you should love too! I won’t spoil it. When they come I will remind you of this post and I want to know your thoughts. But trust there will be some amazing thought provoking stores coming!

I might not agree with T.A. on these reactions but I do feel like The hardcore DS9 fans are getting a little bit of Hardcore Voyager fans experience. For years we can't understand how people don't like Voyager and it gets trashed by other Trek fans. DS9 isn't even really being hated on just not being Loved as much as expected. Like Chakotay "Misery loves company" 😉. BTW I love DS9 as well.

There is something good from the Gamma quadrant- tulaberries.

Hey. Alex. You aren't a curse, man. You just got some rotten luck. Don't let your negative life experiences drag you into a self-fufilling prophecy where you expect the negative to happen, and subconciously cause it to happen. You are just a human being, flawed as the rest of us, as capable as any man, and that's okay. Try to seek out whatever paltry silver lining in any negative situation that may occur, just to give some balance. You might not have power for 6 days, but you get to watch friggin TV for a living man. How cool is that? You seem to have your health and an ability to stay fit. You have a sense of humour and are humble enough to laugh at yourself. Not everyone gets to say all that. You are doing okay. Even when life smacks you upside the head, or not everyone agrees. When I have hardships, I just tell myself that the best things in life rarely come easily, and require perserverance, and overcoming some obstacle. That helps me push through shit. So yeah, just thought you oughta know that.

Alex is going to owe Ira Behr an apology. "Nuff said."

A note about how cloaking works in Trek: in order to be effective, a ship under cloak must reduse every sort of energy output it has so as to not leave a trace for other ships to find. It also is a HUGE draw of power itself. So that means NO shields. Given how vilolent the interior of the wormhole looks, shields are likely required to traverse it. A ship may even need to send out some form of energy to trigger the wormhole to open, which likely requires a ship to decloak, unless there's some upgrade to the tech, I think this is just a limitation of the technology. That a ship under cloak operates with no shields is also why the Defiant got it's ass kicked in that first battle: The Dominion saw through the cloak and fired upon the ship with its shields down.

Writer credits are more about who gets paid for what rather than an aknowledgement of who did what.

what i think would make these reactions even better. Blur the episode title credits. go into the episode knowing nothhing about who did what and revel that in the review. It would put out any preconcieved notions and judge the episode on its merits or lack thereof.

Yeah, I get. I wish people would tamper down with the expectations. Just let them watch the show and form their own opinions.

Alex holy moly calm down! You've had 12 episodes this season that you've LOVED, you just had two episodes that made you guys cry....but because you didn't cry or get surprised with like four episodes you're worried about the rest of the show? Do you remember how much you guys were gushing overing the first 14 (minus 2) episodes? And the show hasn't even "grown it's beard" yet. Seriously I don't know ANYONE who thinks the first three seasons are the best of the show they're the worst of the show. S4-S6 are PEAK trek. The best episodes of the show, some of the best of all trek, haven't even happened yet! And while Ira might be the official showrunner now I've always felt s4 on was really Ron Moore's show. You can FEEL his addition to the show starting with s4. Seriously you gotta reflect on what you've already had so far this season and how much you already loved and not be so pessimistic because the last couple aren't the EXACT style of episode you want. TNG didn't give you the exact kind of episode you love every episode why would this show? Maybe take a step back and stop embracing your eeyore mentality of everything sucks and will continue to get worse and have a bit of optimism for what is to come. You'll enjoy the journey and be able to live in the moment so much more. And maybe TRY to enjoy things for what they are and not what you WANT them to be. Not every episode can make you cry or surprise you with some huge reveal at the end that you don't see coming. Trust me as someone who also LOVES the Defector and Lessons and all those kinds of episodes...this show hasn't even started to be the show that everyone raves about.

This episode is a masterpiece but I doesn't quite make my top 10 ds9 episodes. Close though. After they end season 7 it would be interesting to know how people have the same episode as their top. I'm not a fam of The Inner Light (or The Bonding) at all. Yesterday's Enterprise for me. What will DS9s equivalent be? If we haven't had it already...

The most S of S tiers. One of the top episodes of the franchise. If only writing was like this these days.

About that discussion at the end, just remember: "You can't always get what you want But if you try sometime, you just might find You just might find that you get what you need"

Ira the show runner >>> Ira the episode writer. They're different skill sets. Show runner is closer to the role of director than writer in many ways. Most valuable skill for a show runner is to put the writing staff, crew and cast in the best position to succeed by giving them the best outline to follow and goals to reach. In other words, have the overall vision. IMO this is what happens with DS9 under Ira. But also - 26 episodes a season, so there's still gonna be a few misfires.

Alex is pretty much in the position I was in with Doctor Who with Chris Chibnall when he took over as head writer there. So I get his concern when he hasn't liked Iras work and now he's in charge. When you don't like one writer on a show and they them take over it doesn't always go well.

"Someone's on the way". It looks like "they know".

Not a heel turn, but maybe I'd say Garek & Tain shaking hands is equal to Hogan & Savage on Saturday Night's Main Event as a big holy crap moment

Bashir missing his boyfriend. Loved the changes with your LCARS frame. I thoroughly enjoyed these episodes of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 starring Andrew Robinson. I'm sure Alex will enjoy the next episode.

Star trek and wrestling really do go together, though more so for voyager. Especially in the period when voyager and WWF smackdown were both on UPN, you'd get a lot of teasers for WWF during voyager ad breaks.

S! Probably not a surprise as i've made no secret of Cardassians and Romulans being my favourite species.

It would seem that more and more often these days, Alex’s reactions to these top shelf DS9 episodes are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. 😉 I think that this episode is an S the whole way and it means we’re going to have to break out double-S, triple-S and even quadruple-S for future episodes. 😉😉

that line "you know what the sad thing is? i'm a very good tailor" always makes me cry tbh. its obvious that garak hates his life on ds9 in most aspects, but now that hes grown too fond of the people on it to genuinely consider leaving anymore, he wishes he didn't.

Still disappointed we didn't get to see Bashir eating Garak's rod.

Holy crap! I didn't know Pail Dooley was still alive! Very cool!

I know they liked it, I get that, but... during the watch, they still felt slightly detached? Like talking over some dialog that might have been good to hear because they were more interested in a joke or comment? I get that they always, in general, do that, but in this one it just came off a little like the episodes didn't fully connect with them, and in doing so, I think they missed a little bit. I dunno. Might partially explain why they're both kind of B and A on both part 1 and two of this, whereas some of us really love this two-part story more.

Oh, no! What if Alex doesn't like it as much as most people do? It would be like hating on Star Trek 6 or something. The world would end. 😉

I'd give this episode an A+ or S, though I understand not being blown away by it if this kind of "pieces moving on the chessboard" story isn't what you're looking for. Can I just say though, everyone needs to chill the eff out. If we're constantly hyping up the show to a level where it's unrealistic to expect them to be THAT excited about it, and then acting like the sky is falling when it's "just fine" or "just good", it's just going to ruin the experience for all involved. They'll either love the show, or they won't. There's not a damn thing we can do about it, so we might as well relax and take the journey for what it is. As with the first part, some great Garak and Odo stuff. Not surprising that deep down Odo misses his people. Also love how in the end, despite having tortured him, Odo seems to see something of himself in Garak. A man who can't go home. And FINALLY the Defiant genuinely kicks some ass. I mean it did get to shine a bit in it's eponymous episode, and it still took out a Jem'Hadar ship in The Search despite being outnumbered 3 to 1. But here, it just wades into this massive battle, takes out 5 ships like it's nothing, and skedaddles. Little bit of redemption of that tough little ship. Obviously, the ships destroyed in the nebula aren't even a very significant fraction of the romulan or cardassian fleets, but the loss in intelligence personnel is what's truly crippling. Especially with the revelation that changelings can perfectly mimic humanoids, the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar would be 2 of the greatest roadblocks to infiltration. I have to say though, I disagree about the Romulans being more straight up villainous than the Cardassians. Yes, the Romulans have a somewhat repressive society, but not anywhere near the level of the Cardassians. It's like comparing China and North Korea. Wouldn't want to live in either, but if I had to choose, China all day. Romulans have been shown fairly often to not be entirely divorced from the kinds of values humans embrace. Jarok aside, we've seen a good number of relatable romulans. Telek R'Mor is a great example. Also in The Chase, it was the romulan commander that reached out to Picard and seemed most receptive of the message of unity. Also episodes like Timescape, The Enemy, Unification and Face of the Enemy all showed us Romulans who were either open minded to start with or who were willing to be convinced. Sure, they did plan to destroy DS9 in Visionary, but let's be real, even Alex is now saying seal the wormhole. So to be fair, they arguably had the right idea.

Leon Russom, who plays the admiral, was also Starfleet's Commander-in-Chief in Star Trek VI, both, in the briefing scene about the future of the Klingon Empire after the destruction of Praxis, its moon, and the Camp Khitomer scenes toward the end of the movie.

First early View buy, becuase tommorow i will be gone for 3 Weeks, but i wanted to see the conclusion of the 2 Parter before. ^^

Theres also a very unique lifeform that lives inside the wormhole which would go against starfleet's value to destroy for their own political conveince. I mean, they apparently were willing to do it as an option of last resort which is actually an important plot point. There is the possibility that The Dominion realizes they can't get enough ships through before Starfleet will destroy it. You don't survive as long as the Federation has being complete collective idiots. But it's an absolute last resort they would consider. With the Dominion knowing this, it opens up the possibility this is the only reason there hasn't been a full scale invasion. So If the Founders are playing the long game and trying to prepare for that eventual plan... And based on how long term and strategic the Founders are, that's a real possibility. So it may be that You're trying to prevent a war that's inevitable and all you can do is delay it. You very much hope that's not the case. But you do have to be ready for the possibility. So it is a realistic complex political question. Maybe the Dominion would back off if they just closed traffic to the wormhole. But you clearly cant trust them, and you're not sure. Whats been going on if you were paying close attention was the Dominion made a very aggressive violent demand that they stay on their side of the wormhole. But the exit in the gamma quadrant is outside Dominion territroy. Not that the Dominion has official borders, but it's outside the area where the Dominion clearly dominates. So whats been going on since is that the federation is still allowing cargo and science ships through but adivising them to stay out of Dominion congtrolled space and the Defiant's mapping has ben in non Dominion space, thought the dominions reach extends beyond those limits. So Basically the Federation's position is- you never told us this was your territory and you attack us and tell us we cant use the wormhole. From the Federation's point of view, The Dominion essentially blockading a major passage that because it's too close their zone of control is not conduct of a "reasonable" state actor so this is the kind of thing the Federation in theory guarantess to its various member worlds, we will defend ways of passage from blockage in the cases of neutral territory

When Ceasar crossed the rubicon he is rumored to have said "alea iacta est" -- which translates as "The Die Is Cast". This is very much a "Crossing The Rubicon" -- two major Alpha quadrant powers have been seemingly crippled -- stay tuned!

Alex's point was HOT on. You can actually start to understand a little why maybe the changelings are so paranoid. He's right. If they handt gotten to poking around in the Gamma Quadrant, none of this would be an issue. And the Dominion actually waited two years by announving itself. Now I'm not justifying the Dominion. But absolutely it's interesting- it's a threat but its also a very dangerous situation for everyone. This is realistically how wars start, espeically "Great Power" Wars. Like this feels very realistic to the established universe that the problem isnt just the threat from the Dominion but how other "Great Powers" will react to the Dominion. Which opens all this intrigue and complexity. I know I have very different takes with you a lot, but that one was exactly right. We're deaing with a realistically complex political situation which is balancing act. That opens up al kinds of narratives possibiliites, but it also makes thing more ambiguous then they should be.

Garak and Odo have deep character moments, in Garak's case, a monumental character event

Garak knew there was something he wasnt saying about the Founders. He gives two shits that Odo loves Kira. That has no relevance to the purpose of the interrogation.

The irony of the revealtion of the secret, that even though he had turned his back on them he still wanted to be amongst his people.. the irony that Garak's very motivation for this torture is the same "secret" Odo had was a HUGE moment for his character. Then, quoting Shakespeare to Tain- who hed insulted in the first conversation with Bashir- it was basically his recognition of the legitimacy of some things he had been picking up from the Federation. Then, all his suspicions about Cardassian society and his resentments manifest when he sees ths scale of this folly and how the founders so easily played Tain, and Tain's completr collapse when he realizes it the end for him and the Obsidian Order when Tain was the mentor he.. if not admired, cared about his approval. I mean, that is the kind of thing that will have a major impact on a person. Garak is dark but not stupid. It was a huge moment for the characeter and his evolution.

It wasn't just to wrap up the mystery. The way Eddington handles it is what allows Sisko to give him his station back. He followeed his order but hes not going to sabotage their chances at success. The giving him his word part and being so upfront about the order he had to follow. He followed the order, after completion of announced and explained it. Yes, it's possible he had additional orders, but the Admiral wouldn't have ordered him to do something that would compromise the Defian't safety, especially when there is a taskforce of 9 ships at DS( anyway.

They need a chief of security if Hem'Hadar board the ship. And we have seen security officers who can man tactical and weapons stations, so it makes sense. Or if, like... Someone on board wasn't who you thought they was. Keep in mind... A Changeling can lool like anyone or anything. It could be... a gas. You would want a chief of security whose been trained as he surely has on how to plan countermeasures.

Keeping Eddington at his station made sense. Eddington doesnt really know these people and he got a direct order. He was straightforward about it and correctly said he didnt damage any of the weapon systems. Sisko is a starfleet officer and he cant blame him for following a direct order. Imagine if he put him in the brig, that would be the end of his career. Sisko believes in the chain of command and understands he was following an order by a direct superior officer. Eddington gave him his word as an officer and Sisko accepts that. That is very much also in the character of Sisko. He's willing to bend the rules and even break them but he absolutely believes in starfleet and the Federation. You can't get to be a commander if you don't. Its funny because the fan base has a lot more theorizing and "semi-canon" about how these things must work. I read a TNG novel where An Admiral tells Picard what it's your call. We then get an explanation in terms of Picar'd understanding that makes perfect sense. It's your call means "it's you call." As in, we're trusting you to make the right decision, but if you make the wrong one its on you. Picard says that this is why Starfleet works- they do actually give a lot of authonomy to their commanders and you CAN break the rules IF the end result works. If it doesn't, you're court martialed. This balances the chain of command with a practically function system. Admirals may seem out of touch but its because they all have like 20 things at one time that are immediate and urgent and another 100 or so that still have to be done. Starfleet is a disciplined and effective organization but not an authoritarian one. It understands and gives great deference to their on scene commanders who are elite and the uper organization is actually good overall but the sheer bureacracy of running such a huge and complex organization, plus the usual political stuff of 150 different member races... And Starfleet isnt the whole federation. I think this explanation makes a lot of sense to me but it wasn't something this writer just pulled out of whole clothe, this was a description of the way seems to actually work in the world of the Show and he's putting that logic out there explicitly as part of Picard's thought process when it would be. Yes, the "real" explanation might be going to the well out of the of touch distant official conflicitng with "our guys" on the ground. But when you think about it, this kind of "in universe" explanation makes sense, and there were and are a lot of fans who have put the pieces together about how things work in theis universe extracted from those kind of needs. But I think you are right that DS9 does a great job of being more... self aware then TNG and wanting to make this world a more "real, lived in place" where characters make sense as real people and not just plot convenience. Which is part of what again, makes DS( so great. It takes this world that has been built but in a wahy makes it all feel more real. For many of us, that heightens the stakes of the big plot stuff. We care about this fictional place because or characters have cared about it, and it underlies there most basic motivations. Maybe Alex is burned out on that kind of big scale storytelling and seeing things in the lens of plot cliches, but for those of us bought in, we feel that this universe has earned it, we are investd in this world as we are rooting for the characters so this "addining dimensionality" to things while keeping it esentially Star Trek, but as TNG was an evolution from TOS, DS9 evolves to the point where, for me anyway, it actually made me appreciate the bigger universe more and be interested in the "fictional timeline" of things and see episodes from the past and reinterpret them understanding the history and DS9 really taked the continuity to do a more epic scale story then what it's done before. I do think you guys are missing the "spiritual"/"inspirational" aspect as this was a more mature version of that world. It didn't contradict what came before, it elevated it. As Roddenberry really got into his rep from TOS as a utopian visionry informed the way TNG was going to be different, This show takes it and yes, as many say, takes a closer eye into it all and its messines... But it's still essentially the same Federation it always has been and DS( if very much aware of how those themes and ideas intersect with a more filled out reality in a time of crisis Even after we learn from TNG the Gill Worm invasion has been internally collapsing the federation, still, there's a sense from the beginning of TNG on that the Federation was a much greater power then it was on TOS. This makes sense as it was looking at things through the lens of being the lone global superpower- The historical time for this was the end of the Cold War and the "unipolar-american moment" when the US, relative to all other countries, was at the absolute peak of its power and seemed to habe become the most dominant, unchallenged power in history. That was the Federation being considered then, where the Prime Directive became deeper as a social poltiical question exactly because we are thinking about the questions as how does an actuall good superpower do things? With the literal most important rule being to be exceedingly careful about using that power. So DS9 starts as wanting to see how instead of on the Flagship, things are on the messy posts. We immediately have a kind of focus on Cardassia and Bajor built into the premise that we have to as audeince members care about those and they have to feel like real lived places where things matter and history and the future intersect. So we started with that premise.. but then watch this crew grow up into a real "crew" where now the base is maybe the most important place in the quadrant, they are no longer trying to run a gutted cardassian occupation base into a Bajoran part co-operated by starfleet in the hopes of having a key strategic member so close to Cardassia, and this crew is at the center of galactic intrigue of monumental import while still dealing with all the idiosyncratic politics of their position which we've already established. They are the first line of defense in an invasion they prey will never come but seem far too eventual. And this is a threat that could literally destroy that world. DS9 manages to sustain stakes that haven't really been felt since The Best of Both Worlds. But this is not a one off enemy. And as we've seen, its a different kind of enemy. Its not just beter technology or stronger ships or genetically engineered slave soldiers. The Founders have been watching the Alpha Quadrant and learning. They are ten times the size of the Federation and centuries older. I feel like if your bought into those stakes, you get to see our Characters motivations and what they are dealing with and facing into a "deeper story". Like... DS9 begins to feel like its actually one long epic story and threads weave and stakes rise. I feel like this enhances the characters and their journeys and motivations, epecially given These specific chaarcters and their expereinces. It seems to me like separating the character drama from the stakes of the thing the characters care about makes there character interactions more narrow.

Enabran Tain DID know who Dr Bashir was. Remember Bashir visited him at the end of The Wire and he freaked Bashir out knowing evertything about him. A person like Tain would have to have an excellent memory and Cardassians are already known for their great memories which are enhanced by state training. So Tain knew who Bashir was and Garak knew that Tain knew who Bashir was.

So I'd be curious for Alex to expand on why the big scale galatic consequences plot stuff pulls him out a bit. I think many people love the epic scale of DS9. I'd be interesting in why that seems to turn off Alex. I don't think its a spoiler here to say this epic scale stuff continues and is a major part of the show. Maybe it's because you guys don't seem to like the Federation as a concept. For me, a major theme here is that while yes, the Federation has flaws, it IS genuinely utiopian and I think groking this show really depends on relating to those stakes. I'm going to go back and write a way too late take, but I think this is also why you guys hated the time travel two parter. You missed that it's not "about" poverty, it's about humanity and hope versus despair and apathy. The line from Bashir... "something like "If the federation was facing a bad enough threat would we overcome or would we find ourselves just back here. This is part of the "spiritual" aspect of DS9 that you guys arent relating to, and a major part of trek that you havent really seemed to connect that, that optimism about the future and human potentisl. So I think maybe not realy being invested in the Federation or sort of understanding what it represents is maybe why the connection is missing. Like it IS about these characters because these are the ideals they are commiited to. Probably part of it is because youve watched this all so fast instead of being part of the cultural background there for decades, but DS9 is definitely about "what does it mean to try to hold on to that and defend it and fight for it when the problem is overwhelming. The time travel episode connects to the general themes of the show very well. I think it speaks to our modern world maybe better then it did at the time, because there's a sense that there are all these negative things going in a bad direction, and what can anyone do about it, and the things people try to do just seem to make things worse. I think if you just see it as space opera for the sake of space opera, maybe thats what pulls you out. Not really being invested in the Federation as a concept or seeing those deeper themes that make us care about this fictional world. This is really the first trek show that takes on everything thats been built and goes from a frontier outpost which becomes the central point of view for this "world of Star Trek" to feel like a huge, real place where these matters of galatic import are happening. Instead of a traveling ship where every episode goes to a new place, we are seeing what happens have galactic effects that stay and change and then those changes lead to new developments. Previous Trek had continuity, but you didn't really have the same thing where something that happened changed the entire galactic situation and that is not just "ok, turn the page", these things affect the status quo of that world and they change things for the future. To me it seems like thagt has way more stakes then a TNG space battle.

so havent watched the posgt episode discussion but Garak saying "The fault is not in our stars but ourselves" is from Shakespeare, calling back to the conversation Garak and Bashir were haing at the start of this two parter. And obviously it hit Garak that what Odo was hiding was the desire to be amongst his people despite the same conflicted feelings Garak had about them. It makes sense cloaking devices dont work in the wormhole. A cloaking device manipulates space and light to block all signals and is very sophisticated but can be easily disurpted. The wormhole is two blackholes thagt warp space so much that the normal rules of physics break down and matter is propelled from one to the other by the extreme warping of space-time but preserved in the forms it's in by the beings who live inside that live outside of time in the sense we understand it. There's no way a cloaking device could work given those conditions where the very laws of phyics break down. Yes, I think any matter entering eith side SHOULD spagettify because of the extreme gravity but I guess it's not that way because of the prophets. Though there has long been the idea that theoretically a wormhole could be used to travel FTL which seems to imply this some crazy case where spaghettification wouldnt happen but I don't frankly understand that at all, I'd have to do some research. Physics with black holes is really nuts. The Defiant does finally show how how effective a warship it is. They take out what, six jem'hadar fighters? Those phasor pulse canons just annihilate thos ships, and Dominon ships are tough. Remember the Defiant wa built to fight the Borg.

For me, this two-parter definitely has S written all over it. Having said that, it doesn't even make it into my personal top 10 of the series. The best is yet to come.

Wow, the Paul Dooley cameo was amazing, and he's 98 with that kind of mental clarity? What a boss! As for the episode, this is an S for me because of the Garak and Odo torture scene. Remarkable acting from both of those legends. Otherwise, I'd give it an A. It's rare for an episode to be elevated up to perfection from a single scene, but it can happen. Another example of that would be Sarek back in TNG, with Patrick Stewart's otherworldly overflow of Sarek's emotions. As far as the Dominion is concerned, do you think they have a legitimate claim over the entire quadrant? If so, does it purely come down to might makes right pragmatism in the end? Alex, I know you're worried, but I PROMISE you, even just in S4 but also beyond, there are episodes that are going to blow your mind and make your soul weep. Just you wait.

Better cardassian at this point.. Garek or Dukat?

This was a great episode.. Andrew Robinson kills..

DS9 sex scoreboard Shootin' blanks again this ep The sex score board Quark 5 Jadzia 3 Sisko 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jake 1

This episode is such a big deal because it finally shows how the Dominion actually works and why they are such a threat. The whole reason why they are a big deal is they DON'T need to come into the Alpha quadrant super obvious with guns blazing like all of our other Star Trek villains would. They're much smarter than that. Instead, as shown here, they can conquer the whole quadrant from behind the scenes with minimal involvement, minimal risk, and minimal casualties, and you won't even know they've started until it's checkmate. This episode shows that you don't ever know that the Dominion wants to take you over until they've already taken you over. They win through strategy, patience, intelligence, and turning your own plans, fear, and pride against you. This is what the female changeling meant when she said "The Alpha quadrant seems ripe with chaos. We are willing to wait until the time is right." "Waiting" doesn't mean that they were sitting idle this whole season. "Waiting" means they've been patiently listening in, and carefully setting up chess pieces off screen that we don't know about. This isn't a "you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone" situation. In The Search, they warned us that they are actively planning to eventually take over the Alpha quadrant. That hasn't changed. This whole plan with Tain wasn't a simple retaliation for his plans, or a small defensive plan to protect their homeworld where they would have left them all alone if they had just stayed in the Alpha quadrant. This WAS their first offensive attack into the Alpha quadrant to strategically eliminate both the Cardassians and the Romulans in one efficient blow. And they did it by getting Tain of all people, to do it for them, destroying his own Obsidian order in the process. This was step one to them in destabilizing the entire Alpha quadrant, so later on, "when the time is right," they can take it over without firing a shot. Eventually, they will have systematically set everything up to where we have all destroyed ourselves by then, just like the Cardassians and the Romulans did here. Plans like this are their main weapon, and why they are so dangerous. They don't win through force, they win through patience and intelligence, and quietly working behind the scenes. And ironically, they win because we allow them to. This whole thing was a plan to take out the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. If it didn't happen by Tain's plan, then they would have orchestrated something else to take them out. And you can conclude from the Changling's line in this episode that they already have a similar plan set up to take out both the Federation and the Klingons. The question now is will either the Federation or the Klingons realize what that plan is before it's too late? Or will they completely unknowingly buy into it, just like Tain here with their own Caesarian hubris, doing exactly what the Dominion wants them to do until they've unknowingly weakened and destroyed themselves. The Dominion doesn't ever have to send anyone into the Alpha quadrant if they get us to do all the work for them. And that's why they are such a unique and interesting villain.

So, has something in season 4 already been spoiled? If so, Did everyone but me know?

Different strokes as always, but when you talk about this ep. not quite having the emotional way in, I disagree. I find "You know what the sad thing is; I'm a very good tailor" some novel-level brilliant writing. Gives me goosebumps no matter how many times I've seen it.

I appreciate the candid discussion about your concerns, Alex. I am an anxious person, and I also tend to be a pessimist, so I definitely related to some of the things you were saying that you were concerned about. But at the end of the day, I try to take things as they are, rather than what I would like them to be. I'm happy when I like something but I'm not disappointed that it didn't change my life. Sometimes, something be a B or an A is good. I love what you and Josh do even when you watch Star Trek 6. And we are just taking this ride together

I enjoyed “Improbable Cause” more than this episode. It’s a solid two-parter though.

Fans are going to fan, but we have to remember that DS9 overall is a "cult" hit and was never the flagship show. Is it my favorite? Absolutely. But I don't know if it has as much universal appeal as TNG or Voyager because it exists in this odd place in Trek. For my money it takes bigger swings (and sometimes has bigger misses) than just about every other Trek show.

Ahhh, in all big trek battles, just like Wolf 359, all ships involved never seem to remember they have shields 😅 makes for more exciting battles though.

The quality range for s4-s6 is good to greatness for most episodes. S7 has some misses for obvious reasons, but still great, especially the finale run.

I know there's a running gag of everyone saying when the show reaches that legend status. Here's the truth, though, that I have heard in other places and I agree with: It's when Ira becomes the showrunner. Which is now. Deep Space 9 will not be like it was, and I shall not say how, why, but you'll have to see. But THIS is the moment everyone was dancing around about when the show "gets good." It couldn't be said due to spoilers, but now that you know Ira is the showrunner, yeah...that is the moment everyone was hinting at. Not every episode will be an S, A or B, but for me, many many more are as we go forward. When fans talk about how beloved DS9 is, they mean from THIS point.

I figure the Romulans and Cardassians didn't cloak because that would just screw with the Federation even more. If they cloaked then the Federation could tell the Dominion that they didn't know about the attack at all. But if the Cardis and Romulans attack a location essentially given to them by the Federation (even if unknowingly) and they go in force past a Federation station, it will be harder for the Federation to deny culpability and they will get drawn into a war.

Superb episode. From all the things said in the review, I think they will look back once the series is done and be very satisfied.

When Alex's life sucks the show sucks.

I am not into seeing people’pop’ for things, if you are surprised or happy or such that is great but I am just watching Trek with others, that is all.

Peak? ⛰️

I didn’t know Paul Dooley was still alive..

The Paul Dooley video you guys included was amazing. I love that you guys are able to include things like that. As for the episode, I love it, but that's due to a ton of nostalgia from having taped it on VHS when I was 12 and watching it hundreds of times.

Really puzzled by the comments... you'd think the guys hate DS9. Seems to me they're enjoying it a lot, on the whole? But if they only give an episode you love an A, the sky is falling I guess? For what it's worth, back when these seasons were airing, I would 100% have said that I liked Voyager better than DS9. Now, knowing the full run of both series, DS9 is my second favorite series just behind TNG. But outside a few idiosyncratic opinions (loving "Meridian", hating "Past Tense"), their opinions seem pretty reasonable and barely out of line with popular consensus.

Alex isn’t into the show at this point in its run as much as he wishes he was, and that’s alright. It’s been almost 3 whole goddamn seasons. Count me among those with the benefit of hindsight who know that the lion will get to coming out of its cage in the next ten episodes or less. Right now, you have an amazing layup of characters and events on the chessboard. Soon it will be time to place them all into play.

I hope the takes didn't make you guys think that we view this as a favourite episode, I wouldn't put it in my top 30. But I was excited for this reaction because it has a lot of twists and those are some of the best reactions when you guys are surprised by stuff. A great two parter though and wow ds9 only gets better on a second watch for me.

I don't get the comment that The Dominion have never encroached on the Alpha Quadrant, for them to not only know but move forward the Tal Shiar/Obsidian order invasion means by definition means they have at least one or more covert operatives working in the Alpha Quadrant pulling strings at very high levels.

I think this is a good episode but was no one else disappointed that after years and years of building up both the tal'shiar and the obsidian order they are both just completely tossed aside without ever getting to realise their story potential? Also bit convenient for the Defiant to be able to show up to a 150 vs 20 starship battle and just completely get away with it but i'll let it slide On the being worried about DS9 Alex, i'm kind of a hater (as much as one can be a hater of something they've seen through multiple times...) in that I genuinely do not get the sometimes absurd amount of hype DS9 gets compared to the other shows and personally it's my least favourite of classic era trek but even I will still say there are absolutely some episodes ahead that you will love, there's one i'm specifically thinking of near the start of season 4 that is easily one of the best episodes of trek ever produced and it has nothing to do with the dominion or cardassians or anything like that and I will be really surprised if that one doesn't do it for you. (I agree with you about star trek 2 and 6 and past tense btw). The best is yet to come, and the worst too is yet to come

I really wouldn't worry about what to expect going forwards. From my opinion (and sketchy memory), TNG, DS9 and Voyager may have different tones but the overall quality is much of the same. You'll have episodes you love and some you hate, but overall this era of Trek as a whole is very good from a creative and technical standpoint. I would try to ignore the generalisations on where series 'get good', the hate for specific episodes, or even setting an opinion on what staff have been involved in. IMO, this two-parter is very good but pales in comparison to some of the stuff to come, and DS9 is not even my favourite.

Did Josh & Alex say what I think they said at the very end? How did that happen? I feel so deflated iykyk

Fun Fact: Paul Dooley was born Paul Brown in Parkersburg, West Virginia.

Ok if it’s at all comforting to Alex/Josh - I think this two parter is kind of forgettable in this season and in the show as a whole. I love that others are excited because it makes me enjoy looking at it more closely to understand why, but if I were describing 20 great episodes from DS9, this wouldn’t have even crossed my mind.

I appreciate that Alex places Eddington’s crime of sabotaging the ship on the same level as causing Chief an extra 10 hours of work. May he forever eat leaning over the replicator, alone and wishing he could be someone’s lunch buddy.

Fearing more Emergence and Masks is truly wild. Last year the fear was that every episode from here on out would be a Jem Hedar blast em up, and yet here we are. I thought both these episodes were a huge rollercoaster, but to each their own. BTW I'm not sure Whispers is even a top 30 episode.

Eddington is how you deal with an "obvious" mystery, reveal it quickly since it's not worthy of a main plot, not the stupid garbage way Voyager did with "State of Flux ", wasting an entire episode of the dumbest mystery ever created.

you know, sometimes it's very difficult to have a clear opinion to an episode, especially for DS9, since, as you statet, most of us know the whole context and maybe have an different view for certain episodes. I always try to remember how I felt back in the 90s about the episode and in this case, I was quite sure that its a S and the viewer would be blown away by the episodes and the pacing and the interregation scene. BUT: nope, on rewatch I would give it a B or A, because everything I remembered is somehow distored. The interregation scene is good, but way shorter than I rembered, the special effects were mindblowing in the 90s but there are youtube channels with longer and better effects... Nervertheless, what surprised me and I really liked were Sisko and Edington scenes, The Bashir and O'Brian lunch, the way Odo talked in every scene. The only thing that really remaind awesome is the fact, that the dominion is one step ahead of everyone else

This is a case where our expectation setting and pre-glazing of DS9 has done serious damage to at least how Alex views the show. We’ve failed the Target Audience. Sentence: 10 years in a Cardassian labor camp for all of us. (At least we’ll get to hang out with Thomas Riker.) “Now, let me tell you, Season 4 is really where DS9…” *5 more years added to our sentence*

It's tough for me to watch this struggle with what DS9 is and where it's going, because I'm in a position to know that a lot of your concerns will get addressed. But I also know that you have to take the same journey we all did in the '90s, going from the place of "DS9 is fine when TNG and Voyager aren't on" to seeing what the show ultimately becomes. I say this part to show respect to you both as reactors/critics: I subscribe to your channel because I really appreciate that you engage with the material and think critically about it, especially because too many episodes have solidified over the years into "this is a Good One" or "this is a Bad One." But I've loved this show for three decades and I'll continue to love it whether you agree or not. So keep speaking your minds!

I do like this episode for the way it at least tries to pay off the first half. Improbable Cause is one part chasing a mystery and one part a verbal duel between the spy and the investigator as they try to size each other up and defend themselves from the other's conjectures. This episode essentially takes that sparring and drives it to the extreme where we see both characters pushed to their limits and beyond and gaining something like respect after seeing who they really are. Improbable asked if Garek had any honor and what merit there was in Shakespearean tragedy. This episode showed us Garek has a depth of honor not even he was aware of and leaves with the realization of his own hubris ("the fault is not in the star, dear Tain, but within ourselves"- still love that line in particular). Odo being lonely for his people isn't the most profound revelation but Rene plays it well and it does the job of tying his turmoil into Garek's own struggle. The weakest part of the episode is probably the Defiant sabotage, although I appreciate the reminder that Eddington exists and it gives something for the rest of the cast to do other than twiddle their thumbs waiting to be the calvary arriving. I have other comments but they should wait for a later time- I don't think its much of a spoiler to say the events of this two parter will have repercussions that are worthy of discussion in future episodes.

The reason all the ships decloak is so they don't all run into each other trying to go trough the wormhole.

Random BS. This was the first Star Trek 2-Parter with different episode titles. There was a filmed Quark scene cut for time. Michael Pillers "Creative Consultant" credit was about a paycheck, not any actual involvement in writing the show. This credit was added as Ira Steven Behr had "Executive Producer" status as of this episode. I pronounced it incorrectly for two decades. It is Sal-O-May Jens.

I love these two episodes a lot but don't go as crazy for them like some others. To me, all the Dominion episodes kinda blend into one another. I love the Dominion story, but as a whole, not usually the individual episodes. My favourite episodes in DS9 are mostly standalone ones.

Loved it, loved it, loved it. The parallels between Odo and Garak. Their interactions were turned up to 11 after the last episode. Loved the camera work here too - the comment about there being a lot of upshots I put down to the fact Colonel Lovak was a relatively short actor, and they needed to convey his seniority in some other way.

Something I only picked up on rewatches of this episode was the horrified indignance of Lovok when they mention the stasis device. At first he just appears to be upset that the Cardassians were keeping technology from the Romulans on this mission, but I actually think he lets the mask slip just a bit there as he's horrified by the implications of such a technology. My only quibble with this episode in a plothole sense is that Lovok really should've informed the fleet not to fire on the runabout. There is no reason for him to allow their escape just to let them get blown up, except for the fact that the Defiant and its crew needed something to do this episode. Otherwise a fantastic ep, and I think one that really shows they've finally figured out what kind of show they want DS9 to be.

You guys are going to be pleasantly surprised. Everything Alex is worried about will not come to pass. I predict you will BOTH enjoy DS9's back half MORE than the rest of Voyager. I would bet 5 bars of gold pressed latinum.

Alex, struggling with optimism, somehow forgetting Nog and Dukat are still out there. Possibly with more content... Rest easy guys. When you had regular jobs, did you give 100% every day? I fuggin hope not. But the days you found that 110%, even if it was out of spite, made the difference. Trek's gonna do that for you.

Had to show my brother your video of Paul Dooley he thought he was dead. So did I for that matter. Ninety-eight is an impressive age.

Listening to the Discussion afterwards, I wanted to add: Alex, don't worry man. It's like what Josh said, it's a TV show. Ignore the hype and the haters equally. Just watch it, enjoy it or don't. Any reaction counts. You're not here for the confirmation bias of old fans like myself. If you don't like it, then hopefully Josh does. And either way, you might find Voyager your personal fave between the two. However, I firmly believe you will find more 'Heart of Stone' and 'Bonding' in DS9 to come. But there will also be a different kind of meal for the rest of us as well. A lot of meat on that bone. I've fallen into a food analogy. Maybe I'm hungry?

The Romulans are always playing 3-dimensional chess while most of their enemies are playing checkers. You're thinking like a Romulan, Alex. That thought about Tain occurred to me, too.

Thoughts longer then the actual episode? Hell yeah, baby!

It took 90 minutes-to-2 hours to apply the Spock make-up to Leonard Nimoy in TOS days. I think that decreased by the time they got to the movies because of the expertise of that type of make-up by then.

The "Romulan" changeling's actor reminds me so much of Dustin Hoffman. Maybe it's just me~

Your conversation of if anyone else on the station could be a changeling took me back to Ronald Moore's Battlestar Galatica series with the cylons being so human, anyone could be one. He seems to like instilling a paranoia element into his shows, similar to John Carpenter's The Thing.

I won't get to watch all of this reaction until tonight. I'm a bit worried my take might have helped lead to an hour of Ira discourse. I'm sorry. 😅

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but the wrestling analogy works far better than y'all may realize: TOS/Golden Era: Many of the most iconic moments here, with some larger-than-life characters penetrating pop culture, but also glaringly showing its age/product of its time too TNG/Attitude Era: Possibly even more more successful than the previous era, with characters even more iconic, though also weighed down by dated aspects DS9&VOY/Ruthless Aggression: Brand split, obviously! Also, hardcore fans of this era claim its the best for reasons that often elude general fans. /what does that make ENT, then? Oh dear... //New Generation? Oh, that's The Animated Series, clearly!

This isn't my favorite episode - there are plenty in seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7 that I think are better overall, but in my opinion it is pretty close to flawless. Great character work with Garak and Odo, a plot that would work in a movie with enough intrigue between Tain and the reveal of the Changeling who posed as the Romulan commander, and what I believe is the biggest battle scene Trek had seen up to that point in the sheer number of ships firing at each other. The threat of the Dominion has definitely escalated over what it was before. The Defiant did destroy a Jem Hadar fighter in The Search, but it took a billion shots unshielded before it started fighting back then. Now we get to see it fight without taking Wrath of Khan levels of opening damage first, and its pulse phaser canons tear through Jem Hadar fighters like tissue paper.

A Deep Lore mythology episode of DS9 with some of that classic tight Ronald Moore writing. Moves the characters along, moves the world-building along, ties up old plotlines and introduces newer ones, some action pop, some deep-cut character analysis, and the nice swerve at the end, settling on that amazing mirror shot for the end. Couldn't ask for a better episode in my opinion.

It is so satisfying to see the second half of a Star Trek two-parter really spike the ball. It's not a perfect episode, but I never would have guessed the second part wasn't even supposed to exist. The super-cool ship action is neat (IIRC, that final shot with the Defiant and the Jem'Hadar ships — all physical models — took days to film), but the meat of this is Garak and Odo, their similarities and their differences. After Garak betrays everyone at the first opportunity, to have him stand right there and watch as Odo refuses to do that — goosebumps. Rene Auberjonois and Andrew Robinson sell every scene they're in.

i didnt know i needed the nagus in this episode before today

TV budget wouldn't allow it obviously, but even with movies, you'd never see Trek go full Wars with massive fleet engagements, usually sticking to 1v1 ship battles. So when you hear a 20 ship fleet is decloaking, and actually *see* that, it's one of the damndest thing you've ever seen in Trek. Then to turn that into a mere fraction with a 150 ship counter-attack...! Well, at least we got to see some of that on the TV budget. ;)

It's unfortunate that the excitement of your viewers makes you worried about the show. Maybe we should collectively stop hyping the series to make it easier for you... 🤔However, I think no matter how you feel about the show now, unless you have a heart of stone, you'll get some more episodes that make you feel something in the future for sure.

It is always weird seeing someone decide to actively have a bad time

I can't believe you guessed the premise of the next show! Star Trek: Survivor. Spoilers guys, jeez...

I think what you guys said on the previous episode that we 9'ners have the benefit of hind-sight, having seen all of the series (probably more than a few times), so we have these episodes which, when looking back are key, or at least important, moments in the overall narrative of the show. I think this is a great two parter and I hope you enjoyed it, overall. Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Additional: great video from Paul Dooley. Lovely to see that he's still with us and still working :)

Great reaction 👏🏿 can't wait to see yall reaction to how dark & realistic this series is gonna get 😮‍💨

Def can't wait for ep 22&23 ☺️

Great grid changes

Further thought this is my fave two part story of ds9 so far and that’s all down to the character work for Garak and Odo

We are being spoiled this week, fantastic thumbnail too 😂

Credit to RDM for writing this in just a few weeks - In another universe this episode doesn’t exist and Garak and Odo get out of the warbird by blackmailing Tain…